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View Full Version : Are Outriders Useful? If so, how?



Grey Seer Skretch
08-05-2008, 07:48
Hello to you all my fine folk-people-type-things!

Simple question; my Em,pire army is coming along, but i have a few points to spare and am looking at taking 5 outriders including a champion with hochland longrifle. Purely in isolation, and without worrying about what else i'm using, do people think this unit would be any use? What do people use outriders for, them being fast cavalry but having move or fire weapons and all? And does anyone use barding on them? At the moment im thinking of using them to counteract other people's fast cavalry, light flankers and warmachine crews. How are they for that kind of role? All contributions much appreciated!

Draconian77
08-05-2008, 08:13
I think the main advantge of the Outriders would be their movement value so I would not add barding. Really Outriders are great against some armies and bad against others IME.

I don't recomend giving the Champion the Hochland, the 3 Bs5 shots are quite good enough.

stampy
08-05-2008, 08:15
Fast Cavalry, kicking out 15 shots at 24 inch range in all directions

Admiral Samuel Eden
08-05-2008, 08:19
Is not as good as Pistoleers who can fire on the move with only 5 less shots without upgraded equipment. Pistoleers are cheaper, more maneuverable and quite frankly better IMO. Though the range is nice. Why get weapons that are move or shoot on a maneuverable unit? I can see outriders as useful but IMO they are out shined by their trainees.

stampy
08-05-2008, 08:23
Whole poitn of outriders being fast cavalry is that they don't need to move. Can shoot in 360 arc

Da Black Gobbo
08-05-2008, 08:29
I think they are worth it, 15 str 4 armour piercing shots at bs4 and 5 are worth it, shot against a unit of Hoeth's panzees and laugh when they die 15 shots--)8 hits (assuming short range)--)5 wounds--)5 dead elves.

Greystone
08-05-2008, 08:34
I know that they are fast cav, but there is no need to move them. Think of them as a gunline. They make a great guard for your war machines, with 360 los they can defend from oncoming threats and ones from the rear. Their Bs4 shots at S4 go a long way to keep most things off your big guns. The only problem is the taking up of a special slot, as I see it.

stampy
08-05-2008, 08:44
They are even better protecting flanks; although they loose against salamanders lol

Grey Seer Skretch
08-05-2008, 09:38
Had forgotten the 360 degree los thing, thats awesome :) I'm going to be running 5 of them and 6 pistoliers in the same force, thanks for the advice peoples! Had to include some after reading an old WD battle report, Empire vs Chaos Dwarves, where the Empire force was all cav and 5 outriders sat back and chewed up a whole unit of Hobgob wolf riders in a single volley (statistically not that impressive I know, but so very hollywood...)

Urgat
08-05-2008, 10:20
You can also move them in a position where they're annoying... first turn, throw them in the middle of the difficult terrain, there (well, don't do that against shooty armies, of course). Then shoot from their, knowing nobody will be able to reach them. If you played ogre leadbelchers (which is the same, but the other way around: cannot move once they've shot, for one turn), you'd get used to that and, imho, outriders sound very cool. That said, pistoliers are very nasty too, they got an awful ot of shots...

Mercules
08-05-2008, 11:07
Had forgotten the 360 degree los thing, thats awesome :) I'm going to be running 5 of them and 6 pistoliers in the same force, thanks for the advice peoples! Had to include some after reading an old WD battle report, Empire vs Chaos Dwarves, where the Empire force was all cav and 5 outriders sat back and chewed up a whole unit of Hobgob wolf riders in a single volley (statistically not that impressive I know, but so very hollywood...)

Here is something to know about that Fast Cav 360 deg. LoS. They can see 360 but because they are still in a formation they still block LoS for each other. This means that if you have them in a line like this:

OOOOO

Only 1 model can shoot when you are shooting at your flanks.

I think they would be best as a mobile Gunline. They can't move and shoot, but they can move to a good location to setup yet another field of fire. Also, they can flee and rally easily and since they pump out shots they are definitely a threat which makes them great bait that is likely to get away.

superduperkoopatrooper
08-05-2008, 11:35
In response to the 360 line of sight comment above, for all intents and purposes they can shoot in all directions. Drawing a line from a model that isn't on the end across the others gives you a 180 degree LOS to the front and 180 degrees LOS to the back. All you're missing out on is a 2" channel either side of the unit which only single models on smaller bases could squeeze into.

I have 5 outriders and 10 pistoliers and nearly always stick to the pistoliers for the movement potential.

With a 16" move and 8" range pistoliers can match outriders for range.

Pistoliers are cheaper and more survivable as they're more likely to move into safer positions. A lot of armies have ranged attacks that can easily damage T3 low save models and I've found my outriders have died before becoming useful.

I think the main reason to take outriders is the Bs5 champion with hochland. If you combine him with a priest to cast reroll hits and wounds or a heavens wizard with one of the reroll spells he has a decent chance to kill of at least scare the bejeezus out of wizards in units. He's also got a 36" range so can sit in relative safety from most magic missiles and such. If you go the hochland route though it's better to take a few in your army.

Keller
08-05-2008, 14:16
I've used my Outriders with great success in several games, to the point that my usual opponents dread when I field them. They are a bit tricky to use, and can be killed off easily if the oponent has the right things to do it, but they can dish out a ton of damage.

I generally field mine in units of 6, sometimes going as many as 10 in larger games. As noted above, their biggest advantage is being able keep firing withou having to turn. If you can keep them alive, they can lock down a big portion of the field.

As for the marksman, I haven't found the hochland to be a worthwhile investment. I find that the 3 shots from the handgun are much more useful than the hochland's sniping ability. Its useful for picking off champions, but I rarely find the need. Characters can usually survive the one or two shots you can get at them, while mages can be dispatched easily in close combat, especially if their retinue has been depleted from shooting. In the end, I don't bother with marksmen on my Outriders.

Malorian
08-05-2008, 14:22
I don't play empire but I have played against them many a time. The set up that gets me is barding and no champ. This way they have a 4+ save and they just sit back and shoot away.

Once you get to them so you can finally charge they just run away and deny you the victory points.

They are a great unit and I would suggest you use them.

Mercules
08-05-2008, 15:38
As for the marksman, I haven't found the hochland to be a worthwhile investment. I find that the 3 shots from the handgun are much more useful than the hochland's sniping ability. Its useful for picking off champions, but I rarely find the need. Characters can usually survive the one or two shots you can get at them, while mages can be dispatched easily in close combat, especially if their retinue has been depleted from shooting. In the end, I don't bother with marksmen on my Outriders.

What about the Grenade Launcher? Str 6 AP looks like a wonderful thing to threaten the big heavies in an army.

Eigilb
08-05-2008, 15:53
Fast Cavalry, kicking out 15 shots at 24 inch range in all directions

This makes them very usefull for protecting you warmachines against flyers or warmachine hunters and shooting things whos getting behind your battle line.

Grom Wronghand
08-05-2008, 16:30
I have an opponent who often uses outriders and engineer with grenade launcher to great effect. They can dish out a lot of hurt.

minionboy
08-05-2008, 17:19
I don't find the Grenade Launcher to be worthwhile. Figure at maximum range the grenade Launcher has a 46% chance of wounding a model with T3 or 4 and a 2+ save (most heavy cavalry). The Repeater Handgun has a 50% chance to wound a T3 Heavy Cavalry, but lowers to a 37.5% for T4 Heavy Cavalry. So against most armies, the Repeater does more damage at a 8" longer range, plus has a chance to kill more than one! If you can shoot cavalry with a Grenade Launcher, you can also be charged in many cases.

Mercules
08-05-2008, 18:15
If you can shoot cavalry with a Grenade Launcher, you can also be charged in many cases.

I was thinking more To 4-5 models. Also, if you can be charged, who cares? Either flee to set them up, or stand and shoot. You have the option of using either ranged weapon.

A. 3 shots at Str 4 AP against To 4 = 1 wound on average

B. 1 shot at Str 6 AP against To 4 = .55 wounds

C. 3 shots at Str 4 AP against To 6 = .33 wounds

D. 1 shot at Str 6 AP against To 6 = .33 wounds

Add in armor though.

3+ armor, say a Treeman or Dragon or such.
C. .22
D. .33

So yes the Grenade Launcher is only good against things like Treemen, but then again we never run into those or have need of softening them up. :D

Frankly
09-05-2008, 08:58
Is not as good as Pistoleers who can fire on the move with only 5 less shots without upgraded equipment.

they're totally different units on the field to be honest, outriders are a power house in the shooting phase, and that at most are going to deploy and then maybe re-delpoy and thats it for their movement, then they're going to blast units to hell. While Pistols are going to harrass throughout the whole game.

Outriders provide you with a BS5 H.Rifle that are perfect anti-mage weapons, while the rest of the unit destroys rank and file bonuses. It one of the best shooty units in the game.

Frankly
09-05-2008, 09:07
I was thinking more To 4-5 models. Also, if you can be charged, who cares? Either flee to set them up, or stand and shoot. You have the option of using either ranged weapon.



Most likely they're not going to get charged by anything the can really hurt them. Since their mobility means they're perfectly equipped to keep out of the way.

I actually run them in a horde rank and file army, their job is to whittle rank and file bonuses so my oh so average infantry units can fight against smaller enemy units. If the Outiders get into trouble I can push up an infantry unit to block charges and outriders and sweep in behind for protection or I can move my outriders out of alot of charge arcs as well.

Keller
09-05-2008, 12:55
What about the Grenade Launcher? Str 6 AP looks like a wonderful thing to threaten the big heavies in an army.

I haven't tried my luck with the grenade launcher too much. I really dislike the shorter range, and as you point out, they are only effective against things with a much higher toughness.

I do often play against high T armies, such as Chaos Beasts loaded with Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres and the occasional Giant or Shaggoth. Maybe next time I field my Empire, I might have to try it out to see how it works. I can see some use in it, but exchanging 3 S4 shots for 1 shorter ranged S6 shot doesn't seem like the best idea, especially since it involves more points for a champion and then the weapon.

WhiteKnight
10-05-2008, 00:59
Outriders will burn up a bunch of units with their shooting. Position them on the flank, shoot a unit up for a turn, break them, and then chase after them easily.