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Armilthuan
08-05-2008, 08:59
I've recently figured that Dragons aren't the deadliest creatures. It is actually the fact that they can cause al sorts of trouble while the rest of their army tries to engage you.

So let's put up a situation. You have no meanigfull shooting and magic to take out a Dragon at range. Your units aren't always decked out on ranks and you don't have that many units.

What will you do versus a dragon, and more importantly, their army?

I was thinking of digging in. Disrupting their battle line with flyers and scouts to delay them and put all weight on the dragon once it is locked in combat.

Max zero
08-05-2008, 09:02
Eh? Do I even have an army? If so, whats in it?

Armilthuan
08-05-2008, 09:30
Sorry, should have eleborated more.

What I 'should' have said is this:

What would you do with your army wihtout magic and shooting vs a dragon.

I am curious if there are are more tactics than 'shoot 'em' and 'challenge with a champion'.

Also, what is more beneficial? Hitting the dragon or hitting the character?

Demon Druss
08-05-2008, 11:04
Very few players take Dragons but I normally just try to weaken them with magic and then just smash the dragon with a strike first hero with a great weapon eg exalted champion with the helm of many eyes and GW. Anyway your better off slaying the dragon because without his flying creature the rider is typically slow and will probably get mugged by a regiment and run down.

The Farmer
08-05-2008, 11:52
Depends, If its a dragon mage kill the mage.

Wicked_fool
08-05-2008, 11:56
Depends, If its a dragon mage kill the mage.

Yes, and if it's a prince on stardragon or a choaslord with the frenzy sword on chaos dragon your F*CKED

Spirit
08-05-2008, 11:58
To be honest, not many armies (bar korne) will have "no meaningfull magic or shooting"

Each army deals with dragons dependant on their strengths.

Vampires use magic to a. pin it down or b.get into it with something good.

Dwarves shoot it, period.

If you dont have any shooting or magic, the dragon will simply charge things it KNOWS it can kill in one turn to cause panic. If you try to disrupt his army and focus on the dragon, then he will fly the dragon away snd not let you.

In my opinion, you need magic and/or shooting to deal with a dragon effectively. This is because of 2 things. 1, you cannot tool every one of your units up to hold against a dragon and 2, you cannot pick what the dragon engages.

Thus, whatever "non magic and shooting" conclusion you come up with, the dragon can avoid.

Armilthuan
08-05-2008, 11:59
And what would you do about a Star Dragon or Chaos Dragon?

broodjeork
08-05-2008, 12:07
well if you dont have any shooting or magic and that dragon is pissing you of, then just ignore it.

with few and hardhitting units you should spread your army, the drahon is only one model and cant keep your entire army busy. also a dragon is expensive, wich means his main force is smaller then yours givving u an edge if the forces go head to head.

Selsaral
08-05-2008, 14:00
I always have several units of skirmishers on defense, ready to charge and try to pin down a dragon if it lands near me. Dryads or beast herds are good at this. They can often hold a turn to bring more dangerous units onto it, but even if not every turn it's pinned by a cheap skirmisher unit the better. You need these skirmisher units all over your back line so the dragon cannot land beside a unit and breath/terror it.

ReveredChaplainDrake
08-05-2008, 14:35
If you can take Lore of Beasts and get something like Beast Cowers, you're in pretty good shape if you can get it off, which is pretty easy becasue Dragon armies usually don't have squat for casters. (You can also use this for leverage if you have other casters with good Magic Missiles.) Beasts also has the powerful Hunter's Spear spell, as well as Bear's Anger, both of which can be used to take out Dragons. (Oh how I love using Bear's Anger on an Oldblood... 9 attacks at Str 7, behind T6... :evilgrin:) Death's Steal Soul can also be useful against Dragons as it auto-wounds and denies Armor Saves, the two biggest problems with Dragons. Of course, getting that close with a Wizard really annunciates the next two biggest problems with a Dragon: it's hard to flee from a Flyer that charges you, and it causes Terror.

There's a common thought that Lore of Metal will work on a Dragon, but Spirit of the Forge is just angry pattering against the likes of T7 Stardragons. (Unless, of course, some of those hits nail the Prince on top of the Dragon, who usually has low-toughness and a good save.) Transmutation of Lead can sometimes be effective against bog standard Dragons (like Dark Elf ones), but most units can't scratch a Star Dragon in CC anyway.

Urgat
08-05-2008, 14:46
Her... I take the collar of Zorga on the now (in)famous goblin character killer. That should do it.

soots
09-05-2008, 02:28
Then the most important phase for you becomes movement. Make sure everyones supporting everyone especially the cheap units he can pick off!

Gerrok
09-05-2008, 02:45
A beast of chaos character can use "Rune of the True Beast" which elimanates the dragon from the equation. Then it becomes a question of if your character can kill the rider. If you challenge the character (and he can't refuse) then you should have outnumber, 2 ranks and a standard. All you have to do is pass your terror check (which is difficult in BoC armies, even with characters).

Oddly enough this also works against greater daemons from what I understand. Even better, against them they automatically lose by 4 before you even swing, since he can't swing back, unless I'm missing something.

For as horrible as the Beast of Chaos codex is, it's actually entertaining that the superthugs of the fantasy world fall to them.

soulstealer666
09-05-2008, 07:09
Dwarves shoot it, period.

i got my vampire dragon pwnd by a dawf lord :cries: it was the fast stuny army of doom

i ran through his bsb unit and got stuck on my zombies so i though sure i can take a dawf lord no sweat how hard can they be :wtf: how wrong was i

Mike KK
09-05-2008, 07:15
carnesaur/ giant with their d3/d6 wounds on large targets

Armilthuan
09-05-2008, 08:14
Thanks for the replies all.

Of course, I am no stupid enough to get into a fight with a dragon without 2 RBT backing me up.

But I have found outthat two RBT is not enough to leave a mark (or it might be dealing with another threat, Stank anyone?). But the point is still, a dragon can munch up smaller unit while the rest of my army is twiddling their thumbs or it engages one of my blocks when the rest of his amry is near, ready to charge me next turn.

That's why I asked what you would do without shooting.

Is it best to turn myself into a castle formation?

Leogun_91
09-05-2008, 08:40
Be fast enough to engage it, flyers and high M cavalry are ideal for this, the number one dragonkiller however is: Brettonian Lord, royal pegasus, the armour that makes you immune to flaming attacks, the virtue that gives you killing blow against large targets. Then there is the empire variant...imperial pegasus, the speculum, the wyrmslayer sword (I think thatīs the name but it is the one that ignore scaly skin). For dwarfs that doesnīt like to shoot it MR of Challenge gives it two options, 1)Die without a fight 2) Fight the character I tooled out to kill you.

][nquist0r
10-05-2008, 01:06
I Pray that the dragon will stick long enough in a unit that I can smash it with chariots the next turn... Facing dragons with my army is kinda amusing (Doombull) I try to keep my 4 chariots threatening every direction
....C
.C
.........C
......C
Something like that.

Thomus Darkblade
10-05-2008, 02:17
What would you do with your army wihtout magic and shooting vs a dragon?


If you're fielding an army without magic or shooting it's a smart idea to A- Agree with your opponent to play "low fantasy" To reduce the chance you'll run into a dragon or greater demon or 500+ point character of any variety.



I am curious if there are are more tactics than 'shoot 'em' and 'challenge with a champion'.


If you are in a tournament environment, where you'll never quite know if a dragon will show up. You should make sure that your army has a way of dealing with a large armored terror causer. Normally the easiest way to do this is to charge it with a fast and heavy unit, fully equipped with a lord and a no armor saves sword, a weapon with killing blow or at least a strength enhancing weapon.

If your army lacks a character capable of killing a dragonlord by himself, or with the help of his retinue, you should invest in some war machines or magic casters, and a tarpit unit or two. then at least you can hope to hurt the dragon and finish it off with something moderately nasty. Alternatively you can try to pin it in place for long enough to either ignore it, or bring something powerful to bear on it.

Ideally an army should have all of these things, and it is especially important for armies that chose to ignore one or two phases of the game to be able to dictate combat and movement


Also, what is more beneficial? Hitting the dragon or hitting the character?

Depends, in most cases the dragon is a bigger threat, so if you can take it out first, it's wise to do so, but if you're in combat and you can potentially kill the lord, but cannot kill the dragon, do it. Dragon's have good enough leadership to reliably pass their monster reaction test, but if they are forced to take a break test, they will fail more than 40% of the time.