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PeG
08-05-2008, 15:39
I normally play VC and a friend of mine who is playing empire is complaining that it is not possible for him to beat them. So we agreed to swap armies for at least one maybe a few games. Therefore I now need to beat VC with Empire. It does not need to be a very fun game but I need to win. The bigger win the better. It is all about list tailoring and crushing the enemy (ie all the things I normally try to avoid).

We will play 2k or possibly 2250. His list is likely to include a magic Lord with the helm, one combat vampire, BSB, drakenhof banner. He will probably take the ability that allows him to raise either creatures of the night (ie bats) or one ghouls above starting level.

I would like your advise on a few things that I am thinking about taking as well as if you have any other pointers. Please remember that I have never played empire before even if I have played against them.

These are the things I have considered taking

Stank (1 or possibly 2) if correctly used with some support I think these will cause trouble for the VC. THis is provided I dont get stuck in a zombie horde but it should be hard to get two stanks stuck in zombies.

A couple of spell destruction crolls. If I bring two I have 75% probability of stopping his magic lord from spamming IoN. Stops me from bringing other fun stuff though.

Walter, some nice bound spells especially against undead. Not sure about this one actually since VC has lots of things that can hurt it such as grave guards with great weapons and the helm nearby.

Rifles that can pick single characters in a unit to shoot at. The idea being either to kill his hero vampires or at least damaging his vampires and force him to use IoN on them instead of raising new units

Otherwise a combo of armoured infantry with some fire support and some cav units for flank/rear charges


Any thoughts or other suggestions?

Malorian
08-05-2008, 15:49
Personally I would show him what happens if you lose the general. Take a lord on a griffin and sword of fate and send him after the vampire lord.

Take several motors to blow apart those big units.

I wouldn't bother using much other shooting and I wouldn't bother going magic heavy either. Just take lots of troops and show him what detachments can do. (20-25 sowedsmen and 2 detachments of 10 halbrediers). Giffin banner is also a must.

Stanks do great as well and you can use the cannon to try and pick off a character, or destroy the black coach if he takes one.

Eigilb
08-05-2008, 15:50
All this sounds like a bad idear to me if you intend to stay friends!

Why not go with balanced armies instead of maxin' out the cheese, it sounds like you have a problem with losing to me...

Remeber the most important rule - especially when playing friends...

Malorian
08-05-2008, 15:56
All this sounds like a bad idear to me if you intend to stay friends!

Why not go with balanced armies instead of maxin' out the cheese, it sounds like you have a problem with losing to me...

Remeber the most important rule - especially when playing friends...

I disagree. I HATE it when people say you won because of the army you play.

Recently I've been winning every game with my vampire counts and everyone in the group was getting mad at me and blamed it on the army. (Keep in mind I win pretty much all the time with other armies too)

One of them made a cheese empire list to beat me and after I beat him the first time I offered that we switch armies. He turned me down but wanted a rematch and I just beat him again.

Now the idea of vampires are cheese is even bigger and I basically can't use my brand new army any more. Had we switch armies on the other hand, I would have easily won using his empire and it would be clear that it had nothing to do with the army and all to do with the player.

I think PeG should go out there and absolutely SMASH the vampire army as much as he can, as being able to play his army without insult is on the line.

Eigilb
08-05-2008, 16:03
I disagree. I HATE it when people say you won because of the army you play.

...

I think PeG should go out there and absolutely SMASH the vampire army as much as he can, as being able to play his army without insult is on the line.


Absolutely - he should. But i think he should smash them with balanced empire army and not 2 stanks and walter. I think they both should play with balanced armies so it comes down to good generalship & tactics, and not who was able to make the most cheese build.

Malorian
08-05-2008, 16:04
Or better yet, just play and switch.

Latro
08-05-2008, 16:09
You can usually make a bigger impression by winning without the need for taking one of the infamous WAAC armies out there ... and the battles are more enjoyable (for both) as well.

Really good players should be able to get good results with any army they play.


:cool:

Eigilb
08-05-2008, 16:11
Or better yet, just play and switch.

True - Clearly the best solution.

But it didn't sound like that was the OP's intention (or what they agreed)

Andrew Luke
08-05-2008, 16:21
Just take massive blocks of troops and maybe some war priests and flaggellants. As long as you outnumber him you have a pretty good chance of not running away, and your detachments can then hit the flanks and just grind him down. It doesn't matter how badass his vamps are if they are losing on combat res, they crumble and die... Also, remember that he CANT FLEE. THis is such a huge disadvantage that a lot of players fail to capitalize on (I bet its one of the reasons you beat him so easily.) That means that if you take something hard and fast, Like a griffin or knights, he can't do **** to stop them beside a zombie redirect, which you can proceed to walk around or shoot off the table. Also outriders can be great because nothing he has can catch them, and they can weaken units and turn combats with a rear charge.

Max zero
08-05-2008, 16:25
I normally play VC and a friend of mine who is playing empire is complaining that it is not possible for him to beat them. So we agreed to swap armies for at least one maybe a few games. Therefore I now need to beat VC with Empire. It does not need to be a very fun game but I need to win. The bigger win the better. It is all about list tailoring and crushing the enemy (ie all the things I normally try to avoid).

We will play 2k or possibly 2250. His list is likely to include a magic Lord with the helm, one combat vampire, BSB, drakenhof banner. He will probably take the ability that allows him to raise either creatures of the night (ie bats) or one ghouls above starting level.

I would like your advise on a few things that I am thinking about taking as well as if you have any other pointers. Please remember that I have never played empire before even if I have played against them.

These are the things I have considered taking

Stank (1 or possibly 2) if correctly used with some support I think these will cause trouble for the VC. THis is provided I dont get stuck in a zombie horde but it should be hard to get two stanks stuck in zombies.

A couple of spell destruction crolls. If I bring two I have 75% probability of stopping his magic lord from spamming IoN. Stops me from bringing other fun stuff though.

Walter, some nice bound spells especially against undead. Not sure about this one actually since VC has lots of things that can hurt it such as grave guards with great weapons and the helm nearby.

Rifles that can pick single characters in a unit to shoot at. The idea being either to kill his hero vampires or at least damaging his vampires and force him to use IoN on them instead of raising new units

Otherwise a combo of armoured infantry with some fire support and some cav units for flank/rear charges


Any thoughts or other suggestions?

All good. While you don't need to focus on magic you can focus on magic defence. Get lots of dispel dice and a Staff of Sorcery (stop 1 dice spam). Grab some Warrior Priests. Not only are they very strong versus undead but also lets you grab some Flagellants as troops. Do so, and use it to tarpit his uber Grave Guard unit.

Suggestion:

Arch Lector on Altar
Warrior Priests
Key items: Icon of Magnus, Casket of Sorcery, Seal of Destruction, Staff of Sorcery.

Shut down his magic and destroy his key spells of IoN and VHD.

Big Flagellant unit
Big Swordsmen units (hardest core to kill) with FC (Priests go in here)
Min sized Handgunner units with Hochland Rifles
Key items: Griffen Standard, Imperial Banner (if you can fit it in).

Get super high static CR plus minimize his fear.

One unit of Pistolers
Great Cannons

Use Pistolers to march block and shoot Dire Wolves. Use Cannons to snipe his general even if he is in a unit (he will fail LOS eventually) or to kill Coaches/Knights.

2 Steam Tanks

Fairly obvious. Use them to Snipe the general too.

If you have any spare points get more min sized Handgunner units with Hochlands.

Snipe the general with cannons and Hochland, then any other vampires. Even if he is making his LOS! rolls he is losing troops in his bodyguard unit. Once they get below 5 no more LOS!...

As a VC player nothing causes me more concern then Seal of Destruction or Casket. Losing IoN or VHD really, really hurts.

minionboy
08-05-2008, 17:21
I'd say Arch Lector leading the army on a War Altar, or even Volkmar if you want to use special characters.

One more Warrior Priest from Heroes, then 2 mages with Lore of Light or Lore of Fire. Be sure to absorb as many dispel dice as you can with the 2 mages before you use the bound spells on your Warrior Priests.

Other than that, use units of spearmen with small detachments (5-10) of swordsmen to negate rank bonuses with counter charges. No rank bonus = 3 more crumble.

Gaius Marius
08-05-2008, 19:08
Forget the 2 steam tanks, and get two units of Knights. Just basic 23 pt knights, and put a Warrior priest mounted in the unit, 8 knights, 6 models wide with the extra guys for casualties is good. The swordsmen Unit is a good idea, but the warrior priest is sort of wasted with them, he makes them hate, but they only hit at strength 3, whereas he can make the cavalry hate (at strength 5) and, if the prayers work, can make them unbreakable too. So change your swordsman to just a simple block, with full command of about 25 guys, give them a 10 man detachment of swordsmen. Now take 2 of those blocks, and deploy them on each side of your Arch lictor who is mounted on the Altar, right in the middle of the table. For your 4th Character a light wizard level 2, with either a staff of sorcery or a rod of power. The flagellants and 2 knights units can now deploy on the flanks depending on terrain, warmachins are not needed except for a cannon, (if you were making a take on all comers list I would take a couple diferent machines, but you are not.

Malorian
08-05-2008, 19:24
I don't understand why people are saying to go magic heavy. Especialy in order to be offensive.

Between balefire and all the dispel dice he will have from all his spell casters I wouldn't even bother trying to get a spell off. He'll just let the silly priest spells go through (he can alsways dispel the important ones on his turn) and then stop the rest.

So forget the war alter. It looks good on paper but your opponent will never let it go though. For the same points you can have a great character hunter on a griffin.

minionboy
08-05-2008, 20:29
Using at least a bit of offensive magic can lead to some sneaky tricks. If you're sure your opponent has used up their dispel scrolls and is low on dispel dice, having a Ring of Volans with Cleansing Flare stored inside can be a devastating hit to the enemy.

If you think your opponents magic is overwhelming, you can still go for Warrior Priests. They add Hatred to the unit you're with as well as give you some dispel dice, plus the Hero level ones aren't much worse in combat than a Captain anyhow.

Also, if you want to be a real jerk and the opponent is using a super summoning character, a Seal of Destruction used on Invocation of Nehek has a 50% chance of ruining their day. Just so you know though, you can only have one Seal of Destruction, it is not a scroll.

Milney
08-05-2008, 20:33
I'd say a few key characters would be;

Warrior Priest, ideally geared with Icon of Magnus and Armour of Meteoric Iron for a resiliest anti-fear tool (not to mention free dispel dice).

Wizard, Rod of Power. That's it. No other upgrades. 95pts for potentially 4 dispel dice? Yes please!

For the other two character slots? Personal preferance really, I'd take an Arch Lector (geared for 'whoring' challenges - Horstmann's/Gorgon) and a Captain BSB.

Other possibilities are a Templar Grand Master (ItP Knights, handy) and another mage with the new cheapy staff of sorcery (+1 dispel nice when combined with the extra dispel dice from Rod of power).

As for Units? Swordsmen and detatchments all the way... and flagellants!

I've also always wanted to try a whole load of Mortars, Helstorm's and Pigeon bombs against a VC player, just to see how many zombies/skellies you could obliterate on a good turn xD

Ofc, you'd then get floored by the tough stuff, but dumping 6 5" templates, and (potentially) 4 more 3" templates on someone a turn is enough to make some people cringe - even if they all then proceed to missfire and blow yourself up ;) :P

Malorian
08-05-2008, 20:35
Also, if you want to be a real jerk and the opponent is using a super summoning character, a Seal of Destruction used on Invocation of Nehek has a 50% chance of ruining their day.

I also don't know about this either. If they are one of those risky players that only start with units 10 strong than yes, but most players have units of 15 to be safe.

In my two game against empire that 50% trick worked both times and all it did was turn my IoN spammer into a vanhels/gaze of gaze spammer (yes I know gaze can only be cast once). Mean while the other vampires still have all their dice to keep the unit at full strength.

Darktheos
08-05-2008, 20:37
If you use Mages take Lore of Light, does extra damagt to Undead models IIRC the spells become str6. Really where to start would be with what models you have to use.

minionboy
08-05-2008, 20:43
I just thought of an idea, but it depends on how much you value your friendship... A Wizard Lord with the Sword of Fate and Von Horstmann's on a Pegasus is probably the biggest jerk move you could do. Oh oh, and the White Cloak too, gives you a ward and if they're silly enough to use the Balefire Spike, you'll be loling all day with a 2+ ward against that 1 str 3 attack of theirs.

Aside from that... Small units of 10 handgunners with a champ with long rifle, 4 cannons and 2 Helstorm rockets. Have fun sniping that general!

Malorian
08-05-2008, 20:49
I just thought of an idea, but it depends on how much you value your friendship... A Wizard Lord with the Sword of Fate and Von Horstmann's on a Pegasus is probably the biggest jerk move you could do. Oh oh, and the White Cloak too, gives you a ward and if they're silly enough to use the Balefire Spike, you'll be loling all day with a 2+ ward against that 1 str 3 attack of theirs.

Only thing is that you need to take a fear test. The griffin fixes that and does more damage in combat ;)

Spirit
08-05-2008, 21:15
I just thought of an idea, but it depends on how much you value your friendship... A Wizard Lord with the Sword of Fate and Von Horstmann's on a Pegasus is probably the biggest jerk move you could do. Oh oh, and the White Cloak too, gives you a ward and if they're silly enough to use the Balefire Spike, you'll be loling all day with a 2+ ward against that 1 str 3 attack of theirs.

Aside from that... Small units of 10 handgunners with a champ with long rifle, 4 cannons and 2 Helstorm rockets. Have fun sniping that general!

You think a guy who plays empire will accept a challenge with your general MAGE charging your unit? No i dont think he will.

He will accept with the champion, champion dies, undead turn, champion is raised back. Thats 2 turns of combat you have to win, when he can easily have 3 ranks, standard, warbanner, walking death and outnumber.

Thats assuming he doesnt just move the vampire into a forest the turn before you want to charge..

minionboy
08-05-2008, 21:23
Sure he would, I mean, c'mon... What are the odds that the Wizard has an ace up his sleeve.

I think the real question here is, how gullible is your friend?

Emeraldw
08-05-2008, 22:18
The only thing I have to say is be careful about those zombies. In my games those things just create a spot I can't get through. Next time I am just throwing a small group of dryads at it and be done with it. Those zombies are probably worth more than a unit of 8 dryads anyway.

I also wouldn't advise going magic on magic. He'll win and you won't have the troops to kill him in combat.

I also recommend against knights. You want units that will be good in subsequent rounds of combat and knights are good but only if they are Inner Circle in this case. Core troops and some warmachines (Hellblaster will make a nice hole) will help you win.

minionboy
08-05-2008, 22:29
I really think you have two possible approaches. Either nullify their magic, or pound through it.

Nullifying his magic is more risky, but can also make a stronger victory. Load up with an Arch lector leading (2 DD), a Warrior priest and a couple wizards. With the Rod of Power you could potentially have 10 dispel dice, don't forget about the Sigil of Destruction too. Be sure your units have melee detachments to get rid of pesky rank bonuses and they should crumble.

If you want to do the grind method, use blocks of spearmen (with 5-10 swordsmen for detachments), supported by heavy cavalry. Don't have the cavalry charge head strong into the enemy, instead, use them to help finish off units that have already taken a beating. You should also load up on 2-4 cannons/mortars as well as 2 Helblasters or Helstorms. Some magic items to use would be the Icon of Magnus, Silver Horn, and the Imperial Banner. If you want a cheaper BSB, try out the Griffon Standard, +6 for rank bonus can do a lot of crumbling.

With the second method your BSB unit should have 8 combat resolution, 9 if you outnumber, and the enemy would be missing out on their +3 putting you at a static +11-12 over them! Crumble crumble crumble...

Spirit
08-05-2008, 22:43
3 ranks+ std = 4
vs
6 ranks + std + bsb + outnumber = 9

Thats a win by 5, not by 11 or 12 lol.

But yes, combined with all your attacks itl work well, provided there isnt a wight lord facing off against it!

minionboy
08-05-2008, 22:51
3 ranks+ std = 4
vs
6 ranks + std + bsb + outnumber = 9

Thats a win by 5, not by 11 or 12 lol.

But yes, combined with all your attacks itl work well, provided there isnt a wight lord facing off against it!

I was assuming a counter charge (yay detachments!) to negate their ranks. :P

soots
09-05-2008, 02:26
Nullify/weaken his magic.
Tanks good, they have nothing besides their vamps that can hurt it really.
Some cannons/crossbowmen to take out his hammer units.
Hes ws 2, bring in cheap free company and spearmen with lots of static combat pts (ranks/banner/detachments etc).

PeG
09-05-2008, 05:44
Thanks everyone. As a comment to those that said that we should aim for a balanced game I would like to point out that I normally try to play balanced games that should be fun for both parties. The problem here is that he claims that he can not win against WC regardless if I play what i consider a balanced army. Even when I leave the helm at home, dont bring the drakenhof banner and set up an army with 8 PD he is complaingin that he cant win. The point with this game is to show him that empire can beat VC.

After that my plan is to go back to my own army (VC) and hopefully to have some nice balanced games against his empire. I actually prefer to get beaten if compared to completely crushing the enemy. If your army does badly it is a good challenge to try to improve the situation but if you are just walking over your enemy its no challenge and not very fun for anyone.

Gaius Marius
09-05-2008, 12:35
In defence of the War Altar Vs VC's... yes you may not get the magic through in the first couple of turns. But, It is unbreakable, with the Van Horstman's Speculum on the Arch Lector Vampires are hard pressed to kill him, and in a challange the Altar itself is treated as a mount. This means that your general can sit in the middle of the table sharing his leadership, tie up at least 1 unit and exposing it's flanks, and helpfully not die for basicly the whole game. If you manage to kill a spell caster or two by turns 4-6 then suddenly those prayers and the Light spell can be great fun too. The Arch Lector on War Altar is not for killing the enemy, (unless you are lucky) it is a hard to kill Tarpit, that happens to add dispel dice, leadership and mayhem to the middle of your Empire Battle line.

Keller
09-05-2008, 13:41
I've got to agree with Eigilb on this one. Don't max out the army and tailor it to crush one opponent. Play a balanced list, one that you would field agaisnt anything whenever you play Empire.

As a player of both armies, I must say, Empire should be very competitive vs VC. A combined arms approach should have little trouble dealing with anything the VC can throw at you, with the possible exception of the Blood Knights, who are just wicked.

An Arch Lector, even on foot, can help provide the nessicary LD boost, as well as some dispel dice. The added hatred and prayers are just a bonus, especially vs undead. A General could work well for a little extra killing power, and cheaper, but I still like to have the 'man of the cloth' around for many of my games.

Warrior Priests make great leaders for units. I rarely use Captains anymore because of the boosts from the Priests.

2 Mages supplement your own magic well, especially if you have taken priests. Their own casting can help you get some prayers through, and you should be able to weather the enemy magic phase without too many problems.

Having 2-5 core regiments of 25 men, backed by 10-12 man detachments will give you a lot of stability, especially when led by a character. Play your detachments well and you will hold or crush nearly any unit with no trouble.

A unit or two of gunners, crossbows, or archers, backed by 2-3 war machines will really help you out. Fire onto enemy regiments to thin them down below your unit sizes to negate the auto-break from fear. Concentrate fire on small units to wipe them out completely, or on anything that may give you a headache in combat.

About the only units I would really worry about in the VC army are the Blood Knights, Black Coach (and not much at that), Vargulfs (Again, not that devestating), and Cairn Wraiths. The Blood Knights are just power houses, but they fall pretty easily (well, as easy as most other knights) and are horribly expensive. Bait them away with some fast cav or a disposable unit if nothing else. Wraiths could be more problematic, since you may have trouble getting magic through to deal with them. They won't stand up to a ranked regiment without support or a whole-lotta luck, but they could really mess up your plans none-the-less. Just try to zap them with magic early, or engage with a regiment of infantry if you can spare it.

Spirit
09-05-2008, 14:01
Im curious, how would a war alter hold up against 1 (or 2, this is 2k) varghulfs?

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 17:16
Alter holds up rather well. The guy riding it? Not quite so well usually... Fortunately, it's "powered by Sigmar" and so sticks around.

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 17:33
As for the poster, Karl Franz on a Dragon, charge his Vamp Lord's unit, obliderate the champion twice (the ghal maraz should ensure you win combat convincingly twice) and then pound his lord into dust. Him being a large target makes it that much harder for him to direct you away.

Latro
09-05-2008, 17:47
As for the poster, Karl Franz on a Dragon, charge his Vamp Lord's unit, obliderate the champion twice (the ghal maraz should ensure you win combat convincingly twice) and then pound his lord into dust. Him being a large target makes it that much harder for him to direct you away.

VC player uses Skeleton bunker for his general ... problem solved. Believe me, any grand strategy based on "hunting down the VC general" is doomed to fail against any half-competent opponent.

Make sure you keep an eye out for your opponent making a mistake, but keep your focus on the rest of the battle ... that's where you'll win or lose.


:cool:

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 17:54
Skeleton Bunker costs a bunch of points and leaves your units out of position. Playing against an army that already has twice the number of units you do leaves your army vulnerable. Besides, Karl is a mobile ld 10, has a flaming attack that obliderates skeletons, and his opponent will be thinking defensively all game long.

He can stick in combat almost as well as a War Alter can, but actually kills things. Against VC, you should be concentrating on killing characters, not on how to hold up his units. War Alters and Steam Tanks, if they don't destroy units in the first turn, are just going to be bogged down by Zombies until the game ends.

Max zero
09-05-2008, 17:57
Another simple trick is to simply keep you Lord's unit close enough behind another unit so there is not enough room to charge into BtB contact with the Lord.

Then once he is locked into combat get your Lord to simply leave the unit and join another and let Karl Franz beat on a unit of Ghouls/Champ for the rest of the game. If your feeling confident you can even stay in the unit and keep resummoning. With Full ranks/Standard/outnumber and a champ every 2nd combat you should be easily able to keep up with the casualties.

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 18:05
Another simple trick is to simply keep you Lord's unit close enough behind another unit so there is not enough room to charge into BtB contact with the Lord.

Then once he is locked into combat get your Lord to simply leave the unit and join another and let Karl Franz beat on a unit of Ghouls/Champ for the rest of the game. If your feeling confident you can even stay in the unit and keep resummoning. With Full ranks/Standard/outnumber and a champ every 2nd combat you should be easily able to keep up with the casualties.

"Characters cannot normally join or leave units in close combat.." pg 73

And even if that is the case, why charge him? Just the threat of being able to kill your opponent's general is going to make him react to it all game long, regardless of whether or not your going to use said tactic.

VC are a largely a defensive, static Combat Resolution sort of army. I'm advocating being offensive. The best Empire armies either have the Alter or Karl. I like being able to kill things, so I'd go with Karl.

Max zero
09-05-2008, 18:18
Depends on the Lord, a caster Lord will be happy playing mexican stand off all game.

As for the defensive part....you should see my Ghoul Kin/Black Knight army. Ghoul units moving 24" by the end of the first turn.

Just about everything can do a 2nd turn charge.

Love fighting gunlines.

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 18:34
It's not an army comp I'm unfamiliar with actually. Ghouls are still relying on that static combat resolution though. They'll pick up more active combat resolution with all of those poison attacks, but its the three ranks and outnumber that'll send their opponent packing.

I don't have a healthy fear of the Vampire Counts, but I'm not an Empire player either. If his opponent stacks his units, charge another unit with a vamp in it, kill the vamp, move on. Take apart a unit of Black Knights if its available. An Empire player is not going to win the game depending on their own static combat resolution. Killing vulnerable characters and smaller vulnerable units quickly is the way to go. It decreases their opponent's magic and makes other undead units outside of the general's casting radius vulnerable.

I don't know what his opponent will bring, but I think Karl is more versatile than the Alter and more capable of picking up points.

Latro
09-05-2008, 18:35
... Just the threat of being able to kill your opponent's general is going to make him react to it all game long, regardless of whether or not your going to use said tactic.


I'd say it's pretty much the other way around. A Vampire will always be useful due to its magical powers while Karl can only be useful while he's in combat ...

- So while Karl is hanging around looking menacingly at the Vampire he's not doing much useful while the Vampire is casting away spell after spell.

- If Karl decides to do something useful and charges into combat he's either stuck in the bunker or off chasing easier prey and no longer threatening the Vampire.

By the way, this is not saying that Karl isn't worth his points (I don't even know his stats) ... but simply pointing out that hunting Vampire generals never has been and never will be a viable strategy.

The only thing coming close to that is cannon sniping and that's more relying on random factors obeying the law of averages than an actual tactic.


:cool:

Milney
09-05-2008, 18:45
Another simple trick is to simply keep you Lord's unit close enough behind another unit so there is not enough room to charge into BtB contact with the Lord.

Then once he is locked into combat get your Lord to simply leave the unit

Ah yes, the infamous "I'll just cheat" tactic. Seemingly becoming more and more prevalant as a tactic nowadays.

kylek2235
09-05-2008, 18:57
Karl is Leadership 10 and his leadership extends out 18", which is part of his appeal. At least your fast cav units and detachments can charge now. His uses extend outside of just combat and hunting the VC general is far from the only combat tactic I've stated. A dragon's breath weapon also works better than a mortar in the shooting phase. Karl is immune to psych and leadership 10, so it's not likely he's going to run from combat even if surrounded by skeletons/zombies. What does the Alter offer? Two Dispel Dice? A couple of bound spells that are situational and will never go off at the "key" moment? It's never going to kill anything.

If it's tarpit you want, you can still take a unit Flagellants and two Stanks. How much Unbreakable do you really need against an army that is 100% Unbreakable?

Irisado
09-05-2008, 20:51
I'm an Empire and Vampire Counts player, and I feel that Empire can hold their own against the lords of the Undead.

One tactic that I favour is to take a Battle Standard Bearer, give him the the Imperial Banner, and position him in a big block of infantry, Spearmen or the Greatswords, for example, then set up the rest of your infantry around this unit supported by artillery and missile troops and let the Undead come.

It's a very tough formation to break (due to the Imperial Banner, and the Battle Standard), and you can grind down units of Skeletons, and such the like.

In the meantime, go on the offensive with cavalry on the flank. A unit or two of Knights and some Pistoliers will do nicely, especially if you have the Grand Master as your army general.

Light Magic is very, very good against Vampire Counts. Contrary to popular belief, they can't dispel everything, and who says that Balefire will be the upgrade on the Corpse Cart? My Cart had the Unhold Lodestone.

Warrior Priests, and Flagellents are also vital units against the Undead.

Yes, it's easy to dispel the Prayers, but it still uses up a valuable dispel dice, and it's worth remembering that Warrior Priests pass hatred onto the unit that they are leading.

One other useful item to consider it the Orb of Thunder. This really annoys the hell out of a Vampire Counts player if he has taken any Fell Bats or other flying monsters, so it is definitely worth considering.

WillFightForFood
09-05-2008, 21:09
By the way, this is not saying that Karl isn't worth his points (I don't even know his stats) ... but simply pointing out that hunting Vampire generals never has been and never will be a viable strategy.

The only thing coming close to that is cannon sniping and that's more relying on random factors obeying the law of averages than an actual tactic.


:cool:

Hunting VC Generals was viable last edition, not so much with the way IoN works these days. People are still stuck in that mold.

Plowing KF into the opposing general's unit against VC is a waste of 700 points - he has to max out on CR (1 For challenge + 5 Overkill) to win.
If you're going to use KF use him in ways that take advantage of his strengths. He's faster than most units on the opposing side, so he can pick off individual units. Moreover, there are a number of units he can reasonably kill in 1-2 rounds of combat with Ghal Maraz - Vargulf, Corpse Carts, Black Coaches, Wraiths. The opponent will be forced to lose their only heavy hitters or devote resources to healing numerous times (which will limit their raising). Field a couple minimum sized units to make sure you get the last deployment, you will need it so you can deploy KF to make best use of his ability.


If you were absolutely stuck on using KF to hunt the general, then I would do the following one-trick pony. Put a captain on a pegasus with the sword of fate. Charge both KF and the Captain into the opposing General's unit and don't declare a challenge. If your opponent declares a challenge with the General then KF accepts. If your opponent declares a challenge with the unit champion accept with the Captain. Then pound on the general. If you lose combat likely the captain will break, but KF will stick around and the captain will be safe and rally on a 10. It's a loser proposition, but you can try it.

Avariel
10-05-2008, 14:57
I play Empire and my boyfriend plays Vampire Counts. At 2250 it is very winnable for Empire. Its at 3500 that Vampire Counts gets really absurd because they have more power dice then you can possibly dispel and all their hitty units.

One of the key things is to have a good magic defense. Battle Wizard with 2 Dispel Scrolls and a second Battle Wizard with the Rod of Power so you can have at least 4 Dispel Dice, 6 with Rod of Power A third Wizard for the Staff of Sorcery is debatable but can help against IoN spam. Although you don't want the vampires to grow back too much the key spell to prevent is Vanhel's for the most part. Getting in additional charges and having first strike in combat is really nasty.

As a lord I am partial to Karl Franz on a Dragon just because I like dragons. He is quite effective. What you want to do is go for the hitty units and kill them off in a combined charge with Knights and maybe with some cannon support to kill off nastiness like the Blood Knights, Black Coach or Vargulfs. Without these units the Vampires won't hurt you too much and your steam tank can just roll over other units without getting nailed by high strength nastiness.

The Arch Lector on a War Altar works alright if you upgrade all your Wizards to level 2 so that you might actually get off some spells that he may want to dispel and save the prayers and wall altar spell for last. The typical VHS challenge Lector does not work all that well so I just go for a hitty weapon as well as the Armor of Meteoric Iron for better attacking and defense. Still take VHS but typically a champion will accept the challenge and you will not be attacking a vampire. Lore of Light can be really effective but it is likely that dispel dice will be saved for it. Not quite as effective as Karl Franz on a dragon though but if you don't want to use special characters.

For specials I always take at least 2 cannons. You really need them to thin out things like Blood Knights. Outriders are good for shear volume of fire and the Hochland to snipe unit Champions or Vampires is great.

For rares steam tanks are very effective as there is not much other then Blood Knights, Vampires and Black Coaches that can really put a dent in them effectively. Two steam tanks is a bit cheesy and pricey for 2250. You either win big or they get hit hard and rendered useless. The Hellstorm Rocket battery can be really good at doing alot of damage to units but is sort of unreliable. But if you can land the template on a unit containing a vampire you might want to shoot your cannons at it as well if you reduce it low enough. I have taken out a large number of skeletons with a the hellstorm, outriders and then cannons finished off the vampire.

the_raptor
10-05-2008, 18:11
Hunting VC Generals was viable last edition, not so much with the way IoN works these days.

Pretty much every army has a "one wound kills" or "one wound is multiplied to D6 wounds" weapon (2/3rd's chance to kill a VC lord with one wound). Equipped right you only need to score one wound to take out a VC general. And you can do it with a solo character by making sure he is touching the general and not the champion (un-engaged characters can't issue challengers). If you do it with a character in a unit you just have your champion accept his champions challenge (remembering that challenges are issued to the unit and not at a specific character, people often forget).

There is a reason my Vampire Lord is hiding such that she physically cannot be engaged in combat until the rest of her unit dies.

Eigilb
10-05-2008, 22:11
There is a reason my Vampire Lord is hiding such that she physically cannot be engaged in combat until the rest of her unit dies.


how is that possible... Seemes like i could use that strategi with my heirophant.

Spirit
11-05-2008, 11:37
That logic fails when he doesnt issue a challenge.

You can just allocate your attacks to anything in base to base combat, if you challenge with your champion or small character, his champion accepts and the character tooled up to kill your general still kills the general.

Yes your tactic works against van horstmens, or anything that needs to be used in a challenge, but it wont do anything against a fellblade and bands of power (even just the fellblade is enough to kill a vamp) because you cannot stop them allocating your attacks.

Max zero
11-05-2008, 14:21
The thing is most Vamp assassin's are not in a unit. They are usually some Lord on a mount. Getting into combat with a VC Lord can be hard, getting a whole unit can be almost impossible.

Yionel
16-05-2008, 04:00
Nullyfing a VC magic phase is a waste of time they get to many spells per turn and can even bring tons of bound spells in.
Id reccomand going with artillery and block that can handle fear

Mortars and Hellstorm,use swordmans so you can hit him easier in close combat and take more hit with there 4+ armor save, A character with the icon of magus in a greatsword man regiment and some flagellant would also be nice if you can get 2 or 3 block that ignore fear in HtH wth his most dangerous regiments you can outlast him easily..try to position those units in key position so that you can stretch his force and keep his casters far from each other making him spread up so you can nail him with artillery and slow down his raising concentrate on his main units with your artillery so he cant outnumber you with his units containing vampire (wich is where any dmg from that unit will be coming from)

Dexter099
16-05-2008, 06:52
Nullyfing a VC magic phase is a waste of time they get to many spells per turn and can even bring tons of bound spells in.
Id reccomand going with artillery and block that can handle fear)

I don't know about that. It won't matter how many you kill if he keeps on raising them back just as fast. No magic protection hurts, period.

Just bring a few scroll caddies.

Spirit
16-05-2008, 11:04
Yes dexter, ignoring the VC magic wont work, because you cant kill them fast enough, but on the other side "a few" scroll caddies means the scariest thing your entire army has to deal with is one elector count.

It can be very hard to strike a good balance against then i think, because they get great magic AND great combat. Or The best magic, but still good combat. Or the best combat, and still enough magic to survive, something other races fail at.

Yionel
16-05-2008, 12:52
I went saying puting no dispel but dont focus on it..cause those will be points
of character or troops the VC player wont have to deal with and you can never dispel everything a couple of priest and some dispel scroll should do the trick

klarke
16-05-2008, 12:58
I played empire the other day with my vampire counts and two mortars and one hellstrum killed 50 skeletons in one turn (I had two units of 35+, can't remember exactly how many I had raised)... So if you feel lucky with the scatter dice Mortars might be the way to go.

Irisado
17-05-2008, 10:05
I went saying puting no dispel but dont focus on it..cause those will be points
of character or troops the VC player wont have to deal with and you can never dispel everything a couple of priest and some dispel scroll should do the trick

If I'm playing games of 3000 points, I find taking a Light Wizard Lord invaluable.

You don't just have to go defensive in the magic phase against Vampire Counts. I've taken the attack to them, and contrary to popular belief, they can't dispel everything. Hitting smaller units, such as Black Knights with Light magic causes quite a bit of damage, and can blunt their attack quite effectively, so I wouldn't dismiss magic quite so quickly as you seem to be doing.


I played empire the other day with my vampire counts and two mortars and one hellstrum killed 50 skeletons in one turn (I had two units of 35+, can't remember exactly how many I had raised)... So if you feel lucky with the scatter dice Mortars might be the way to go.

I wish I had that kind of luck with my artillery.

I hardly ever take any now, since all my guns nearly always misfire, and rarely kill more than two models if they do manage to hit. I think I must be jinxed.

VC Doke
18-05-2008, 00:57
I don't think Icon of Magnus hasn't been said enough in this thread.

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