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soulcrusher
09-05-2008, 18:23
hey,
recently there has been alot of well.... controvesy about how the new daemons, how they seem so specialised in certain things like cc and magic gunlines etc

so hear it is ( i know it should be on the tactics page but theres a larger audience hear ) this is where you can discuss you anti - damons tactics

personnaly i think empire light wizards will be a serious thorn in any daemon players side

truthsayer
09-05-2008, 18:50
personnaly i think empire light wizards will be a serious thorn in any daemon players side

have you seen that new banner that will make light wizards miscast on a double of a 1,2 or 3!

i dont think they will be worrying that much about empire light wizards!!

soulcrusher
09-05-2008, 18:53
what!!!! damn, now i will have to rely on my gunlines !

larabic
09-05-2008, 18:58
Yeah there is a standard that makes you miscast on a double 1,2,3 for light wizards and -2 to the casting roll of a lore of their choice... if they pick light that would be harsh.

soulcrusher
09-05-2008, 19:00
still , emp wizards would still inflict some nasty damage though when backed up by some magic items, and anyway its not guarenteed your oponent will use it?

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2008, 19:07
1. March block them with fliers/scouts/fast things.
2. Shoot the crap out of them.
3. Repeat step 2 some more.
4. Get the charge, they're only t3 for the most part.

Throw expendable things at the big scary daemon that's inevitably leading the army.
Pretty basic tactics really.

Light wizards wont be a pain at all....sundering standard, yes throw lots of dice at the lore of light while the daemon player laughs at your exploding mages.

Empire have an easy time vs the new daemons.
Handguns or crossbows make a mess of them.
You have great cannons....several of them, all perfectly capable of flattening everything in the daemon army in a single shot, barring the great unclean one.
Pistoliers..lots of shots, lots of dead daemons.
Helblaster volley gun....more dead daemons.
Stank anyone? Daemons dont exactly have an easy time hacking that thing apart....only thing to worry about is a thirster with st10 or a great unclean one with the D6 wounds ability.

Emeraldw
09-05-2008, 19:21
^ My strategy is similar to what Unwanted is doing. I plan to shoot the snot out of them. T3 and a 5+ ward isn't going to save a lot from BS4 arrow fire. Plaugebearers are Mv4 so my Wood Elves will run circles around them.

Also I have given up trying to do magic against armies like VC's and Daemons. Just too much PD. I'll stick to my strengths, bows and hiding.

lokigod
09-05-2008, 19:40
Um for empire im sure the pope mobile of undercosted cheese with van horsterm could have fun! 2 bound light spells of doom!

larabic
09-05-2008, 19:50
Lol Khorne units can get standard that ignore march block. Any more ideas you want ruined by standards?

vinny t
09-05-2008, 19:56
Only way I can see Tomb kings being good against daemons would be if some daemon army thought sundering standard would be their only magic defense, that and Casket, and maybe a Khalida army, or maybe an infantry heavy one, because a chariot heavy one would get obliterated by pretty much every greater Daemon

Johnnyfrej
09-05-2008, 19:59
Warrior-Priests :D

fubukii
09-05-2008, 20:14
warped lightning cannons :) they always work for me take that mr bloodthrister hiding behind the woods!

larabic
09-05-2008, 20:17
Only way I can see Tomb kings being good against daemons would be if some daemon army thought sundering standard would be their only magic defense, that and Casket, and maybe a Khalida army, or maybe an infantry heavy one, because a chariot heavy one would get obliterated by pretty much every greater Daemon

Khorne dogs have a MR3 , so a unit of them would shut down a casket. Chariots would work pretty well i imagine. As would a bone giant.

thomas2
09-05-2008, 20:34
Anything O&G can do? Anything at all? They get pretty awesome magic defence,right? We can't shoot, and do I really want to fight them in close combat? I'm guessing not, which leaves precisely no options. I think I might be in trouble unless someone can think of something.

Wolfmother
09-05-2008, 20:43
my friend proxyed the new daemons book against my skaven skyre army and completly romped me!

nurgle plauge bearere with charecters in the units are rough to take down

2d6 s5 im on 3's to wound then they get 5+ ward then regen! so hard!

Solasun
09-05-2008, 20:51
Roll over and die at their numbers + wounding + static CR and throw more Gnoblars at the problem to see if a unit of Ironguts is any use.

Draconian77
09-05-2008, 20:57
Well for my no-touchie DE its run-shoot-magic-run. (I like to think of them as the Tau of the fantasy world)

If your opponent has an uber block of Plaguebearers you are better off not shooting it unless 1 kill knocks off a rank, anything else and you are wasting shooting that could be killing other tihngs.

Wolfmother
09-05-2008, 21:02
If your opponent has an uber block of Plaguebearers you are better off not shooting it unless 1 kill knocks off a rank, anything else and you are wasting shooting that could be killing other tihngs.

oh sorry i dint think id need to explain what happened when i got into combat!

poison on a 4+ shived my two giants and then i had plauge monks with a lord who are no match for "outnumbered by a fear causing enimy"!

fubukii
09-05-2008, 21:32
they would have to have the nurgle special char to get the posion on a 4+ if im not mistaken?

warp fire throwers are actually useful vs plague bearers as its a flaming attack :) no egen for u!

A good tactic for skaven to use to take out the plague bearer units is to kill his herald with your warlord or try to cannon snipe em. with a weeping blade doing d3 wounds all it takes is 1 failed ward/regen and its game over for that bad boy :)

javaguru
09-05-2008, 21:59
they would have to have the nurgle special char to get the posion on a 4+ if im not mistaken?

warp fire throwers are actually useful vs plague bearers as its a flaming attack :) no egen for u!

A good tactic for skaven to use to take out the plague bearer units is to kill his herald with your warlord or try to cannon snipe em. with a weeping blade doing d3 wounds all it takes is 1 failed ward/regen and its game over for that bad boy :)

Yep, and epidemius doesn't have the "Locus of Nurgle" rule so he doesn't confer regeneration on units he joins. He's also not a spellcaster.

Draconian77
09-05-2008, 22:03
Er, yeah I should have stated that Flaming missile attacks are ok.

Don't send Giants into poisonous/tarpit units full stop, you are wasting the Giants if you do. He has the movement to get to other targets.

Imperial Stormtrooper
09-05-2008, 23:48
if you ask me, i would just rely on my good ole static combat res. They have small amounts of men in each of their squads, and their standard troops aren't all that great. Sure there better then normal troops, but not any better than chosen knights right? if theres only say 15 men in a unit, just out manuever and flank with more plentiful units. you don't need to kill jack just let your static combat res make them fade slowly while your other units are on other things. Of course they do have a demon, but i would approach that the same way. Get big ole units and flank him. A demon can't kill that many on average. Of course he is great on paper, but i'll tell you people have a tendency to roll worse then they'd hope.

Mr_Rose
09-05-2008, 23:53
Anything O&G can do? Anything at all? They get pretty awesome magic defence,right? We can't shoot, and do I really want to fight them in close combat? I'm guessing not, which leaves precisely no options. I think I might be in trouble unless someone can think of something.

Savage Orcs.
v.s. Bloodletters anyway; Savage Orcs beat bloodletters on toughness and attacks, plus they have a ward save which is useful against KB. Compared to the basic Boy, they definitely come out ahead on the numbers since the best armour a Boy can have (LA, HW, SH) is instantly reduced to a 6+ by the Bloodletter's S5 anyway, before you take KB into account. Also, Immunity to psychology can't hurt either. Just watch out for being led around by the nose by Screamers and similar (Night gobbos w/fanatics nearby can help a lot with both bow and giant metal balls, plus LoS blocking).

javaguru
10-05-2008, 00:22
Savage Orcs.
v.s. Bloodletters anyway; Savage Orcs beat bloodletters on toughness and attacks, plus they have a ward save which is useful against KB. Compared to the basic Boy, they definitely come out ahead on the numbers since the best armour a Boy can have (LA, HW, SH) is instantly reduced to a 6+ by the Bloodletter's S5 anyway, before you take KB into account. Also, Immunity to psychology can't hurt either. Just watch out for being led around by the nose by Screamers and similar (Night gobbos w/fanatics nearby can help a lot with both bow and giant metal balls, plus LoS blocking).

While DoC can force frenzied units into unfavorable charges they can't bait and flee which reduces the liabilities of frenzy.

Lijacote
10-05-2008, 00:29
Get big ole units and flank him

I take it you flank things like Keepers of Secrets (movement 10), Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters (flight) often? You might be able to flank a Great Unclean One since he's "only" movement 6 but you'd almost have to do it with cavalry wouldn't you?

Kinsley
10-05-2008, 05:51
I take it you flank things like Keepers of Secrets (movement 10), Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters (flight) often? You might be able to flank a Great Unclean One since he's "only" movement 6 but you'd almost have to do it with cavalry wouldn't you?

And for couple points he wont have any flanks or rears and you'll always strike last, good times :p

Mr_Rose
10-05-2008, 06:10
While DoC can force frenzied units into unfavorable charges they can't bait and flee which reduces the liabilities of frenzy.
Oh yeah, ItP.
That's even better then; Savage Boyz all the way since they're also plain better fighters than Plaguebearers and Horrors (you have to watch out for other tricks with them) and tough enough to stand up to Daemonettes (AP is also negated by having a Ward Save).

soulcrusher
10-05-2008, 07:15
for my empire, i see a nuln based army coming along .....:evilgrin:, maybe supported by a few units of spearmen which have detachments of milita

in the latest wd a unit of ogre bulls fully tooled up with a butcher and tyrant absolutely nailed a mass of daemons including : horros , daemonettes , a few plaguebeaers , guo and some special characters . also the g cannons and hellblaster wrecked havoc.

plaguebeaers may bed tough but im sure if i slammed a hard unit against them e.g. spearmen supported by some detachments , they would soon die to instability

as for rares and guos, i see yet more cannons coming and maybe some wizards / knights

neXus6
10-05-2008, 07:17
Kill 'em all and let god sort them out...any god of your choice... :p

I've been looking a lot into starting a Daemon army so I've been looking at the strengths and weaknesses a fair bit, which is helpful seeing as I have other Fantasy armies. :D

Numbers are always going to be your friend, every army in the game should outnumber daemons...well except maybe Ogres, but they will still outnumber on wounds. Daemons are going to rely heavily on support units and combined charges, if you can keep the enemy units split up and engaged on their own your numbers really should start to tell. Particularly if you start getting your own flankers in.

Against Tzeentch magic lines speed will be off the essence. Get in close and kill as many of them as fast as possible so your not left facing all the magic in the world, twice.
Against Slannesh trap, bait or otherwise pin down the fast stuff as best you can and crush it.
Khorne and Nurgle are survivable in combat in different ways you need to over power them with combat res and flank charges then hopefully win out through instability, particularly in the case of Nurgle.

Amongst all this take any opportunity you can to wound/bring down any Greater Daemons, and always try to smash Heralds out of units in the first round of combat so their benefits are lost.

...Well that all makes it sound nice and simple...I'm sure it won't be though. :p

vinny t
10-05-2008, 17:51
You could always try a huge block of something not likely to run away, then try to tarpit and countercharge units, for big gribblies, shoot them or try to bait and flee from them.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
10-05-2008, 19:08
I think it's pretty clear that the Daemons are going to be a "Tier-1" Tournament army, particularly when played by a skillful General with a solid list. They have the flexibility with their varied units, Icons, and Daemonic Gifts to adapt for almost any foe, and some of the combos they can pull off are amazing.

Here's a simple one:

Tzeentch Herald with Master of Sorcery (Beasts) - casts The Bear's Anger on Skulltaker (on foot) - he instantly becomes:

WS-9, STR-8, Toughness-5, Wounds-2, Initiative-9, Attacks-7

* with Hatred, and Killing Blow * - yikes !

---------------

Another nice one:


Skulltaker, on Juggernaut - in a unit of Nurgle Plaguebearers (remember that Skulltaker is NOT a Herald and thus is not restricted by the wording on Page-30 of the new book about Heralds not being able to join units of another god). Give the unit the Standard of Seeping Decay which lets all models in the unit re-roll failed rolls "To Wound".

Skulltaker has 4 Attacks with Hatred and his Juggernaut has 2 more attacks with Hatred (all of the attacks both rider and mount, are Killing Blow attacks). So he re-rolls all his misses in the first round of the combat...THEN...because of the Standard....he and the mount get to re-roll any/all failed WOUND rolls too (meaning double the chance to get a "6" and activate a Killing Blow !).

Brutal. :evilgrin:

EndlessBug
10-05-2008, 19:15
Skulltaker, on Juggernaut - in a unit of Nurgle Plaguebearers (remember that Skulltaker is NOT a Herald and thus is not restricted by the wording on Page-30 of the new book about Heralds not being able to join units of another god).

Please use common sense when reading army lists, this is just a ridiculous idea. Just because GW forgot to input the fact that the special characters CLEARLY count as heralds of their gods and so can only join units of said god (except the Masque which cannot join units) doesn't mean they aren't.

Let me point out that all the special characters (except Skulltaker) have name of god as their title. On skulltaker, please refer to his fluff section where it states him as the Blood Gods immortal champion, clearly he is purely Khornes.

neXus6
10-05-2008, 19:20
Actually the special characters are NOT heralds in any way, the main obvious difference being Heralds ALL have Locus while the specials do not, Skulltaker is a champion of Khorne, Masque is a Daemonette and Epidemius is the Tallymaster.

I'm pretty sure it is, or at least should be, an over riding "no CHARACTERS may join a unit of a different god" rule though. :)

isidril93
10-05-2008, 20:25
one thing about daemons is that when you start fighting a regiment and start beating them it is VERY hard for that unit to make a comeback unless it has help

and some things
dont attack letters with knights
dont attack nettes with a horde
dont attack bearers with a low strength unit
dont not attack horrors, they are the worst at combat

Znail
10-05-2008, 20:41
Its not easy to come up with some generic tactics against the daemons as its a very varid army list. The only thing missing is cheap units. So a mass of normal missile troops could work.

Gralph!?!
10-05-2008, 20:47
the daemons are pretty simply to take care off from what i have seen. mind you that is only 1000pt games. so i have basic troops and thats about it.

daemonettes, bloodletters and horrors are **** weak if charged as all they have is a 5+ ward save. they are expensive so will likely not have lots of numbers and if you charge such units with something that has full ranks then they die horribly. bloodletters do not have enough attacks or ranks to take on a unit and win easily. daemonettes will suffer against things with an armour save or high toughness even if they go first.

orcs will have alot of the units as they get alot of attacks at a reasonable strength so it will make such units rather fragile against them. shooting them works well naturally, magic will be fine, the trick is to take multiple lores of magic to stop the sundering standard from screwing you over.

the daemons`have high manouvrability but low toughness and bugger all armour so they are easily delt with so long as YOU charge them.

neXus6
10-05-2008, 20:52
I don't really think 1000pt games are a fair judge for daemons its kinda like playing Tomb Kings at under 2000pts. You really need at least 2k before you start being able to take enough daemons to form an army out of.

I actually diasgree with Daemonettes being bad against high armour and toughness as long as it isn't too high. I'd fully expect a unit of Daemonettes combine chargeing with Seekers or fiends in the Flank to be able to take on T4 troops with 3/4+ saves simply through weight of attacks.

Nothing in the Daemon list is a push over particularly if they get to dictate where the fights take place, you just need to try and make sure their units cant support each other while you hopefully have extra units to flank and wear down theirs.

lokigod
10-05-2008, 21:13
Thing is I hear all of you saying just kill the herald.... who is going to be stupid enough to accept a challenge from a tooled out lord with a herald? Just send the champion in or move to back rank and keep your bonus..... You could try to kill him with rank and file but that will only be effective what 2 out of 10 times on the first round. What you say I dont challenge well ok then I challenge you with my unit champion....

khorne herald on jugger tooled up is 3 attacks at 7 str with hatred+ high ws, 2 str 5 from jugger and 0+ armour save with armour of khorne and flaming gift gift(and kb)..... yep thats easy to kill

nurgle herald is tooled up ws 5 str 5 at 3 with always strike last with gift and poison... and regen and a ward! thats with out adding palaquin for 6 more ws3 str poisoned attacks...... yep thats easy to kill

slaanesh well there whole list is subpar now so.....

tzeentch +4 ward and fly, enough said

If you want to kill daemons hit them where it hurts with magic unlesss there tzeentch, and then kill them with combat.

P.S. skulltaker is not a herald so he could join pb.... if you use raw

Gloryseeker
10-05-2008, 21:41
Only way I can see Tomb kings being good against daemons would be if some daemon army thought sundering standard would be their only magic defense, that and Casket, and maybe a Khalida army, or maybe an infantry heavy one, because a chariot heavy one would get obliterated by pretty much every greater Daemon


Khorne dogs have a MR3 , so a unit of them would shut down a casket. Chariots would work pretty well i imagine. As would a bone giant.

As far as i know the casket doesnt target specific units, it just all units with line of sight to the casket, so no magic resistance. I could be wrong tho not that well versed on fantasy. No doubt somebody will correct me

decker_cky
10-05-2008, 21:48
You are wrong. MR works if the unit will be affected by the spell. Khorne dogs are hard.

Gloryseeker
10-05-2008, 21:58
sorry, i guess that would totally screw TK then especially if they had 2 units of dogs

javaguru
10-05-2008, 22:41
sorry, i guess that would totally screw TK then especially if they had 2 units of dogs

Just for anything direct damage. A Khorne based army will struggle defending itself from the all important movement and raising incantations. Also, at 35 points a pop you won't see a lot of fleshounds running around. The ability to tarpit is something that TK have going for them that will frustrate daemon players. Fear plays a major part in the strength of DoC and undead negates that advantage. With unit point costs, a battle of attrition is the last thing they was to get involved in because their models aren't coming back and give up hefty VP's.

IME, the casket ends up being more of a psychological weapon than a casualty producer.

Mr_Rose
10-05-2008, 22:43
sorry, i guess that would totally screw TK then especially if they had 2 units of dogs

Why? MR isn't cumulative*; you get the highest number from those affected and the best you can ever get is MR (3).

One thing I have noticed though is that Kairos Fateweaver actually knows twenty spells; it's just that six of them are duplicates (each head knows the four selected plus all six Tzeenchi spells) which means that if you use a destroy spell scroll on one of his Tzeenchi spells, he can get it back by switching heads next turn....


*Unless specified otherwise in a special rule.

decker_cky
10-05-2008, 22:48
MR works if the unit is targeted, or directly affected by a spell. Casket does this, as does the orc horn that makes units lower leadership. Movement spells target the mover, so don't get MR against.

Casket is useless against flesh hounds.

But javaguru, all you said about fear and expensive models applies to tomb kings as well, and daemons don't get revived, but they aren't that much more expensive for far better stats. Even horrors can hold their own against a block of skeletons with handweapons and shields for only 3 pts per model more. Daemons are a horrible matchup for tomb kings unless your army is set up to face them.

Actually...my ideal moment in daemons vs tomb kings would be for the changeling to swap stats with the tomb king and kill him with his stats and flaming attacks. :D

javaguru
10-05-2008, 23:22
MR works if the unit is targeted, or directly affected by a spell. Casket does this, as does the orc horn that makes units lower leadership. Movement spells target the mover, so don't get MR against.

Casket is useless against flesh hounds.

But javaguru, all you said about fear and expensive models applies to tomb kings as well, and daemons don't get revived, but they aren't that much more expensive for far better stats. Even horrors can hold their own against a block of skeletons with handweapons and shields for only 3 pts per model more. Daemons are a horrible matchup for tomb kings unless your army is set up to face them.

Actually...my ideal moment in daemons vs tomb kings would be for the changeling to swap stats with the tomb king and kill him with his stats and flaming attacks. :D

The basic skeleton is 2/3 the cost of a horror, they're 12pts per model, but where you'll see the differences are in characters. TK can field a tomb king and two priests unkitted for less than the base cost for a GD. This allows TK to play the attrition + flank game. Most only have a 5+ ward save and are only T3, plaguebearers are the ones that can really play the attrition game.

As far as the changeling, I think the Tomb King would have better things to do than go after horrors.:D Also, the changeling is a special character and should have a converted model which unlike the speculum makes him easy to avoid.

Grimtuff
10-05-2008, 23:34
Another nice one:


Skulltaker, on Juggernaut - in a unit of Nurgle Plaguebearers (remember that Skulltaker is NOT a Herald and thus is not restricted by the wording on Page-30 of the new book about Heralds not being able to join units of another god). Give the unit the Standard of Seeping Decay which lets all models in the unit re-roll failed rolls "To Wound".

Skulltaker has 4 Attacks with Hatred and his Juggernaut has 2 more attacks with Hatred (all of the attacks both rider and mount, are Killing Blow attacks). So he re-rolls all his misses in the first round of the combat...THEN...because of the Standard....he and the mount get to re-roll any/all failed WOUND rolls too (meaning double the chance to get a "6" and activate a Killing Blow !).

Brutal. :evilgrin:



P.S. skulltaker is not a herald so he could join pb.... if you use raw

:rolleyes:

Words within the boundaries of both Warseer's swear filter and my own vocabulary cannot describe what I think of both of you for even suggesting this.

I think Sausage-gobblers will do for now....

Knighta
11-05-2008, 08:40
:rolleyes:

Words within the boundaries of both Warseer's swear filter and my own vocabulary cannot describe what I think of both of you for even suggesting this.

I think Sausage-gobblers will do for now....

Nicely put

The Senate
11-05-2008, 09:58
Ha all this desperate squealing in fear of the new demons! I can't wait to field my own rainbow army and lash my opponants force with terrible magics. Lighten up and don't be cheesy.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 10:42
Just for anything direct damage. A Khorne based army will struggle defending itself from the all important movement and raising incantations. Also, at 35 points a pop you won't see a lot of fleshounds running around. The ability to tarpit is something that TK have going for them that will frustrate daemon players. Fear plays a major part in the strength of DoC and undead negates that advantage.

Fear plays a major part in the strength of the undead and Daemonic negates that part. :p

A Khorne-based army will also by definition (at least I would think so) have a Bloodthirster with a thing for killing hierophants.

Emeraldw
11-05-2008, 14:42
To be honeset, after playing daemons in a 2250 game, we don't really need a whole thread dedicated to stopping them. Mainly you need to win in subsequent rounds of combat as breaking them on the charge isn't likely.

Many of the daemons are fragile, Slaneesh, Khorne and Tzeentch Daemon cores are all T3 and Nugle being only T4. Greater Daemons are only T5 or 6 and are large targets, warmachine and shooting bait. The special and rare units aren't that scary, mainly because they will only have a lot of core! You need three core and that is at least 320 points, but if you have those core, leaving them at minimum makes them rather weak. Heralds are a great benefit to them to become effective but it still doesn't save you from being shot before you get there and being easy to kill if you don't kill them.

It is really a balancing act, I played with a lord of change and he got demolished by a warmachine before I could act really. Sure my daemonettes with a herald really tore things up against some dwarves, but that was partly because of damn good rolling on my part. Bloodletters killed some Slayers and warriors but without a herald in there, how would I have done? Plaugebearers were ignored and rightly so! Regen and only Mv4 make it easy to leave them for the end.

The expense of Daemons is such that once you get a lord and some core, you don't have much room for anything else. It's an interesting army to be sure but the complaints we have heard about them are really not adequate to describe the army. It really isn't that bad at all.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-05-2008, 15:20
I think letting my infantry out to play on them seems the best idea.

I can outnumber, and they might hit fairly hard, but have little true staying power.

Plus, I'm highly likely to have superior numbers.

isidril93
11-05-2008, 15:52
i design an all khorne army in 3k pts
it had-
1 bloodthirster
3 heralds
45 letters
15 flesh hounds
10 crushers

quite fast with some really strong units
imagine getting hit in the front by 4 crushers with herald and a thirster on the flank!!!
no one will survive!!!

but i will not be using this army list

Mr_Rose
11-05-2008, 16:41
Yeah, you can do silly things with dedicated armies, like get 19PD from a 2500pt Tzeenchi army. Except that there could be more dice, if only I could give up those dispel gifts...it's not even a matter of points. Oh and that's 19, plus one for every spell the enemy cast last turn (the Blue Scribes say hi), which could be truly ridiculous against a maximum-magic VC army:

Kairos Fateweaver (who has the burny sword of burning (3+ to cast with a re-roll? I'd buy that for a dollar!)) as one of his optional spells, just in case of combat.
Blue Scribes
2 Heralds
90 Horrors
The balance is in flamers and screamers.

javaguru
11-05-2008, 16:49
Fear plays a major part in the strength of the undead and Daemonic negates that part. :p

A Khorne-based army will also by definition (at least I would think so) have a Bloodthirster with a thing for killing hierophants.

The difference is that undead models come back to "life" and daemons don't. Engaging in multiple rounds of combat with the risk of being flanked is a real concern for daemons.

I would love to have the BT chase my hierophant around the table all game. :D In all seriousness, the BT may kill one liche priest or I may challenge with the unit champion. Regardless, the BT is locked in combat waiting for a flank charge. Personally, I would rather face a BT khorne army with my TK list than 2 stanks Empire.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 17:04
The difference is that undead models come back to "life" and daemons don't.

And undead units suck.


I would love to have the BT chase my hierophant around the table all game. In all seriousness, the BT may kill one liche priest or I may challenge with the unit champion.

I don't think you'll be challenging the Bloodthirster if it charges your unit and kills the Hierophant (last I heard, they weren't capable of enduring relentless rage)

EndlessBug
11-05-2008, 17:07
i design an all khorne army in 3k pts
it had-
1 bloodthirster
3 heralds
45 letters
15 flesh hounds
10 crushers

quite fast with some really strong units
imagine getting hit in the front by 4 crushers with herald and a thirster on the flank!!!
no one will survive!!!

but i will not be using this army list

But then again will you survive when someone outmanouvers you? those letters I assume in units, 10, 10, 10, 15 will get overrun in seconds if anything charges them.

sure the rest of the army is mean but for example a faster/more manouverable army than that would slaughter it, see Brets, Slaanesh, Dark elves, wood elves...


all in all I think the daemon book is nicely balanced, slow and purposeful, fast and deadly, a mix of the two... all very well balanced all in all.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 17:42
those letters I assume in units, 10, 10, 10, 15 will get overrun in seconds if anything charges them.


You over-run all of them, with what? Oh sure, with your army. But what about the rest of the Daemons? Focusing on the letters is only sure to bring about your demise.

mortetvie
11-05-2008, 17:59
I think a good tzeench list would be quite rediculous to beat... plan on taking a list to the final rounds of the fantasy 'ard boys and with so many charactesr that can take all spells in any lore you really have the flexebility to get spells that will ruin someone's day. 3 or 4 casters with lore of metal against gunline armies? Lore of life and spam mistress of the marsh and just outmaneuver the enemy? I think the only armies that could do well are maybe some really fast khorne armies =).

Petey
11-05-2008, 18:04
My thoughts on this topic...
well, just equate the Greater daemons as Lords on Dragons and deal with them as such.
Daemon Princes are about the equivelant of a lord on griffon, so again deal with it as such.
All the heralds are quite expensive so any army that has a lord and 3 heroes @2k will be spending at least half of its points on Characters making it have a small Army Unit Strength, which as we all know can be damning.
All the core units are 12 pts a model, with a 5+ save, and all the core is infantry. So basically i would treat the whole army as i would an opponent that was allowed to use HighElves and Dwarves at the same time. Shoot the weak ones and bring overwhelming force to the slow ones.
The Special arent anything new either, the hounds are just chaos knights, the flamers are cannons with dwarf crew, Slannesh gives them highelf fast cav, and Nurgle gives them scouts.
Really the army is very similar to what we all face every time we pick up the dice and game. You just have to know what you re fighting and trust the tactics that you use elsewhere to stop these monstrosities here too.

For example, I ll use my Dark Elf force (i have one of each army except mortals, daemons, and DoW) @2k
2x5 Dork Riders
20 Corsairs CMS w/ the murder banner
Hydra
9 shades
5 harpies
2x RBT
chariot
Lord on foot
Hero on Pegasus
2 lvl2 Mages

This is my typical force for DE. I would use the riders to outflank and shoot up any unit that doesn't have that crazy khorne banner. The shades will scout and send a ton of fire into any non nurgle unit. We ll soften them up as they advance on us (as unless they re solid Tzeench they will) then hit them with chariot hydra and corsairs. The hero on the pegasus will be annoying them with lifetaker and march blocking while at the same time positioning to charge vulnerable units like flamers, screamers, or furies; or to charge assist one of my melee focused units.
While this army fears greater daemons, it also fears HE lords on Star Dragons as well, and i ve beaten those (admittedly I've also lost to them). Enough missle fire from RBT and RXB will take them down, and that s most of my enemy's force.

KeeganKatastrofee
11-05-2008, 18:06
same tactics as with every other army



number of models > zero = victory



it's fullproof!

Emeraldw
11-05-2008, 18:30
@Petey: Your comparisons of the large daemons are not off I feel, except in those cases you usually have a weaker rider than the mount (or the mount doesn't have any saves).

Flesh hounds =/= chaos knights in anything other than offense. Chaos knights are better all around due to having armor. A 5+ ward is nice since you always have it but in general against lots of normal str hits, it's far worse.

I just consider the cores to be special units, they certainly cost enough.

javaguru
11-05-2008, 18:32
And undead units suck.



I don't think you'll be challenging the Bloodthirster if it charges your unit and kills the Hierophant (last I heard, they weren't capable of enduring relentless rage)
Most TK kit their Hierophant to fly, the thirster will never catch him.
Here's how it works, Bloodthirster charges skeleton unit. TK player challenges BT with the unit champion, his max CR is 6(5 overkill +1 for killing the champion). The skeletons have ranks, outnumber and a banner for a CR of 5. TK player loses by one removing another model. Those come back in the following magic phase and you can repeat if necessary. If the BT rolls below average on 'to wound' he can end up losing the combat by one(musician) and possibly taking wounds.

Anyone that plans on taking a BT in a khorne army thinking it will be "point and click" will be unpleasantly surprised.

Skeletons fight as well against a bloodthirster as any rank and file, hit on 5's and wound on 6's.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 19:12
Stuff

If what you say is true, I have been deceived. I was left to think that charged players could, in fact, NOT issue challenges. I shall render judgement for this, and take back what I said about Bloodthirsters.

Lord Raneus
11-05-2008, 19:14
Nope, anyone can issue challenges. And if you challenge the Liche Priest, he can always refuse it (unless BT has some kind of nifty SR.)

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 19:17
I shall smite my gaming group with three dozen plastic rank'n'file spearmen. This detail has cost me at least two battles.

In light of the new evidence, Tomb Kings, are in fact, a good match for Khorne. Very good in fact.

EndlessBug
11-05-2008, 19:23
Challenges work like so:
1. Player declares a challenge.
2. Opposing player accepts/declines with whatever character/unit champion he choses. You don't declare a challenge to a specific model, you only declare a challenge to whoever is in the combat that can accept.

so if I had a unit of 5 knights with a lord in I can decide to declare a challenge with my lord. say the opposing player had a similar makeup he can EITHER accept with the lord OR the unit champion.

javaguru
11-05-2008, 19:26
Nope, anyone can issue challenges. And if you challenge the Liche Priest, he can always refuse it (unless BT has some kind of nifty SR.)

Or accept with the champion.:skull:
"If the challenge is accepted, the player selects one of his characters from those already fighting in the combat to take up the challenge." pg 76

Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-05-2008, 20:26
To those few who spoke out against Skulltaker with Nurgle troopers - you really have no legit ground to stand on going by the book's new-fluff (all Daemons are okay with working together when their Gods command them to or when it means a better chance of crushing the mortal foes they are going up against)....OR the literal wording in the book.

Skulltaker is the Champion of Khorne. He is NOT a "Herald of Khorne". He does not have the Locus of Khorne ability that ALL other "Heralds of Khorne" have as a default ability. Using what logic, either from his written rules in the book, OR his fluff entry in the book, would you be able to conclude that he IS "in fact" a "Herald of Khorne" ?


Epidemius is the Tallyman of Nurgle and "one of the 7 Proctors of Pestilence" (some very-high-ranking Daemonic Hierarchy for Nurgle). He is NOT a "Herald of Nurgle". He does not have the Locus of Nurgle ability and does not confer Regen on a unit he joins, even though any other "run-of-the-mill" Herald of Nurgle WOULD. As with Skulltaker, what logic could someone possibly employ to argue that he is a "Herald of Nurgle" - when he is never called this in his rules or fluff, and when he doesn't even have the default ability (Locus) that ALL other "Heralds" have ?

:cool:


I'm not saying I'd necessarily try to run this "combo" (the only good one would be Skulltaker with a unit of Nurgle to get the re-rolls for Wounds if you have that one Nurgle Icon in that unit) ....but I find those who are talking down to it even being suggested are being ridiculous, themselves, since they can't come up with anything legitimately refuting it.


* One additional fluff support is that Khorne/Nurgle work together more than any of the other Gods of Chaos and the book actually has a reference in the Timeline of U'zuhl the Skulltaker and Ku'gath the Plaguefather forming an alliance and going on to rampage through the mortal world for a long while till they were stopped at a big battle. You are saying that at no point would Skulltaker have marched alongside Plaguebearers if it meant getting closer to the enemy to take their skulls//win the battle ? Please. The new fluff supports combo-formations even more now than ever before. You can have Lords of Change leading Bloodletters and Beasts of Nurgle now ! Clearly everything we used to think about Daemons has largely been turned upside down.

And again...going back to the raw rules for both those guys (Skulltaker and Epidemius) there is NOTHING to suggest they are "Heralds" and thus no legitimate way an opponent could prevent you from putting them in a unit of another god's infantry, etc. *

TheMav80
11-05-2008, 22:01
Just for anything direct damage. A Khorne based army will struggle defending itself from the all important movement and raising incantations. Also, at 35 points a pop you won't see a lot of fleshounds running around. The ability to tarpit is something that TK have going for them that will frustrate daemon players. Fear plays a major part in the strength of DoC and undead negates that advantage. With unit point costs, a battle of attrition is the last thing they was to get involved in because their models aren't coming back and give up hefty VP's.

IME, the casket ends up being more of a psychological weapon than a casualty producer.

Just take a herald with the Standard of Sundering. Makes it harder to spam those summoning spells.

javaguru
11-05-2008, 22:08
Just take a herald with the Standard of Sundering. Makes it harder to spam those summoning spells.

TK incantations aren't affected by items that modify power level. They're cast like bound items.

guillaume
12-05-2008, 03:22
well, let see 2 games in against daemons at 2250: 1 loss and 1 draw.

i had my usual: tyrant with tenderiser, 3 butchers, 3 units of IG, 1 unit of OB, 2 units of LB, 3 maneaters, 1 gorger, 3 yethees

One game was against a full khorne army and one full mix (all 4 gods). What I found out the hard way!

1- that banner of sundering wreaks HAVOC with our magic. We do well when we can cast our spells with 1 die. That banner forces us to cast with 2-3 dice. If you can get your hands on that herald, kill it quickly!

2- the masque is a real annoyance especially when he is played alone. He screwed my yethees and got the unit with my tyrant to fail their break test (they were -3 to their LD). Again, a must kill for the leadbelchers.

3- skulltaker has killing blow which apparently work for ANY sized model. Be very careful with your tyrant he can die on a 6 to wound. I know!

4- flesh hounds, I managed to kill a lot of them today, yet they can really chew through iron guts, especially karanak! They charge 16" but they were very unreliable. Not sure about them yet. I killed a lot, yet got units chewed on the charge.

5- seekers of slaanesh, heck my gnoblars killed 3 of them with sharp stuff icon_lol and more got chewed in combat by 1 ogre bull even though they charged in the flank of my ogre unit. Just keep a unit of LB by their side. They'll die soon.

6- Units of plaguebearer with a herald! 5+ ward save and regeneration (4+ ward saves)...close to unkillable, and no our high strength weapon do very little against daemons. very few daemons have armour saves. Instead they all have ward saves, 5+ and 4+. And Yes when your opponent roll 4 dice, he's bound to roll a 5 or 6.

7- and finally the WORST: units of 4 beast of Nurgle: 400pts BUT: an average of 18 attacks! at st4 of which 3 will be auto hit (they have poison) That D6+1 attacks is just deadly. They are of course To 5 (although that's not so much a problem with st6 weapons).
My opponent had a few good rolls and a huge unit like can dish out a horrendous number of attacks, and even 4 IG will not be able to take it. The best however, is that even though you hit them, they have 5+ ward saves (yes my opponents saved a lot of them like that today) AND regen....4 beast of nurgle are going NOWHERE. Finally, you dont get any bonus for flank or back, so all that tactical maneuvering is useless.

So it seems to me that one way to deal with the new daemons is to take out the heads. Set out to kill the heralds, and it will be easier to kill the regular daemons. But then again, that's very hard to do against good opponents.

What has anyone else found about fighting the new daemons. How do the daemonettes fare in combat? anyone got hit by flamers yet?

Petey
12-05-2008, 06:05
@ Emeraldw
You re right that flesh hounds are almost not the same as chaos knights, but i was saying, treat them the same way. You try not to let them charge you, if they do, make sure it s against a unit with good static CR etc. Yes, for killing them you need many small shots instead of a few AP shots, but i would still hit them with cannons and bolt throwers if i didn't have to kill a greater daemon with them. And also you only really care about knight on a charge in any event, so the same is true with the hounds

Emeraldw
12-05-2008, 11:53
I had the chance to play as daemons the other day, I thought I'd give my impressions.

1. Vulnerable: the whole army may have a 5+ ward save but anything other than nurgle and Greater Daemons are very vulnerable to attacks. It is not that hard to kill daemons by CC, shooting or magic and that is just based on most of the things being T3.

2. Point Cost: Due to the sheer expense of daemons you just cannot take all that many of them. You need those core units and you are already looking at 600+ points if you take 3 15 man squads with command.

3. Heroes are a must: Without heralds in with the core troops, they are not that great. In fact a small unit of Men-at-arms could stand with a group of daemonettes without a herald there to aid in killing (not to mention ASF).

4. Speed: Daemons on average are fast, even Nurgle things except plaugebearers.

5. Magic: Daemons are magical and have the spells as an army to run a pretty good magic phase easily.

6. Outnumbered: Wow is all I have to say in this regard. My army was so outnumbered it was crazy. Dwarves were all over the place. Sure I hit hard but I have too. Thinning out their numbers from turn one is paramount to success.

My general conclusion was this, it plays a lot like another type of Elf. Yeah, I called daemons elves. But they play just like them. They move fast, hit hard, can't take a lot of punishment. Even those beasts of Nurgle can die to enough bow fire, they can't make all those ward saves all the time. I really right now see nothing that can make them overpowering later on. I mean even the supposed nastiness of a KOS doesn't really serve to offset the rest of the armies weakness. Not to mention you can still use something like "the beast cowers" to stop that big thing from even moving or difficult terrain from the lore of life.

I'm not worried about Daemons, I had considered them as my second army but as I play them, they are just way too similar to my wood elves. I think I might go back to Brettonians.

isidril93
12-05-2008, 17:26
I had the chance to play as daemons the other day, I thought I'd give my impressions.

1. Vulnerable: the whole army may have a 5+ ward save but anything other than nurgle and Greater Daemons are very vulnerable to attacks. It is not that hard to kill daemons by CC, shooting or magic and that is just based on most of the things being T3.

2. Point Cost: Due to the sheer expense of daemons you just cannot take all that many of them. You need those core units and you are already looking at 600+ points if you take 3 15 man squads with command.

3. Heroes are a must: Without heralds in with the core troops, they are not that great. In fact a small unit of Men-at-arms could stand with a group of daemonettes without a herald there to aid in killing (not to mention ASF).

4. Speed: Daemons on average are fast, even Nurgle things except plaugebearers.

5. Magic: Daemons are magical and have the spells as an army to run a pretty good magic phase easily.

6. Outnumbered: Wow is all I have to say in this regard. My army was so outnumbered it was crazy. Dwarves were all over the place. Sure I hit hard but I have too. Thinning out their numbers from turn one is paramount to success.

My general conclusion was this, it plays a lot like another type of Elf. Yeah, I called daemons elves. But they play just like them. They move fast, hit hard, can't take a lot of punishment. Even those beasts of Nurgle can die to enough bow fire, they can't make all those ward saves all the time. I really right now see nothing that can make them overpowering later on. I mean even the supposed nastiness of a KOS doesn't really serve to offset the rest of the armies weakness. Not to mention you can still use something like "the beast cowers" to stop that big thing from even moving or difficult terrain from the lore of life.

I'm not worried about Daemons, I had considered them as my second army but as I play them, they are just way too similar to my wood elves. I think I might go back to Brettonians.

its true they are quite a bit like elves...actually like woodelves since they have forest spirits, treemen etc...

they are very expensive but then again cause fear and those armies that have hordes usually have low ld unless they are undead

daemons arent fast...they are VERY fast...faster than most cavalary armies infact

actually heralds are not that important...i mean a unit is still good without them, nurgle benefits the most from them but if you take brett archers with fire bows they are useless

the keeper of secrets has one of the best assasinating spells ever...pavane of slaanesh, couple that up with the masque and phantasmagoria you will quickly see your very expensive characters die

Emeraldw
12-05-2008, 17:39
its true they are quite a bit like elves...actually like woodelves since they have forest spirits, treemen etc...

they are very expensive but then again cause fear and those armies that have hordes usually have low ld unless they are undead

daemons arent fast...they are VERY fast...faster than most cavalary armies infact

actually heralds are not that important...i mean a unit is still good without them, nurgle benefits the most from them but if you take brett archers with fire bows they are useless

the keeper of secrets has one of the best assasinating spells ever...pavane of slaanesh, couple that up with the masque and phantasmagoria you will quickly see your very expensive characters die

Considering what you pay for a greater daemon I'd hope they can be somewhat effective!

Fear tests can be gotten around, as when I charge you'll just hit on 6's since you will likely outnumber. Daemons better win fast or things are not going to be going their way.

Peasants? Thats a gamble :p
But I see what your saying, still they need 5's to wound and their hit is a 4+ (assuming no modifers). And then theres the 5+ ward. More than likely, I would just avoid that unit and shoot at units like daemonettes I have a much better chance of harming.

The one point I do not agree on is heralds. I feel they are almost mandatory for your core units. I mean daemonettes are an alright unit, but without a herald to give them ASF and help butcher the enemy not to mention weaken their leadership I find deamonettes far too vulnerable to normal troops without her.

Plaugebearers need a Herald to give them the firepower to win combat. 1 poisoned attack each at St4 isn't bad but at WS3? Not that great against things with decent armor, even a 4+ save can reasonably stop the poison. The regeneration is nice but with the unit only having mv 4, you can just ignore it while you handle the much faster units in the army.

Bloodletters could really use the herald for the same reason as daemonettes. Decent on their own but really useful with a herald, and I think that is the point of heralds. The army was made with heroes as part of the focus.

Gralph!?!
12-05-2008, 19:05
3- skulltaker has killing blow which apparently work for ANY sized model. Be very careful with your tyrant he can die on a 6 to wound. I know!

4- flesh hounds, I managed to kill a lot of them today, yet they can really chew through iron guts, especially karanak! They charge 16" but they were very unreliable. Not sure about them yet. I killed a lot, yet got units chewed on the charge.



ummm... skulltaker can do killing blow to anything in a challnge ONLY. otherwise he is a herald with an extra attack.

flesh hounds have a weakness to masses of attack and as such will falter against units with full combat res and a good save.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-05-2008, 19:42
Flesh Hounds are great because they deal out a high amount of attacks (2 each), and are quite resilient with Toughness-4, 5+ Ward, and 2 Wounds per model.


Say you run 6 of them into the front of an enemy unit even (this would be the worst-case scenario for them), and assume the unit has Full Static Res of +5, as well as a Musician (meaning the Hounds need at least 6-Wounds to overcome that Static Res).

With 6...you get 12 attacks @ WS-5....against MOST units, the Hounds will hit on 3+ ...so presume 9 hits. Then with STR-5 to Wound, they are anywhere from 2+ to 3+ for that roll, against most enemy troopers. Let's be kind and assume "only" 3+ ....that's still 6 Wounds, on average, with a -2 Armor Save modifier due to their high strength ! That's enough to negate most "average" 5+ Armor saves, or turn 4+ (pretty darn good for R&F common troopers) ....into a "wing and a prayer" 6+ desperation roll.

Either way, the Hounds are likely to win that combat and wipe out the front rank so there is nobody left to hit them anyways. They will have overcome the Static Res too...so break test time (assuming the foe is not ITP, etc).

-----

It's worse/better for the Hounds if they are against the more common Toughness-3 enemy, as those 9 hits would be wounding on 2+, instead of 3+, making their victory all the more certain.


--------

At their price, they are a great value, and the Magic Resistance (3) cannot be overlooked either.


Chosen Knights of Chaos with a 5+ Ward Save instead of a 1+ Armor Save (take your pick)...and 2 Wounds for the Hounds instead of 1 Wound for the Knights (IIRC).

It's an interesting comparison.

Fulgrim's Gimp
12-05-2008, 21:06
Anti Tzeentch daemons tactic for me is BSB with dragon armour and banner of the World Dragon and a unit of dragon princes, immune to everything Tzeentch can throw at them and any attack of a certain Skulltaker. Though in fairness I'd allow Tzeentch shooting to work on them in games.

Emeraldw
12-05-2008, 22:04
Anti Tzeentch daemons tactic for me is BSB with dragon armour and banner of the World Dragon and a unit of dragon princes, immune to everything Tzeentch can throw at them and any attack of a certain Skulltaker. Though in fairness I'd allow Tzeentch shooting to work on them in games.

Tzeentch shooting can't work as it specifically says "flaming."

It's a good idea, but what about if they take a bloodthirster? :D

Expensive but it could work very well.

guillaume
13-05-2008, 03:14
Seems to me like CR are very important against daemons.

Nothing will take care of daemons like 3 ranks+banner+outnumber.

As an Ogre player, it is tough to meet a new army that works kind of the same way: fast, hard on the charge and lots of little units.

Fraoch
13-05-2008, 17:06
I played the new demons for the first time at the weekend against what seemed like a nasty list - all Nurgle with 3 units of plaguebeares, two with heralds on palanquins (with enemy always strikes last and no rear flank bonus), one with battle standard (standard of sundering severely reducing any magic assault), a GUO with regen, a unit of plagueriders and furies. All important stuff has regen and the ward and therefore is VERY difficult to kill.

Of couse flaming attacks would be very useful but in a take on all comers list there are High Elves to think about!

It probably didn't help that I was using High Elves myself, with the Heralds negating always strike first and low toughness being vulnerable against nurgle magic.

minionboy
13-05-2008, 17:47
Ring of Volans with Cleansing Flare... Snicker...

Znail
14-05-2008, 01:18
Seems to me like CR are very important against daemons.

Nothing will take care of daemons like 3 ranks+banner+outnumber.

As an Ogre player, it is tough to meet a new army that works kind of the same way: fast, hard on the charge and lots of little units.

Daemons are hard to beat with CR as they are rather stable, alot less crumbling then for undead. They are also better at generating CR so its not that easy to win with large cheap units.

The main weakness is the high costs. So range and number of units to generate flanking opertunities would be the best counters, I think.

Rank&Foul
14-05-2008, 02:24
the burny sword of burning (3+ to cast with a re-roll? I'd buy that for a dollar!

great robocop reference, peter weller's ears are burning.

Rank&Foul
14-05-2008, 06:13
Daemons are hard to fight because many of their units can't be flanked. As far as CR goes they generate pretty good CR. For example, the nurgle banner that adds + 1 to CR for every Poison wound inflicted. So with the Herald, Palanquin, and 4 plaguebs chances are they get plus 2 CR. With T4, regen, and ward this is a unit that you do not want a piece of. Plus they've got filthy papa n as support and scouting swarms of little chaos turds to march block and harass.

Max zero
15-05-2008, 06:37
Daemons are hard to beat with CR as they are rather stable, alot less crumbling then for undead. They are also better at generating CR so its not that easy to win with large cheap units.

The main weakness is the high costs. So range and number of units to generate flanking opertunities would be the best counters, I think.

Yes and no. Daemons tend to take slightly fewer casualties from CR but are more effected by unlucky dice rolls.

eg Say a Undead unit loses a combat by 1. That unit takes one wound.

Now take a Daemon unit that loses by 1. That unit now has to take a break test against lvl 6 (assuming no general nearby) to determine the wounds taken. Now they could roll 6 or less and take no wounds or they could roll 11 or 12 and take 5 or 6 wounds. On average they will roll 7 and take one wound just like the Undead but the potential is always there for a blowout.

Overall for small combat defeats (1-3 CR) Undead tend to do better but for bigger defeats Daemons are generally better.

Although Daemons can boost their ld, unlike Undead, Undead tend to be better at absorbing wounds.

So overall it tends to be a wash.

Your Mum Rang
15-05-2008, 10:07
You can prevent that with a decent BSB.

My army actually wins through static CR. I have 2 large blocks of Plaguebeaers and a block of Daemonettes. I just get shot up instead.

How will people deal with Bloodthristers set up with Dark Insanity?

Avian
15-05-2008, 10:42
He's no more protected from bolt thrower fire than Bloodthirsters without Dark Insanity, is he? ;)

Emeraldw
15-05-2008, 12:28
He's no more protected from bolt thrower fire than Bloodthirsters without Dark Insanity, is he? ;)

lol, I love how no matter how nasty or powerful people call the new greater daemons, the question still remains, how do you expect to survive a cannon ball to the face?

Your Mum Rang
15-05-2008, 14:49
I wan't aware that people placed their GD's in the face of cannons :P

I refer to him having a boatload of attacks that can demolish even a fully ranked unit.

Emeraldw
15-05-2008, 14:59
I wan't aware that people placed their GD's in the face of cannons :P

I refer to him having a boatload of attacks that can demolish even a fully ranked unit.

It's hard to avoid all the warmachines against a dwarf with 4 and has a hill

Your Mum Rang
15-05-2008, 15:05
Good point :D

Shamfrit
15-05-2008, 15:33
I've learnt the extreme value of Warpfire Throwers in a Skaven Army.

Take out their flamers with Jezzails and Warp Lightning, then move in to make sweet necrotic burgers out of the Plaguebearers!

Znail
15-05-2008, 16:57
I wan't aware that people placed their GD's in the face of cannons :P

I refer to him having a boatload of attacks that can demolish even a fully ranked unit.
Dark Insanty isnt that great. Its so random that he can lose to a unit of peasants if he is unlucky on the roll. So while he can win against a ranked unit, he can also lose spectacularily and with such an expensive unit that isnt that good.

isidril93
15-05-2008, 17:04
the only reason i saw that dark insanity was good was on a daemon prince since it only has 5 attacks and if i roll lucky and get flaming sword of rhuin i would get 2d6+3 s8 hitting on a 2+, and i thought what greater daemon can survive that

but then i looked again and guess what...the daemon prince cant get it!