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DeathlessDraich
09-05-2008, 20:10
These are possible rules ambiguities and suggestions off the top of my head for the new Daemon book.

Suggestions ending with a ? are debatable and apologies for the typos.

As usual, feel free to criticise and point out any errors.
I shall update the list as contributors mention other ambiguities.
Where there is a debate I shall mention all sides of the argument.
Finally, I shall update the list after corrections and various suggestions

Thank you in advance.


Daemonic

1) Instability

a) BRB effects are applicable but whether the general’s Ld can be used is not as certain. It depends on the interpretation of ‘Leadership based tests’.
b) Rolling a double 1 (Insane Courage) has no effect on Daemonic Instability. It is still possible to lose more than 10 wounds from Daemonic Instability.


2) Changeling

Against multi stat models he swaps WS, S, T etc with any model component e.g. Toughness of the machine of a warmachine but Attacks and Strength of the Orc bully,
OR S and T of a Dragon but WS and I of the character?


3) Karanak

Since he singles out a model before deployment he could single out Assassins?, Ambushing or Tunnelling models etc.


Magic

1) Lore of Tzeentch

Flickering Fire and Firestorm are not Flaming attacks since this designation is not used.
If however, a unit of Horrors or Lord of Change casts these spells they have to be Flaming attacks.


2) Glean Magic

This enables the caster to cast one of the target’s (must be a Wizard) spells.
This could include bound spells, Prayers, incantations plus bound spells from magic items which presumably will be cast at the specified Level.


3) Gift of Chaos

Magic resistance will work in the same way as TK Casket – use the unit with the highest MR.


4) Miasma of Pestilence

a) Does it affect Impact hits? – Open to the usual debate. I tend to think it should since there can be no impact without contact.
b) Effect on Steam Tank – none since a value of S is not specified.


5) Pit of Slime

Roll a dice against other forced or magical movement e.g. Waagh, TK Urgency, Impetuous Errant Knights etc


6) Stream of Corruption, Shrivelling Pox, Plague Wind

For characters on Monstrous mounts or chariots, multi- Toughness models etc – use the lowest Toughness?


7) Cacophonic Caress

Magic resistance requires a time warp. Best to roll 2D6 range before the dispelling process.


8) Succour

a) ‘Subsequent round of combat’ in this case means ‘ensuing or following combat’ instead of future round of combat.
b) Against a unit that could split into 2 or more units e.g. containing characters, if only the character is left, the spell ends as the character is a new unit and not originally targeted?


Army List

1) BSB
No restrictions on equipment whatsoever.


2) Flamers
US 2 or 1?


3) Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster etc

EDIT: Characters and Monsters! as in pg 30


4) Special characters

There are none designated! Some characters like Kairos etc are unique for any Daemon army and probably should be treated in the same way as Special characters


EDIT (Fulgrim)
5) SKULLTAKER and EPIDEMIUS are NOT "Heralds". The rules on page-30 restrict HERALDS of one god from joining a unit of another god.
Since Epidemius and Skulltaker are NOT Heralds, they are not bound by this restriction. Thus you can put Skulltaker into a unit of Plaguebearers, if you wanted to, or Epidemius into a unit of Bloodletters or Daemonettes.


Daemonic Gifts

1) Obsidian Armour

EDIT (FULGRIM)
a) Can be combined with the Bloodthirster’s heavy armour Or maybe not.
b)A magic lance should still function as a normal lance. Similarly a magical great weapon will still function as a GW. Killing Blow, Poisoned attacks etc conferred by a magic weapon should be negated.


2) Spell Destroyer
The spell is destroyed completely. All wizards, friend or foe, will lose knowledge of the spell for the duration of the battle. Debatable


3) Staff of change

a) If multiple wounds are inflicted which slays the model, the ‘slain instantly effect’ occurs only once
If the model is slain and then lives again through magic. - Green Knight , Carstein Ring etc, they are not slain again.
EDIT (Fulgrim)
b) Some players may regard the Staff as a second hand weapon. It is a 2nd hand weapon but I don't see that as qualifying for the 2 HW rule


4) Temptator

The enemy character that fails his Ld test has to “Direct his attacks” at friendly or enemy models/units in base contact only. This however is not limited to close combat attacks.

a) If the enemy character is in a challenge, the challenge rules unfortunately seem to indicate that he is still in base contact with other models!
Therefore he may be directed to attack other models not in the challenge!?

b) All magic spells, bound spells, special attack and shooting of the enemy character in addition to close combat attacks will be directed at appropriate enemy or friendly models.

c) It is impossible for a lone or multi-component model to direct these attacks on himself?

d) It is uncertain how the controlling player can decide that there are no ‘suitable targets’ for a lone enemy model.

e) This will affect models with special attacks but not attacks from various components of the character model e.g. Sword Gnoblers, Spites but not a Dragon etc?



5) Allure
Will still affect Sword Gnoblars, Spites, attacks which are rebounded etc but only one Ld test is needed?


6) Daemonic Robes
Better than 3+ = a Dice roll less 3+. No effect if a dice roll is not needed.


7) Enrapturing Gaze
The whole unit is affected i.e The unit cannot use a character’s Ld who is not in base contact with the bearer or use the General’s Ld but can use a BSB within range or in the unit.


8) Iridescent Corona
Does it affect Impact hits? – Open to the usual debate. I tend to think it should since there can be no impact without contact.


9) Nurgle Rot
This affects both players’ magic phases


10) Pestilent
a) Only one Toughness test should be taken per group of equal Initiative e.g. 2 wounds inflicted by 4 models in base contact incurs only 1 Toughness test

b) Problem with numerous attacks of equal Initiative from different units or unit with a character of the same Initiative.
Either the bearer or the enemy could be slain before the effects are fully resolved.
The ‘rebounding wound’ has to be tested one unit at a time – i.e. Toughness test is taken by one unit before the wounds from the next unit (of same/different Initiative) is resolved.

c) The roll to wound process cannot be modified to rolling 1 D6 at a time as attacks of equal Initiative are simultaneous.



11) Soul Hunger

In keeping with the present FAQs ‘round of combat’, any overrun or pursuit into an enemy in an unresolved combat will not benefit from the re-rolls.


12) Siren song

“Able to charge = able to charge successfully”?
Measurements have to be made before charge response but this will (unfairly?) benefit the charged unit.


13) Torment blade

Multi unit combat:
When several wounds are inflicted, the models chosen should be taken from those in base contact initially and then roll a dice to see which models further back are affected.


Daemonic Icons

EDIT (Fulgrim)
1) Icons are not Magical Standards. Therefore an army can have several icons of the same type.
Like Daemonic gifts multiples of the same icon are disallowed

2) Icon of Endless War

D6” is not moved for a failed charge


3) Icon of Sorcery

The +1 to cast adds +1 to bound spell levels of Horrors.


4) Standard of Chaos

Enemy Daemons are also Stubborn


5) Standard of Binding

Only the 8 Lores of the BRB can be chosen

Grimtuff
09-05-2008, 20:16
In regards to number 3 in the Army List section. Have a read of page 30 ;)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
10-05-2008, 18:55
I have several responses Draich, and will do them number by number - some things I agree with you on and will note that as well. I'll also add a few ambiguities which myself and other Legionnaries on The Daemonic Legion forum have noted in recent weeks leading up to the release of the Spearhead and formal launch on May-10th.

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DAEMONIC

1) Of course you can use the General's Leadership for Instability Tests ! And of course it can combo with the Battle Standard, the same as it would for any other army. I didn't find that ambiguous or uncertain and neither have any of my opponents.

Part (b) is accurate. I don't think rolling double-1's has any "auto-pass" effect for Daemons - well...at least it doesn't seem that way from their small example in the Daemon Book. Hmmm (thinking). . . Note this could be something the writers felt was "obvious" as in, "no matter what your army, or what your rules, if you roll double-1's you ALWAYS auto-pass, even if you would normally not pass the roll because you lost combat by 15 points or something crazy like that".

Perhaps they'll FAQ this if someone asks them or Direwolf, etc. ?




2) I would think he has to swap stats with ONE part of the model...his choice of course...not pick and choose which particular stats he likes the best. IE..if he takes a Star Dragon...he can get that STR-7...but he also would be limited (if he took it) to their Initiative-2 ...he can take the Elf Prince's Initiative, and the Dragon's STR, Tough, etc.

Note that he doesn't HAVE to take all of the stats that he is swapping...this might be different from Van Horstman's Speculum rules. He could choose to take the Weapon Skill, Strength, and Toughness of a Star Dragon, for instance, but still keep his own Initiative-3 value, as it is better than the Init-2 the Dragon has.


3) Karanak: If it's "before deployment" - you would think so....but do the Assasins rules suggest you are allowed to "hide" the fact that they are in your army from your opponent ? Or MUST you make it clear to them that "okay, I'm placing my Assassin's now... ?" As long as you, the Daemon player, know about them...I'd say Karanak could pick them as his quarry (though most of the time I'd think you would want to pick their General / Mage-Lord / etc. - which is the point behind Karanak's fluff anyways...)



MAGIC

1) Umm...it's true that Flickering Fire and, in fact, ALL the Spells from the Lore of Tzeentch are not Flaming Attacks....but there is no reason you can come up with using the rulebook or precedent from other armies, units, etc. that would say that when a Horror unit or Lord of Change casts the spells that they suddenly "become Flaming". ;)

Just because a unit itself has Flaming "close-combat attacks", which is all the Tzeentch Daemons in the new book...does NOT mean that their Magical Spells automatically become flaming as well.

If this was the case, you would have to believe that a Lord of Change that has taken Master of Sorcery (Daemonic Gift) and chosen to know all spells from the Lore of Death, could use the Spell "Steal Soul" (IIRC) on a Treeman Ancient...and because it would "become" a Flaming Steal Soul (:rolleyes:), you could absorb DOUBLE Wounds, instead of just 1.

That's never been how it's played before...so it would not be how it is played in this case either. The physical attacks of the Tzeentch Daemons are Flaming...not the magic spells they cast (unless the spell description says so like Fireball, Burning Gaze, etc).


2) Glean Magic - yes I agree with your comments on this spell, except I am not sure you can cast BOUND spells that a Wizard is holding. I think it has to be a "spell that is known to that Wizard" and by that they mean "in the Wizard's head" - ie something he has rolled for or otherwise has naturally (like Ruination of Cities for Lord Kroak, etc.). They will probably FAQ this point for us though.


3) Gift of Chaos - Hmmm...interesting. Normally I would say that common-sense would dictate that since you roll for the number of hits and strength of the hits for EACH unit, seperately, that you would/should use the Magic Resistance of each SEPARATE unit as well.

It seems bizarre that one single unit with Magic Resistance (3) that is being hit with the spell, suddenly transfers that Magic Resistance to the other 3 units of humble Spearmen or such, which have NO Magic Resistance.



4) Miasma - I'm with you on the Impact Hits idea. You have to be "in contact" with the enemy to have the Impact Hits happen - so TECHNICALLY you'd say "yes" it should affect them - BUT...I can see GW saying that it's effects are supposed to be against Living Creatures only (Miasma/Nurgle/etc.) and thus it wouldn't make a Chariot "weaker" too. Though you never know with GW, of late (points to recent series of FAQ's released last week...).

b) - I don't see why it would not affect a Steam Tank though, going by RAW (going by RAW it should also affect the Chariot's, even though I'm saying "in theory" the spell is probably only working on living beings). It says WS-STR-TOUGH-INIT-ATTACKS are "reduced to 1"...for all enemy models in base-to-base with the Daemon that has cast the spell.

So...whether or not the Steam Tank HAS a "Strength value" - if it has ANY of those listed values, they are reduced to "1" (Toughness is the big one for the Steam Tank). It would still get its Armor Saves, of course, but it would be easier to wound it as we can assume the Miasma has corroded its hull armor and is literally eating away at the inches of protection it normally would have.



5) Pit of Slime - it USED to be (didn't it) that the "last casting" of a movement spell would "Break" the effects of the spell before it. IE..if you "Slimed" a unit with this spell in YOUR Magic Phase...the enemy could use "The Wolf Hunts" or "Unseen Lurker" to make them move "magically" in his turn, and thus ignore the effects of your spell ?

True/False ? Rolling off for it would be interesting and a bonus to the spell since it would give you a 50/50 chance of having it still trap the enemy unit, even if they have used a movement spell to try and free them.


6) Nurgle Toughness Spells - I would assume you would use the Toughness value of each individual part of the model (that would be the most sensible). I know GW has said to use the "highest value" at times, but that is usually when the model has NO listed value for the test you are being required to take (like a Chariot trying to avoid a Giant's Thump with Club thing, IIRC).

If a Rider is on a Chariot..and that combined unit is hit with a Stream of Corruption....I'd say the Chariot should do a Toughness Test on T-4, or 5, or whatever it has, and if it fails, it takes a Wound.

Then the Character riding it, if he's also hit by the Template, should also take a Toughness Test on his own individual Toughness value to see if he, himself, is harmed by the acidic bile, etc. from the attack.



7) Agreed on Cacophonic Caress // Magic Resistance // When best to roll...



8) Succour of Slaanesh/Chaos - is just saying "the round of combat following this Magic Phase in which you have just cast the spell" - when they say "subsequent round of combat". They just made it less clear than they could have, which is par for the course with GW, it seems.

Note that a character in a unit is part of the unit and is affected by all spells that affect the unit. So if he's in the unit when Succour is cast...even if the rest of the unit is killed off and he's still standing there, he will still benefit from the effects of it.... because it is not a Remains in Play spell, and the Big Red Rulebook only describes having to choose which part of a unit/character combo is retaining a spell's effects IF it's a "Remains in Play spell" that is affecting them.

* * * Note that this is why Acquiesence is so great for Slaanesh. If an enemy unit is in range, and has a Vampire Lord in it, for example....and you cast Acquiesence on that unit. ALL the models in the unit...Vamp Lord and rank and file are going to be "affected by Stupidity for the rest of the game"...the Lord cannot try to "leave" the unit and make the spell effect end or have to force the Slaanesh player to choose which part (Lord or Rank and File) is still affected by the spell because it is NOT a Remains in Play spell...it simply has the duration "for the rest of the game", which is incredible ! * * *



ARMY LIST


1) Agree on BSB

2) Flamers - interesting. I'd say they are just Unit Strength 1...as per the Unit Strength value chart in the book. In this sense they would be like a normal Hero/Lord on foot..even if they are a 3-Wound model, their UNIT STRENGTH is still US-1.

3) Daemon Prince / Monsters - Page 30 of the new book is very specific. They are considered Characters AND Monsters...and therefore cannot join units. This also means they would be affected by things that affect BOTH Characters and/or Monsters...in theory....like the Collar of Zorga, etc.

4) Special Characters - true...none are CALLED "special characters" in the book. The only thing they say is "your army may include only 1 Skulltaker // Kairos Fateweaver // etc." This would be interesting in tournaments if they banned "Special Characters" and you tried to argue that Skulltaker is NOT a "Special Character" since he's never called that in the book....but I think if you tried this...the other Tourney people would beat you with their army books for being a gamey dork :p


DAEMONIC GIFTS


1) Obsidian Armor - Umm...not sure about this combining with the Heavy Armor of the Bloodthirster. If so...then the Armor of Khorne (15-pts) would also combine with the Heavy Armor and would lead to the Thirster having an astounding 1+ Armor Save ??? Come on....that can't be the designers intent. Also...keep in mind the wording for Obsidian/Armor of Khorne says "the Daemon has a 3+ Armor Save" - it doesn't say "the Daemon's existing Armor Save, if any, is increased by +3" - which would be different. Thoughts ?


b) Yes, lances on the charge would still be lances +2 STR, Great Weapons would still add their basic +2 STR, etc. - only "extra/magical" effects would be negated by the Obsidian Armor.



2) I don't think Spell Destroyer says anything about YOUR Wizards losing knowledge of the spell, does it ? It says only that you target an ENEMY spell and I think the context is clear that it's talking about the ENEMY losing knowledge of the spell that was just cast. And ONLY that single enemy you have targeted, not ALL enemy Wizards.



3) Staff of Change - I agree with your commentary. Here's an additional thing to consider. It's something we've been debating vigorously over at The Daemonic Legion site. The Lord of Change is listed in his profile/entry as having "Talons (Hand Weapon)" - as his natural equipment/gift/gear.


The Staff of Change, unique amongst the Gifts for Tzeentch Daemons, is listed as "Staff of Change: Hand weapon. This staff....etc. etc."

Most are saying that if you take this gift...and remember it's a GIFT, not a magic item so normal rules for Magic Items don't apply here...it would combine with the default "Hand Weapon (Talons)" that the Lord of Change has, and would result in 2-Hand Weapons = +1 Attack bonus, per the standard rules in the Big Red Book // Bone Giant ruling // Avatar of Death for Vampires // etc.

This would result in the Lord of Change going up to 6-attacks, which could be useful, though he would still be paying 60+ points of his Gift Allowance for the Staff, which does not seem all that unreasonable, when you think about it.




4) Temptator - I agree with most of your comments there. The only thing is...it would seem you should make the Temptator test even before Challenges are declared. If the enemy model passes the test..THEN it is free to do whatever it wants, including declaring a Challenge on the Daemon, etc.


Obviously, Suitable Targets means models in base-to-base with the Controlled enemy character that they could "legally" launch an attack against, if they were an enemy model.

Example: Rank and File - Elf Prince - Rank and File

If this was the formation, and the Elf Prince was Controlled by the Temptator effect, it seems quite clear that what they mean by "suitable target" would be either of the two Rank and File Elves to his left / right.


----

5) - Allure of Slaanesh - I'd say only one leadership test is needed. Not one for every individual component of the model. If that was the case, you would have to roll several times when a Chariot hit you..once for the Steeds, once for the Crew, once for the Character - etc. etc. - it becomes too complicated and I think GW intends it to be just one Test for the "combined model / character"



6) Daemonic Robes - nothing can wound the Daemon on better than 3+. Thus a Cannonball, which normally would be wounding a Greater Daemon (Toughness-6) on a 2+. Because of the Robes...the roll is only going to wound him on a 3+.

As for things that Auto-Wound....I would have agreed with you a week ago...but with the new (Silly) ruling that things that Auto-Hit a target must now "Roll Off" against something that has a particular "To-hit" rule like that Annoyance of Nettlings for the Treeman Ancient .... I am not so sure.

Using that ruling as precedence, I would think you would roll off to see which thing takes effect...the "auto-wound" aspect of the attack, or the "only Wounds on 3+" effect of the Robes.




7) I think it has to be "the whole unit" as well - they just worded it stupidly, as usual. There is no precedent for part of unit using one Leadership value and another part using a better one ...so how could it be effective at all, if you DIDN'T prevent the entire unit from using the better Leadership of the General, etc. if he's in range ? ? ?



8) I-Corona - I agree with you on this one / Impact Hits / etc.


9) Nurgle's Rot - Yup, both players magic phases.


10) Pestilent Mucous - It doesn't seem that complicated. Your Greater Daemon is wounded 2 times by 4 models in base to base. After determining if he's passed/failed his saves / regen / etc. - you find out ...yep, he's actually taking two Wounds off his starting value. Okay...two wounds have been caused. The models in base-to-base with you must now make TWO (2) Toughness Tests since TWO (2) Wounds were inflicted (this represents the spray of acids and filth that come out of the Daemon when his skin is pierced, etc.).



11) Soul Hunger: I agree with you on this one.


12) Siren Song is one big Headache ! :rolleyes: FAQ is definitely needed to explain exactly how they intended for it to work. I am in the "a failed charge is a possibility with this Gift", camp since otherwise it is almost useless against many enemy units that have movement/charge values of 10-inches or less (they would never be in range to complete the charge and thus the power would be almost useless against them since you'd have to be SO close to activate the power, that you'd end up getting charged by 2-3 enemy units anyways in your turn - hardly effective for the Daemon Player in that respect).



13) Torment Blade - your idea seems reasonable.


* * * Note that Torment Blade is another of those Gifts that has been hotly debated on The Daemonic Legion, even more so than the Staff of Change. You see, the Keeper of Secrets is listed as having: Claws (Hand Weapon) , in its profile entry. The Torment Blade only costs 5-points, but is listed as:

"Torment Blade Hand weapon. Models that are wounded....etc. etc."


THUS, many are arguing that if you take Torment Blade, it results in the Keeper having "Two Hand Weapons" and he will thus get a +1 Attack bonus and go up to Attacks-7. It seems, going by RAW, that this is exactly what would happen. Thoughts ? * * *




DAEMONIC ICONS


1) - Does it say you don't move the extra inches for a failed charge ? If not, I'd say you WOULD move them, whether you actually contacted the enemy or not (including the bonus movement). You would just move at half-movement, plus the D6 additional inches.


2) Icon of Sorcery - your situation is impossible. Horrors have no Bound Spells. The only one they CAN have is the Banner of Change - which contains a Bound Spell in it at Power-Level-3. The problem is...if your Standard Bearer takes the Icon of Sorcery, he cannot also take the Banner of Change....so your situation where there would be both of them in the same unit / affecting the same unit is impossible.


3) I think it's clear they mean JUST your Daemons as most of the time (take Elves for example) if something affects BOTH sides of the battle, the rules will generally say so (Standard of Balance, etc). They will have to FAQ it though, to satisfy RAW fiends.



4) Great Standard of Sundering - no...you can choose Lores other than those in the Big Red Book. All it says is "Choose a Lore of Magic" - this could be the Lore of Vampires, for example.

Apparently the intent (soon to be clarified in a GW/Direwolf FAQ) is for ALL magic lists to be affectable, even if they don't use the word "Lore" in their title. High Magic is a valid target, as is Gut Magic, as is Skaven Magic, etc. and the FAQ is going to state that clearly.


--------------------------


* Additional Comments / Thoughts *

- Icons are not Magic Items/Banners - and may be taken multiple times (even the same Icon) as they are listed more as "Unit Upgrades" anyways in the unit listings.


So you could have 3 units with the Icon of Sorcery or the Icon of Seeping Decay in the same army.


------------

SKULLTAKER and EPIDEMIUS are NOT "Heralds" - in their rules, their fluff story, etc. Nowhere in the book does it call them Heralds. The rules on page-30 restrict HERALDS of one god from joining a unit of another god.

Since Epidemius and Skulltaker are NOT Heralds, they are not bound by this restriction. Thus you can put Skulltaker into a unit of Plaguebearers, if you wanted to, or Epidemius into a unit of Bloodletters or Daemonettes.

* note that they don't have any special abilities that they would pass onto the unit except for Skulltaker's Magic Resistance (2), but it's a neat option, if you wanted to try it out for some reason *

MrBigMr
10-05-2008, 20:00
I got one question about the book.
Does the Marks ("dedicated to *insert god*") on Princes just mean that I pay 35pts. for the ability to take god specific gifts and have to use the lore of that god? There's not other gain from this (+1 I, A, T or an upgraded Ward, like one would find in 40K Princes)? Seeing that there's plenty of good gifts available to the Prince already, I'm sure as hell not going to waste any points on such trivial things. Especially as I want to use other magic than the daemon lores (in the case of my princess: fire).

Oenghus
10-05-2008, 20:25
2) Glean Magic

This enables the caster to cast one of the target’s (must be a Wizard) spells.
This could include bound spells, Prayers, incantations plus bound spells from magic items which presumably will be cast at the specified Level.



One comment re: glean magic and incantations. The spell is immediately cast at the base casting level. The base casting level of an incantation is 0 (they always go off, even if a -2 to cast ability would mean that the incantation was cast at a Power Level of -1). The glean magic spell would allow the gleaner to cast an incantation --- which the Tomb King player could then dispel on a 1+. Have I vastly misread the rule, or is that correct?

isidril93
10-05-2008, 20:33
i think that one dumb thing is that a keeper cant have many armed monstrocity...i mean it does have many arms and not that many attack, a bloodthirster has more!!!

CactusCheff
10-05-2008, 21:14
12) Siren song
Is it just me, who reads this gift so it is ridiculously overpowered? Which part of the sentence quote; "Nominate one enemy within 20" of the Deamon - this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules." says the selected enemy must be able to charge the deamon with Siren song gift? Doesn't it just say able to charge something in deamon players army? So that the gift can be used to force an automatic failed charge as the enemy unit tries to complete it's charge agains Siren song deamon who might be behind the unit. Definitly needing FAQ.

Atrahasis
10-05-2008, 21:19
Siren Standard:
The line "The standard has no effect if the charge is out of range" makes no sense at all in the context of the banner.

The sequence is:

<Charge declaration phase>
1. Declare charge(s)
2. Declare reaction(s) (which for the unit charged by Siren Standard must be hold)
3. Measure for fear, take test if required. Reaction changes to flee if failed.
<Compulsory Moves>
4. If fear failed, move fleeing unit
<Move chargers>
5. Move charger

At no point does the charge being in or out of range affect the banner, since no measurements are made until after charge reactions are declared. If the charged unit causes fear, then no measurements are made until Move Chargers, which is far too late for the discovery to matter.

Sigmar knows what they meant when they wrote it.

CactusCheff
10-05-2008, 21:29
Siren Standard:
The line "The standard has no effect if the charge is out of range" makes no sense at all in the context of the banner.

The sequence is:

<Charge declaration phase>
1. Declare charge(s)
2. Declare reaction(s) (which for the unit charged by Siren Standard must be hold)
3. Measure for fear, take test if required. Reaction changes to flee if failed.
<Compulsory Moves>
4. If fear failed, move fleeing unit
<Move chargers>
5. Move charger

At no point does the charge being in or out of range affect the banner, since no measurements are made until after charge reactions are declared. If the charged unit causes fear, then no measurements are made until Move Chargers, which is far too late for the discovery to matter.

Sigmar knows what they meant when they wrote it.

It is there because of Stand and shoot reaction. Seekers decleare a charge and enemy want's to stand and shoot to which you say I have Siren standard you must only hold. Then you check if are at charge range and if not enemy could let fly against poor Seekers.

Atrahasis
10-05-2008, 21:35
Except that you have to declare a hold reaction, which is done before measuring. There is no provision to change.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-05-2008, 22:39
Your sequence is incorrect, Atrahasis. A fear-causing unit does not force a test until it is found to be in range (BRB, page 50). While the siren standard doesn't explicitly include a provision to change, weight of precedent is pretty strong: the rules for both fear and S&S involve invalid charge reactions getting changed (fear can make hold become flee once you're found to be in range and fail the roll, and S&S becomes hold if you're found to be within 1/2 of charge move).

I think the best way to resolve it is to allow the charged player to declare whatever they want if they think the charge is out of range and have it shift to "hold" if it turns out that they neither involuntarily flee nor are out of charge range.

MrBigMr
10-05-2008, 23:00
I think the "enemy chooses what to do, if in range, then force Hold" scenario sounds best. I mean, it's like AP in 40K. While a weapon with a greater AP than the armour is used, it doesn't mean the armour is ignored for the purpose of rules (such as an apothecary healing that doesn't work on models wounded by weapons that ignore armour), merely that the armour save fails automaticly.

So the opponent would choose normaly, but the standard over rules it with the Hold. If the range isn't enough, the chosen reaction stays in affect.

Right?

decker_cky
10-05-2008, 23:38
I don't think you can use the sirens song on someone far out of range because an unreasonable charge is illegal. That means using it on a unit with MV7 that's 19" away doesn't work, because they can't "charge according to the normal Warhammer rules."

The two handweapons rulings are sketchy as hell. If GW follows the RaW on their ruling, they'll allow it (giving all slaanesh heralds an extra attack to go with the sirens song). If they go with RaI, it won't go through.

Atrahasis
10-05-2008, 23:52
Your sequence is incorrect, Atrahasis. A fear-causing unit does not force a test until it is found to be in range (BRB, page 50).Range for fear/terror-causing chargers is measured at the end of "declare charges" just before "rally fleeing troops". See the 7th ed FAQ.


While the siren standard doesn't explicitly include a provision to change, weight of precedent is pretty strong: the rules for both fear and S&S involve invalid charge reactions getting changed (fear can make hold become flee once you're found to be in range and fail the roll, and S&S becomes hold if you're found to be within 1/2 of charge move).You might as well argue that since 2 situations (4 actually, including charges resulting from frenzy/compulsory movement) explicitly say you can change your reaction that you can change your reaction at will on a Wednesday, despite the rulebook not saying a thing about it.

It may well be that the intent was to allow missile troops to S&S against Siren Standard chargers if they are found to be out of range, but the rules fall way way short of actually allowing it. It seems like an exceedingly convoluted situation to include that sentence for though.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-05-2008, 03:50
When every single comparable situation is resolved a given way, then it should probably work that way on Wednesday, too.

Atrahasis
11-05-2008, 11:19
Are you honestly arguing that I can change my charge reaction at will on a Wednesday?

DeathlessDraich
11-05-2008, 13:57
I have several responses Draich, and will do them number by number - some things I agree with you on and will note that as well. I'll also add a few ambiguities which myself and other Legionnaries on The Daemonic Legion forum *

Thank you. Will add your suggestions asap.



DAEMONIC

1) Of course you can use the General's Leadership for Instability Tests ! And of course it can combo with the Battle Standard, the same as it would for any other army. I didn't find that ambiguous or uncertain and neither have any of my opponents.

pg 82 - General's Ld must be used for "Leadership based tests"

The ambiguity is caused by the usage of 'Leadership value' - similar to Casket and Banshee.
Whether Daemonic Instability is a Leadership test or not is unfortunately not specifically stated and I can foresee some players challenging this.
Previous rules do indeed allow the use of the general's Ld but I prefer to look at the rules in the eyes of a beginner without any reference to previous rules.



that when a Horror unit or Lord of Change casts the spells that they suddenly "become Flaming". ;)

Both Horrors and LOC have Flaming attacks.
Whether this makes their spells Flaming as well is a debatable point - hence my inclusion in the list.





3) Gift of Chaos - Hmmm...interesting. Normally I would say that common-sense would dictate that since you roll for the number of hits and strength of the hits for EACH unit, seperately, that you would/should use the Magic Resistance of each SEPARATE unit as well.

It seems bizarre that one single unit with Magic Resistance (3) that is being hit with the spell, suddenly transfers that Magic Resistance to the other 3 units of humble Spearmen or such, which have NO Magic Resistance.

Maybe it should not be perceived as a transference. The affected unit simply uses its magic resistance and since MR is not cumulative, the highest MR value is taken




2) I don't think Spell Destroyer says anything about YOUR Wizards losing knowledge of the spell, does it ? It says only that you target an ENEMY spell and I think the context is clear that it's talking about the ENEMY losing knowledge of the spell that was just cast. And ONLY that single enemy you have targeted, not ALL enemy Wizards.


Spell Destroyer states that "the spell is lost". A clearer version would be "the opposing army/wizard loses knowledge of this spell"
OR
Maybe the spell is indeed lost - and every wizard friend or foe lose this spell.




Most are saying that if you take this gift...and remember it's a GIFT, not a magic item so normal rules for Magic Items don't apply here...it would combine with the default "Hand Weapon (Talons)" that the Lord of Change has, and would result in 2-Hand Weapons = +1 Attack bonus, per the standard rules in the Big Red Book // Bone Giant ruling // Avatar of Death for Vampires // etc.



This is an old debate which started with a Pistol as a handweapon.
To gain from the 2 HW rule, the rules must state or use this phrase specifically. Many models have access to several handweapons but do not benefit from the 2 HW rule.
A knife is a handweapon but having throwing knives can only gain from the 2 HW rule if that phrase is specifically used.

The same applies for Flaming attacks - until that phrase is used a fire is not necessarily a flaming attack.





- Icons are not Magic Items/Banners - and may be taken multiple times (even the same Icon) as they are listed more as "Unit Upgrades" anyways in the unit listings.


SKULLTAKER and EPIDEMIUS are NOT "Heralds" - in their rules, their fluff story, etc. Nowhere in the book does it call them Heralds. The rules on page-30 restrict HERALDS of one god from joining a unit of another god.

Since Epidemius and Skulltaker are NOT Heralds, they are not bound by this restriction. Thus you can put Skulltaker into a unit of Plaguebearers, if you wanted to, or Epidemius into a unit of Bloodletters or Daemonettes.

* note that they don't have any special abilities that they would pass onto the unit except for Skulltaker's Magic Resistance (2), but it's a neat option, if you wanted to try it out for some reason *


Adding these two.
Thanks

Atrahasis
11-05-2008, 14:02
Whether Daemonic Instability is a Leadership test or not is unfortunately not specifically stated and I can foresee some players challenging this.

DI is a "special kind of break test". I don't think anyone is going to be able to challenge using the general's Ld for a break test with a straight face.


This is an old debate which started with a Pistol as a handweapon.
To gain from the 2 HW rule, the rules must state or use this phrase specifically. Many models have access to several handweapons but do not benefit from the 2 HW rule.There is absolutely no support for either of these statements in the rules.

MrBigMr
11-05-2008, 14:10
What about the prince and his marks/dedications? I've spent few hours going through them the other day without much clarity. Are they nothing more than licensing fees for god specific things and do they limit me to the given lore?

DeathlessDraich
11-05-2008, 14:11
When every single comparable situation is resolved a given way, then it should probably work that way on Wednesday, too.


Are you honestly arguing that I can change my charge reaction at will on a Wednesday?

Movement sequence - Copyright Atrahasis :p many moons ago...with one or two additions from DD

i) Charge declaration,
ii) Test if the charged unit is a Fear Causer
iii) Charge Response
iv) Measurement of charge distance and distance check of frenzied chargers followed by auto-declaration of frenzied chargers and consequent charge responses.
v) Test if chargers cause Fear
vi) Rally fleeing troops
vii) Compulsory moves e.g. move fleers and declare any charges caused by other compulsory movement. Units that charge in this way e.g. due to Stupidity, Squigs, Spawns etc are normally Immune to Psychology so there is no need to repeat (ii) to (vi) but a charge response is necessary.
x) Remove destroyed/Caught fleers
xi) Declare EITW for all units who wish to do so
xii) Resolve movement of fleers from all EITW sequentially and remove or move fleers accordingly. xiii) Stand and shoot
xiv) Move chargers (or Panic from stand and shoot or stop if the Mount is slain)

But
Could we stick to the OQ please :)

Milney
11-05-2008, 16:57
12) Siren Song is one big Headache ! :rolleyes: FAQ is definitely needed to explain exactly how they intended for it to work. I am in the "a failed charge is a possibility with this Gift", camp since otherwise it is almost useless against many enemy units that have movement/charge values of 10-inches or less (they would never be in range to complete the charge and thus the power would be almost useless against them since you'd have to be SO close to activate the power, that you'd end up getting charged by 2-3 enemy units anyways in your turn - hardly effective for the Daemon Player in that respect).


There's an FAQ somewhere for the Dwarf banner which has the same effect saying that it has to be a charge they can make for the power to take effect (so in range, LOS, calculating terrain).

The 20" range isn't to keep your daemon safe whilst using it - it's so you can actually use it on flyers - otherwise they'd just skirt out of range of it. The intent with the gift isn't to make sure your daemon is "safe" - it's so you can pull weaker units out of position (for instance some sacrificial unit that was going to misdirect your over-run, pulling it onto your gribbly). This in turn has the added advantage of (if done correctly) blocking thier big hammer units from declaring charges due to the unit being in the way.

So no, no forcing auto-flees from forcing impossible charges. Let me just dig out the FAQ if I can remember where it was.

Oh, and besides - as other have pointed out - the BRB defines charges declared when they are obviously out-of-range as illegal, which would prevent it anyway.

UltimateNagash
11-05-2008, 18:36
Just a quick thing:

2) Changeling

Against multi stat models he swaps WS, S, T etc with any model component e.g. Toughness of the machine of a warmachine but Attacks and Strength of the Orc bully,
OR S and T of a Dragon but WS and I of the character?
Nope, it's one model. Even though they're mounted on the same base, they're seperate models as it were...
At least, that's how I would play it...

Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-05-2008, 19:57
To Milney:

Except the Siren Song is very much different from the Dwarf Banner, both in wording and execution.

Consider:

The Dwarf rune:

QUOTE
One use only... The rune is used during the enemy turn before they declare charges. Nominate one enemy unit within 20" of the rune user. The unit must be able to charge and reach the rune user or the unit he is with according to the normal rules. The enemy unit must either declare a charge against the rune user (and any unit he is with) or must flee in the Compulsory Movement phase as if it had failed a Panic test. This rune has no effect on units that are Immune to Psychology.



And correct me if I'm wrong, but I have it that the Siren Song says:

QUOTE
This gift is used once during the enemy turn, before charges are declared. Nominate one enemy within 20" of the Daemon – this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules. The target unit must either declare a charge against the Daemon (or the unit it is with) or immediately flee, exactly as if it had failed a Panic test.



So for Siren Song, the target must be able to charge, not that it must be able to charge and reach. The fact that the Dwarf rune specifically says "and reach" indicates that reaching is not necessarily a component of charging. The lack of "and reach" in Siren Song means that it's not necessary for the target unit to be able to reach the Daemon with the gift.

The only rule for being able to charge is found in the Rulebook FAQ:


QUOTE
A. The rules for charging on page 18 state: ‘When you declare a charge you must do so without measuring the distance to the target, you must rely on your estimate of the distance to ensure that your troops can reach their target’. Emphasis on the ‘ensure’. Therefore, declaring a charge that you know cannot be completed (like charging a unit 24" away) is cheating.

In cases where it's not obvious how far away a target unit is, the decision to charge or not is left to the conscience of the charging player (see also the ‘Awkward charges’ appendix). Our players, which are of course all sportsmen, will never declare a charge if they think their unit cannot complete the charge in order to gain an unfair advantage!



So it has to be close, and you can't know it will fail beforehand. As long as it's a reasonable charge that you'd be willing to let your opponent make, it goes.

And the only reason the Dwarf rune doesn't work on ItP units is because it specifically says it doesn't work on ItP units. Without the exception, Siren Song will work on ItP units, which is yet another difference between it and the Dwarf variant.

-----------------------------

Note too that in my view, the ENEMY player is NOT "Declaring a charge he knows he cannot complete" - his unit is being FORCED to charge due to the mind-affecting power of the Siren Song...ie, it's not a "normal charge" like him saying "I'll charge that Great Cannon 60-inches away with my Dwarf Warriors" which would CLEARLY not be in range, etc. and thus couldn't be done. In the case of Siren Song you are using a 1-use-only item on the enemy to make them either run away from you in fear, or charge suicidally at you, even if this would pull them out of their battle line, etc.

As I noted above..."and reach" is not a part of the rule wording for Siren Song, as it is for the Dwarf Rune...which would suggest (on the surface) that "reaching" is not a requirement in the case of Siren Song.

* And again - before you keep falling back on the Rulebook FAQ for 7th on this...remember the ENEMY player is NOT the one "declaring a charge he knows he cannot reach with" - he is being FORCED to either Flee/Charge by YOU and your 1-use-only Daemonic Gift - thus I would contend "normal" charge rules/restrictions/etc. wouldn't or shouldn't apply *

Milney
11-05-2008, 21:22
So for Siren Song, the target must be able to charge...

As much as you want to argue semantics, that phrase (if it is a direct quote) encompases all of the additional requirements that are explicitly stated for the Dwarf banner.

A target is obviously not able to make a charge if it is out of range, blocked by units, out of LOS etc.

So again, using it to force opponents to flee (due to impossible charge requirements) is both against the spirit and letter of the rules.

If we want to assume the "force" line of thought, then it would really be treated like a "Frenzy" charge; Use Ability - Measure to see if charge is in range - If Yes, opponent has choice of letting unit charge (assuming passes fear check etc.) or flee.

But that's just silly. Remember to apply some common sense to these things. Whilst the exact wording may be slightly different to the Dwarf item the effect and intent is pretty clearly the same (not to mention the Dwarf item was 6th Ed. so needed alot more clarification and the Demon ability is 7th Ed. and as such has had its wording streamlined).

Still, I'm unlikely to either play with or against Demons for a while (unless my two regular HoC opponents 'reroll' DoC out of desperation) so I'm happy to wait for an FAQ to be published, and if I do play someone who deliberately uses it to force impossible charges I'll just have to politely conceed there and then, take the massacre result and avoid playing them again.

DeathlessDraich
12-05-2008, 08:37
This is an old debate which started with a Pistol as a handweapon.
To gain from the 2 HW rule, the rules must state or use this phrase specifically. Many models have access to several handweapons but do not benefit from the 2 HW rule.
A knife is a handweapon but having throwing knives can only gain from the 2 HW rule if that phrase is specifically used.

The same applies for Flaming attacks - until that phrase is used a fire is not necessarily a flaming attack.




There is absolutely no support for either of these statements in the rules.

IIRC - you were the sole advocate that a single pistol translates into 2 handweapons:p

If you state that a model has 2 HW when its rules do not specifically state this, you set an unacceptable precedent for every special ability e.g. a model should have Poisoned attacks (from every T of Khaine Poison) etc etc - effectively adding non existent rules.
I can name several more examples.
plus the Flaming attacks example above

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 10:35
IIRC - you were the sole advocate that a single pistol translates into 2 handweapons:pThe Warhammer rules are not decided democratically. To quote Thoreau, "a man more right than his neighbours constitutes a majority of one".


If you state that a model has 2 HW when its rules do not specifically state this, you set an unacceptable precedent for every special abilityNo, you don't. That's idiotic straw man thinking.

The rules require that a model have two hand weapons to get +1 attack. That is all, no more, no less.

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 12:42
So am I to assume the Torment Blade doesn't grant an extra hand weapon bonus (damn, my pure Slaanesh really need everything it can get)? My frien says that since it has the "Hand Weapon" line, it means it replaces the original hand weapon of the model.

And is there any clarity on the Prince bit that I've been asking around? I know it's not a hot topic, but just something that has been bugging me.

hwd
12-05-2008, 12:51
2) Icon of Endless War

D6” is not moved for a failed charge






1) - Does it say you don't move the extra inches for a failed charge ? If not, I'd say you WOULD move them, whether you actually contacted the enemy or not (including the bonus movement). You would just move at half-movement, plus the D6 additional inches.



Once the charge is found to be out of range it is a failed charge. A failed charge is not a charge move. Thus the additional d6" to the charge move cannot be added as it is not a charge!

Its the same with all the other standards that add movement to a charge.

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 13:15
So am I to assume the Torment Blade doesn't grant an extra hand weapon bonus (damn, my pure Slaanesh really need everything it can get)? My frien says that since it has the "Hand Weapon" line, it means it replaces the original hand weapon of the model.It does not replace the hand weapon that the model is originally equipped with. As the rules stand, the model gains +1A.

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 16:42
It does not replace the hand weapon that the model is originally equipped with. As the rules stand, the model gains +1A.
Can I have that on black and white. A page number, reference and hopefully some exsamples as well, since "my friend" is pretty anal sometimes, especially if he's formed his own oppinion already (I know, I know, but at least you don't have to see him every god damn day at work. I can't imagine how he's so hot with the ladies when he's nerd to the bone. Just goes to show that women like a-holes.)


Oh, and while on the subject, is it clear if the magic banner thingy affects all magic lists, or just the 8 big ones? He's pretty sure that it's just the rulebook ones, but I want to be sure as if I take it, I would be using it against his Waaagh!s (little waaagh! in particular, as its his favourite and I would like to play too and not bitch with him about the rules).

Chaos Mortal
12-05-2008, 16:54
alot is made of the slannesh pinser + weapon thing... so if you are thinking the same way the GUO plague flail works in conjustion with the balesword for example?

DeathlessDraich
12-05-2008, 18:24
No, you don't. That's idiotic straw man thinking.
.

In the true Atrahasis abrasive fashion. :)

I'm not deigning to extend this discussion which is running away from the main topic.

Mr. BigMr , I suggest you do the same. Thanks

isidril93
12-05-2008, 18:36
awwww...now you guys ave got me confused over the torment blade...i mean it is a hand weapon but would it count as an additional hand weapon
the balesword does not say that it is a hand weapon so why would the troment blade?
and the torment blade is only useful against ultiwound models sice it needs to wound but anything dead is dead so it cant attack back any way

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 18:53
Mr. BigMr , I suggest you do the same. Thanks
Suggest I do what? Talk about the rules of the daemon armybook? Isn't that what I was doing? I missed the bit on the Great Standard of Sundering on the first page, but the Torment Blade is still open game. I'm sorry if my post got a little sidetracked, but it was better to put the full explanation on my reasons on it that have to explain for the next few posts why I need it like the way I need it.

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 19:01
The Torment Blade is a hand weapon.
The daemon already has a hand weapon.

Fighting with 2 hand weapons grants +1 attack.

1+1=2, not 1.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-05-2008, 20:21
See, I'm in agreement with Atrahasis on this. I think that's how Direwolf guys or GW will ultimately rule it, unless they claim it was a misprint, which makes little sense given that it's ONLY there for Staff of Change and Torment Blade...and no other weapons.


I think it's done as a way to get Daemon players to consider taking those gifts that otherwise they might pass over for things like Siren Song, Temptator, Tzeentch's Will, etc. Their effects are "eh" since, for Torment Blade it's only working on multi-wound models anyways (other ones would be dead from you hitting/wounding them/they fail their save, if any) ....so maybe they are basically considering the gift solely as "a +1 attack" gift.

Yes..it only costs 5-points, but it takes up 25% of your Daemonic Gift allowance for a Keeper (because no other gifts are less than 25 points for him)...and 50% of your gift allowance for a Herald of Slaanesh.


With Staff of Change it's even worse as if you take the Staff, you aren't able to take either of the "big ones" for Tzeentch: Twin Heads and Tzeentch's Will. This is huge too, and without a little perk like +1 attack, I don't think we'd EVER see Staff of Change being taken (we probably STILL won't see it be taken all that often, even WITH the +1 Attack bonus for the Lord of Change).


--------------------------

I think the basic logic that people are using to try to argue against the combo is "it can't POSSIBLY be 5 points for +1 Attack AND that special ability/effect - therefore, GW must have made a mistake and it can't be that's what they meant to happen."


I think GW, particularly with the recent FAQs, has shown a pattern of going specifically AGAINST "common sense" or "common interpretation" and gone with "this is what we wrote, so it's clear, even if not intended". - and leaving it at that.

If that's the likely path they will follow on these two Gifts, then 6 Attack Lord's of Change and 7 Attack Keeper's of Secrets will be a fully legitimate possibility when the FAQ is out.

decker_cky
12-05-2008, 23:32
Agreed. If you work through the rules in the BRB, knowing that the rules for magic items do not apply to the torment blade, it's pretty much 100% RAW that it gives the extra attack.

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 08:49
That's what it seems all right. Came across a heated argument on the subject and one person was kind enough to go through the case point by point.

1. In the rulebook it clearly states that a model with two hand weapons, gets an extra attack. Nothing about "additional hand weapon", which purely means that when purchasing it, you get "another" hand weapon to go with your current one. The wording is so mainly for the reason that you can't really buy the same item twice, right? I mean, if a model has heavy armour, you can't buy him heavy armour again. But an "additional" hand weapon, grants another hand weapon without contradicting the rules. And there are many models out there already armed with 2 hand weapons. Not hand weapon and additional hand weapon. And all those get an extra attack.

2. The torment blade is a hand weapon. It's a hand weapon, but has a different name and special abilities, so as not to confuse with the already standard hand weapon.

3. Torment blade is not a magical item/weapon/anything and as such is not bound by those rules.


Personally I can see why Slaanesh gets cheap attacks. It's because they need them. An S4 T3 herald for CC isn't really up to par with Khorne and Nurgle ones and need all the aid it can get. The Torment Blade seems like a good way to boost the thing that Slaanesh is good at, attacks, and granting some bonus (not being able to hit means they can'y pound our little T3 model to the ground) to aid in keeping it alive.

It's cheaper than many armed monstrosity, but as already pointed out, leaves plenty of empty space. I think it's a good way to get some more punch for my heralds and Prince.

----------------

Question.
If a model with Allure (lets say herald on its 25mm base) is facing, lets say Orcs. The herald would have 3 boyz bashing her, as one is in base to base and 2 are at the corners. Does every model have to roll for Ld. or do they roll as one? I mean, it says "models wishing to". At one point it would just mean that all attacking the herald would just make a normal Ld. test and attack or not attack, but on the other hand it sounds a little bit like every model would roll for it individually and those that pass get to strike and those that don't, don't.

Brian888
13-05-2008, 17:01
I have two questions regarding Epidemius' Tally.

1.) At a certain level of the Tally, spells from the Lore of Nurgle get a +2 bonus to cast. At the final level, spells from the Lore of Nurgle get "an additional +3 bonus to cast." Do these two bonuses stack, so that spells from the Lore of Nurgle at the highest Tally level get +5 to cast (whoah!), or does the +3 bonus replace the +2 bonus?

2.) Let's assume for the sake of argument that only the +3 bonus applies. The book lists the first spell in the Lore of Nurgle as being cast on a 3+. If Nurgle spellcasters automatically get a +3 bonus to spellcasting, does this mean they can cast that spell without having to roll a Power Die, or do you always have to roll a Power Die to cast a spell, regardless of the bonuses involved?

Milney
13-05-2008, 17:15
2.) Let's assume for the sake of argument that only the +3 bonus applies. The book lists the first spell in the Lore of Nurgle as being cast on a 3+. If Nurgle spellcasters automatically get a +3 bonus to spellcasting, does this mean they can cast that spell without having to roll a Power Die, or do you always have to roll a Power Die to cast a spell, regardless of the bonuses involved?

Page 107 of the BRB answers this explicitly.

Brian888
13-05-2008, 18:25
Page 107 of the BRB answers this explicitly.

I'm sorry; I didn't have my BRB handy, and I didn't remember that rule.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 12:18
It IS a cumulative +5 bonus though ...which is incredible...but not AS incredible as it might seem at first glance.

I would MUCH rather have the 40-K version of that chart where, instead of JUST Epidemius getting Regen on a 3+, it reads "ALL Nurgle followers/Daemons/etc. that have Feel no Pain (Regen), may use it on a 3+, instead of a normal 4+ roll".

Darn...why can't we have that in Fantasy ! ;) :p

------------

The reason I say the max bonus is not as good as it might seem at first is you have to figure it will be AT LEAST Turn-2/3 before you would ever get that many kills caused by Nurgle Daemons (CC, Spells, etc).

So it would be a benefit you would only be using for 2-3 turns, max.


The Heralds of Nurgle are all (only) crappy Level-1 Wizards...max...meaning only 1-Power Dice....and meaning they will PROBABLY only have the spell Miasma of Pestilence - which is a simple 3+ to cast....so the bonus is really doing nothing for them.

The only model in a Nurgle force that WOULD benefit from the maxed-out bonus is the Great Unclean One with his high-end spells like Rancid Visitation or Plague Wind (on an 8+ with the full Epidemius bonus active !).

Atrahasis
14-05-2008, 12:21
which is a simple 3+ to cast....so the bonus is really doing nothing for them. Except now the opponent is facing 8-11 to dispel instead of 3-6.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 13:41
Yes, there is that ;)

decker_cky
14-05-2008, 19:06
It's not that bad, since the opponent still fails a third of them, and epidemus not being a mage means you have to sink over half of your army into characters to get any effect from it. Doing that makes it harder to get all the wounds needed to cast spells that well.

Plus, imagine if epidemus was being used against a nurgle magic heavy army. ;)