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SlaaneshSlave
11-05-2008, 19:52
I have a demon Slaaneshy chariot from my SoC army. I love the model & want to use it in the new Demon list.

But I cannot come up with a viable configuration for a Slaaneshy herald in a chariot. No crew. No scythed wheels. 2 Str 3 Attacks from the steeds. No armor save. Seems to be OK in many areas, but good in none.

How would you use a Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh?

][nquist0r
11-05-2008, 20:07
If your opponent goes first then these chariots are potential turn one chargers. (22 inch range w/steeds of slaanesh) I would use them to smash the flanks of an army then get behind him. Unfortunately they are also cannon fodder, so you have to be careful of that as well.

Gralph!?!
11-05-2008, 20:15
no they have a 20" charge not 22. the chariots are good in one aspect which is support. if you were to charge on in with seekers of slaanesh or even feinds of slaanesh you would be laughning as the impact hits and the heralds attacks can help out against such annoying units especially when giving the herald either etherblade to take out armour or if you zre lucky then many armed monstrousity.

MrBigMr
11-05-2008, 21:07
It just sucks that Chariots end up costing an arm and a leg nowadays and with just the Herald riding them alone. Not that they were any cheap before. But I'm going to have one non the less as I've already worked far too long for it to let it gather dust.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-05-2008, 21:20
In a mono-Slaanesh army they can add a lot of punch to the otherwise light-hitting Slaaneshi units. You could have a Keeper, plus 2 Heralds in Chariots...and that's pretty potent offensively. Make a third one the BSB with Icon of Despair (-2 to enemy unit's Leadership in 12-inches of the Icon) and have her mounted on a Steed of Slaanesh (Move-10, March/Charge-20) to keep up with the Keeper. She moves up right behind him constantly, out of sight of enemy ranged attacks or spells, and projects that -2 Ldrshp aura out in front of the Keeper, constantly, and anything he attacks !

----------

The BEST Chariot in the new book seems to be the Tzeentch one.

For 60-pts (only 40 more than the cost of a Disc or Wings for the Herald), he can be in a FLYING rank-breaking Chariot. Granted it's only STR-4/Tough-4...but it's an extra 4 Wounds of protection (more or less) and you have the maneuverability of always moving 20-inches, putting you in great position for spellcasting, annoying, harrassing, the enemy's units.


When you consider that you can have ALL three Heralds doing this, plus a Flying Lord of Change (OUCH :evilgrin:), or try to save points and take 4 Heralds all on Chariots (ouchy ouch !)....well...your enemy will be crying !


And they USED to say the old "Tzeentch Flying Circus" was bad ? "Suffering ? You haven't seen anything yet..." :D

LooseMoose
11-05-2008, 21:21
You could try it with 'many armed' and go for maximum attacks. Thats 8(?) +D6 impact hits on the charge. You'd be able to take on most light infantry and small support units with that to some success, and after that setting the rest of your army up by having a decent hitter in the enemies back lines. Also as a BSB projecting -2LD in thier back lines would lead to some good panic induced support of magic/shooting.

SlaaneshSlave
12-05-2008, 22:27
I tried Many Armed & wasn't too impressed. 6 attacks from Herald at Str 4, 2 attacks from steeds at Str 3, & D6 Str 5 hits. Average rolling wins combat by 1-2. Seems risky for an expensive character.

Etherblade actually sounds about right, then use him as a knight killer. Should be able to charge any shock troops/knights. And those units won't have much CR. And if you challenge after the charge, you should have a sweet win.

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 08:54
Torment Blade. By all accounts at the moment you get +1A for a mere fiver. Give the herald some nice gift to go with it and you'll be hacking and slashing in no time. I was thinking about that, since I was going to use the chariot mainy for big game hunting, the "take an Ld. test for each wound" would give the herald and her chatiot some extra time if the opponent doesn't fall right away.

Neknoh
13-05-2008, 09:04
In which case you should also be choosing the Musk and if upgraded to a BsB with the Torment banner, that's the units personal Ld -2 on their break tests.

However, I was under the impression that Torment Blade did not grant +1 A, gotta reread the items section again. (so many rules going on atm, starting my fourth wargame; Mordheim this time)

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 09:12
However, I was under the impression that Torment Blade did not grant +1 A, gotta reread the items section again. (so many rules going on atm, starting my fourth wargame; Mordheim this time)
There has been much heated arguments over the subject, but at the moment I do have to say that +1A people are getting the upper hand on pure logic and RAW itself.

"I think it's done as a way to get Daemon players to consider taking those gifts that otherwise they might pass over for things like Siren Song, Temptator, Tzeentch's Will, etc. Their effects are "eh" since, for Torment Blade it's only working on multi-wound models anyways (other ones would be dead from you hitting/wounding them/they fail their save, if any) ....so maybe they are basically considering the gift solely as "a +1 attack" gift.

Yes..it only costs 5-points, but it takes up 25% of your Daemonic Gift allowance for a Keeper (because no other gifts are less than 25 points for him)...and 50% of your gift allowance for a Herald of Slaanesh.


With Staff of Change it's even worse as if you take the Staff, you aren't able to take either of the "big ones" for Tzeentch: Twin Heads and Tzeentch's Will. This is huge too, and without a little perk like +1 attack, I don't think we'd EVER see Staff of Change being taken (we probably STILL won't see it be taken all that often, even WITH the +1 Attack bonus for the Lord of Change)."

And also here's my summary on one duscussion on the subject I pulled of the internet:

1. In the rulebook it clearly states that a model with two hand weapons, gets an extra attack. Nothing about "additional hand weapon", which purely means that when purchasing it, you get "another" hand weapon to go with your current one. The wording is so mainly for the reason that you can't really buy the same item twice, right? I mean, if a model has heavy armour, you can't buy him heavy armour again. But an "additional" hand weapon, grants another hand weapon without contradicting the rules. And there are many models out there already armed with 2 hand weapons. Not hand weapon and additional hand weapon. And all those get an extra attack.

2. The torment blade is a hand weapon. It's a hand weapon, but has a different name and special abilities, so as not to confuse with the already standard hand weapon.

3. Torment blade is not a magical item/weapon/anything and as such is not bound by those rules.


Personally I can see why Slaanesh gets cheap attacks. It's because they need them. An S4 T3 herald for CC isn't really up to par with Khorne and Nurgle ones and need all the aid it can get. The Torment Blade seems like a good way to boost the thing that Slaanesh is good at, attacks, and granting some bonus (not being able to hit means they can'y pound our little T3 model to the ground) to aid in keeping it alive.

Your Mum Rang
13-05-2008, 09:50
Does it say that the Kipper and LoC are armed with a hand weapon?

Looking at the book it does not. So I see no way in this being treated as an "additional" hand weapons as much as I would love it to.

Ris
13-05-2008, 09:53
True, but the unit in question is a Herald of Slaanesh, which im fairly sure has a hand weapon/claws that count as a hand weapon

cant check until im home

i am informed though, torment blade is the only gift weapon described as a hand weapon

Your Mum Rang
13-05-2008, 09:58
Ah yes, I refer to the Kipper ofc.

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 10:09
Does it say that the Kipper and LoC are armed with a hand weapon?

Looking at the book it does not. So I see no way in this being treated as an "additional" hand weapons as much as I would love it to.
What in the name of the unholy gods have you been smoking? And can I please have a go at it as well?

DoC pg. 83, under LoC "Talons (hand weapon)" and under KoS "Claws (hand weapon)".


i am informed though, torment blade is the only gift weapon described as a hand weapon
DoC pg. 92, Staff of Change "Hand weapon. Any..."
DoC pg. 94, Torment Blade "Hand weapon. A model..."

Ris
13-05-2008, 10:56
In my defense...its my first day

Mozzamanx
13-05-2008, 12:22
I thought you could not combine a magic weapon with another, or even a mundane weapon? Seems like he just uses his magic hand weapon rather than dual wielding it with his normal one.

Ris
13-05-2008, 12:27
as far as im aware...daemonic gifts are not magic items
hence why they can be taken more than once in the same army no?

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 13:02
That is correct.

The book specificly says that gifts are not magic items/weapons/etc. Thus one can choose to use the claws of the KoS/Herald instead of the torment blade. But this doesn't alter the fact that a torment blade by all accounts counts as a hand weapon. There is no "mundane" hand weapon in the rules. Just hand weapon. A model armed with two hand weapons gets the benefit. A torment blade is not a magical item but a gift which counts as a hand weapon as per the rules in the book.

You could have a magical weapon with magical properties and with the line "Lance", which would mean that on top of all the things that it does, it also acts out like a lance and benefits from all the rules of a lance. The torment blade is a hand weapon and as such benefits from all the rules of a hand weapon. And since it doesn't have anything saying it's a magical item, the restrictions of using a magical weapon are obsolite.

Gifts like Etherblade are not weapon per se, so they're in affect all the time, as per the rules "all attacks the daemon makes..." vs. the balesword's "all attacks by a balesword..." So if I have the two combined, I can either choose to use a normal HW or the balesword, but both get the benefits of the etherblade on top of their own rules.

This of course unless I'm horribly mistaken.

Ris
13-05-2008, 13:11
for what its worth...

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/daemons/gaming/armylists/default.htm

Herald of Slaanesh with Many Armed Monstrosity, Torment Blade


Thanks to being a Many Armed Monstrosity, the Herald of Slaanesh hits home with an impressive 6 Attacks that always strike first.

Not that it really means anything...these sample armylists are always wrong somewhere anyway! just thought it was interesting

EDIT: often wrong as proven by the fact they have 55pts of gifts on a herald :p

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 13:17
for what its worth...

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/daemons/gaming/armylists/default.htm

Herald of Slaanesh with Many Armed Monstrosity, Torment Blade

Not that it really means anything...these sample armylists are always wrong somewhere anyway! just thought it was interesting
I would like to know how a Herald of Slaanesh is able to stretch its 50pts. for gifts to buy both MAM for 50 and a torment blade for a fiver. Probably bought that last bit au naturel. Bet the salesman made her put her many new hands up for a job...

Ris
13-05-2008, 13:22
damn...my edit was 1 min too late!
but yeah those sample lists always seem to have mistakes in them

...hate being at work...want to get started on my first 1000pts of daemons >_<

Your Mum Rang
13-05-2008, 13:24
I was looking in the bestiary section :P

Ris
13-05-2008, 13:26
time to fit all 4 gods into 1kpts...

guillaume
13-05-2008, 14:06
Well you still get impact hits at st5. Not to be sniffed at.

I supposed it could be used as a knight killer with the etherblade, but it seems to be too single-use for an all-comer list.

I would use it as the old SOC list: A long distance missile to help out other units in combat.

Actually with many arms, you would get D6 st5 impact hits, 8 st4 hits and 2 st3 on the charge.

Not a game winner, but a sure unit breaker when charging an enemy unit already in CC.

Ris
13-05-2008, 14:12
8 S4 hits?? O_o

Your Mum Rang
13-05-2008, 15:13
There is only a Herald on that chariot. No crew, Guillaume.

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 15:35
And even then they'd be S3.

thenurgler
14-05-2008, 04:05
I think it's very easy to see the intent of these magical hand weapons. If they were intended to grant a +1A bonus then GW would have clearly said so, by saying they could be combined with their other hand weapon. Pretending that the rules intended to provide +1A is simply not true, even if somewhat supported by RAW.
With GW because often they are bad at writing rules, I find it's best to look at what they were probably intending it to be, at least in instances where intent was clear.

MrBigMr
14-05-2008, 08:16
Gifts are not magical items in any sense. It stands clearly in the book.

And there's already a similar case in 40K. The old Space Marine drop pods stated that they deploy much like Deep Striking (never referring to the rule, but the method was similar in description) and it said clearly that troops cannot assault from them in the turn they deploy in drop pods. In the more resent codexes it was merely said that drop pods Deep Strike. People started asking "does this mean that I can assault from them, since they're open topped (rules allow assault from open topped vehicles) and the rules don't state that one could not assault." But the fact is that the actual Deep Striking rules state that models Deep Striking can not assault the turn they arrive.

I won't argue once GW FAQs this, but at the moment gift are not magical items and the Staff and Blade are Hand Weapons. Hand Weapon + Hand Weapon = +1A. Says so in the rulebook. Nothing about Additional or anything. And it's already state on many cases that there are many models armed with 2 Hand Weapons, which get +1A.

But the question is, does a mounted or a chariot riding character get such bonuses?

decker_cky
14-05-2008, 09:16
But the question is, does a mounted or a chariot riding character get such bonuses?

Of course not. The 2 hand weapons rule is for infantry, and can't be used by mounted models.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 13:35
Does that apply to riding a Chariot though ? It's not the same, technically, as "riding a horse/mount" - ?


Does anyone know how that's played ? If you have a Chaos Lord with Hand Weapon + Hand Weapon, and mount him in a Chariot...do people at Tournaments you play say he loses his +1 Attack Bonus because he is in a Chariot ?

Mozzamanx
14-05-2008, 13:40
Well, it makes sense- someone has to whip the horses in the right direction

Creamster
14-05-2008, 15:20
@ MrBigMr: You stated that the +1 attack is for pure logic and RAW reasons. While RAW is slightly in favour (due to some feaverish rules lawyering and loophole reading i might add) pure logic will always be with the not gaining an extra attack. Why? mainly due to the 5 points for giving a kipper an extra attack as well as the bonus. It was intentional on the part of the developers and for shame on slaanesh player who uses this to cheat their opponent.


On the chariot issue. i think that the 165 points for it is very well worth putting one in. It is the fasted chariot in the game and generates 4 wounds on average against T3 4+. Charge into the flank (easily done with movement 10) will have you winning combat by 3.

I think it would be best either leaving the herald naked or using gaze/musk. Many arms and ether blade don't generate as much CR with the 50 point price tag (55% of the basic cost). interesting fact Many arms generates the same kills on 3+ saves as ether blade. But many arms will cause more wounds on 4+ saves and higher and ether is better on 2+ saves and lower. So really it is up to you and what is lacking in your army.

As already guessed i will be using my chariots as support for nettes and letters or able to take on even 5 CR blocks of enemies if i get a flank charge. If the points allow i will either be using gaze or musk. Gaze helps break down units close to the enemy general (Which they think are safe from running :D) and musk helps run them down.

Also i do like the tzeench chariots but i think that they have to be played more carefully. There are less targets that they charge and win against, and if they get charged then there is no way that they can pull through. Although gift of chaos in the middle of the enemies line is something to think :O

MrBigMr
14-05-2008, 16:15
@ MrBigMr: You stated that the +1 attack is for pure logic and RAW reasons. While RAW is slightly in favour (due to some feaverish rules lawyering and loophole reading i might add) pure logic will always be with the not gaining an extra attack. Why? mainly due to the 5 points for giving a kipper an extra attack as well as the bonus. It was intentional on the part of the developers and for shame on slaanesh player who uses this to cheat their opponent.
It might cost a fiver, but seeing that there's not much to fill in the space around it, it'll end up costing you more than you know. If a KoS gets it, then you can only get 75pts. worth of gifts, since there's no 20pts. or less gift for it. Basicly you've spent 25pts. of gifts on a 5pts. item. Same with Heralds. You can only buy a 25pts. gift to go with the blade, leaving 20pts. unused since there's nothing that'll go there. Only model that'll get full benefits of its gifts with the blade is the Prince.

So in a way, while nor playing for it, a Torment Blade costs half as much in gift points as a many armed monstrosity.

And are you seriously suggesting Slaanesh and Tzeentch are so tough and strong on their own without even the slightest of aids in other fields like attacks? It's not like they can get weapons that'll kill about anything or stuff like that.

And when did I say anything about logic? I've just stated that by RAW it is so. Why don't you tell me why Staff of Change and Torment Blade has the line "hand weapon" on them while other weapons, which by rules are stated to be more or less weapons (such as balesword and the line "all hits caused by the balesword" and not "by the daemon" as can be found with some gifts) don't? Since you've dragged logic into this, what is the logic in stating some weapons with the extra line of Hand weapon and others without it? Logic is the little thing that says "oh, the Great Standard of Sundering can't really work on all spell lists, it would be far too powerful." But with non-Tzeentch armies having very little in the way of countering enemy spells, it becomes vital.


As for the chariot, I think I'll have to agree with you on that one. All in all, best to try out few configurations and see what works best. You'll never know.

Ris
14-05-2008, 18:20
at first i was of the opinion that it wouldnt give the +1A, but really there is no reason to clarify specifically that it is a hand weapon unless that was the way it is intended to be used

I think it would be quite funky to fly around a tzeentch chariot with the flames of tzeentch gift...flying flamer with impact hits that can stand and shoot...just in case

Delusionist
15-05-2008, 11:45
I'm considering using one in my army, but I'm not sure at what point level as I want Heralds for my big Daemonette units.

I really think the Chariot could do some damage when combined with a unit of Daemonettes. The nettes should be able to hold against a charge and the unit would probably break after a flank charge by the chariot. It seems as a safer flank charge unit that mounted nettes or fiends. It is the only non-lord unit in a slaanesh army with str5 (IIRC. I seem to have lost my army book :( I hope it shows up soon) and I really think thats a great bonus.

I've been out of fantasy for a loooong time, but at least to me the Chariot looks ok on paper. I could be wrong, but I'll at least try to make it work.