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Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-05-2008, 21:05
Hello everyone.

This question just came up after reading another thread talking about Daemons of Chaos with Standards - would you want to risk losing them if you are destroyed in combat, etc.

Anyways...


On the Standard Capturing thing - this is slightly confusing, if you look at the 7th Edition FAQ for the main rulebook on the GW site.

There they have the question asking something like (appx. wording):


Q: If I have lost a Standard to an enemy unit, can I get that standard back by simply destroying the enemy unit, or must I make them break from combat, then pursue and destroy them while they are fleeing, in order to recapture my Standard ?


A: You must make them break and then catch and destroy them, the same way you would have lost your Standard in the first place.

------------------

This is very interesting/curious - as it would SEEM to suggest that they are saying you CANNOT (errata going against/replacing what is in the Big Red Rulebook)...simply destroy a unit to capture/re-capture a Standard/Banner ?

IF true...it would mean Daemons and other Immune to Psychology units could NEVER lose their Standards ? Thoughts ?

Comments ?

Here's the link to the FAQ page I'm talking about:
http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/errata.htm


Just pick the main Warhammer Rulebook one and scroll down till you see what I am referring to. It's one of the later sections / questions I think.

Lordsaradain
11-05-2008, 21:43
Who in their right mind would capture a chaos daemon standard anyway? Their minds would be warped! :O

But if you destroy a unit you capure their banner.

"Q. To recapture a captured banner, do I need to just
defeat the unit carrying it as a trophy or do I need to
break it and pursue it as per capturing its banner?
A. You must break it and pursue, in the same way as for
capturing their banner."

This just explains how recapturing works, and they left out the part about banners being captured when a unit is destroyed. "...in the same way as for
capturing their banner" refers to the BRB.

Braad
11-05-2008, 21:45
Check out the other thread, I just explained it.

Spirit
11-05-2008, 22:40
I think this seems a bit far fetched. It would make undead and tomb king armies extremely difficult to play against, never mind daemons.

ehlijen
11-05-2008, 23:58
If the standard bearer of a unit dies in the turn the unit is destroyed, you capture the banner even though the now dead unit cannot run. And given that he is one of the last three models to die (usually) that should be the normal way of capturing unbreakable or similar (not just ItP, those guys can run as normal) unit banners.

Braad
12-05-2008, 05:22
Okay, to get things in line a bit, here's what I said in the other thread:


Your a bit wrong here, Fulgrim.
In the FAQ it says "defeated" and not "destroyed" which is something completely different. Defeated means you loose with combat resolution, but you haven't broken yet. That's what might happen next.

So according to the FAQ, you need to first defeat them, then break them and then catch them, to get the banner.

---EDIT---

Reading a bit further, and its actually even more different then you say. You only need to break them and do a pursue move to get the banner. You don't need to actually catch them, according to the rules on page 80 of the BRB. It also says that standards are captured when a unit is completely destroyed, by the way.
Even I learned something now, I always thought you had to catch the unit.

And your answer:


My point was that the FAQ seems to suggest you must get the unit to BREAK first...then pursue, etc. to get the Standard or to RE-capture a Standard you have already lost.

Since Immune to Psych units, like Daemons, don't ever "break"...how would you ever get (or get back) a Standard from them, going off the wording in the FAQ ? It seems to suggest they could not lose it - since the FAQ would, essentially, be over-riding the wording used on page-80 in the BRB, which you mention.

The point is, that its just a question answered about how to re-capture a banner. To recapture do it "just as normal" with a bit of explanation with it. They are not explaining changes on how the rules for capturing banners work, just that if you want to re-take one of your own you have to follow the normal steps and they explain a bit.

Also, ehlijen has a very strong point that if this were true, only the real unbreakable units would have this, since ItP units can be broken as normal.

T10
12-05-2008, 10:10
The rule book adequately describes how to lose standards and how to reclaim them. Please see pages 80 and 81.

To recapture the standards (or "trophies") you only need to "defeat" the enemy unit close combat. All trophies carried by the defeated unit are removed from the table.

-T10

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-05-2008, 20:51
I guess we have to conclude that the FAQ/ERRATA for the rulebook, which normally over-rides things in the book with the new info...is worded incorrectly then / in error since in their reply they say:

"Q. To recapture a captured banner, do I need to just
defeat the unit carrying it as a trophy or do I need to
break it and pursue it as per capturing its banner?

A. You must break it and pursue, in the same way as for
capturing their banner."

-------------------------------------------

* this suggests that the ONLY (same) way you can "capture" a banner in the first place is to "break it (the enemy unit) and pursue".

The problem is, ITP (Daemons or Undead at least) never break from combat so there is never a time where you roll your pursuit distance versus' their flee distance, etc. etc. - so how can you, going strictly off the wording there in the Errata (which over-rides basic Rulebook entries where there is a conflict in wording, etc. IIRC) ...ever take a standard from an ITP or Unbreakable unit ?

Note...I'm sort of saying they might have worded their answer wrong, but going off their answer, I'm not sure how you can presume anything more than the only way to capture a banner (or RE-capture it, as the question specifically asks) is to break a unit FIRST...then run them down/catch them.

The Question even asks very clearly, "do I just need to defeat the unit"...OR..."break it and pursue, as per capturing the banner"....and the GW FAQ people answer "YOU MUST BREAK IT AND PURSUE."

I'm not seeing how that is tough to figure or ambiguous ? Thoughts ?

*

Braad
13-05-2008, 09:22
@ T10, well yes, if that's the exact wording of the rules, the FAQ goes against it completely, by saying you need to do more then just defeat them...

I don't have my book at hand right now, so I can't check this.

Anyway, if you destroy the unit that carries the trophies, they are also removed from the game, since there needs to be a unit that carries them, and thus they do not give any victory points.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 12:19
Bump - care to reply to my reply T10 / Atrahasis - or any of the Forum seers who often have helpful rules advice/perspective ?

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-05-2008, 21:02
BUMP-#2 - does anyone have anything they can add to this question ?

The way the currently-up-on-the-GW-site FAQ for the rulebook reads, to re-capture a Standard that has been taken by the enemy (however they took it)...you must "break it (the enemy unit that has your Standard) and pursue".


That's news to most people here, I think, as MOST people have been saying that all you need to do is just destroy/defeat the unit, and you automatically recapture the Standard. The GW-offical "active as of right now" FAQ disputes that... even T10 didn't seem to be aware of that ? (and he knows EVERYTHING rules-related :p ;) - seriously, you're awesome T10)

---------

SECONDLY....the phrase immediately following the "you must break it and pursue".... part of their answer... is "IN THE SAME WAY AS FOR CAPTURING THEIR BANNER".


This seems 100% clear to me that they are ruling in the current (as of Feb-2008) updated Rulebook FAQ that you CANNOT merely destroy a unit and take a Standard from it....you must "BREAK IT AND PURSUE"... to get that Standard.


The whole "problem" with this comes to units Immune to Psychology or Unbreakable...they will never "Break"...and thus will never be in a situation (unless they have to by some weird special rule/effect) ...where they are "breaking" and "being pursued"....thus, going by the literal wording in the current GW-errata/FAQ which I've been referencing here....you CANNOT ever capture a ItP or Unbreakable units Standard ?

This would SEEM to be huge news.... thoughts on it by everyone here ?

Nurgling Chieftain
16-05-2008, 22:54
I don't think a destroyed unit can hold a standard, and since re-capturing your standard provides no benefit beyond the opponent not having it, I don't think the distinction is important.

Jonke
16-05-2008, 23:29
According to the BRB to capture a standard you have to defeat, break and pursue or destroy the enemy. To recapture you just have to defeat i.e. have more combat resolution points. (This is what T10 is referring to)

The FAQ clears this up and says to recapture you have to break [the unit] and pursue just as when capturing a standard (the italics are a direct quote).

The important bit being "just as when capturing" the other is just an (unnecessary and incomplete) reminder of how capturing works. Capturing and thus recapturing can be done in two ways. Break and pursue or destroy. Against deamons, undead and unbreakable units you have to do the latter.

And Fulgrim's-Chosen units that are Immune to Psychology can be broken in combat.

Gazak Blacktoof
17-05-2008, 10:08
The FAQ clears this up and says to recapture you have to break [the unit] and pursue just as when capturing a standard (the italics are a direct quote).



This seems a little bit odd. You don't need to pursue a unit to force it to drop its own banner. You need to pursue to capture a banner (or simply eradicate the unit). It seems unlikely that a unit would hold onto an enemy unit's standard in preference to their own banner when they break from combat.

I think its simpler to just ignore this FAQ. Recapturing banners is pointless (as already pointed out they just disappear) it only matters whether the enemy is in possession of them.

Jonke
17-05-2008, 14:22
You have a point Gazak. So it's another bad and poorly thoughtout faq-answer.