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View Full Version : Am I right on the advice I gave to my Friend!



Ouber king of Loren
11-05-2008, 21:08
Okay I have a friend on this forum called Huw_dawson we used to play a lot of 40k togther and then I quit to watch Charmed (a lot more than I should) He started a dwarf army which he recently finished and has been playing at a local games store. I went to this game store to try and help him because he was having no luck in his last 3 games two againest Goblins and one againest Empire. Upon viewing the battle he suffered a bit of bad luck and lost all his warmachines in one turn to goblin magic. He then quit on turn two because I think he was a bit frustrated. Sadly he has only been at this gamestore for a month and has already started to get bullied and been given a nickname 'Rulebook' Which I am not happy with. I must admit I slightly joined in on the annoying side of taunts that were in an effort to try and make him change his list and give a few other units a try. Might seem Harsh but he would not listen otherwise. It turns out he still wont try my advice so this had me questioning myself is my advice correct?

The problem I have with his army and the reason I dont think its working is because:

He has no Thunderes which I feel every dwarf army should have one unit of.

He has no anvil although not esstinal I believe its insanly powerful and effective aginest every army.

Also No flame cannon Which I think would suit his army no end. Because he has three solid 20man dwarf squads and a organ gun. So it is my thinking if he deploys his spuads in the middle with a flame cannon and a organ gun on the flanks that would funnel the enemy into the center to fight his dwarf squads.

My biggest problem with his army is the fact it has two squads of ten Quarrels with great weapons I think he should drop one unit for some thunders and drop the great weapons altogther.

I am writing this thread to try and help. When we played 40k togther he would constantly lose to me on a weekly basis and I mean I would kill his entire army no later than turn 4. Also when we switched armies the exact same happened and it bothered him alot to the point he nearly quit altogther I would not like the same thing to happen in warhammer fantasy because the core of his list is solid and his paint job is good. He is also a brillant person to play againest he generally knows all the rules and is nice and polite.

So is my adivce correct and should he try it out?

P.S. Sorry if you dont like this Thread Huw just trying to help.

P.S.S I would also like him to thrash the bullies at the local store so they can eat there words.

Braad
11-05-2008, 21:44
He recently started playing? Get some experience, that's my advise. It can be a difficult game, and when you just started its not always possible to win.

And when people at a store annoyed, me... to hell with them, I'dd go somewhere else.
Anyway, I don't play at stores. They usually don't have frying pans for the compulsory late-night snacks.

Milney
11-05-2008, 22:00
...and then I quit to watch Charmed....

Wait...what? :eyebrows:


...
He then quit on turn two because I think he was a bit frustrated..

Never a great way to retain the respect of members of a gaming club. Generally a good plan to grin and bear it (at least until you *know* you've lost) and have a bit of a laugh.

Being able to have a laugh at your own expense is a vital skill in this hobby - as sometimes the dice do just turn against you and there's little you can do against it.

I still remember my 8 man Salamander's Devastator Squad back in 3rd Ed. 4 Plasma Cannons - all overheat, 3 fail saves. Panic check and fled off the board on turn 2. Was not best pleased, but had some laughs with my opponent about it.


...
Sadly he has only been at this gamestore for a month and has already started to get bullied and been given a nickname 'Rulebook' Which I am not happy with..

"Rulebook"? Care to elaborate?


...
He has no Thunderes which I feel every dwarf army should have one unit of..

Whilst thunderer's are nice, I wouldn't go so far to say they should be the be all and end all of a Dwarf list. I'm a big fan of Quarrallers tbh, as I use missile support to just harrass my enemy - so an extra 6" (1 turn) of shooting for cheaper can be fairly nice.

I severely doubt his problems stem directly from lacking a unit of thunderer's. Perhaps not making full use of his points advantage from using Quarrellers, now, that might have an impact (you mention he has Great Weapons on them, putting them almost to the same points cost as Thunderers).


...
He has no anvil although not esstinal I believe its insanly powerful and effective aginest every army..

Anvil Armies generally make people groan - and are also a fairly vulnerable points sink in the hands of a 'green' general. He might end up loosing more heavily through a poorly deployed Anvil.

Though you do say you want him to trounce some people, and an Anvil-based gunline is a fairly solid list for that purpose.


...
Also No flame cannon Which I think would suit his army no end. .

Flame Cannons are pretty underrated at the moment, but to be honest, 2 Organ guns are just so effective that it doesn't really make much of a difference ;) Damn those organ guns :P


...
P.S.S I would also like him to thrash the bullies at the local store so they can eat there words.

Definately get him an Anvil-gunline then, always a shoe-in for a good ass-kicking. ;)

Lhel
11-05-2008, 22:41
Sounds like he should find a store that's worth playing at for a start.

A gunline is efficient, but fairly boring to play at times. I like to make a mix of a solid firebase which can threathen most armies from turn 1 and force them to take meassures to deal with it of be shot to pieces. Cannons/Anvil do that very well. Perhaps a gyrocopter would be something to play around with? Build up a little magic defence and learn all the spells coming your way and how important it is to stop them. Not all spells are worth stopping, taking a few casualties to some magic missiles are not a bad deal if you can block his movement spell and make him loose a charge. It's a matter of staying calm and to a degree cynical. Loosing all warmachines to goblin magic in one phase sounds like a very bad day.

Just look at your options and know your strenght, where can you get hurt, where must your protect for any cost.

Just hang in there and learn your army and don't be afraid to try new things, find your own path; to quote some old and I'm sure dead guy. :skull:

Ozorik
11-05-2008, 22:45
we used to play a lot of 40k togther and then I quit to watch Charmed

I really hope thats a joke. If not I hope the therapy is going well.


He has no Thunderes which I feel every dwarf army should have one unit of..

As Milney said quarellers are far from bad. Great weapons arent a great choice but it makes them a good counter charge unit and they can do a lot of damage to fast cavalry etc if they hold their ground. Sheilds are a better option but quarellers with great weapons arent bad. I have as many quarellers as thunderers.


He has no anvil although not esstinal I believe its insanly powerful and effective aginest every army..

Its not hugely powerful and its not essential. It has useful abilities, which can be game winning but it is also unreliable and very expensive. I dont use one myself.

Again flame cannons are useful but arent essential.

About the only thing essentail for Dwarves is big (25 is a good number) blocks of warriors. Everything else is down to taste

Huw has already asked advice about his Dwarves in the Dwarf tactica. Are you the guy with night goblins and the big un unit?

Surgency
11-05-2008, 23:06
blocks of 25 warriors? I've never fielded more than 20... 25 is a waste of points, IMO. Backed up by a unit of thunderers, and a unit of slayers for the flank charge, Longbeards nearby, with a Thane in the unit, and you have a rock hard core force, right there.

Throw in a cannon and a gyrocopter, and thats brutal ;)

Ozorik
11-05-2008, 23:11
25 can take some casualties and still give you max rank bonus. With units of 20 1 casualtiy means you are down a rank (depending on characters) and every army in the game has sufficent firepower of one kind or another to kill a single Dwarf. Its more expensive but more surviavable.

Surgency
11-05-2008, 23:15
True, but I find that my warriors and longbeards are usually ignored in the shooting phase in favor those things that people find more dangerous... Like the aforementioned slayers, organ guns, cannons, and gyrocopters...

Maybe thats just the store I play at though :p

Krusty
13-05-2008, 01:19
Definately get him an Anvil-gunline then, always a shoe-in for a good ass-kicking. ;)

(insert link re-direct to "point-and-click armies" thread: here)

lol

Mercules
13-05-2008, 12:41
Best advice I can give, Ouber, is to stop trying to help your friend. I know you think you are, but at least in this post you are coming off as a well meaning but meddlesome twit. If y our friend prefers to use Quarrelers over Thunderers that is fine. Not using an Anvil is actually a a point FOR him, not against him.

All your friend needs to learn is how to accept loosing. Loosing isn't shameful. Two people sit down at a table, one of them has to loose. Quiting turn two is poorly thought out though. Even if you loose, there are often a lot of things you can learn during that defeat. I think I fought 8 battles with my Ogres before they had a single win, but each time I came away with something that helped me change my tactics or tweak my list to fit my style.

Malorian
13-05-2008, 15:42
I LOVE the idea of crossbowmen with great weapons. Great long range fire and than a perfect unit to hit the flank of the unit in combat with your warriors.

People that like handguns over crossbows just play against more knights than longbows (did I mention I love playing against dwarfs with my wood elves ; )


A couple of times I have posted threads like this that were meant to help my friends get better, but each time it just ended up insulting them. It's one thing to lose, it's another for your friend to label you as someone that 'needs help'.

pkain762
13-05-2008, 16:38
i agree with merules and molarian..... i don't care if my army list sucks.... but as long as i have fun playing with it... that's what i care about....

last week i fielded a giant and a scraplauncher in my ogre army.... and they performed just as well if not better than things that i normall bring in my army.....

example is a lot of ogre players don't like giants and scraplaunchers... but i liked them.... so i plan on buying both of those models.....

people may not agree with what you field and say it may be a waste of points but as long as the person playing enjoys it who cares.....

and like mercules i've lost plenty with my ogres.... masacred a few times..... but i finished the game... and you learn things about your army and the your opponents army... and then you have the occasional moral victories when you're getting your ass beat haha

kain

WusteGeist
14-05-2008, 06:58
First off, no one merits a nick name rule book, for the simple fact that at least 25% of gamers playing this game dont seem to know the rules from a cook book. So as long as your right in the definition and the spirit of the rule you should not get a hard time for it. Second no army should be changed for what some one else thinks it should be. You the owner of the army should keep it as you want it, BUT always refine it tinker with it make it into that lean sleek killing machine.

Also rember that each GOOD roster should be played at least 3 times before tossing it out. Just because it fails the first time does not mean it wont work, your just not use to it yet. Lastly to your friend directly, in this day and age of gaming expect to loose your warmachines, too many armies have too many good solid ways of taking them out. So much so the death of war machines has become a bit of an art form. Use them 2 or 3 turns anything after that is a boon.

Famder
14-05-2008, 07:34
Don't fix his army list fix his tactics. Address the way he uses things to help him. Everyone likes improving their tactics, but because some units are preference things telling them some of their units suck is like telling them their favorite band sucks. If you improve their tactics this increases the chance of them incorporating new units because they compensate for a weak point in their battle plan rather than being given a battle plan to go with units you recommend.

I know that when I first started playing I loved saurus warriors, but everyone else favored massive skinks. I didn't incorporate more skinks because everyone else said they were better, I did it because I saw how they would work with what I wanted to do with my saurus. Once your friend knows what he wants to accomplish in a game he will figure out what unit can help him do it.

TK421
14-05-2008, 11:24
Charmed? :wtf:

Mercules
14-05-2008, 12:38
Charmed? :wtf:

And what... may I ask... is wrong with Charmed? Along with Smallville it is one of the few shows my Fiance and I can both agree upon watching regularly. In fact whenever one of the season DVDs drop to $15 somewhere we pick them up. At least they created their own little mythos for the show, even if they don't always stick to it very well. I could at least tolerate it, unlike Buffy.

That being said I can't imagine not being able to play Warhammer because of some silly T.V. show.

TK421
14-05-2008, 12:40
That being said I can't imagine not being able to play Warhammer because of some silly T.V. show.

That's what I was going for yes.

Yionel
16-05-2008, 03:12
Quarellers are a cheap core unit but arent as killy as thunderer one of each is usualy a good bargain ( missile troops dont do that much dmg in my experience war machines on the other hand) Also what kind of heroes and blocks is he using? oh and the anvil is nice but i find A Dwarfs lord way better for 2k points games a free Longbeard slot is invaluable and its nice if you put him with Hammerers...last not never go out wihtout slayers :P i use a ful block of 20 with a Giant slayer and a Dragon slayer i pretty much killed and endured everything possible with that unit the key is to put em in the worse possible fight as possible theres nothing to daring for em so keep moving em foward where you can see you can get most of enemy units that usually intimidates your opponent since he know he cant kill em all quick ill give ya my army list and show it to your friend dont mind asking me questions or making adjusment to the list.

Dwarf Lord: oathstone,Master Rune of Gromil,Rune of resistance,2 rune of cleaving,rune of snorri spanglehelm

Dragon slayer:Rune of cleaving,Rune of Fury,Rune of Snorri Spanglehelm


Master Engeneer,Heavyweapon,Rune of stone

20 LongBead,Fullcommand,Rune of Battle,Ancestory Rune

10 Quarellers,Shields

10 Thunderers,SHields

20 Hammerers,shields,Fullcommand,Rune of Battle,Rune of Stoism

Canon Rune of Reloading

Canon Rune of Reloading,Rune of Burning

20 Slayers,GiantSlayer

2 Organ Guns

2000 pts

Kerill
16-05-2008, 06:38
Definitely sounds like he needs to find a new store to play at. Checking the rulebook is ABSOLUTELY FINE. And people who mock people who do are probably cheating in some manner. Also he is new to the game therefore WILL NEED TO CHECK THE RULEBOOK. Hell in my group some players have been playing for 10 years and still need to check it occasionally.

Second thing is he needs to grow up. Giving up on turn 2 just because you lost your warmachines is a bit pathetic. This isn't 40K you don't NEED guns, what in an O&G army can take a solid block of dwarf warriors with a decent character to the front re-rolling all their misses and with a 3+save in combat. If he plays on he has still got a fighting chance. I suspect he is giving up partly because of all the jeering, why not play him at your/his house for a few games until he gets the hang of the game before throwing him back into the *****-fest that your local games club seems to be.

Warseer and the like spend a lot of pages on talking about the best combos of this and that because its one of the easiest thing to tweak. The most important part though is how you use your troops and we see little discussion of that because it is so difficult to describe beyond the basics, you actually need to play to know how things will come out. I'm not a great player but I'm not bad but sometimes I take mathshammer a bit too far and don't do X because it is statistically unlikely to win then my opponent does X and butchers my unit with good dice rolls and I have to reconsider my occasionally ball-less approach :S

RobG
16-05-2008, 06:48
Two cannons and two organ guns is pretty brutal.

Huw_Dawson
16-05-2008, 07:27
Just to clarify, I'm perfectly okay with this thread.

- Huw

isidril93
17-05-2008, 08:11
hmmm...have you tried slayers?
i think that they can use two hand weapons or great weapons if they want to although im not sure
good against night goblins

but why do they call you rulebook? thats plain stupid