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Dooppie
12-05-2008, 09:03
Hi all,

In the new Deamon book there is a Deamon gift: Siren song
With Siren song you can forge 1 unit too make a charge or flee reaction.

My question is:
If the enemy unit is Immune to Psychology and choise flee.
Does the unit flee or because of the Itp it can not flee?

neXus6
12-05-2008, 09:52
Immune to Psychology does not mean you cannot flee, it just means you don't test for Psychology.

So the player being affected by Siren can choose to flee if they want and does so as normal.

The exact wording of the gift of "flee as if they had failed a panic check" is just to tell you how the model(s) should flee, they are not actually failing a panic check, which Immune to Psychology does stop.

Sylass
12-05-2008, 12:41
Actually ItP does mean that you can't voluntarily flee as a charge reaction (BRB, psychology section). I guess that's where the confusion came from.

shartmatau
12-05-2008, 12:47
Well Siren Song does not make the unit declare a charge reaction. It makes them charge. Chargers do not declare reactions because they are the ones charging. Also if they still choose to charge then they must make all psychology tests as normal. So a unit the is ITP will not have to take a terror test for example.

Oenghus
12-05-2008, 13:25
One would have to assume that they'd automatically rally in the next turn though, as they automatically pass all leadership-based tests.

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 13:51
Err, no they don't?

Oenghus
12-05-2008, 14:41
Ah. Sorry, I must have been confusing ItP with the 'can never flee' part of the Unbreakable rule. Or something.

Anyway, my bad. I'll be quiet now.

Lordsaradain
12-05-2008, 15:44
What happeneds when you use siren song against daemons or undead? They cant flee...

shartmatau
12-05-2008, 15:48
thats exactly what the original question was. And yes they can flee, they just normally do not. Siren Song is not normal, it is an ability which forces a unit to charge or flee. And makes no mention of units ITP, so even those units must choose charge or flee. Its pretty simple if you read the rule.

Dooppie
12-05-2008, 17:02
Fleeing undead is silly :wtf:
Only Harry the hammer know how too do that.

Wait Siren song works within 20 inch.
This charackter can sing far away.:D.

Chaos lord: Look undead is running!! Is harry the hammer near?
Champion: Sir, No harry is near, they are running from our Slaanesh dude that is singing the Siren song.
Chaos lord: Realy?? I can not hear this song. we stand 1 meter from this slaanesh dude and hear no any sound.
Champion: Lord, you better not hear the Siren song.

Undead and deamon runs away from Siren song?

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 17:05
Anything that is not Unbreakable can run from it.

Malorian
12-05-2008, 19:20
Wow, this sounds nasty...

truthsayer
12-05-2008, 19:24
Does this work if say a unit of foot troops contained a mounted character?

does the character have to charge out of the unit if in range?

neXus6
12-05-2008, 19:25
I'm pretty sure as you target the unit the character would move along with the unit, seeing as if the character leave the unit the unit cant move.


Undead have no rule that says "they can never flee" under the new book. I'm sure one of the previous books had a rule like that in it.

Personally I would not see it as fleeing, I would see it as the model with Siren messing with the control over the undead/creating an image of something behind them.
That sits with me A LOT better than the idea of undead fleeing in fear.

I think Harry the Hammers rules are silly and while he is a nice chaos lord I don't like the scenic base with the fleeing skellies, but then I don't play Undead so no worries for me. :p

As a slight side point Siren on Unbreakable troops I would assume seeing as they may never flee ever they MUST charge. Which could be useful. :)

EvC
12-05-2008, 20:13
I really don't see why anyone is surprised that some crazy Daemon of Chaos is able to make Skeletons run away. It's Chaos, if it doesn't make sense, then that's exactly how things should be ferchrissakes! ;)

Lordsaradain
12-05-2008, 20:34
Lol! But unbreakable units like slayers and fanatics are unaffected?

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2008, 20:44
I realise that people are going to be throwing RAW around, but... does it not seem eminently logical that if Immune to Psychology are not allowed to choose to Flee from a charge, they shouldn't be allowed to choose to flee from a Siren?

neXus6
12-05-2008, 21:09
All I can really say is what has not being able to flee from a charge got to do with it?

Immune To Psychology troops can flee, just not as a charge reaction. I am not a RAW nazi that's just the way it is.
I know it's not the same but it is kinda like saying Immune to Psych troops can't Flee from a charge so why shouldn't they not be able to flee from combat. The situations are totaly different. :)


Unbreakable troops have in their rules that they can never flee for any reason so they must charge.
As for undead, as I said Siren is not necessarily the Keeper making itself so scary/alluring that the target must flee or charge, its messing with the units minds, or in the case of mindless undead it's messing with the magic that wills them on.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2008, 21:23
I never said that Immune to Psychology troops do not flee, but they a) do not flee from terrifying monsters and b) cannot choose to flee under any circumstances I can think of.

I don't have the Siren rule in front of me, but I really don't understand that if they are a) not afraid of terrifying monsters or situations and b) too proud, stupid or mindless to flee voluntarily, why should they be allowed to choose to flee from a Siren?

EvC
12-05-2008, 21:23
...does it not seem eminently logical that if Immune to Psychology are not allowed to choose to Flee from a charge, they shouldn't be allowed to choose to flee from a Siren?

Even though it's never a good idea to apply logic to Warhammer rules OR great big multi-breasted Squid Daemons, I have to say: that's not actually logical in the slightest. Remember, immune to psychology troops still have the ability to flee, they just can't do it as a charge reaction- and in the case of undead, in virtually every other situation. But the fact that this crazy ability is an exception doesn't mean that they can't do as instructed, it just means it's a bit crazy. One might even describe it as Chaotic.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2008, 21:32
I don't have a problem with them being forced to do it, but that wasn't my understanding of the power: I was under the impression that the unit got to choose whether or not to charge or flee. The root of the issue is that ItP units are not allowed to choose to flee.

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 21:38
The root of the issue is that ItP units are not allowed to choose to flee.In one very specific circumstance. This is not that circumstance.

Lord Inquisitor
12-05-2008, 21:49
You mean the only circumstance a unit is ever normally allowed to choose to flee? An unbreakable or ItP unit was simply not allowed to voluntarily flee - until now.

Lalala. Fine ... RAW is so much fun. Fleeing zombies, slayers or Slaanesh knights fleeing makes zero sense. FAQ waiting to happen.

Atrahasis
12-05-2008, 22:07
Slaanesh knights flee just fine.

Slayers cannot flee, ever, as they are Unbreakable.

TheDarkDaff
12-05-2008, 22:13
Thats going to be one very fun spell with some Screamers and Furies as a back stop (or even Mounted Daemonettes if you want to stay mono-God)

decker_cky
12-05-2008, 22:21
Something to note with Siren Song is that it says units that can charge according to the normal Warhammer rules, so you can't actually use the 20" range usually. It has to be a reasonable charge to be declared.

EvC
12-05-2008, 23:49
Lalala. Fine ... RAW is so much fun. Fleeing zombies, slayers or Slaanesh knights fleeing makes zero sense. FAQ waiting to happen.

Once again, I ask you to consider the fact: it's Chaos, it's not meant to make sense. Personally I'd find the idea of Slaaneshi Knights fleeing in disgust from the boobmonster to be positively hilarious, but I guess I'm just not as ready to make an issue out of something that matters so little..?

Stouty
13-05-2008, 00:09
Siren song says the unit flees as if they'd failed a panic test, but what if the unit is immune to panic?

Would I be imagining things if I said that the dwarf rune of Challenge works identically and that it received a FAQ a while back? (Probably, it would mean GW putting up a FAQ).

Certainly it'd seem to me like those units would be forced to charge- it's what seems to make the most sense to me.


Something to note with Siren Song is that it says units that can charge according to the normal Warhammer rules, so you can't actually use the 20" range usually. It has to be a reasonable charge to be declared.


I can smell the tournament abuse already :D

neXus6
13-05-2008, 00:22
Siren song says the unit flees as if they'd failed a panic test, but what if the unit is immune to panic?

"As if they'd failed a panic test" does not mean they have failed a panic test. It's just there to tell you what rule to use for the flee move.

About the "reasonable charge" thing. We are talking about a one use only power power, personally I think it should just be a case of your within 20" of the Keeper, you can either flee or try and charge and if that charge fails...for example from being 12" out of range so be it.

Digging in about the "reasonable charge" thing throws up a problem...what is reasonable? 1/2" short, 1" short? 2....4? what?
If I remember correctly the reasonable charge rule was only brought it to fix things such as dwarves 50+ inches away charging a Warp Lightening Cannon to force it to flee. :rolleyes:
I would have much prefered a rule such as "anyone declaring an obviously out of range charge for their own rules lawering benefits should be hit with the rulebook." ;) :)

:p

][nquist0r
13-05-2008, 01:08
Reasonable is reasonable. Anyone that is deliberately using this spell to cause the opponent to fail a charge is abusing the spell re: the regular rules of declaring a charge in the BRB. They are also lazy and stupid. How hard is it to use a bait at switch deliberately. A unit of hounds, flying units, whatever. Also seems how this is used in YOUR magic phase (after charges are declared) having a unit fail a charge only gets him closer to you for him to nominate a charge. (Although I know you could screw up his battlefront with it.) Using it to force a flee seems to be the better use of the spell.

shartmatau
13-05-2008, 01:54
umm. its used in your opponents turn when they are declaring charges. Its not a bound spell or a spell at all.

Lord Inquisitor
13-05-2008, 23:17
"As if they'd failed a panic test" does not mean they have failed a panic test. It's just there to tell you what rule to use for the flee move.
So, you think it's entirely reasonable that a unit that is not allowed to voluntarily flee and is not subject to panic should voluntarily flee as if subject to panic? :rolleyes:

Don't worry, I get the RAW argument. It's still stupid and I really don't see "it's chaos" as much of a defense for a illogical conclusion from a rules issue.


About the "reasonable charge" thing. We are talking about a one use only power power, personally I think it should just be a case of your within 20" of the Keeper, you can either flee or try and charge and if that charge fails...for example from being 12" out of range so be it.
I don't see that there is any guessing involved here.

Nominate one enemy within 20" of the Daemon this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules.

So, if it able to charge, it must be in range, right? If this is in doubt, measure! I don't see this as any different from Frenzy in this respect.

Oenghus
14-05-2008, 02:38
Man, I can just imagine some jerk parking a unit of five furies 1" in front of some poor sap's Giant Expensive Unit of Death, running his Keeper of Secrets around behind the GEUoD, and activating Siren Song. Because the rule just says that the affected unit has to be able to charge (ie. is not already fleeing or locked in combat or whatever) and doesn't explicitly say that it need to be able to charge the KoS -- but must either charge the KoS or flee, then the GEUoD's only legal response would be to flee away from the Keeper and into oblivion at the hands of the furies.

Bleh. Sloppy wording + people who want to win at any costs = a headache.

AnotherZach
14-05-2008, 08:25
I always thought that the Undead rule regarding break tests: "Undead cannot be broken, but..." meant that they behaved as per the BRB rules for Unbreakable with additional rules about crumbling from combat resolution.

Atrahasis
14-05-2008, 10:38
You thought wrongly.

decker_cky
14-05-2008, 19:08
Yea...unbreakable is unbreakable. If the rules said 'unbreakable with the following exceptions, it'd be different. Plus, we know undead will run because of Harry the Hammer. :P

shartmatau
14-05-2008, 20:25
I'm not sure why people are comparing this to charge reactions. It is not a reaction to a charge, it is the unit charging. If the unit does not charge it flees.