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sigur
18-10-2005, 19:20
Hi there!

I'm pretty sure that some of you know this great project (http://members.tripod.com/arcturas_stronghold/daewar/index.htm) (which sadly seems to be quite dead) and maybe already had some conversation about it here. I just stumbled across it last night and I think that it may work very well. Maybe someone of you already playtested it?

Any comments on it? Pretty please?:)

Puffin Magician
18-10-2005, 19:56
The Squats are, IMO, an army easily represented by the Imperial Guard Codex & Doctrine system. Xeno-Fighters and Chem Inhalers would represent their hatred for Orks and stubbornness well, I think.

Heavy Bolters as Thudd Guns, Sanctioned Psyker w/ Honorifica Imperialis as a Living Ancestor, IG CC Vets as Berzerkers, you can even have the Iron Eagle Gyrocopter using the Vulture's rules. No need for a Squat Codex. :)

Anyway, since it's the "Daewar" you want to discuss, the list seems needlessly complicated. Do the Squats need a gun that's similar to a Rapid Fire gun, but different enough to need new rules? Do we need to reincarnate the complicated "Robot orders" table just to get some Maniples on the table? Do they need their own weapons and rules for everything? No, no, and no.

It could be made much simpler by having mostly Imperial equipment [since they're a part of the Imperium and all], and only making up unit statlines that are more appropriate than simply knicking units from another Codex.

Having the Termite Tunneller count as a Dreadnought just so it can attack things with the Drillhead is a stupid idea, I think. It's a tunneller, pure and simple [and armed with linked Heavy Bolters and an auto-launcher, not "grav guns"].

I like complicated rules, I like 2nd Edition, and I like Squats. But this list is trying to bring back too much at once.

The "Age of Oppression" in the background section seems like a silly attempt to say "nyah!" at GW for killing off this race. At least there's lots of nice pictures to get conversion ideas.

warlordgrubnatz
19-10-2005, 19:48
contrary to puffin I think the codex is very good. Yes it is complicated but the sheer effort for one dserves praise.

the dual fire rules are okay, would be good to represent underslung grenade launchers.

the strategy rating of 2D6 is a little unfair imo, a strategy rating of 3 would be more adequate.

the guild forces are rather nice.

I think the leaders are a litle overpowered, i would decrease the ws to 4 or even 3, surely these shoudlnt be as good as ork warbosses. The living ancestor is rather good.


heath guard shuld be 20pts, guild journeymen 18 pts. Guild crusader manpile is original and realy good. Guild miners seem okay.


warrior squad are a little overpowered, make them ws3. Again make beserkers ws3. Incinerators ws 3, other than that okay.

Bikers are okay but should be ws3. Other vehicles seem fine. Overall -1ws for every unit.

sigur
20-10-2005, 19:17
Thanks for the replies so far. I like some of the special rules; sure, the robot progams is a bit too complicated, the drill attack is questionable [I think that there should be one attack when the termite appears like a big explosion template where the drill comes out, dealing all models under the temlate a hit but also scatters) and the 2d6 strategy rating is just stupid, but all in all there are also many things I really like about it.

Any suggestions on how to represent a Squat force with the IG doctrines system?

My ideas:
.) Steadfast (ignoring penalties for being outnumbered in CC?)
.) Close Combat specialists (improves WS)
.) Ogryns (Robots?)
.) Special Weapon Squats? (huhuhuh)
.) Ensigneers (Engineer Guildmaster?)
.) Sanctioned Psyker (with honorificia, asLiving Ancestor, as Puffin Magician suggested)
.) Chem inhalers (also Puffin's suggestion)

Those are the ones that come to my mind. I also thought of using Allies like Zaelots for Berserkers maybe, Arco Flaggelants for Robots, Stormtroopers in Rhinos (I want to include Rhinos into a Squat force), maybe an inquisitor lord for Living ancestor. Unfortunately, there's no real stand-in for Trikes. Sentinels would be fitting very well, unfortunately they're so slow, but anyway. Another sad thing is that Grey knights are so massively expensive and have all these special rules, otherwise they would be a good stand-in for Squat Exo Armour.

Trunks
20-10-2005, 19:26
I didn't even look at the codex yet.

I use my squats as a Ravenwing army, because 99% of what I have are Trikes and Bikes. I have about 2 dozen squats on foot, but none have their arms.

Puffin Magician
21-10-2005, 11:11
Any suggestions on how to represent a Squat force with the IG doctrines system?

Warlord / Battlelord = Heroic Senior Officer / Senior Officer
Hearthguard = Command Squad
Living Ancestor = Sanctioned Psyker w/ Honorifica Imperialis

Guildmaster Engineer = Techpriest
Berzerkers = Veterans w/ CCW & Laspistol
Robots = Ogryns

Warriors = IG Platoon, perhaps with Frag & Krak Grenades as "standard"

Bikers = Rough Riders
Trikes = Rough Riders w/ Special Weapons

Thunderfire Battery = Hydra Platform
Mega Cannon = Earthshaker Platform
Iron Eagle Gyrocopter = Vulture

Heavy Weapon Teams:
Thudd Guns = Heavy Bolters
Mole Mortars = Mortars
Rapier Lasers = Lascannons

As for Doctrines I decided on not using any, since most would be wasted on re-allowing Restricted Units: Ogryns, Techpriests, Rough Riders, Veterans.

The only ones I considered using were Chem Inhalers and Xeno Fighters: Orks.

sigur
23-10-2005, 03:37
Interesting ideas, Puffin Magician and thanks for the input. On one hand it looks nice and represents the single units quite well; on the other hand I find it a bit sad that there is nothing in it to represent that Squats are different to humans by their nature.

Do you actually play a Squat force with this list of "counts-as"-rules? And if so, do you win occationally? I'm by no means a powergamer (at least I think so) and winning is definitly not the most important thing; I just don't want people to think of Squats as easy prey, because this wouldn't do them justice.

Puffin Magician
23-10-2005, 13:45
Heh no, this is still far far [add several more] from even being begun; no money for 40k right now even if I had a sensible way of acquiring models, materials and paint.

Still a brainstormy .txt file for now, along with the Slaan and Harlequin "counts as" lists.

I'm sure they can be just as successful as any other Imperial Guard army; the "Squatness" of it by no means restricts your choices. Lots of grunts and lots of guns should do the trick.

With some luck, the VDR will be used to make Rhinos & Land Raiders as well as the Termite Tunneller, which are all but manditory in a Squat list.

sigur
24-10-2005, 18:26
Basically it's the same here, but I'm afraid that Squat miniatures get rarer and rarer (and more expensive) each day so I already started gathering some miniatures.

Well, when I'm so far as to get a theme for my force, I might drop some units and use the doctrines system to represent the stubbornness/close combat skills of the Squats.