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Vinsanity
12-05-2008, 16:34
Hey Bloodbowlers.
After a fairly successful short league with my Norse team -the 'Valhallan Rage' (4W-1L-1D), we decided to do new teams. Thus I had an interest in a challenging team, meaning I will go either Vampires or Ogres. Right atm, I'm leaning towards Vampires but only slightly.
Anyways, would anyone be able to help me out with strategy and a good starting roster for Vamps as well as Ogres? That would really be a great help as I've only started BB a few months ago. However, its definately one of the two, so don't suggest an easier team :D. Starting TV is 1 mill.

I was thinking for Ogres something like:
5 Ogres
8 Snotlings
2 RR

and for Vampires:
4 Vampires
7 Thralls
4 RR

Any suggestions or comments would be very helpful coz Im still starting out and tactical advice would be great. Thanks in advance :)

Tennboy
12-05-2008, 18:45
Dark Elves, Nurgle, Chaos, Flings, or Goblins would be considered challenging.

But, if your just hell bound on being masochistic, I'd go with Vamps.

2 Vamps (only having one vamp on the field at a time)
11 Thralls
5 RR

Warning, I don't have the costs in front of me.

But the strategy is to use the Vamps to blitz and create holes or remove tackle zones with hypnotic gaze.

When your playing a vamp team, the name of the game is "Attrition". You will normally put more of your own teammates out with your vamps then the opposition will. And with 4 bloodsuckers on the field, you just end up Eating through your own team to fast.

Lennart.nevanoja
13-05-2008, 10:56
I agree with Vinsanity in many aspects. but you need mote RR for the ogre team two on 8 turns are to little, bone head eats RR like hell. try to get at least 3 to 4 RR to the ogres. the ogre team works on the same principals as any basher team safe the ball and bash em be carefull with the snots because they get easily hurt.

Vinsanity
13-05-2008, 11:27
Hey, thanks for the replies and the advice :)

In regards to Vamps, I think I would go more heavy on the vampires than 2. 3 or 4 sounds more menacing and S and A 4 rocks. Then once a few get levelled up, I'd give them Pro and hopefully I would have enough RR to manage the Bloodlust. I understand that with 3 or 4 Vamps its much riskier but I'm willing to try it out. It seems they can do the passing game fairly well with their agility 4 so I may play around with that. Blitzing with the Vamps sounds good, especially with assists from thralls. Also I suppose that I would move the Vamp players last so all thralls get to the places where theyre most useful. Hypnotic Gaze seems like a fail for me :(. It doesn't stop them from blocking or dodging out but I guess it removes TZ and such which is ok.

Regarding the Ogre team, I do think there is a conundrum between having enough Ogres and having enough rerolls. 4 Ogres, 8 Snots and 4 RRs is the other alternative list, although I thought that 4 Ogres may not be enough... Also I managed ok with 2 RR with a Norse team but with Ogres, Bone Head would indeed eat them up.
Anyone have any further ideas? Any more advice on Ogres or Vamps?

Wow this post turned out more lengthy than I thought :D
Thanks for the replies and keep them coming :cool:

Tennboy
13-05-2008, 13:00
Here is the thing Vinsanity, I would rather have a team with nothing but Thralls and RR, than a team with 4 Vamps. Your thralls are whats gonna win you the games.

Not to mention how great of a coach you become if you can learn to perform with guys who stat line is a 7337 and no skills.

Vinsanity
13-05-2008, 15:09
Thanks for your reply Tennboy, I see where your coming from with limiting the amount of Vampires. But is it really the thralls who will be winning games?

They seem just too average to be specialised at anything and 6337 and no starting skills seems depressing for 40k. Isn't it the vampires 6448 that would do better at winning games? I sorta think Bloodlust is like Bone Head but with much worse consequences ;). But assuming I do fail then I have 4 Rerolls to burn. Thats also before I start building the Vamps with Pro and such. So I could fairly safely fail Bloodlust 4 times per half by rerolling them and hopefully passing. I seem to think that its somewhat safe, at least for me (Im guess Im a bit of a risk taker :D) that 4 vamps (probably 3 on the field and 1 reserve) with 4 rerolls seems sufficient for a team.

What I really don't want to do is max out on thralls and rerolls early on. That seems (imo) to not be what a proper vampire team would look like and sorta goes against the whole idea of collecting vamps. Hope you see where Im coming from :)

Thanks again for your input Tennboy, seems you've helped me lots with Norse and Vamps now :D. Always good to hear your opinions. Keep the replies coming...

SillySod
16-05-2008, 18:43
I would definately prefer to take a vampire team both from a competitive viewpoint and because I think they are more fun. Vampires are easily my favourite team and I'm fairly confident that I'm pretty good with them.

Vampire teams really come into their own between TV 130 and 200. Right at the start the vampires dont have any skills and this uses up alot of re-rolls. Once you have a few vampires with block and dodge you will find that they need much fewer re-rolls and can do alot more. I find that block and odge actually save you as many re-rolls as pro does but with the added benefit that they are more tightly focused with dealing with the ball. On your first few vampires I'd definately take these two skills first.

Remember that your team is about the vampires, your thralls are far from useless but your strategies should focus on using the vampires ability to hit hard, play finesse like elves, and be impossible to knock down.

5 RR, 2 Vampires, 10 Thralls works really nicely in my experience. I'd start with lots of RR and low numbers of vampires for four key reasons:
- its more efficient for winning at low TVs, the RR lets your thralls play the ball reasonably etc, unskilled vampires also require ALOT of RR.
- your two vampires will skill up more quickly. Having a couple of skilled vampires makes all the difference.
- you hit the ideal TV130-200 zone more quickly, getting a third vampire, a decent cadre of thralls is easy and quick and you dont need to worry about RR for a bit.
- the strength and agility of the vampires is best employed to secure the ball... fewer with more skills and RR is much more powerful than lots with few skills/RR.

Focus on developing your team, especially the vampires. By all means let the thralls get some SPP but dont worry too much about focusing on this, your thralls will skill themselves up anyway... no-one knows how they do it but they do aquire SPPs somehow, usually at about the right rate for the team too.

As I have already said focus your strategies about making strikes on the ballcarrier. Keep the pressure up on this and try to use your thralls to keep most of their team from intervening as the vampires make their strike. Dont be afraid to get stuck in with a thrall if they are the best placed for the job though, they are still handy players. On offense just yuse your St4, AG4 blodge to keep the ball secure. Dont let them get too many free hits on the ball but your big strength is that you can burst through nearly any defensive line dodging and blitzing to move forward when you need to and flooding the area around the ball carrier with thralls, a running game works well. Try picking up the ball with a vampire and using he other to spearhead a run up one side of the pitch. If the spearhead succedes then use a quick pass or handoff to get the ball to that vampire, try and delay the score if you can but make sure you score. If the spearhead gets too bogged down or collapses then send your vampire with the ball to the other side of the pitch. Your opponent usually wont anticipate this and often struggles to bring down the vampire having overcommited to stopping your spearhead. The real trick to this tactic is in having just enough thralls and being able to free them up to cover the new offensive.

Good luck.

-fen-
16-05-2008, 19:20
Thanks for your reply Tennboy, I see where your coming from with limiting the amount of Vampires. But is it really the thralls who will be winning games?
When you play Vampires you must always hold the clarion call of the Vampire coach to mind.

"It's all about the Thralls". (IAATT)

Whether it's the Vampires or the Thralls that are doing stuff on the pitch it always comes down to where your Thralls are and what they're doing. As such starting with more Thralls and Rerolls allows you to develop the most important part of your team. It's easy to score and stop TDs with Vampires, but doing it with Thralls is the key step that takes you from being a competent Vampire coach to a talented one. "IAATT, always IAATT".

The rest has already been said.

Tennboy
16-05-2008, 20:57
When you play Vampires you must always hold the clarion call of the Vampire coach to mind.

"It's all about the Thralls". (IAATT)



Thanks Fen, glad to see another experienced BB coach has my back. I was afraid that I was giving unsound advice.

And Sod, if that stuff works for you, right on brother. It's just not how I would go about playing a Vamp team.

Vinsanity
17-05-2008, 09:16
Hey everyone, thanks heaps for the replies, you've all given me something to think about.

Well Ive had 1 game with Vamps last night using my initial list with 4 vamps, 4 rerolls and 7 thralls. Played against Nurgle rotters. I lost 2-0, however I can't remember the last time I've had such atrocious luck :(. There were some really unlucky block dice results that led to my vamps getting a push result for eg. and as such, not being able to score on at least 2 occasions. Not having block on the vamps really hurts. My bloodlust rolling was good throughout though, I probably failed 2 or 3 times total through the game. The worst part of the loss however, was that i got 3 thralls and 1 vamps with MNG and 3 attribute decreases :skull:

It really wasnt such a pritty sight. I was fairly happy with vampires, but not the thralls. If I could scrap the current team, and get a new vamp team (which might indeed happen), then I would go 6 vampires (no joke:eek:), 5 thralls and 2 rerolls; or 5 vamps, 3 rerolls and 6 thralls. Even if it seems against most of what all of you have said, it would seem a radically different play from the usual mass of thralls. I also think it has a lot more potential than my inital list. However, it could just as easily go further downhill than the first roster and game I had with that roster.

So im at a conundrum here, whether to continue Vamps after such a demoralising loss lol. It also may be that I'm comparing the Vamps to my Norse team too much, as it just seems that having the Block skill as apposed to not having it makes the biggest difference in the whole game. Keep in mind I am still a fairly inexperienced coach and thus maybe I am not ready just yet for a Vamp team...

So what do you all think? Is it unwise to max Vamps? Could it work? *Prepares for heavy flaming :D*

If it doesn't, I am still keen to try Ogres or even Skaven since I have looked into their game recently and wondered why I didn't go for them in the first place lol.

Thanks again for all of your help and tactics and advice guys, really helps me a lot. Keep them coming...

jazzdude78
17-05-2008, 10:38
Its risky but high vamps I'm sure could work. But the 1-2 vamps+rerolls+thralls is very tried and true. You run the risk of eating your team and then by the 2nd half having 4 vamps running around trying to not get beaten into the dirt, and yes not having block is very troubling at times.

Swinging to skaven, they're very big on the risk/reward and have access to probably the easiest 1 turn score in the game. But a bad game can basically cost you the season, (it can easily lead to huge avalanche of losses).

the anti santa
17-05-2008, 11:57
6 Vamps and only 2 Re-rolls is a very bad idea.

With so many vamps on the pitch you will either have to leave some of them static or risk failing lots of Bloodlust rolls.

Those 5 thralls won't last long either, as a smart opponent will target the ST3 AV7 guys over the ST4 AV8 regen guys. That combined with you hurting the thralls yourself will mean could could easily end up with few or none left on the pitch by the 2nd half. And a failed Bloodlust will mean the vamp has to run off to the crowd and cause a turnover.

-fen-
17-05-2008, 16:59
Honestly, if you don't like the Thrallls and you're not happy playing with them the Vampire team isn't the side for you. I'd suggest switching to Ogres instead as they are 6 genuine Elite players that you can field all at once.