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Shield of Freedom
18-10-2005, 19:36
I've been playing Warhammer 40K for quite some time(early 2nd edition). A while ago (a year or so) I decided to try my hand at Warhammer Fantasy. I have an Empire army (about 3000pts now) and a Bretonnian Army. I'm hit and miss with the Empire as it is, but I can't seem to win any games at all with Bretonnia. I mostly have the boxed army with some extra units.

Any advice?

1 Lord on Hippogriff
1 Paladin/Lord on Warhorse
1 Paladin Battle Standard Bearer
2 Damsel/prophetess models
24 Knights of the Realm (enough command models for 3 separate units)
16 Peasant Bowmen
8 Questing Knights
3 Pegasus Knights
5 Grail Knights
1 Trebuchet

Obviously I don't use all of this all the time. What can I add? What tactics would work with what I've got? At what point values do these tactics work at?

Thanks a bunch gang.

-Your Shield of Freedom

AllTheWayUlthwe
18-10-2005, 22:38
Well the first thing you need to do is NEVER take the lord on a Hippogriff. He will NEVER bring back his points. Next you need at least a 6 man squad of Errants. Also, I run 8 GRAIL knights and throw in a Damsel inside this unit. Talk about a traget that soaks up alot of fire and punishment and dishes it out as well. You need to have at least 2 Damsels as well at LvL 2 with the LORE OF LIFE. The best magic in the game if you ask me. LOOSE the Trebuchet. Again, unless you are always spot on with guessing distances, then loose it. I cna;t tell you how spot I was with my range only to see the template drift off the unit I was aiming at or even watch my thrower destroy itself with a bad misfire unit. Take at least 3x units of archers with 10x men in them as well and give them Brazires ALWAYS! Braziers will help ut with the REGENERATING units out ther in the game that seem to always turn up in my games at least. So what you have is 2 units of Knights with one unit of Graile Knights and One unit of Errants with 3X units of archers and 2 heros and 2 Damsels. YOu have a great army that will dish out punishment and be able to take it as well. Round this army out with a unit of 4x Pegasuses and you will rock and roll. Use the Pegasuses to hunt down warmachines or gun lines or doom and to then get the rear/flank charges.

Don;t be affraid to manuver for 3 or even 4 turns before launching your attack either. it is better to hit a large block of the enemy with 2 laces of your knights and be sure of a wipe out rather than HOPING that one lance unit will cause enough to that large enemy block. Try to manuver to the flanks of the filed to get the flank charges rather than moving down the middle of the field and getting to the enemy as fast as possible. And, stay away for cannons at all costs. No matter what way you face those cannons you will loose 3 knights, if you take a 8 man block and throw in a character.

Just a few thoughts and let me know how they work for you.

Shield of Freedom
19-10-2005, 02:29
Thanks. :)

Shield of Freedom
19-10-2005, 15:59
I'm goint to try this list in a tournament on Saturday. It's at 2250pts.

Lord
-Grail Vow
-Lance
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
-Birthsword of Carcassone
-Gromril Great Helm
-Enchanted Shield
-Virtue of Discipline

Paladin (Army Battle Standard Bearer)
-Questing Vow
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
-Banner of the Lady
-Virtue of Duty

Damsel of the Lady
-Level 2 wizard
-Warhorse
-Dispel Scroll
-Dispel Scroll

Damsel of the Lady
-Level 2 wizard
-Warhorse
-The Silver Mirror

9 Knights of the Realm (with Free Champion)
-Standard Bearer
-Musician

9 Knights of the Realm (with Free Champion)
-Standard Bearer
-Musician

9 Knights Errant (with Free Champion)
-Standard Bearer
-Musician

8 Quesitng Knights (with Free Champion)
-Standard
-Musician
(The Paladin joins this unit)

3 Pegasus Knights (with Free Champion)
-Standard
-Musician

8 Grail Knights
-Standard
-Musician
(The Lord joins this unit)

Comes out to be 2248 points exactly. Any suggestions? Does it look good?

Latro
19-10-2005, 16:39
I'm goint to try this list in a tournament on Saturday. It's at 2250pts.

<insert list full of knights>

Comes out to be 2248 points exactly. Any suggestions? Does it look good?

It looks like it will be very good at a straight-up fight on an open field ... which also means it will get into trouble if your opponent refuses to give you a straight-up fight and/or if the terrain is unfavourable.

It's basicly like this:

- Knight are good

- Knights with supporting units (fast cavalry and such) are better

An extra unit of Pegasus Knights, some fast cavalry, some archers ... they all will give you more options to handle the nasty unchivalrish tactics your opponent might use.

As an example: my Chaos Khorne all cavalry army has twice as much supporting units as it has heavy hitters.

:cool:

Shield of Freedom
19-10-2005, 17:49
You know, I was thinking about mounted squires for flank charges with my knights. I've seen how well 2 units of Pistoliers support my otherwise all State Troop Infantry Empire army.

I'll see how this list does against my regular opponents here. If I feel like fast Cavalry would have helped more I'll think about some mounted Squires or more Pegasus Knights.

I'm thinking I would drop the Questing Knights all together for these units and stick the Paladin in the Knights Errant unit. Otherwise I don't really have any other way of fitting them in. I can't get rid of my 3 units of knights because I need 3 core choices and I don't have enough time to buy, build (let alone paint) units of Peasants bowmen or halberdiers. I CAN'T get rid of the Grail Knights, they're my favorite unit PLUS the amount of money and time it took me to collect 8 Grail Knights. I'm sure you veteran players and hobbists can appreciate that. :)

Thank you.

Shield of Freedom
19-10-2005, 18:57
I made a new list, I should be able to handle the purchase of the new units and be able to paint at least half of them before Saturday.

I'll need: 5 mounted Yeomen, 1 box of three Pegasus Knights


Lord
-Grail Vow
-Lance
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
-Birthsword of Carcassone
-Enchanted Shield
-Gromril Great Helm
-Virtue of Discipline

Paladin Battle Standard Bearer
-Knights Vow
-Barded Bretonnian Warhorse
-Banner of the Lady
-Virtue of Duty

Damsel of the Lady
-level 2 wizard
-Warhorse
-Dispel Scroll
-Dispel Scroll

Damsel of the Lady
-level 2 wizard
-Warhorse
-The Silver Mirror

9 Knights of the Realm
-Standard
-Musician

9 Knights of the Realm
-Standard
-Musician

8 Knights Errant
-Standard
-Musician
(Paladin joins this unit)

6 Pegasus Knight
-Standard
-Musician

5 Mounted Yeomen
-Shields
-Standard
-Musician
-Warden

8 Grail Knights
-Standard
-Musician
(Lord joins this unit)

comes to 2239 with nowhere to spend the las 11 points.

How's this?

Again, thanks for your help so far guys.

Darth_Senjius
19-10-2005, 19:06
I have a friend who fights with bretonnians. In 1500 points he takes 3 units of novel knights, one of grail knights (small with two damisels ) and 3 pegasus. The archers aren&#180;t effective and never kill his points. Remember, you are a total atack army. Don&#180;t loose time with units that aren&#180;t in combat in the second turn

Shield of Freedom
19-10-2005, 19:28
I have a friend who fights with bretonnians. In 1500 points he takes 3 units of novel knights, one of grail knights (small with two damisels ) and 3 pegasus. The archers arenīt effective and never kill his points. Remember, you are a total atack army. Donīt loose time with units that arenīt in combat in the second turn


I generaly agree, I only OWN 16 bowmen as it is. The rest are all Knights or at least mounted on something.

AllTheWayUlthwe
19-10-2005, 20:31
The problem that I see with your list even your NEW list is that you are falling into the mold of OVER THE TOP Bretonnina players fall into. You are also keeping the stereotype that all of those out there facing off against Bretonnians have, that Brets are a cheesy and broken list. The Bretonnian book has these cool figures called Peasants. The LEAST ANY Bretonnian army should have, adn ESPECIALLY and RT or Tournament army should have is 1 to 3 units of Peasants.

Now I will be the first to agree that Men at arms SUCK. That is why I usually nevfer take them. However ARCHERS are a completely different thing alltogether. They have their stakes that at first glamce don't seem all that good, but take a closer look. Chariots and anything that gets a bounus on the charge are completly negated by the stakes. Also, archers are DIRT CHEAP! I usually run 3 units of 10. Sure they don't kill alot by themselves, but 3 units firing then that will hurt. Also don't forget about the fact that this lone unit of archers on a flank can claim a table quater and sneak victory away from an opponent for taking that extra 100 points.

I know that the Bretonnia list evokes images of heavy cavalry charging across the battlefield. But, if you face a horde army like skaven or undead, you will be seriously screwed. Sure you will slam into a unit of skeletons and kill say 8 of them and they don't kill any of you back. Sure you win by 11 but any undead skeleton unit will ahve at least 20+ models and will soak you up. Then because you have no other supporting units you are stuck there fighting now at ST3 and you catch it in the flank where your ranks are negated. Then even if no one is killed in you unit you will lose to Combat Resolution and you will run away.

Please don't perpetuate the Bretonnian CHEESE stereotype, take SOME Peasants and have them help you out.

As far as you eqipment for your heros, I usually never take a LORD. I take 2 heros and equip one with a Great Weapon and the Virture of Knightly temper. This hero can dish out 6 ST6 attacks and really make an opponent cry. Save the points on the banner of the lady and equip your other paladin the birth sword and some armor. As investing in Graile Knights is expesive and I have the tendancy to lose to Combat res from time to time. I take the banner where I can roll 3 D6 for Ld. This helps make sure that if I got suckered into an attack that I can't win, then I might stick around until help arrives.

I hate to say it that my Pegaus knights only ever make into combat once or twice a game. The reason is that no one likes a unit flying around their backfield. My opponents will turn units in the vain attempt to charge these fellas and all the time they only attack a greatly reduced ST unit or a warmachine.

More later if you want.

Shield of Freedom
20-10-2005, 03:03
Keep it comming Ulthwe, I don't mind constructive critisism at all. If my thinking is flawed, and you're able to show me without being rude (which you've proven you can) then I'll listen to what you have to say. :)

To the others who've taken the time to post, you're opinions are just as welcome. This is a new army for me in a fairly new genre for me. So I appreciate all the help I can get.

-Your Shield of Freedom

Latro
20-10-2005, 07:56
What it basicly all comes down to: if your army is a one-trick pony, no matter how good a trick it may be, some day your opponent will spoil that trick and you will be left totally empty-handed.

Look at your army for example:

As it stands, it's really really good at charging straight ahead, break the enemy and run them down. At the same time, this makes it extremely vulnerable to anything that can disrupt this scenario ...

- What if you're facing several units of Night Goblins filled with fanatics? Add to that some of those awfully cheap Bolt Throwers they have and your allready outnumbered knights will be in for a world of pain.

- What if your facing a true undead horde? Your knights will get stuck in those huge tarpit units and eventually be overwhelmed from all sides. :skull:

- What if your up against those annoying Wood Elves that just laugh at you from the trees and other irritating terrain features ... while shooting arrows at you ofcourse.

- What if you face some big nasty character with the sword of no-saves flying on his dragon of doom? He'll simply avoid your units and take them from the flank or rear. :(

The point is, by making yourself very strong in just one limited pat of the game, you're giving yourself a lot of weak spots as well.

An army like this, for example, would have a lot more options to handle the problems I mentioned:

Lord on a flying monster (flexible and very mobile combat power)
2 damsels (magical defense)
BSB (to lead a hammer unit)

1 unit Grail Knights (aka the hammer)
2 smaller units of supporting knights
2 units of Pegasus Knights (flexible and very mobile combat power)

2 units of mounted Squires
some archers
some skirmishers (can you get those?)

Not having the armybook I'm not sure if the core/special/rare is all correct, but it's just to give you an idea:

- "The Hammer" is able to break just about anything :evilgrin:

- The supporting knights are able to guard the Hammer's flanks, threaten the opponents support units and even break enemy line-units if the Lord does a fly-by or if fast cavalry is charging the flanks.

- Pegasus Knights are ideal to engage enemy missile-units before they can do major damage. After that they can assist in combats where ever they are needed ... it's good to be fast.

- Fast Cavalry is always good to have around. Prematurely release fanatics, lure in some charges, redirect threatening counter-attacks ... you name it, they do it.

- Archers are basicly just there to put presure on the things your other units have a hard time touching: fanatics, skirmishers, flying things


Anyway, hope this helps :)

Shield of Freedom
20-10-2005, 15:02
Thanks Latro, I'll consider it. Keep in mind, my Lord has to be on a Pegasus for two units of Pegasus Knights (or more) otherwise the unit is 0-1. Then again, you did say "flying monster" and that doesn't HAVE to be the Hippogriff.

I agree with the Fast Cavalry statement. My Empire Army lives and dies by the actions of it's two Pisolier units. I'm already in the process of acquiring Mounted squires (Bretonnian Fast Cavalry).

As for Skirmishers, yes we can field them. We buy normal archers and pay +1 point each to remove the stakes and make them skirmishers. However they're 0-1. The great thing is that as the book is written (and I may be wrong) because the unit started out as a bowmen unit I think the skirmishers can still take the standard and musician along with the champion. Something skirmishers usualy can't do.

AllTheWayUlthwe
20-10-2005, 20:22
Yes, the Bowmen skirmishers CAN take a Champ and a Standard. THey are very annoying to your opponent as they are small enough, even at the # I usually take 15 models strong, and with a standard they can charge into a flank and help out a unit of knights that have been stuck in a combat or they can pretty much go up a flank to either contest or take a table quarter.

I have to disagree with taking squires. I found that they usually die too easily. I would much rather take a few magic items, such as the one that lets you regain the blessing for fleeing, or some more archers.

I guess my big focus is on that a Bret army should have @ 3 to 4 BLOCK knight units. These include, KOTR, Questing, Grail, and Errants. Throw in ONE unit of Pegasus, Squires. and 2 to 3 Units of Peasants, choose your own flavor either Bowmen or Men at Arms. Also, depending on the size and points of the game take only 4 to 5 characters. Here you have a list that will be able to take on all comers.

Granted, even this army will be hurting if it faces a certain other types of armies. You still will live and die by the CHARGE, but you have other things to do in the Magic and Shooting phazes as well. Play the whole game and not miss out on doing something in EACH Phase.

My 2 cents.

Patriarch of Sigmar
24-10-2005, 05:19
I have found that more than four pegasus knights ian a unit are a waste of points and look pretty cheesy to boot! Pegasus knights are great at protecting the exposed flanks of your knights and redirecting charges and frenzied units.
Don't miss the extremely cheap errantry banner. It adds +1 to the strength of your knights errant on the charge (for a total of str6). Add to that the fact that they are immune to psychology on the turn that they charge, adn they can actually be a very useful unit. Combien them for charges with the questing knights.

Kahadras
24-10-2005, 09:46
I tend to say you need at least 3 large units of knights in a 2000 point game (thats at least 9 knights in each). With Grail knights you don't need as many but for KotR and Errants you need to really concentrate your attacks. After that I usualy go for a smaller block of knights to protect the flanks of my main units, some Pegasus knights to do the same and then some archer units and mounted yeoman to add more dimention to the army.

Kahadras

Shield of Freedom
24-10-2005, 19:00
All good advice guys, thanks.

Last Saturday my local store started a Warhammer Warband league. I've had time to paint about 300 points of a Bretonnian Warband. Next Saturday will be week 2 and I'm looking forward to using all your suggestions when my warband starts to become an army.

My 200 point warband started with

Paladin 60
-Grail Vow 21
-Lance 4
-Shield 2
-Warhorse 14

3 Knights of the Realm 72

4 Peasant Bowmen 24

Total: 197 points

For the 300 point value in week 2 it stands as this:

Paladin (as above) 101

5 KotR 120
-Standard 16

10 Peasant Bowmen 60

Total: 297