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Darth_DONG
13-05-2008, 16:09
I am going for a Winter defensive theme consisting entirely of Elves.

I have been playing Fantasy for about a year, and I am entirely new to Wood Elves. I was wondering if anyone had any inclination as to whether the following tactic is plausible, and if not, how I might improve on the basic concept.

I wanted to form a battle line consisting of 2 regiments of Eternal Guard. Using the Woodland Ambush rule, I could deploy a forest to serve as the anchor for my "center," regardless of its actual orientation on my table side.

This forest would be home to the following unit:
Eternal Guard
Unit Size: 19
Full Command

Accompanied by the following hero:

Wood Elf Noble
Eternal Kindred
Moonstone of the Hidden Ways

For a combined total of 373pts.

On this units flank (whichever is best), would be the following:

Eternal Guard
Unit Size: 19
Full Command
War Banner

Along with:

Wood Elf Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Royal Standard of Ariel

Total: 473

Now let me explain what I'm thinking with this incredible expenditure of almost 900pts.

The units have a strong synergy (theoretically) that provides a very solid defense. They share magic resistance (1), are both stubborn and re-roll their Break Tests on Ld9. In addition, the more expensive unit is Fear Causing.

If the enemy charges the more expensive unit, they will most likely survive the attack, since my flanks will be guarded by other units (after all I have 1100 other points to spend), and the unit champion can ward off any nasty challenges to the fragile BSB. The enemy unit, theoretically bogged down in a nearly unbreakable unit is then countercharged in any method I deem desirable, and I should certainly hope destroyed.

If the enemy charges the other Eternal Guard, I have a few options. I can warp away, thus trapping the enemy in a forest or otherwise undesirable position, or hold, and attempt a similar resolution as mentioned above.

These two units will of course be supported by the rest of my army, which I'm thinking will consist of:

1 Spell Singer or Spell Weaver
1 unit Glade Riders (5-6 strong)
2 units of Glade Guard (10 strong)
1 unit Warhawks (4)
1 unit Wild Riders

------------------------------

I'm open to criticism, questions or concerns. Anything helpful. Is the Magic Standard I've chosen worth it? Should I boost the Eternal Guard unit sizes? Stuff like that.

Thank you very much for reading my obnoxiously long post.

Bumble the Great
13-05-2008, 16:41
This is a fantastic idea and I have never seen a WE army like this used before
It is a lot of points to have tied up however I think you have taken every precaution to make sure they dont go screaming off the board as soon as something big goes boo at them!

I think a big concern for you is that the unit of EG in the open will be taking alot of misslefire (people see a ranked WE unit and they cant belive their luck) and with T3 and very little armour they are not gonna stand up to that.
So you have to choose the rest of your force with that in mind 2 units of GG is a must -maybe somke scouts as well the wild riders make a good counter charge unit get them in the side of something with the EG in the front and your opponent is gonna know about it what were you thinking of using the GR for? also the warhawks ,they are great at picking out enemy characters on their own and going for war machines but with everything else hanging back they are gonna get alot of attention and at 40pts each (i think?) thats alot of points.
Lastly your probably gonna need at least 2 lvl 2 SS with scrolls for magic defence.

Kudos On coming up with this list tho let me know how it works out

Grey Seer Skretch
13-05-2008, 16:47
Love it! Really different, which I respect. I fear for those units of eternal guard though, coz while you have some nice tricks to play (and trust me, that moonstone is worth its weight in gold!) if someone does manage to pin them down with something suitably better in combat (like, I'm talking leagues better, as in frenzied chosen knights or ogre maneaters or something) they're going to come apart like wet cardboard. On the other hand, thats the essence of welf armies. Only other issue i can see fluff wise is that if its a winter army, wouldnt the wild riders all be otherwise engaged...?

Darth_DONG
13-05-2008, 18:21
How about if I try and plant both units in a forest? Most tables have a variety of terrain, often including a hill or two, a forest or two, and other misc. features. If I can claim the side that has a forest already, I can plant two forests right next to each other. That would be awesome. As long as the two units are within 12" still, their synergy holds up.

OK, on theme and overall improvement:

I was thinking perhaps to move it to a "late autumn" theme, so as to justify the Wild Riders sticking around. Also, my Chaos Mortals already have a winter theme, so it might be fun to paint something else.

The Glade Riders were intended to be a disruptive unit to help the Warhawks march block and to bait enemy units into awkward positions.

I was thinking it might be possible to throw in a Spellweaver for the Wand of Wych Elm, and a Spellsinger to carry scrolls. That would bump my dispel dice up to 5, I could re-roll dispel attempts, and many of my units will have Magic Resistance (1).

---------------

So the list could look something like this:

LORD
Spellweaver
Wand of Wych Elm
270pts

HEROES
Spellsinger
2x Dispel Scroll
140pts

Wood Elf Noble
BSB
Royal Standard of Ariel
190pts

Wood Elf Noble
Eternal Kindred
Moonstone of the Hidden Ways
115pts

CORE
Glade Guard
Unit Size: 10
Musician
126pts

Glade Guard
Unit Size: 10
Musician
126pts

Glade Riders
Unit Size: 5
Musician
129pts

SPECIAL
Eternal Guard
Unit Size: 19
Full Command
War Banner
283pts

Eternal Guard
Unit Size: 19
Full Command
258pts

Warhawk Riders
Unit Size: 4

Wild Riders of Kurnous
Unit Size: 5
Full Command
War Banner
191pts

Total: 1,988

---------------

I want to thank those of you who have commented so far, and I am open to any further suggestions.

Thanks again!

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 09:42
That should certainly sort your magic defence out just one more question tho, how do you see this army winning games? it seems a little low on offensive options
TBH I have only used EG once so I dont really know how good they are as a main combat unit?

Admiral Samuel Eden
14-05-2008, 09:56
You might want to think about a unit of way watchers. Killing blow arrows works wonders. I t can really take the edge off knights and other resilient killing machines. What do you have to stop heavy cavalry, thats my concern, what are you going to do about those 1+ armor saves. Its a nice list and cool but I have never used eternal guard, I play an ambush style force of pure elves with lots of scouts and way watchers. I would say that heavy units are going to be real problem.

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 10:06
Im not to sure on Waywatchers myself never seem kill enough to justify their point cost to me. How may do you take in a unit Eden? Killing blow is nice n all but if you dont roll that 6 its still only a St 3 bow. GG St 4 at close range is a safer bet IMO.
I run a unit of 10 scouts in my list and I find they get alot more freedom and dont die as quickly because they "are only scouts and not waywatchers"
Hee hee stupid stupid opponents

Jerrus
14-05-2008, 10:25
The BSB is VERY vulnerable (t3, 2w), and even if you keep him out of challenges he can still be killed by regulars dedicating attacks against him. Then you lose your reroll and stubborn.

I suggest giving him Oaken Armour or Railarien's Mantle instead of the flag.

Cragspyder
14-05-2008, 11:15
Aside from the low offensive power of the list, fluffwise, there shouldn't be any Wild Riders out and about in the Winter :)

I would swap for Waywatchers or Wardancers if possible.

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 11:22
Wardancers Definatly will take the foucus of the EG units and if you manage to get the WD in the flank while the EG unit is holding them with the stubborn reroll you are on to a winner there

Grey Seer Skretch
14-05-2008, 11:56
Well see now I quite like the Waywatchers thing; normally I'd agree with the Great Mr Bumble on this one as smaller units of them don't tend to pay themselves off, not to mention being fireball fodder, but on this occasion I think they might get those crucial couple of killing blows to weaken otherwise lethal combat units, without presenting themselves to a charge in the meantime. I actually run a waywatcher themed army with 20 of them plus a highborn and noble, both Waywatcher kindred, in 2000 points so you can tell i'm kinda biased...

On the subject of how the army would win games, I think it would dissemble fiercly for the entire game, and win through defensive tactics and clever smoke-and-mirrors stuff. An opponent is going to have to come to you (unless they have an arty gunline, in qhich case your going to have to be a bit clever to deal with the big guns before they can maul your eternal guard too badly) and I can envision this army working like...*gears grind as tries to think of good metaphore*...ok, so if a typical combat army is a 200lb thug with a stick that runs up and beats you with it, and a typical shooty army is a 90lb weakling with a machine gun who sprays shots at you and prays you dont get within arms reach, this army will have to operate like a Judo Blackbelt, taking your opponent's attacks and misdirecting them, throwing them off balance, blocking them, then striking at their weak spots when they overextend...or something...like a fox? or a cake? help me...

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 12:08
Yeah your gonna have to lure your opponent in and let him make a mistake either by getting them to charge the GR or WH and fleeing or by using the moonstone to bamph to a different wood. Either way your probably only gonna have one turn to counter charge and you better make sure you got the tools to do it. I dont think a single unit of wild riders is enough to do this on its own so if you were going to choose between waywatchers or wardancers i think you have to go for the Bouncy Flippy crazy sword wielding loons.........(i mean wardancers by the way! :) )

kroq'gar
14-05-2008, 12:11
And how you going to deal with swordmasters... death isnt tested on an unmodified ld 9...

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 12:14
And how you going to deal with swordmasters... death isnt tested on an unmodified ld 9...

I would suggest shooting the **** out of them with the gg units 5+ saves arnt gonna save ya from 20 longbows at st4 at close range

kroq'gar
14-05-2008, 12:44
I would suggest shooting the **** out of them with the gg units 5+ saves arnt gonna save ya from 20 longbows at st4 at close range

and 3 no armour sure as anything aint gonna save you from RBT's, which any compitent general would prioritise to the WE shooting.

Mercules
14-05-2008, 12:47
and 3 no armour sure as anything aint gonna save you from RBT's, which any compitent general would prioritise to the WE shooting.

Over the Warhawks that will be knocking on their door turn 2? Sure....

kroq'gar
14-05-2008, 12:49
Over the Warhawks that will be knocking on their door turn 2? Sure....

hang back, blast any iminent threats. Do not advance, then shoot the next threat.

Seen it happen- been on the receiving end many a time.

EDIT: Sorry im just being negative. my suggestions would be drop a unit of eternal and favour more wild riders. Use the stubborn unit as an anchor to flank around.

WE are an army of mobility, and large blocks tend to get in the way of their plan (cept for when they teleport through woods :D )

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 13:13
RBT's are a huge threat to WE aspecially the archers sure as sure however I have always found that as long as the battlefield is not a sparce wasteland with nothing to hide behind you can usually stay out of their LoS due the their immobile nature.
On another note kroq'gar as a HE player what do you fear the most in a WE force and what gets your top priority?

Grey Seer Skretch
14-05-2008, 13:28
hang back, blast any iminent threats. Do not advance, then shoot the next threat.

Seen it happen- been on the receiving end many a time.

EDIT: Sorry im just being negative. my suggestions would be drop a unit of eternal and favour more wild riders. Use the stubborn unit as an anchor to flank around.

WE are an army of mobility, and large blocks tend to get in the way of their plan (cept for when they teleport through woods :D )

I think the problem with losing the block of spearmen is that this army list has been picked to a very clear theme, and the more you dilute the list in favour of more effective units, the more you're going to lose the theme. Eternal Guard are quoted as being the guys who police Athel Loren, so you really need a couple of units of them in there if thats the story to your army.

wolfenstein
14-05-2008, 15:48
very cool idea definatley different, but one thing could'nt they just attack your bsb in combat and mug him and then the unit, overrun and then let the rest of the army hit yours?

Darth_DONG
14-05-2008, 19:48
I must admit, I was surprised by the sheer volume of responses since last I checked. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I kind of like the idea of dropping the Wild Riders in exchange for Waywatchers. Although I can't deny the appeal of War Dancers, and they are certainly a great combat unit, I just LIKE the Waywatcher cloak and dagger kind of idea.

I think having the Hawks and Waywatchers should be adequate for disrupting behind enemy lines, war machine hunting, and marchblocking, thus providing me more time to mount a defense.

On the BSB, I admit he's very fragile, I'm going to have to think about him, but I don't really wanna give up the magic banner, since it is such a good defensive option... unless you guys think it's too much of a point sink.

I'm going to put some thought into another revision. I should be able to playtest this concept tomorrow.

isidril93
14-05-2008, 19:58
if i were you i would try it out
if he is too fragile switch the banner

Kukkelukke
14-05-2008, 21:14
Well, i´ve been playing WE about 2 years now. I also fancied the idea of having EG centre in the start, BUT s3 ´really isnt enough to kill anything. A skilled opponent would just outmanouvre your unit or shoot it down. You may be able to hold something back a round or 2, but with t3 they will be slaughtered like caddle.
- Use the armys real strenghts instead of trying to make a block-army with them.
---> SPEED! The WE army is made for speed. Remember that your best fase is the movement fase... Move into good positions and hit hard.

- t3 + s3, 5+ save isnt just enough to be the backbone of an army. Even with a fighter hero inside ;)

Go to the battleglade.com if you need more advice.. ;)

_Lucian_
14-05-2008, 21:16
This list isnt new to me, i have a friend who inherited (kind of) 60 EG's. From watching his games and my own personal experience with warhawks, i would drop them. They generally never make back there points cost and are far to fragile.

I will also agree with removing the BSB, or particularly the royal standard. W/E are notoriously weak and if you plan to use E/g's as a baiting unit then you dont want a t3 elf worth over 200points standing in the front rank waving a banner saying "EASY VP'S".

Using E/G takes alot of finese and i find their best use is in a complimentary group. You have a single unit 3x6. This forms the core and flanked by 2 units of 10. A bsb skulks behind them perferably out of sight in a wood. The key idea is for one unit to take the charge, hold for a single turn so you can counter charge with your hard hitters (normally dryads but thats moot for this theme). deploying 4 deep is abit wasted if you are relying on your stubborn, and at 12 points each the guys are pricey.
The point is that 10 E/G are often enough not to be wiped in a single turn, and also only cost 120points. This is key as it means you can hold your opponent who could be a 500 point strong opponent in place for a crucial turn. Co-ordination is essential, although cheap and 'dispensible' you are still dealing with elves, nothing is really disposable. Flexibilty is synonomous with W/E and as such you can adapt as you see fit.

Personally i would recommend some wardancers 6 strong which can interlock with your units supported by a couple of unit of gg. Maybe recuit an alter kindred with the HoD and HoH for a mobile hammer. This would also leave 2 char slots free for a defensive spellweaver and maybe a wardancer hero (although im unsure on his effectiveness).

This tactic has suprised many opponents and won my friend a decent W/L ratio, providing many entertaining games. He personally runs 3 E/G as i mentioned with 3 dryads supporting and some wild riders. Im sure you can adapt this using war dancers and possible glade riders if necessary however im not sure if you can supply with muscle without forest spirits.

As a recap then they key is to save points to reduce the impact of a enemy shooting and focus on the counter charge. In a straight fight, cheaper foot troops could bog down the E/G's, they effectiveness is not in killing, its in 'gaurding' ;) Sufficient points will be left over to segment your army to remove enemy WM and shooting, with hopefully judicous tree singing and careful depolyment im sure you will have numerous enjoyable evenings ahead of you.

skuller
14-05-2008, 22:16
I used to run something similar but with a huge block of eternal guard 28-30 with the BSB carrying the Royal banner the biggest twist a Lord with the harp that way the unit causes fear, has mr (1) regular save of 5 with a ward save of 5, with two scroll caddy (if I were lucky and get the spell that allows regen then it was a mosnter of a unit that had reg save of 5+ inv of 5+ and then reg 4+, stubborn ld 9 that causes fear .....of course one day my regualr oponnent shot a skull catapult in the middle of the unit killed a couple of dudes like 2-3 took panic and run out of the table loosing the game hahahah
thje rest of the army was either glade guard, riders, wardancers, hawk riders and wildriders

Admiral Samuel Eden
15-05-2008, 07:09
"I'm not to sure on Waywatchers myself never seem kill enough to justify their point cost to me. How may do you take in a unit Eden? Killing blow is nice n all but if you dont roll that 6 its still only a St 3 bow. GG St 4 at close range is a safer bet IMO.
I run a unit of 10 scouts in my list and I find they get alot more freedom and dont die as quickly because they "are only scouts and not waywatchers"
Hee hee stupid stupid opponents"
Sorry for not replying earlier Bumble the Great. I play an ambush army and use lots of units of scouts. which as you said are great. Small units of glade guard and two big units of way watchers. (8) Its a fun list but not my competitive one. I play empire very competitively with a balanced tourney list. My ambush list is still quite effective. The problem I have with wood elves is units with 1+ armor. To be honest, Glade Guard actually aren't as effective as way watchers because if you calculate probability, the way watchers have a much greater chance of taking one down while the glade guard are only reducing enemy armor by 1 and even then, they have to be close. I know way watchers are bullet magnets but they are useful and in this list, he needs something to deal with knights because they will monster his army so to speak. Glade guard are good against infantry and the like but against knights, they'd be hard pressed to kill any of them quick enough. Now way watchers can do multiple things here, get 1 or two kills a turn if unit is 8 strong. Stop cavalry marching which is really important and generally divert pressure from your battle line. I play such a different list that I can't say whether this will help but I can't see how it would hurt. Maybe scouts are a better option.

Bumble the Great
15-05-2008, 10:03
I think that is the problem i am having trying to advise on this list also the fact that i play such a different force. I have a friend that runs a WE force with two units of 10 Waywatchers and he swears by them I guess i have just had a couple of bad experiances with them when I first started out. Alays looking for more ideas tho in fact their is another thread in the fantasy tactics section i have started that im looking to get advice from WE players check it out if ya have the time.

xragg
15-05-2008, 14:49
Ever consider making your lord a highborn and giving him the rhymers harp. Combine your 2 units of EG into a massive unit of 40 (8wide, 5 deep) and then protecting the flanks the best you can. Also, dont forget the Faoghir Banner!! A stubborn unit with Ld10, 2 attacks, spears, 5+ armor, 5+ ward, causes fear, and enemies flee -1d6 when breaking can be a very good centerpiece for an army.

40 EG, full command, Faoghir...560
Highborn, rhymer's harp, spite of annoyance...245

Its one I plan on trying someday when I get enough EG, so I cant offer any more advice on it then my brainstorming.

Admiral Samuel Eden
15-05-2008, 18:32
A unit of 40 EG. whenever I've seen them used they've been in small units and in small units they are quite effective. A unit of 40 is a lot of points and I'm just wondering what would happen when I see easy VP's and shoot that unit with a hell blaster volley gun. I know you can hide but really, they're going to have some trouble staying alive even if they do hide in a wood. They also could be ignored and the rest of your army could get washed out, then they're screwed because WE can't handle combat without support as such. That also is a big sucker for knights. What happens if they get a charge off. A unit of 8 empire knights lets say. I don't know, Its not how I play but it looks really risky.

Mercules
15-05-2008, 18:44
I love the "I'll just shoot it with my Hellblaster." comments people always throw out there. It isn't like the Woodelves have to come to you for combat or can't Treesing a piece of terrain right in front of your artillery pieces.

_Lucian_
16-05-2008, 17:41
I personally dont think the hellblaster comment is simply 'generic' response in this case.... more a statement of point. If you are to spend at least 480points (12*40) on a single unit of t3 5+ AS troops i would want some insurance. That single unit would eat up huge portion of your points and doesnt have the manouvrability to escape all of the threats and still make up its points value. I would assume it would have to be used offensively to ensure its validity and as such would be the focal point of the army. As such with characters and magic items your looking at atleast a 3rd of your army composition as a whole. To blance things out that means if you were to invest in another 300-400 points on enough magical support to use 'treesinging' your left with a woefully small army even for W|E.

This results in your opponent being able to effectively commit half of his army to killing that single unit, which as was mentioned in the 'hellblaster' comment could be achieved in a mere few hundred points of units. Although it is a dice game we all take gambles in every game, creating a unit with such apparent weaknesses means you have to protect at all costs. Only for the unit to arrive at its target out numbered and often unsupported. Any vet will tell you that large Uber units only work with flexibility and speed. The 'killer tzeentch herds' and 'massed knights' which often comprise similar points values are often more flexible and can exert influence early on in the game. In contrast 500+ units which will play no role untill the combat rounds, are left wanting.

For 700points you can buy alot of units which all simply cant be ignored, most of which you will find in any half decent competitive list. There is only so much you can treesing without sacrificing your forward momentum, thusforth losing the game initiative. We all know what happens to armies with super expensive units left in a reactive role, rather than a proactive.

Admiral Samuel Eden
16-05-2008, 22:08
I know that often comments like that are shallow and not very well thought through but in this case it is a little deep, think about it.
I focus on the other elements of your force, the uber unit is hardly going to jump out and catch me off guard so I simply ignore it. Once other threats are neutralized, which there won't be man of with so little points to spend, I can angle myself as I please and set up with hellblaster on one side, knights on the other so that if you tree sing, first I'll try and stop it, second whichever way you move the wood, one of my units is going hit you hard. To put that many points in a unit that can't even hurt 1+ armor and is hardly the toughest unit to crack is madness. To get any sort of positive outcome from the unit you need it being damned aggressive which means your coming to me which means that if I play my cards right I'm going to get shots in and it won't take many shots to kill that unit. The number of points I'd need to spend to neutralize that unit is minimal and its hardly like I'd need specialist to deal this them, nor would I need to buy units that could do little else but hunt them, knights are useful in lots of ways, same with artillery, same as pistoleers who can ride around your uber unit and splat it with pistols. I know that you can counter all of this but in the end, you won't have the points spread enough to really apply pressure.