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View Full Version : Epidemius, Tallyman of Nurgle - thoughts?



StefDa
13-05-2008, 20:56
Epidemius quickly became my new favourite special character. I really like the model and the fluff, and the rules are good too (when you remember the Tally of Pestilence, I reckon).

Suggestions on the best ways to use Epidemius?, let's have them:

I can recommend putting him in a unit of Plaguebearers with the Standard of Eternal Virulence (the Big E has nine poisined attacks...)(preferrably with a Herald of Nurgle in, too, just go grant Regeneration to the 'Bearers). When you charge someone (or is charged, doesn't matter) and all they've got is a unit champion, issue a challenge. Epidemius'll butcher the champion with his total of nine attacks, and probable score a Poisoned Wound, if you're lucky. Otherwise, just use that huge amount of attacks to score some nice combat resolution.

Milney
13-05-2008, 21:26
Hide him behind Ku'gath and laugh as the Tally racks up from the poisoned stone thrower xD

theunwantedbeing
13-05-2008, 21:29
Unit of plaguebearer's, banner of +combat res for poison wounds caused.
make sure to have a bunch of couting nurglings to get a load of poison early on.

As soon as your on 4+ poison the unit beomes virtually unstoppable.
Challenging with him stops a lot of attacks being thrown the way of his unit due to his large base as well.

StormCrow
13-05-2008, 23:01
Having nurgle heralds on palaquins will also help boost the tally quickly, and a great unclean one with nurgling infestation. When you want poison it's definetly quantity over quality!

Dead Man Walking
14-05-2008, 00:48
To make best use of him you put him in an all nurgle army, any other models detract from your kill ratio. ALso I would never field Kugath as he is only a level 1 mage -and- takes up a lord slot. Your going to do more damage with a GUO level 4 mage than with a stone thrower. 4 level 1 mages are going to get shut down (6 powerdice, 5 dispel.) but 3 level 1's and a level 4 will definately put the damage out (9 powerdice, 6 dispel.).

explorator
14-05-2008, 02:37
He looks like a decent General for players who do not want to invest hundreds of points in a leader. High toughness plus regen makes him pretty survivable for a hero.

Oenghus
14-05-2008, 02:40
Try not to use him against lizardmen -- his poison bonus applies to both sides, and you don't want 40 skinks running around poisoning things on a 4+.

Milney
14-05-2008, 07:57
4 level 1 mages are going to get shut down (6 powerdice, 5 dispel.) but 3 level 1's and a level 4 will definately put the damage out (9 powerdice, 6 dispel.).

Mages will always get shut down if your opponent is determined. Stonethrower for the win! ;)

Max zero
14-05-2008, 08:07
Try not to use him against lizardmen -- his poison bonus applies to both sides, and you don't want 40 skinks running around poisoning things on a 4+.


My Ghoul based VC army loves Epidemius too.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 10:33
They gain no bonuses from it. It says NURGLE models. Gutted.

Max zero
14-05-2008, 10:41
They gain no bonuses from it. It says NURGLE models. Gutted.

p57 The Tally of Pestilence



Note that these effects are cumulative and affect both sides.


While the wound tally can only be generated by Nurgle models the table's effects apply to both sides.

Remember Father Nurgle does not care what decays only that it decays.

Benzan
14-05-2008, 10:41
What about clan pestilence then.
Our stuff dun hurt nurgle as bad as others, our plaguerats should get your bonus aswell *grin*

Don't plame me for being greedy, I play skaven after all

Max zero
14-05-2008, 10:43
What about clan pestilence then.
Our stuff dun hurt nurgle as bad as others, our plaguerats should get your bonus aswell *grin*

Don't plame me for being greedy, I play skaven after all

They gain 4+ poison attacks too.

eleveninches
14-05-2008, 10:53
Units of plaguebearers with banner of x2 CR for poisonned wounds

Chris_Tzeentch
14-05-2008, 10:56
Epidemius quickly became my new favourite special character. I really like the model and the fluff, and the rules are good too (when you remember the Tally of Pestilence, I reckon).

Suggestions on the best ways to use Epidemius?, let's have them:

I can recommend putting him in a unit of Plaguebearers with the Standard of Eternal Virulence (the Big E has nine poisined attacks...)(preferrably with a Herald of Nurgle in, too, just go grant Regeneration to the 'Bearers). When you charge someone (or is charged, doesn't matter) and all they've got is a unit champion, issue a challenge. Epidemius'll butcher the champion with his total of nine attacks, and probable score a Poisoned Wound, if you're lucky. Otherwise, just use that huge amount of attacks to score some nice combat resolution.

I use the following in one unit :-

1 Epidemius

1 Herald of Nurgle
1 Level 1 Wizard
1 Palanquin
1 Noxious Vapours
1 Slime Trail
1 Army Standard
1 Banner of Unholy Victory

16 Plaguebearers
1 Plagueridden
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence

Epidemius provides all the usual nasty stuff, and the other Herald gives regeneration to the Plaguebearers. Slime trail prevents enemy units gaining any flanking bonuses, and noxious vapours means that anyone in base contact with him always strikes last. Needless to say I position him on the corner of the unit. His banner provides +D3 combat resolution on top of the +1 for being an army standard. The Icon of Eternal Virulence provides extra combat res for poisoned attacks, which provided the Tallymans first tally count is met (which is relatively easy), then over 50% of attacks are going to be poisoned. All in all, a pretty damn nasty unit.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 13:14
Max, have you read the entry? Clever quoting.

"Whilst Epidemius is alive, keep a count of all unsaved wounds caused by NURGLE DAEMONS (from both sides). At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below to determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. Note that these affects are cumulative and effect both sides. (read; Nurgle Daemons on both sides."

The "both sides" refers to an example of Nurgle Daemons on opposing armies. It says NOTHING about other armies benefiting form this.

If you look at Skarbrand, it specifically says his hatred applies to the enemy. This is just an example of Nurgle vs Nurgle.

Sure, be WAACy... I won't have to play you.

Nabeshin1106
14-05-2008, 13:27
No where does it say that the effects only effect Nurgle models, just that Nurgle models have to be the ones causing the wounds. Granted, 3 of the 4 effects are only effecting Daemonic Nurgle armies, but the poison bonus does not specify Nurgle models.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 13:32
Hmm...that's an interesting question Mum.

I actually read it (the first time) as BOTH sides...meaning any units in the enemy army get the bonuses to Poison too, as the Tally rises...but reading it again, as you have laid it out there....DOES make it kind of suspect.

Clearly no other poisoned unit in the game OTHER than a Nurgle Daemon will benefit from the bonuses to Nurgle Magic that the Tally provides...and the Epidemius thing is exclusive to Epidemius, obviously. The one that everyone is thinking about is the "4+ to Poison" plateau...but it becomes MUCH better if enemy armies / Skinks / Ghouls / etc. can't benefit from it !


Thoughts ?

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 13:38
IMO it is a specific example of Nurgle vs Nurgle. It does not make specific mention of the enemy benefiting like Skarbrand's entry does.

What this entry does is tell you how to play it when both sides are Nurgle daemons. "Both sides" refers to both sides of Nurgle Daemons. If it had said "All unsaved wounds caused by poison" it might be different. But it specifically mentions Nurgle Daemons.

The new Daemon AB is the worst written AB ever.

Spirit
14-05-2008, 14:19
I was considering combining epidemius with a flying daemon prince with the S4 breath weapon, marked as nurgle.

Turn one or 2 and you will get your 8 kills on a ranked up unit!

Nabeshin1106
14-05-2008, 14:25
IMO it is a specific example of Nurgle vs Nurgle. It does not make specific mention of the enemy benefiting like Skarbrand's entry does.

What this entry does is tell you how to play it when both sides are Nurgle daemons. "Both sides" refers to both sides of Nurgle Daemons. If it had said "All unsaved wounds caused by poison" it might be different. But it specifically mentions Nurgle Daemons.

The new Daemon AB is the worst written AB ever.

I will say that it's a bit of a loophole that I pointed out, one i would not look forward to using against my Skink happy best friend, but it is how the RAW seems to read.

I'll probably just not use Eppy against anything I know is Poison heavy.

Max zero
14-05-2008, 15:28
Max, have you read the entry? Clever quoting.

"Whilst Epidemius is alive, keep a count of all unsaved wounds caused by NURGLE DAEMONS (from both sides). At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below to determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. Note that these affects are cumulative and effect both sides. (read; Nurgle Daemons on both sides."

The "both sides" refers to an example of Nurgle Daemons on opposing armies. It says NOTHING about other armies benefiting form this.

If you look at Skarbrand, it specifically says his hatred applies to the enemy. This is just an example of Nurgle vs Nurgle.

Sure, be WAACy... I won't have to play you.

Well your the one putting in words that are not there not me. I don't think its WAACy at all. I think its intentional. As I said before Nurgle does not care where the corruption comes from only that it comes. In the very Nurgle fluff in the pages before it mentions this. When Skarbrand is on the table there is a lot more fighting and bloodshed. When Epi is, there is a lot more poisoned attacks.

My opinion is just as valid as yours.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 17:07
I presented the quote exactly accurately with my own emphasis at the end.

Btw, fluff and rules never mix.

explorator
14-05-2008, 19:16
I presented the quote exactly accurately with my own emphasis at the end.

You did state the rule, which says "effects are cumulative and affect both sides."
You did not mention the table that lists the effects "All poisoned attacks will now automatically wound on a ..."

"Both sides" indicates both armies, and "All" means all. The Tally of Pestilence benefit that improves the chance to auto-wound with poison affects every model on the field that has poisoned attacks.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 19:27
It still has room for interpretation IMO. GW have made a pigs ear out of some of these rules.

Gloryseeker
14-05-2008, 23:04
the rule, which says "effects are cumulative and affect both sides."
lists the effects "All poisoned attacks will now automatically wound on a ..."


It still has room for interpretation

I dont know how you can interpretate this differently that what is clearly stated. I think your looking for a loophole were there is none.

kaintxu
15-05-2008, 00:03
Its clear that they affect both side, beeing nurgle or not.

How the hell do you get to the conclusion that is just a example of 2 nurgle armies fighting? where does it mention anything like that?.

It clearly stats all poisoned attacks, so skinks get poison and everyone does

minionboy
15-05-2008, 00:28
I was considering combining epidemius with a flying daemon prince with the S4 breath weapon, marked as nurgle.

Turn one or 2 and you will get your 8 kills on a ranked up unit!

I was thinking something similar... How about Ku'Gath? He's got a Stone Thrower that wounds on 2+. That sounds like a fast way to rack up the wounds!

The downside is that he's a level 1 sorcerer, so under 3k points, you're just working quickly for +5 to cast with 1 spell. :(

minionboy
15-05-2008, 00:30
Its clear that they affect both side, beeing nurgle or not.

How the hell do you get to the conclusion that is just a example of 2 nurgle armies fighting? where does it mention anything like that?.

It clearly stats all poisoned attacks, so skinks get poison and everyone does

Hmmm... Nurgle Daemons vs Nurgle Daemons. Quick to 4+ poison and +10 to casting all Daemon Lore of Nurgle! >:O

Spirit
15-05-2008, 00:47
The other idea i was playing with was 3 lvl one heralds all with the bound "d6 S5 take a toughness test or suffer it again, and then a decent caster.

Even 2, the tallyman and a prince (also with the bound?) is one hell of a lot of magic to stop, and they have to use 2 dice else one of the bounds should get through every turn.

on a related note, what happens if its nurgle vs nurgle and they BOTH have the tallyman?!

Horus38
15-05-2008, 20:47
In regards to the Tallyman bonus counting towards other armies:

* Nurgle demons from both sides generate the wounds for the tally.
* The charts affects both sides regardless of army, however the only thing that is affected are nurgle demons EXCEPT for the poison bonus which affects everyone with a poison attack.

This is the most logical answer as it would have said: "All poisoned attacks from Nurgle demons will wound..." if it was intended that way.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-05-2008, 21:32
That's kind of how I was thinking it should be played to. GW could have written it differently...but the way they do makes it SEEM that they mean for ALL models to get the poison enhancement.

Fluff-wise it makes sense given Epidemius' history and it also ties in with what they did to Skarbrand and his ability affecting the entire battlefield with Hatred.

-----

They will probably FAQ this in the Daemon FAQ being compiled even now (for delivery in July).


:-)


Till then, I'd play it as EVERYONE gets the benefit of the Poison Enhancement, but ONLY Nurgle Daemons get the bonus to their casting (from the Daemon Lore of Nurgle, so it really only CAN be Nurgle Daemons that would have access to that Lore).

minionboy
15-05-2008, 21:35
on a related note, what happens if its nurgle vs nurgle and they BOTH have the tallyman?!

+10 to cast!!! :evilgrin:

StefDa
18-05-2008, 13:51
Whoa, what a discussion I've sparked!

EndlessBug
18-05-2008, 14:17
Reading his rules it is obvious that the effects of it affect both sides, it reads to me as:

The number of wounds are those caused by nurgle models ("Keep a count of all unsaved wounds caused by Nurgle daemons").

It then re-specifies the restraints of the ability when it states "Note that these effects are cumulative and affect both sides", therefore the bonus' apply to both sides, pretty clear and obviously intended by GW in my mind.

It just so hawppens that most of the benefits only do actually effect nurgle models anyway, still the opponent still gets it. Enemy spellcasters still get +5 to cast nurgle spells, it just so happens that they don't have any to cast thus nullifying the effect.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-05-2008, 17:22
Right. That sounds the most reasonable. It's also the idea that Nurgle doesn't care where filth, disease, and death comes from, just that it comes. Thus the Tally makes poisons more deadly and that is seen in the whole table-wide bonuses to Poisoned Attacks, etc.

Ravening Wh0re
19-05-2008, 00:22
Wow. Can't wait to get some witch elves against Nurgle daemons :D

speedstream
19-05-2008, 03:49
I'm quite new here, but I believe I may be able to end this argument,
Please direct your attention to the bottom of this page:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120051&prodId=prod1170241&rootCatGameStyle=

It says:

"Of course, Epidemuis is a bit of a double edged sword if your opponent is also using Nurgle Daemons!"


This is right from the gamesworkshop site, and although it could still be argued, I think this makes it quite clear of their intentions.

-Speed

KUMA
19-05-2008, 04:57
IMO it is a specific example of Nurgle vs Nurgle. It does not make specific mention of the enemy benefiting like Skarbrand's entry does.

What this entry does is tell you how to play it when both sides are Nurgle daemons. "Both sides" refers to both sides of Nurgle Daemons. If it had said "All unsaved wounds caused by poison" it might be different. But it specifically mentions Nurgle Daemons.

The new Daemon AB is the worst written AB ever.

Regardless of how you want to read it, the effect from the tally works for all armies involved. The part you are confusing is what triggers the tally.

giner
19-05-2008, 12:25
Enhancement, but ONLY Nurgle Daemons get the bonus to their casting (from the Daemon Lore of Nurgle, so it really only CAN be Nurgle Daemons that would have access to that Lore).
I think some Tzeentch daemons would like a word with you, amybe glean some information.

EndlessBug
19-05-2008, 17:05
I think some Tzeentch daemons would like a word with you, amybe glean some information.

if you read the spell again it states "cast at its base casting value", so bonus' to cast are ignored.

I had the same query with aldred casket of sorcery and that has the same statement.

so no the hurgle spell bonus' do not affect these items/spells.

speedstream
19-05-2008, 22:33
I'm quite new here, but I believe I may be able to end this argument,
Please direct your attention to the bottom of this page:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120051&prodId=prod1170241&rootCatGameStyle=

It says:

"Of course, Epidemuis is a bit of a double edged sword if your opponent is also using Nurgle Daemons!"


This is right from the gamesworkshop site, and although it could still be argued, I think this makes it quite clear of their intentions.

-Speed


I posted this earlier, but it wasn't showing up so I just wanted to make sure it didn't get missed now that the admins have kindly fixed the problem. I was hoping this could solve the problem, but I'm not sure so I was wondering what you all think about it.

popisdead
23-05-2008, 21:53
in fantasy w/ a couple units of two beasts he'll really shin when you're unit of 15 plaguebearers hit combat. i would take him.

scairyfairy
26-05-2008, 01:54
I posted this earlier, but it wasn't showing up so I just wanted to make sure it didn't get missed now that the admins have kindly fixed the problem. I was hoping this could solve the problem, but I'm not sure so I was wondering what you all think about it.

I'm pretty sure that this is referring to the bonus to cast and that it will happen almost twice as fast since the tally increases when Nurgle daemons do wounds. The poison thing counts for both sides regardless of whether they are both Nurgle or not the way I interpret the rules as they are written.