PDA

View Full Version : 25 power dice, 13 dispel dice???



Jagosaja
13-05-2008, 21:58
In an army of 2250 points!!!

It was unimaginable before, but with a Tzeentch army like this it is perfectly OK:

Lord of Change (lvl 4) and 3 Heralds of Tzeentch, all with Power Vortexes, and 3 units of Horrors, each 30 strong.

How the hell am I supposed to survive such massive destructive power? Some armies can be specialised to deal with this, such as High Elves with the magic thingy to cancel enemy magic phase, but what about other armies? What about armies which cannot shoot? Can any "all around" army deal with this horror?

Is this too much power or am I missing something? I know that this army sucks in combat, but I fail to see someone reaching this before being vaporised.

theunwantedbeing
13-05-2008, 22:06
Doesnt power vortex eat up wounds from your characters?
Which means that the whole 25 powerdice nonsense is a bit daft.

Watch me elaborate.
Skaven 2k list
seer,3x warlock engineers with full upgrades, they spend every point of magical item allowance on warpstone tokens.
The seer is also riding a screaming bell.

Seer generates 4 dice on his own, plus 2 for the bell, plus 2 from the pool.
The warlocks each generate 2 themselves.
That's 14 so far.
Add in warpstone tokens..the seer starts with 4 and get's an extra 10.
14 extra power dice, so 28 so far.
The warlock's each have their initial 1 plus a further 5 each.
That's 18 more powerdice.
So you can have your 25 powerdice tzeentch army....see how it fares against my 46 powerdice skaven army that makes a total mockery of your magic phase.

You have 3 heralds each in a unit of 30 horrors presumably and a lord of change.
That's not a big army at all.
The lord of change will get shot to bits, then people will fight your horror units and slowly grind them down diminishing your ability to cast noticably.

Skaven 46 powerdice.
Tzeentch 25 powerdice.

Skaven > Tzeentch.

Shamfrit
13-05-2008, 22:12
Doesnt power vortex eat up wounds from your characters?
Which means that the whole 25 powerdice nonsense is a bit daft.

Watch me elaborate.
Skaven 2k list
seer,3x warlock engineers with full upgrades, they spend every point of magical item allowance on warpstone tokens.
The seer is also riding a screaming bell.

Seer generates 4 dice on his own, plus 2 for the bell, plus 2 from the pool.
The warlocks each generate 2 themselves.
That's 14 so far.
Add in warpstone tokens..the seer starts with 4 and get's an extra 10.
14 extra power dice, so 28 so far.
The warlock's each have their initial 1 plus a further 5 each.
That's 18 more powerdice.
So you can have your 25 powerdice tzeentch army....see how it fares against my 46 powerdice skaven army that makes a total mockery of your magic phase.

You have 3 heralds each in a unit of 30 horrors presumably and a lord of change.
That's not a big army at all.
The lord of change will get shot to bits, then people will fight your horror units and slowly grind them down diminishing your ability to cast noticably.

Skaven 46 powerdice.
Tzeentch 25 powerdice.

Skaven > Tzeentch.


Most deliciously put.

And you get several large units of Clanrats and Slaves and Jezzails to boot.

minionboy
13-05-2008, 22:14
Power Vortex is just 1 extra power dice, no penalty. :P

Helbracht
13-05-2008, 22:16
If someone hoards power dice like that against me, I just wont face them again. Simple as that. I play Warhammer, not Magichammer. 14 is probably the max I'd consider "reasonable".

Suspicions
13-05-2008, 22:22
@ Unwanted

But the Tzeentch power dice don't wound you / miscast on a roll of a 1...and they have a spell that can grant even -more- power dice, and you would be playing a Skaven list that is almost certain to destroy itself, and can't make full use of all those warpstone tokens each phase (warplock engineers = 2 spells apiece vs. Horrors with 4 spells each, Haralds with 2 spells each)...furthermore...

You don't mention how the Skaven list would actually survive the Tzeentch magic phase...you've many power dice...yes...but the magic resistance of the bell is the only notable defense you have plus 2 dispel pool, 2 grey seer, and 3 Warplock and no dispell scrolls = 7 dice and many dead rats

Milney
13-05-2008, 22:36
In an army of 2250 points!!!
Is this too much power or am I missing something? I know that this army sucks in combat, but I fail to see someone reaching this before being vaporised.

Use terrain?

I count 1 Demon Lore of Tzeentch spell which doesn't need line of sight - and that needs to be within 12".

Also, screening? Assassin-type characters?

Hell a Cavalry "spearhead" could hit them in turn two.

Whilst it is a daunting prospect, I'd love to see it miscast on its first turn, ending the phase and then seeing the army pounded into the ground.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-05-2008, 22:45
25 dice sounds impressive, but when it's literally all you've got, it had better be. I suspect your basic Bretonnian lance armada, for example, would simply run this list over before it could do enough damage.

Jagosaja
13-05-2008, 22:47
Also, warpstone tokens are one use only, while power vortex generates dice every phase. But this is not a thread to elaborate the strength of Skaven, but Tzeentch. Those 13 dispel dice can halt even entire 1-dice-casting phase of a Vampire Counts army tooled up for magic. This army is plainly brutal in magic phase. How to defeat this with VC or BoC?

The thing is, unlike in the previous edition, most spells are very destructive now, and Magic Missiles have a range of 18-24". With unreasonable high strength, I can see 2 castings destroy a cavalry unit, and with 25 dice much more can be destroyed afterwards. What screen can sustain 2D6 hits of D6+4 strength? It is not that hard to cast that spell with lvl 3 wizard unit. And then cast it 3 times. God Damn!!! And those damn horrors do not roll on miscast table when they roll snake eyes, no, it would be too good, they lose petty D6 horrors.

StormCrow
13-05-2008, 22:59
46 power dice skaven...dang, better bring out the blue scribes!

Milney
13-05-2008, 23:21
The thing is, unlike in the previous edition, most spells are very destructive now, and Magic Missiles have a range of 18-24". With unreasonable high strength

Unreasonably high strength? Have fun rolling 1s and landing a mighty 2 Str2 hits.



I can see 2 castings destroy a cavalry unit, and with 25 dice much more can be destroyed afterwards.

Only a couple of Tzeentch spells really threaten a decent cavalry charge, and considering that Daemons can't recast spells like certain other lists out there strategic use of a "balanced" lists 'mandatory' 2 scrolls could see enough of the unit make it through to seriously mess up the pathetically feeble Tzeentch Heralds and Horrors.



What screen can sustain 2D6 hits of D6+4 strength? It is not that hard to cast that spell with lvl 3 wizard unit.


They don't need to sustain it. I don't think you understand the point of a screen. In fact it would be bad if they all managed to survive as it'd block off your charge. As long as they soak up 1 spell (2 if you're lucky) they've served thier purpose.



And then cast it 3 times. God Damn!!! And those damn horrors do not roll on miscast table when they roll snake eyes, no, it would be too good, they lose petty D6 horrors.

It doesn't matter if they don't roll on the miscast table. Taking casualties from an expensive and fragile unit, using up dice and most importantly using up that turns casting of said spell are enough to put a serious dent in your day.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be impressed by a PD heavy list and would tread carefully should I face one. But you seem to be thinking that it would be some super-gun-line-on-crack that would obliterate all each magic phase.

The simple fact is, gunlines are brutal because of thier reliability. Properly geared a gunline can unleash its payload pretty regularly with limited potential for any cock-ups.

Magic, on the other hand, is pretty erratic. All-or-nothing as it were. Instead of the "gamble" of to-hit rolls you deal with trying to meet the casting value. Fail? Well then nothing happens at all.

Not to mention things like a Dark Elf running around with an Assassin/Flying Noble using Ring of Hotek, a High Elf with Void Shard/Null Stone/Banner of the World Dragon etc etc would put a real dent in your day.

Units skirmishing through terrain would also put pressure on you. A canny general would move them into charge position just as thier main force was nearing a suitable distance. What would you do then? Go all out on the skirmishers to prevent them cutting down your squishy mage-line; leaving the main force to advance unhindered? Vice versa? Split fire and hope for the best?

sulla
13-05-2008, 23:31
You have 3 heralds each in a unit of 30 horrors presumably and a lord of change.
That's not a big army at all.
The lord of change will get shot to bits, then people will fight your horror units and slowly grind them down diminishing your ability to cast noticably.



Just being in combat significantly reduces their casting ability... gift and boon are the only tzeench spells they can use and if they use lots of dice fromboon to cast gift, they are asking for miscasts.

Cap'n Facebeard
13-05-2008, 23:40
Vampire Counts could also try Spirit's awesome idea, in another post, of the flying frostblade assassin vampire. Goodbye LoC.

SPYDER68
14-05-2008, 00:22
If someone hoards power dice like that against me, I just wont face them again. Simple as that. I play Warhammer, not Magichammer. 14 is probably the max I'd consider "reasonable".

Whats the point of playing if your going to refuse every army list you dislike ?

or consider unreasonable bye "your" standards ?

Lordmonkey
14-05-2008, 00:31
My nuclear warhead is bigger than your nuclear warhead...

Znail
14-05-2008, 01:47
@ Unwanted

But the Tzeentch power dice don't wound you / miscast on a roll of a 1...and they have a spell that can grant even -more- power dice, and you would be playing a Skaven list that is almost certain to destroy itself, and can't make full use of all those warpstone tokens each phase (warplock engineers = 2 spells apiece vs. Horrors with 4 spells each, Haralds with 2 spells each)...furthermore...

You don't mention how the Skaven list would actually survive the Tzeentch magic phase...you've many power dice...yes...but the magic resistance of the bell is the only notable defense you have plus 2 dispel pool, 2 grey seer, and 3 Warplock and no dispell scrolls = 7 dice and many dead rats

The Heralds also only get two spells as Master of Sorcery is out of reach when getting the power vortex. Tzeentch spells also have fairly short range, so they entire army will need to march ahead to get in reach. This leaves only one turn to kill the opponents before fast units can charge. Some scrolls and well placed dispell dice could neutralise that one turn and spell total doom for the Tzeentch host. Knights would be the bane of this army.

Alpha_Wolf
14-05-2008, 01:48
Whats the point of playing if your going to refuse every army list you dislike ?

or consider unreasonable bye "your" standards ?


Maybe he plays with others who like to have fun and aren't powergamers?

Helbracht
14-05-2008, 02:02
Whats the point of playing if your going to refuse every army list you dislike ?

or consider unreasonable bye "your" standards ?


Maybe he plays with others who like to have fun and aren't powergamers?


Exactly. What's the point of playing an enemy you wont have fun against.

xragg
14-05-2008, 03:09
Only 3 units??? Three horror units (not exactly the best of demons in CC). I dont care how many power dice you have, thats weak.

Kerill
14-05-2008, 04:15
Add in the blue scribes to the daemon force and your skaven will be gifting another magic die to your opponent for every spell cast. Also 48 power dice is not that useful since the engineers only have one spell each and the seer has 4. So you can cast 7 spells per turn. The Tzeentch army can cast 30 spells per turn if their magic dice hold out.

Still either army would be so WAAC to play and the Tzeentch army would be raped by shooting and/or combat especially since most spells are 18" or less.

Suspicions
14-05-2008, 05:26
After seeing the results of a similar list (horror units were held at 15 I believe, but the army included 2 units of screamers and 2 units of flamers -also no Greater Deamon) the apparent frailties of the Tzeentch list are easily mitigated through use of the screamers to march block and kill warmachines, and the flamers / absurd number of magic missiles to burn anything that closed in. This combined with the horrors having a 4+ ward with the Herald in the unit, makes this list truly hard to play against without a force tailored to beat it. The Daemon player got off a grand total of 3 rounds of magic / shooting after which nothing effective was left of the opposing player's army.

Solution? Heavy Cav forces (horsehammer) and chariots are great...better if they are dragon princes (immune to flaming attacks...of which almost everything Tzeentch throws counts as) also hoard armies (skaven and Orcs and Goblins come to mind) that can take insane casualties and still have intact units to smash into the daemonic infantry.

In short, an all Tzeentch list that focuses on its shooting and magic capabilities -will-, hands down, out shoot and out magic any other army in the game at this point. I am fully convinced of this after witnessing it myself...if you've not seen such a force in action, I would respectfully suggest you observe such a game and then decide if you require a tailored list to best an all Tzeentch army.

highway45
14-05-2008, 06:21
The only place most of us will see A list like this is at GT. This is also a good reason to play in tournaments with a comp system. As far as how to beat it time will tell. PH are not that bad in combat with a herald for a 4+ WS. It took forever to chew through them with a block of Phonix guard and a unit of Dragon princes on the flank. You have to kill or pop them to the man, it is tougher then many give it credit.

WusteGeist
14-05-2008, 06:46
Alpha_Wolf Helbracht

Are the two of you players that tell other players how to play? How to build armies? What is ok and what is not? Forgive me but I thought this game was a very modular system? That there was no predetermined system of how to make a list. That every build till proven other wise has a chance at doing something? It's the mind set of overly simple players like you two that make this game no fun. You think that everything should be a set way and gods help you if its not. Because you cant use your minds to think up new counters to new problems, no instead you belly ache about how its unfair or cheesy. Grow up learn some tatics then complain about how hard it is to beat something, after you tryed instead of going gut reaction first to complain like spoiled lil kender.

Znail
14-05-2008, 06:51
The heralds give nice bonuses, but they are far from difficult to kill and then those bonuses are gone. This hurts even more if its the BSB. The army with a mixed type of Tzeentch daemons wont be that uncommon as many play mono-god armies due to the old fluff. It will take time before those with old armies aquire more of other gods to make the army nicer to play against.

Max zero
14-05-2008, 08:22
Alpha_Wolf Helbracht

Are the two of you players that tell other players how to play? How to build armies? What is ok and what is not? Forgive me but I thought this game was a very modular system? That there was no predetermined system of how to make a list. That every build till proven other wise has a chance at doing something? It's the mind set of overly simple players like you two that make this game no fun. You think that everything should be a set way and gods help you if its not. Because you cant use your minds to think up new counters to new problems, no instead you belly ache about how its unfair or cheesy. Grow up learn some tatics then complain about how hard it is to beat something, after you tryed instead of going gut reaction first to complain like spoiled lil kender.

He didn't say don't make the list. He said he won't play against.

I don't like the list and wouldn't play it. Thats my choice. Go play someone else.

The thing is, with a list like that, not many people will want to play against it at all.

So you can go play with yourself. Got it?

klarke
14-05-2008, 08:39
If both players aren't going to enjoy a game there is simply no point in playing it.

Armilthuan
14-05-2008, 09:18
I agree with you Klarke, unless it is in a tournament.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 10:32
You forget Boon of Tzeentch turning 4 of thos epower dice into a possible 16 more!

Mike KK
14-05-2008, 10:47
tbh i think the answer to this stupid tzeench magic phase is hellheart next turn you got ****** loads of ogres in your face and charging u.

or high elves with all the anti-magic spells and items they have

wamphyri101
14-05-2008, 10:48
Try using that against a mounted high elf army with vortex shard. Your going to be in combat by turn 2 and by then your magic will be pointless.

Dranthar
14-05-2008, 11:13
25 Powerdice = regular miscasts. Even losing the 'petty' D6 horrors has a decent chance of dropping your magic and as has been said, I'm not convinced an army like this will do much against horde armies.

Also, a max 24" range means that the daemons will either have to move forward in the first turn to start letting off spells, or the opponent gets the first turn. It's a minor advantage, but let's also remember that unless those daemons want to risk moving into range and getting charged, artillery will be pretty safe.

If all else fails and this list really is as broken as people are saying, remember that there's very little honour or skill in winning with an army like that.
I'd gladly face it myself - if I lose then it says nothing about me or my opponents skill, but if I win I know it would be because I'm a great deal better than my opponent at the game. :D

lachlin
14-05-2008, 11:24
I wouldn't play against this list, and there are cheesy bastards at the LGS that would use this type of list in a "friendly" game. I am also pretty confident that our area isn't the only point on the face of the planet that has people that would try to use this list in a friendly game...

Gralph!?!
14-05-2008, 11:58
hmmmm... y7es that is alot of powerdice and a fair few dispel dice but with my orcs i could have it rather nicely. my wyvern CAN get a first turn charge and will chew through lots of infantry and i have a rather large amount of units and wounds in said units so i can take alot of your damage.

in the end as everyone has said this list is pretty weak, a single bad round of magic and you are pretty much stuffed as alot of armies will kick the crappers out if you in combat. one thing would be ammusing though, watching a suarus oldblood with blade of realities and jaguar pendant running amoke against the lord of change and whooping units of horrors by himself. a lord of change will not like that as it gets no ward, it alsotakes double wounds. simply give him the maiming shield and the mark of sotek and that is then 7 attacks on the charge that will cause alot of hurt.

SPYDER68
14-05-2008, 12:54
If both players aren't going to enjoy a game there is simply no point in playing it.

everyone has armies they dont like to play against, i mean its a challenge that makes it fun, does it worry you that much if you lose ?

if your worried about losing which would be the only reason not to play certain things then why play ?

btw, i just hate players who refuse to play vs certain armies just because they dont like their rules or the list the are against.

Armilthuan
14-05-2008, 13:02
All players play for the enjoyment of the game, whether this is to pound the opponent in the dust, play a challenging game or a playing a fun and/or fluffy game.

Please accept that enjoyment can vary from person to person.

kroq'gar
14-05-2008, 13:02
Stop only the spells you have to, and use max dice on those you want to cast (for greater total power chance, or them an instant failure chance)

This is in part their shooting phase. Oh how i wish i could dispel an RBT.

Shamfrit
14-05-2008, 13:04
I have no problem with this army list at all, my only problem is with Flamers, for their cost they are stupendously overpowered.

That being said, I ripped through a similar list with Skaven, and surprisingly, it wasn't due to SAD, it was due to the wonders of having nearly 300 troops in play and getting damned lucky with a Skitterleaped Brass Orb assassin.

(Aren't unfortunately timed rolls of 6's great?)

Malorian
14-05-2008, 13:50
I really don't care how much magic you have. They only have so many spells they can cast those those extra dice have to be used to increase the power of the spells already being cast.

More dice = more miscasts.

More magic = less models

I had a game against DE who was pushing magic to the extreme and by turn three he was pretty much wiped out...

Asfaloth
14-05-2008, 14:40
This army list, like all extreme lists, will performe murderously good against some armies, but very poor against others.

As one miscast could ruin the game for this list, I would like to battle it as it sounds very funny and tzeentchy.

Allcomer list would admittedly fare very badly, but with the possibility to plan they would fare very well.

I think my regular High Elf army with dragon princes and a Lord on Star Dragon with the item that cancels magic dammage on 2+ it would be too easy for the Elves.

fubukii
14-05-2008, 14:45
yea with 25 dice im def prediciting at least 1 miscast a turn which will probably cut his magic phase bery short. all the of tzeetch magic is short range, so just snipe the loc with a cannon or something once you can, get the horrors in combat put attaks on their toughness 3 hero mages and watch as the horrors crumble.

Bumble the Great
14-05-2008, 16:02
[QUOTE=Asfaloth;2610312]This army list, like all extreme lists, will performe murderously good against some armies, but very poor against others.

[QUOTE]


I agree compleatly with this statement and it is the price you pay for creating such a one sided army, I always try to create a army that will outdo the other in at least 2 of the 4 phases, this IMO is the best way to make a balanced force.

However even tho my WE would fair horribly against this force I would still give it a go. To me becoming a better general does not always go hand in hand with winning and as long as you give your opponent a good fight of it the luck can go either way, after all how many battles in history or fiction have been equal, someone always has the upper hand thats what makes it sweeter when you are the underdog and win! :D

Znail
14-05-2008, 16:34
This army list, like all extreme lists, will performe murderously good against some armies, but very poor against others.

This is actualy a rather weak army as while its very strong against some types of armies so are the list of armies its weak against very long.

Its good against:
Elite infantry.
Enemy magic.

Its weak against:
Warmachines (they outrange the short range Tzeentch spells).
Bow/Gun lines(they also outrange most Tzeentch spells).
Cavalry or other fast units.
Scouts/Skirmishers.
Cheap units.

Its also so specialised that it doesnt require an army of only the units that are strong against it, its enuff with a balanced army as just getting the horrors into melee or causing a few casualties will reduce the power alot. Its after all a very fragile army so its not difficult to hurt it as long as you have something else then only slow infantry in your army.

Havesome
14-05-2008, 19:12
A fast moving Lizardmen army with a Cube priest would almost assure that one magic phase does not happen and by the next turn it should be in their face.

Incoming
14-05-2008, 19:46
Doesnt power vortex eat up wounds from your characters?
Which means that the whole 25 powerdice nonsense is a bit daft.

Watch me elaborate.
Skaven 2k list
seer,3x warlock engineers with full upgrades, they spend every point of magical item allowance on warpstone tokens.
The seer is also riding a screaming bell.

Seer generates 4 dice on his own, plus 2 for the bell, plus 2 from the pool.
The warlocks each generate 2 themselves.
That's 14 so far.
Add in warpstone tokens..the seer starts with 4 and get's an extra 10.
14 extra power dice, so 28 so far.
The warlock's each have their initial 1 plus a further 5 each.
That's 18 more powerdice.
So you can have your 25 powerdice tzeentch army....see how it fares against my 46 powerdice skaven army that makes a total mockery of your magic phase.

You have 3 heralds each in a unit of 30 horrors presumably and a lord of change.
That's not a big army at all.
The lord of change will get shot to bits, then people will fight your horror units and slowly grind them down diminishing your ability to cast noticably.

Skaven 46 powerdice.
Tzeentch 25 powerdice.

Skaven > Tzeentch.

Cheese! Serious!?

CHEEESE!!! :D

Alpha_Wolf
14-05-2008, 20:27
@WusteGeist:

I don't tell other people how to play nor do I whine when I lose, stop jumping to conclusions.

Do you consider anything I said offensive since you called us out so...eloquently?

I wouldn't tell someone how to build their army but that doesn't mean I'd play all of them if I didn't have to (tournies).

The fact is this particular list is a "one trick pony". It has crazy magic damage and based on that this army will win or lose probably in the extremes. To me, this is a very one sided list and would be very boring to play.

If you enjoy playing this kind of army then be my guest.

/end


As far as general things to beat this army, fast movers seem to be the way to go, assassinate those characters and get in close combat where the horrors don't do much. Just don't lose combat due to static CR/outnumber and fear!

If you happen to play Helfs, hide everything behind hills/trees/out of range and watch the lord with dragon armour/loremaster cloak and his star dragon molest the entire demon army.

Edit: I'm afraid the other army I have, Tomb Kings, aren't as fortunate as the high elves. TKs do however have some of the best character assassins in the game imo, scorpions. With all those dispel dice the amount of magic I could get off would be almost nothing. So I'd have to make the one or two of my spells that do go off really count.

Teran
14-05-2008, 20:33
If someone hoards power dice like that against me, I just wont face them again. Simple as that. I play Warhammer, not Magichammer. 14 is probably the max I'd consider "reasonable".

Warhammer is a game, not something you show up for and then and then refuse to play because people are using THEIR army, and not YOUR idea of what their army should be.

25 power dice means there's a weakness somewhere, though I have not yet played against a list like this, it sounds kinda fun.

kaintxu
14-05-2008, 21:37
Just think about this:

Kairos = 625
blue scribes = 81
Herald,tzeentz flames,sorcery master= 165
Herald,tzeentz flames,sorcery master= 165
30 horrors/icon of sorcery = 387
30 horrors/standar of tzeentz = 397
15 horrors = 180

PD= 17

The army has less dices, only 17, but has more versatily since both heralds can know all spells of tzeentz or other lore, and kairos allready know all of them han gets other spells to use too. So thats means we can have up to three guys generating 1D3+1 which will give us 3D3 dices which its usually 6 more making it 23 plus the ones you get from the blue scribes plus the spell the blue scribes cast its pretty much a lot of dices.

Also you get kairos who has a +2 to spellcasting and 1 reroll per fase in case you get in trouble casting, i think it would be a better choice and more versatile.

What do you guys say?

Alpha_Wolf
14-05-2008, 21:57
Warhammer is a game, not something you show up for and then and then refuse to play because people are using THEIR army, and not YOUR idea of what their army should be.

25 power dice means there's a weakness somewhere, though I have not yet played against a list like this, it sounds kinda fun.

I definately agree that there are weaknesses to the list.

Outside of a tournament environment though, nobody has to play a game that they don't want to. Just as people have the right to make their own lists they also have the freedom to not play if they don't want to. It may sound kind of babyish in some cases I know but they have the right. Surely there are other people who will play you.

I think its a boring army list to be honest. It is designed to win by a single means only and failing that, it has no other option. There is no plan "B" for this army if it fails to magic the enemy to death.

shartmatau
14-05-2008, 23:28
I wouldn't mind playing it with my daemon army. I think its a boring list but not really that powerful. I save my dispel dice for the big stuff fateweaver might throw out but the heralds aren't really going to do that much and the horrors are short range. Its a lot a magic but its short range, nothing overly powerful. The exception would be fateweaver, which is what I would focus on dispelling and smashing him in combat where he is really horrible. Basically if you don't have other stuff in the army horror units will get ripped apart before they can do a lot of damage. Flamers would be troublesome but again are really weak and easy prey for fast chargers.

I played a tzentch mortals list with 13 powerdice whic was really powerful because it had longer ranged spells and I made everything mobile. Having a few chariots, all the casters on discs and a giant. It was good because I had the advantage in two phases, more importantly I had the advantage in the movement phase. Anyway, have fun and play it. Don't expect people to like it, some will and some wont. I'm pretty sure you will find that varying some of your units will be better and more enjoyable. Focusing on magic means you are playing the odds game and just like vegas eventually you lose.

kaintxu
14-05-2008, 23:48
well with blue scribes, and heralds knowing all spells from a lore, dont be so sure they wont perform that well

Dranthar
15-05-2008, 02:05
well with blue scribes, and heralds knowing all spells from a lore, dont be so sure they wont perform that well

Correct me if I'm wrong here (I don't have the book), but isn't the main advantage of bluescribes is that they get a PD for every successfully cast enemy spell? With 13 dispel dice, I don't see that coming into effect very often.

CHOOBER SNIPES
15-05-2008, 02:10
I am with the people who would not enjoy playing against this list. I would probably still play against it, but I don't understand why anyone wants to use that type of army. It seems to me as though the armies chosen will decide the fate of the game, not the actual tactics and playing that goes on in the game. Kind of like rock, paper, scissors, you either end up playing an army you win against or one you lose against. As others have said, i think this list will do very well against some armies and poorly against others, i just dont think that you should predetermine who will win just by the lists picked before the battle.

xragg
15-05-2008, 14:31
Still playtesting my GT list that has no wizards and still dont see this list that threatening. Every unit has at least MR1 and I have 6DD, but maybe my list is just equally cheesey. Any army with only 3 units just isnt that versitile. Cant Tzeentch still make horrors? Why not go that route and not start with so many horrors, but a couple more units of ... (not sure what since I only glanced at the demon book weeks ago).

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-05-2008, 16:12
Tzeentch can't "make Horrors" except with the worst spell in the new book, Tzeentch's Firestorm.

I cannot wait till July and the Daemon FAQ and hope/pray they errata it to make it semi-useful. ;)

Kerill
15-05-2008, 16:22
Tzeentch player lines up his 25 power dice, his herald is going to cast flickering fire with 2 dice, the room hushes with anticipation as the onlookers prepare to watch the coming Tzeentch Barbecue. The dice roll, its 2 1s, roll on the miscast table, magic phase ends immediately. The horrors produce little collective turds of blue energy staring at the face of the enemy army whilst trying to hide thier oversized hands and casty fingers behind their backs so the enemy knights will pick on someone else instead.

Znail
15-05-2008, 16:52
Tzeentch can't "make Horrors" except with the worst spell in the new book, Tzeentch's Firestorm.

I cannot wait till July and the Daemon FAQ and hope/pray they errata it to make it semi-useful. ;)
That would be very shocking. GW is notorious for never fixing anything bad in FAQs. If something is too good then it may have a very small chance to get changed, but never something poor. I think GW is firm believers in the "Ostritch model".

sulla
15-05-2008, 21:47
Also you get kairos who has a +2 to spellcasting and 1 reroll per fase in case you get in trouble casting, i think it would be a better choice and more versatile.

What do you guys say?

Kairos is also dreadfully bad in cc. I think I'd prefer a regular LoC...

Havock
15-05-2008, 21:55
Kairos is Teclis' best buddies.
They are the only 'disabled' people in this game, seeing as eltharion isn't blind anymore, nor suffers from PTSD.

Znail
15-05-2008, 22:36
Kairos is decent in a mixed army, but in a pure Tzeentch force so do you need any close combat punch you can get to keep the wolves away!

decker_cky
15-05-2008, 22:40
Why? He can throw out pit of shade, bolt of change and other gamebreaking spells whenever you want. And he can avoid combat easily.

Znail
15-05-2008, 22:55
Sure he can avoid combat, but the rest of your army cant. A normal greater daemon can threaten some enemies that would otherwise eat your fragile horrors. Its not the best melee unit, but its better then Kairos who cant chew his own food.

Kairos is alot better supporting an army that has unit from the other gods that are capable melee units. Then it doesnt hurt as much that he is a dedicated caster.

sing Sang a song
15-05-2008, 23:16
.., wow that is what i wanna call a gambling list..., seriously 25 dices for each magic phase.., can you even use all of them? and if you can i dont even wanna think about chance of getting miscast! Also i dont think there is any fun of playing with that list.

Lord Brrrp
16-05-2008, 00:33
Here is my thought on an ALL magic Tzeentch army. It is ALL magic damage and nothing else and no other real defense. I have no problem facing a one sided army. Shoot it, get into combat quickly and whatever remains to get into combat will win, etc.

OldMagik
16-05-2008, 00:53
i see that and its what a 2k army? ok ill take 3 skink priests filled with dispel scrolls and a saurus scar-vet and an army of something like 300 skinks . . . if they can actually kill enough they might get some units to panic but if they don't nothing will surive the around 600 poisonous blowpipe shots.

Yionel
16-05-2008, 04:08
World Dragon Banner...Muahahha you cant hit me :p

Lijacote
16-05-2008, 06:39
Eh, that list isn't all that powerful in the end. Just because it can do magic really, really well does not mean it's over-poweringly stupidly strong. Screens will eliminate most damage to your army discounting the Lord of Change and his feathery wings of line of sight enabling... but you know what works against a Greater Daemon? A cannon. Go for a cannon, go for poisoned attacks. Turn 2, with cavalry, you'll be killing horrors left and right due to combat resolution if nothing else, provided you had the sense to flank the horrors. They're essentially a phalanx when they're 30 strong and armed with a Herald.

The only spell you really, really have to worry about if the Tzeentchian player gets the opportunity to do it against a useful unit is the Bolt of Change. Flickering Fire is pretty random (though more damaging than the old Red Fire) and I don't know any Tzeentch players who would cast the Firestorm. I might make the exception if I faced massive amounts of cavalry (march blocking made easier)

Horrors are level 3 wizards at 30-strong but they'll lose a level at 25 models. Focus your shooting on one unit until it loses a level... and with that level, the Bolt of Change. This list is very, very, very one-sided, even for monogod. If nothing else works, play High Elves and go for the ridiculous Dragon Princes of doom (immune to flaming attacks and magic with the right banner)

On a side-note, why is everyone so aflame with immortal fury about heavy magic or shooting? It's no different from heavy infantry, asides from the range. Is that why you cry? No offense.

ZigZagMan
17-05-2008, 07:17
Have you seen the Tzeentch spell list? stay over 18" away and those magic missles will never touch you (of course take their movement into account)

Or just bring on 1 good unit with magic resistance 2 or 3

Fulgrim's-Chosen
17-05-2008, 12:57
If you are, as most armies are, a close-combat force (most -not all, of course)...you will HAVE to close range at some point. The idea of "just stay 18+ inches away the whole game !" - is not really realistic or feasible and the Daemons can always advance and still fire their Spells without penalty, so effective range for Flickering Fire and Bolt of Change is 18-range + up-to-8-inches movement = 26 inches.

(Horrors we are talking about here, of course !)

Conotor
17-05-2008, 19:05
Diadem of power: Acts as a dispel scroll. Roll a d6. On a 4+, the magic phase ends.

Also, priests can be given sacred spawning of the old ones.

Conotor
17-05-2008, 19:07
Maybe he plays with others who like to have fun and aren't powergamers?

I disagree. Part of the fun of this game is meeting lists that look "cheesy" to you, and then finding ways to rip them apart.

sulla
18-05-2008, 23:03
Kairos is also dreadfully bad in cc. I think I'd prefer a regular LoC...

Actually, after using a LoC on the weekend, I've changed my mind. There were plenty of times I could've charged my LoC into combat but doing so would've neutered his magic. Better off to stay out of combat altogether (leave that to those foolish heralds from other powers you have manipulated into your army). Plus, with Kairos you always have the right spell for the job.

EndlessBug
19-05-2008, 00:08
specific items aren't a valid reason not to take this list as most of the time you will not encounter them (save for the ever increasing MR armies are getting). In either case the list isn't that great, VERY prone to misscasts, an early one of which will destroy your magic phase, now if that happened in 1st/2nd turn then you've already lost.

On the other hand it is what it is a pure Tzeentch list which does what it does well. However once you're in combat you're screwed as they only need to dispel the single cast into combat spell Tzeentch has.

In conclusion, it does what it does well but it really isn't that powerful without a LOT of luck.

p.s. the Skaven idea was terrible, a roll of a 1 on any of those dice and you misscast, not really a valid arguement, also add in the fact that the engineers only have one spell also.

Loopstah
19-05-2008, 07:31
Diadem of power: Acts as a dispel scroll. Roll a d6. On a 4+, the magic phase ends.


You mean the Cube of Darkness.


On a similar note Spelleater Runes would be a good pick in a dwarf army and you could use quite a few in 2250. You'd also lose out on the free PD as the dwarfs wouldn't be casting.

crazywhiteboydance
19-05-2008, 13:11
Okay I play a pure tzeentch daemon sometimes & even I find the prospect of 25 PD enough to make me want go and scrub myself clean for thinking about it.

That said I wouldn't tell someone to take a hike & not bother playing them because of it. For me I get a lot of fun from playing against an army I know I'll have a hard time against. A good example was taking an elite daemon army against a skaven army that I knew outnumbered me 7:1. The fun came from having to use my brain & improvise tactics on the spot.

Give em a go you'll either win or you wont. The world will continue & you'll know that you can either defeat such an opponent or you'll be able to figure out how to from having played the game. Just have fun.

redrum
19-05-2008, 21:20
Or just bring on 1 good unit with magic resistance 2 or 3

I think I'd have to take Louen Leoncoeur in my Bret list for this. MR = #of power dice used to cast the spell. Go ahead throw five or six dice :)

Also two damsels in units of Grail Knights to give them MR1 and I think I could have some fun. I know it's a cheesy list but it's made to counter a cheesy list :)

Gov
20-05-2008, 01:27
I would use a huge unit of frenzy slaves.

His magic phase. slaves die...
my magic phase, I kill slaves for the fun of it.
by the end of the game he has kill 400 points.....


Not very scary to deal with

Havock
20-05-2008, 12:10
So this is a paper, and people are all surprised that there are plenty of scissors around?

Frankly, this is relying on magic a bit too much. You don't need to dispel that much, he'll probably roll a miscast every turn.
A bit less magic, a bit more CC (slaaneshi seekers for example) makes the list far more viable.

kroq'gar
20-05-2008, 12:24
Even though i had terrible rolling... try the lizardman shield of the mirror-pond+mark of the old ones. The notion of bouncing a top lvl spell back at a greater deamon is to funny to pass up.