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View Full Version : Miasma of Pestilence and MAX Kills Possible Question



Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 12:47
Hello everyone.

A situation came up in a previous battle and I wanted to ask the input of the wise Warseer rules-folks on it.


SITUATION: A Herald of Nurgle on Palanquin (50-mm base) has cast Miasma of Pestilence on itself in its Magic Phase. It is in combat (having charged) with a unit of enemy Grave Guard in the Flank.

It is in a unit of 6-wide Plaguebearers so the formation for the front-line of the Daemons is:

X= Plaguebearer, H= Herald on Palanquin


XXHHXX
XXHHXX
XXXXXX




Now...at the start of the combat round, the Herald's unit is in base-to-base contact with 4 Grave Guards. The Herald himself is in base-to-base contact with 4 of those Guards as shown here:


X = Plaguebearer, H= Herald on Palanquin, O = Grave Guards


X
XOOOOO
HOOOOO
HOOOOO
XOOOOO
X

----------------------

Now...the Herald goes to make his attacks...and with the Miasma in effect, the WS/STR/Toughness/INIT/ and Number of Attacks for the enemy Grave Guards are all reduced to "1". So the Herald has a great opportunity to cause some big carnage....or does he ?


I was ready to make my attacks, which would have hit on 3+ and Wounded on 2+ given the Miasma's effect...but my opponent disagreed.

He claimed that while those numbers for to-hit and to-wound were accurate, the MOST models I could POSSIBLY get to kill with those enhanced rolls were the original 4 I was in base-to-base contact with.

Thus, even though the Herald has 3 Attacks and his Palanquin a further 6....he was saying the MOST models I would be able to attack with them being WS-1, STR-1, TOUGH-1, etc. were the original 4 the Herald was in contact with when the combat began.


I don't think we played that right though. Under normal circumstances, when you kill a model, the rules say that remaining models are assumed to charge up and fill the holes, thus allowing you to kill more models than are in the front-rank of a unit, with any units given attacks.

Using this "logic"/wording ...I felt that the additional Grave Guards who were "charging up to fill the holes" caused by their friends being cut down would ALSO become affected by the Herald's Miasma spell since they would, at that time, be in contact with the Herald's base and thus subject to the spell, as well as still being valid casualty targets for the rest of the Herald's attacks.

----------


What do you guys think ? Can a Herald in the situation I showed above, with Miasma active....get to kill MORE enemy models at the favorable Miasma-reduced-stats than JUST the few he "starts" in base-to-base contact with at the beginning of the combat round ?


* this is also for the Plaguebearers he is with that are in contact with some of those same enemy models which are ALSO in contact with the Herald and thus would get their stats reduced - Basically the total POSSIBLE attacks from that unit of Plaguebearers + Herald's front-rank was 3 for the Herald, plus 6 for the Palanquin, plus 4 for the standard Plaguebearers.

A total of 13 attacks then. My overall point was...assuming PERFECT rolls by me...I should be able to kill UP-TO 13 enemy Grave Guards, rolling with them as WS-1, STR-1, TOUGH-1, INIT-1, Attacks-1 ....because of the Miasma affecting them in base-to-base at the start of the combat....and because you are normally able to kill more models than are initially touching you, as the game assumes the rest move up to take the place of the fallen...and in doing so (in this case) they would keep coming in contact with the Heralds' big base and thus be afflicted by Miasma of Pestilence the same as the ones that were "initially" in B2B with the Herald *

KharnTheBetrayer01
14-05-2008, 13:33
Is the Miasma of Pestilence cast on the user, or on the troops you fight against?

If the Miasma of Pestilence is something that surrounds the caster then I would imagine its effects last till the next round of combat. However if you cast it on the troops (in the example given the Grave Guard) then once the models you "Miasma'd" are dead there will be no further penalties to statlines.

Look at it like this. A miasma is a lingering thing. If it were a brief spell it would be called burst of pestilence, or Boil Asplode, or some such thing.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-05-2008, 13:43
It is cast on the "model" itself - IE the Herald in this case.

The effect lasts from the time you cast it until your NEXT Magic Phase begins again.

It affects all enemy models in base-to-base with your casting Daemon (the Herald in this case).

-----

Hope that clarification helps. Now...any ideas on how we should play it ?

mav1971
14-05-2008, 14:04
You were played it correct. Your friend just didn't want to lose his Grave Guard. I guarantee if he had that spell he wouldn't say it only affected the front rank.

BloodiedSword
14-05-2008, 16:44
I will cautiously agree with your bolded part, though I have some vague worries in my mind.

In particular I'm worried about what should happen had that unit been, say, HE Spearelves instead of Grave Guard.

In that case the Spearelves strike first, and as only the 4 in base contact with the Palanquin suffer the Miasma penalty, that means the 2 ranks behind may attack the Herald with no penalty.

However, when it comes to your turn to strike, your Herald is treating all his opponents as WS1, despite the fact that they attacked at WS4.

Now, I'm not sure this is actually a problem - there are other examples where models' combat stats may change in the middle of a round of combat (particularly Settra), so I think it's all ok.

I still think you're right, it's just some food for thought though.

wizuriel
14-05-2008, 16:50
I will cautiously agree with your bolded part, though I have some vague worries in my mind.

In particular I'm worried about what should happen had that unit been, say, HE Spearelves instead of Grave Guard.

In that case the Spearelves strike first, and as only the 4 in base contact with the Palanquin suffer the Miasma penalty, that means the 2 ranks behind may attack the Herald with no penalty.

However, when it comes to your turn to strike, your Herald is treating all his opponents as WS1, despite the fact that they attacked at WS4.

Now, I'm not sure this is actually a problem - there are other examples where models' combat stats may change in the middle of a round of combat (particularly Settra), so I think it's all ok.

I still think you're right, it's just some food for thought though.

that kinda makes logical sense though. originally the 2nd and 3rd rank are standing back from the demon so the miasma wouldn't affect them (since they are just thrusting their spear over the head/shoulder of their allies).

however when the demon attacks the high elves showing true courage and no brains rush forward to fight the demon instead of hanging back and using their supior reach In other words the miasma affects them as they boldy take the place of their fallen kin in front of the demon. So in the immortal words of dark helmet "evil will always triumph, cause good is dumb"

Nurgling Chieftain
14-05-2008, 17:41
So, let me get this straight: Your opponent is claiming that the heralds CLOSE COMBAT attacks have to be made against models NOT in base contact?

...Yeah, whatever.

Anyway, here's the RaW, as I understand it: Those four affected models don't actually die. You hit them at their modified stats, and cause casualties, but those casualties come from the rear of the unit, as always. (Then, if the grave guard haven't attacked yet, they get fewer attacks back.)

BloodiedSword
14-05-2008, 17:53
Technically models are removed from the fighting rank but models step up to fill the gaps "immediately". These models may not attack (unless they had spears or pikes), but may still be attacked.

In addition, as soon as they step up, they will be in base contact with the Herald and thus subject to Miasma. The fact that this was already assumed beforehand (i.e., rolling all the Herald's attacks against WS1, T1) does not stop the fact that they do suffer from it.

Well, I've no idea if that makes sense to anyone other than me but I think I'm happy with this now.

Festus
14-05-2008, 17:56
In particular I'm worried about what should happen had that unit been, say, HE Spearelves instead of Grave Guard.

In that case the Spearelves strike first, and as only the 4 in base contact with the Palanquin suffer the Miasma penalty, that means the 2 ranks behind may attack the Herald with no penalty.

However, when it comes to your turn to strike, your Herald is treating all his opponents as WS1, despite the fact that they attacked at WS4.
Correct

Festus

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-05-2008, 20:05
Right...the thing was...I was saying that the Herald with his max of 9 Attacks (3 from him and 6 from his Palanquin) should be able to kill a MAX of 9 enemy models...with my rolls against them (From the Herald or those Plaguebearers in base to base with any of them that are also in B2B with the Herald who has the Miasma Spell active on himself) .....being with them as WS-1, STR-1, TOUGH-1, INIT-1, ATTACKS-1...per the spell effect.


My opponent was saying that I should ONLY get those rolls against the degraded statlines from the ORIGINAL 4 models that were in contact with my 50-mm Palanquin base at the start of the combat...and that essentially I'd have to roll 1-dice at a time to see if I killed those first 4 with the degraded stats...then for the remaining rolls...if I still had dice left...I would be rolling against "fresh troopers" who would NOT be affected by the Miasma, and would thus have their normal WS-3, STR-4, TOUGH-4, etc. etc.


-------------

You guys are saying I was right, originally, though ? My claim was that the book says as you kill models from the front, models from the rear ranks step up and take their place...when they DO "step up" they "step into" base-to-base with the Herald, and since his spell lasts until the start of the NEXT Magic Phase, once its been cast, it is STILL "in effect" when they do so.

As they are then in B2B with my Herald...they are (should be) affected by the spell and would have THEIR stats reduced too.


Thoughts ? Festus/T10/Atrahasis/Draich ?

* Perhaps you guys of the Direwolf Council could send this to GW too...as I am sure some players will try to argue as my opponent has done, about how you resolve the spell effects, and it would be nice to have a formalized GW statement on it *

Gazak Blacktoof
16-05-2008, 14:46
Correct any model that steps up automatically receives a stats reduction.

All models in contact have their stats reduced. Any model that can attack one of those models will probably choose to do so and receive the benefits. So its not just the herald who benefits from the reduced stats either.


XBBBBX
PPHHPP

X-unaffected models
B-affected models
P-plague bearers that can attack models B
H-herald.


Fighting against a 25mm based unit the models X and any behind them or behind models B will not be affected by the miasma except when they step in to replace casualties.

Any model occupying spaces B will count as being in base contact with the herald and will have reduced stats.

Plague bearers P will be able to attack affected models B who are in contact with the herald H. Any models further to the flanks than plague bearers P will be unable to contact an affected model and so must attack models without stat reductions.

Remember that a unit will stay centred as you attack it and casualties are removed from the flanks toward the centre after the bank ranks are dead. It is possible that an entire unit can be affected as its numbers are depleted if the herlad is placed as shown in the diagram.