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vilo
14-05-2008, 20:28
The Gem Of Blood allows the bearer to rebound the first wound suffered in close combat to his attacker before working out the effects of killing blow etc.

Now does this rebounded attack have the characteristics of the wound done to the vampire i.e. will it do multiple wounds. killing blow etc.

I am split either was as for a cheap item it would be very dirty but it does say that THE wound is rebounded, which would imply that its the same wound the vampire would have suffered.

sorry if this has already come up, couldn't find it in any previous posts.

cheers

theunwantedbeing
14-05-2008, 20:33
Only the wound is rebounded, not the effects of the wound.
So no killing blow or multiple wounds etc.

Arnizipal
14-05-2008, 20:42
Only the wound is rebounded, not the effects of the wound.
So no killing blow or multiple wounds etc.
That's pure personal preference though, isn't it?

The description of the item leaves this quite open to interpretation.
It says THE wound is rebounded, impying the enemy suffers the same wound that was inflicted on your character (with all bells and whistles like killing blow or multi wound).

Malorian
14-05-2008, 20:46
As much as I would like it to rebound the same kind of wound, I think that it's a bit unrealistic as it's already a great item for it's price.

vilo
14-05-2008, 21:00
Thats' what i would have thought as well but we only have to look at dragon armor to see gw's ideas on points cost and weird rules.

I just can't see any clear way of working this out.

Spirit
14-05-2008, 21:15
You know i was pondering the very question a few hours ago... Scary that.

I would say yes it does, as my personal viewpoint.

EvC
14-05-2008, 21:51
Here's a subquestion for you: if a Vampire with Red Fury wounds someone with the Gem of Blood, and the wound is then reflected on the Vampire. Does the Vampire get the extra attack? It has caused a wound? Or what if the bearer rolls a 1, then should the Vampire get 2 more attacks..?

vilo
14-05-2008, 21:54
Here's a subquestion for you: if a Vampire with Red Fury wounds someone with the Gem of Blood, and the wound is then reflected on the Vampire. Does the Vampire get the extra attack? It has caused a wound? Or what if the bearer rolls a 1, then should the Vampire get 2 more attacks..?

No because it says that the wound is saved, then rebounded. which probably answers the original question.

BloodiedSword
14-05-2008, 22:49
I think people are reading too much into the whole "wound is rebounded" thing.

IMO the "rebounded" is just a descriptive word to make it clear what's going on, and under the covers it's actually "Ignore the first wound suffered in close combat. In addition, the attacker that caused that wound suffers a wound with no armour save" or whatever the wording is.

Seeing as there's nothing in the BRB about what "rebounding" wounds or attacks means, I say just treat that word as flavour text.

Spirit
15-05-2008, 01:03
No because it says that the wound is saved, then rebounded. which probably answers the original question.

Agreed, red fury is for every unsaved wound, gem specifically says it saves AND rebounds the wound.

kroq'gar
15-05-2008, 03:02
The word 'rebound' is used to add some imagery to the item.

In game terms the wound is saved, and a new wound is inflicted on the attacker.

Spirit
15-05-2008, 14:56
I think people are reading too much into the whole "wound is rebounded" thing.

IMO the "rebounded" is just a descriptive word to make it clear what's going on, and under the covers it's actually "Ignore the first wound suffered in close combat. In addition, the attacker that caused that wound suffers a wound with no armour save" or whatever the wording is.

Seeing as there's nothing in the BRB about what "rebounding" wounds or attacks means, I say just treat that word as flavour text.

By this reasoning, there is nothing in the BRB about sacrificing wounds, yet the crimson gem of Lahmia allows you to "sacrifice a wound". By your reasoning the item becomes useless, as sacrifice is now just flavour text.

I say that all effects of the wound are rebounded, i don't discount it as flavour text because i cant pick and choose what is flavour text and what is not.


The word 'rebound' is used to add some imagery to the item.

In game terms the wound is saved, and a new wound is inflicted on the attacker.


Same to this argument, in game terms, the wound is rebounded, it is not text for the imagination, that is above the ruling, not in the rules section for the item. Else you must take EVERY other word not described in the rulebook as flavour. You cannot just pick and choose.

explorator
15-05-2008, 15:02
By this reasoning, there is nothing in the BRB about sacrificing wounds, yet the crimson gem of Lahmia allows you to "sacrifice a wound". By your reasoning the item becomes useless, as sacrifice is now just flavour text.

I say that all effects of the wound are rebounded, i don't discount it as flavour text because i cant pick and choose what is flavour text and what is not.

According to the new FAQ; Gem of Blood-[I]if[I] the wound is rebounded, the victim only suffers a single wound, with no other consequences (killing blow etc.).

Crimson Gem of Lahmia-No save of any kind against wounds caused by this item.

Spirit
15-05-2008, 15:06
Which official FAQ is this?

BloodiedSword
15-05-2008, 15:34
Same to this argument, in game terms, the wound is rebounded, it is not text for the imagination, that is above the ruling, not in the rules section for the item. Else you must take EVERY other word not described in the rulebook as flavour. You cannot just pick and choose.

I am suggesting that you pick and choose words to regard as "flavour text" in order to make the rules more sensible (and make more sense).

To ignore the "sacrifice a wound" as flavour text would be to make the rule less sensible, so there is no reason to do it.

IMO there just isn't a RAW interpretation that will stand up to all questioning in this situation, which is why I am suggesting the above.

After all, arguing that rebounding a KB "wound" causes a KB wound actually makes less sense than just turning it into an ordinary wound. Check BRB:


If a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound when rolling to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent

There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the Killing Blow is a property of the wound, and everything to suggest that it only depends on the model making the attack.

In fact, there is nothing to even suggest that a wound is caused as normal, or if this "automatic slaying" is in addition to or instead of the normal wound! EDIT: Note that the next sentence clarifies that the "automatic slaying" is itself a wound.

Furthermore, you will note that he automatically slays "his opponent", not the model suffering the wound (though we could argue the semantics of this forever most likely), so there is no reason to suggest that he would KB himself if the wound were reflected.

Basically the whole thing is a ludicrous mess and if you try to play by RAW, you will hit a contradiction and you will fail. The only way is to try to find the most sensible non-RAW solution, using the MIR.

EDIT: Check above

Mercules
15-05-2008, 15:34
Which official FAQ is this?

The official kind on the GW website.

Vampire FAQ (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/download.htm?/news/errata/assets/wh/vampirecounts.pdf)

BloodiedSword
15-05-2008, 15:39
Good spot Mercules.. I have to admit I'm very relieved they FAQ'd that :)

Mercules
15-05-2008, 15:50
Good spot Mercules.. I have to admit I'm very relieved they FAQ'd that :)

Don't give me credit... I had seen the thread saying they were up, read through them myself... and then like explorator noticed this very question was answered in the FAQ.:D

Spirit
15-05-2008, 21:31
Well, i stand corrected rules wise, but i still stand that both interpretations were valid (untill it was FAQ'd obviously)

However i still agree with the new ruling. And some of the other changes are amazing, my vamp army wont likely be leaving home without the helm of command and the accursed armour!