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Mozzamanx
15-05-2008, 14:47
G'day chaps,

It seems that the old tactica has been dead for about 8 months, so lets create another!

To start off with, what do you prefer game-wise: Goblins or Night Goblins?

I don't think the Night Goblins are worth it unless you go full out with nets and Fanatics, since Light Armour and +1 Leadership on the normal ones is so much better than +1 Initiative.

On War Machines, which is usually a better pick? A big ole Rock Lobba, or the slightly more dependable Doom Diver?

Let your sneakiness run riot!

EDIT: woo, post 300!

valdrog
15-05-2008, 15:41
I always take Night Goblins, their ability to take fanatics is HUGE, goblins arent meant to survive anyways, they are just there to deliver fanatics :)

With the recent increase of large creatures ( high elf dragons, greater demons-new codexes ) i have started to switch to Spear chukkas, i never used to take them because most of the time you need 6s to hit and thats just plain horrible. I like rock lobbas they are just deadly when dealing with blocks of units.

Giants are one of my favorite choices and i take 2 in any 2000 point game, this guys can hold a flank on their own and with stubborn and ld 10, they can stay in a fight for a Long time.

Black orcs are tough, but they are expensive and normally get shot to hell before getting anywhere, i never take them, but then, thats just my preference, i play mainly an all NG army.

Urgat
15-05-2008, 15:50
Well I like my common goblins with shield and hand weapon. Sure, they're there to die, but it's even better if they don't die after all :p
One of my favourite units remains my four river trolls though. They're nasty, they can take on anything, really.-1 to hit is an annoyance for anybody, you combine that with the regen, and that makes them ubbertough. They're the bane of heavy cavalry because of their nasty vomit, and can take on rank and file units with their 3 attacks each. Sure, they need some babysitting, but heck, I know nobody who has not 1) underestimated them (lol, you don't take giants? you n00b) 2) cried after charging them with their silly chosen knights ("OMG WTF?!?!!1one you cheat").
River trolls for the win.
Shame the stone trolls ain't as good (5+ scaly skin? How useless is that? Ok, MR2 can come in handy), they do look better. regular trolls really have no use though, I don't waste points in cheap units when they're rare choices.

invinciblebug
15-05-2008, 16:09
On the goblin matter I preffer night goblins cause of the shields. They make a big difference in CC. Also NG have acces to nets and fanatics. sure +1 Ld can be handy but then I find any goblin run away if forced to take Ld tests unless I have a caracter in wich case their own LD doesnt matter. The only reason I ever take normal goblins for is LA+shield+HW combo wich NGs cant take.

On the warmachine matter I preffer rock lobbas over doom divers cause doom divers tend to not do very much damage IMHO.
Spear chukkas are also usefull. I always take one rock lobba and two spear chukkas in 2000pts games.

I also quite like using single vanilla trolls as ''detachments'' to my bigger units. I usualy dont take giants, dont like doom divers and despise pump wagons so I can just as well fill all my Rare slots with single units of trolls. They cant cause panic and are very cheap. Perfect for redirecting and that kind of stuff.

lparigi34
15-05-2008, 16:28
Well, as valdrod mention, the current spree of large terror causing models may be a problem for all-gobbo armies.

I,ve seen half my army running sprung from a single terror check. I think that the old trick of having Gobbos in between Orc units is pretty healthfull.

Also I always bet for the higher Ld of the Black Orc, either Warboss or Boss, depending on the points played. I do take Grimgor a lot too.

So, aso for Core Units, I tend to mix Orcs and NGs. I almost naver take normal gobbos. If I want support, I use Wolves, great and cheap fast cav.

Specials, my usual headache, as I always want more... Chariots, Boar Boyz, Black Orcs and Squigs, both in Herd or Jumpers and the Stone Thrower and Chuckas... that is already 7, more than allowed and I have not repeated a single one yet... snif snif... I like them all.

As for the Rares, Troll are so unreliable IMO. But I once paired 4 of them (Stone Trolls) with a high Ld mounted boss (Gorbad is Ld 10) and it was pretty fun.

One giant is my usual and serious choice. Maybe even two for competitive playing.

The other one is usually the Doom Diver, since I cannot afford to use tho special slots for Throwers

anuburos
15-05-2008, 16:56
I'm not much of a gobbo in large blocks. I like my gobbos for fast cav where they really excell. Sure they might not be as good as other armies fast cav, but they are troop choices and dead cheap! Wolfriders are better than spider riders IMO cuz they're soo much faster!

For war machines, I usually run 1 rock lobba and 2 spear chukkas, but I think I'm gonna switch to 4 spear chukkas real soon in 2000pts. I tried 2 rock lobbas in 2000pts once and they pretty much did nothing. I finally got a direct hit on a lord on a dragon, but rolled a 1 to wound!

I feel giants die way too easy. I'd take 2 but there expensive points wise and your opponent usually looks at you funny, but then again we play O&G, one of the most under powered armies in Warhammer.

My Trolls have never let me down so far. I've only taken a block of 4 regular trolls since they are cheap and still effective. I usually start a shaman with them if I can't baby sit them near my general. Once they are close to the middle of the board, I just let them run wild. They work wonders for screwin up your opponent's plans and are very resilient for 160pts. I tar pitted and killed almost every unit possible with my trolls except a unit of 5 Khorne minotaurs. They still killed 2 of them though.

Once they took a a charge from a double ranked block of ogre bulls with a tooled up butcher in there. Ended up with one wound and killed 2 ogres in return to make them run. I had to pursue, but didn't catch them. Eventually they stupidly wandered into the unit again, beat them, caught them, and then wandered off the table....stupid trolls!

Mozzamanx
16-05-2008, 07:24
What are your views on Savage Orcs? Big Uns with 2 weapons will dish out 3 Str 5 hits each, at WS 4!

However, they also cost alot like that and have a 6+ ward, so Im a bit hesitant to take them.

Urgat
16-05-2008, 09:15
Dunno, never tried them on foot. I can just say that the mounted version deals an insane amount of damage, and since your army can include many many wolf riders, frenzy ain't much of a problem either.

Avian
16-05-2008, 14:15
With Savage Orcs I don't think you really need to make them Big 'Uns. Twelve of them with two choppas and full command are nasty enough as it is and only cost 150 pts. :D

lparigi34
16-05-2008, 20:35
Dunno, never tried them on foot. I can just say that the mounted version deals an insane amount of damage, and since your army can include many many wolf riders, frenzy ain't much of a problem either.

Frenzied Boars on the Charge!!!

Lovely!

Mozzamanx
20-05-2008, 06:02
4 str 5 attacks on the charge? Math-hammer time here...

1.33 hits from the riders, into 1.1 wounds.
1 hit from the boar, means another 0.83333 wounds.

Thats about 2 kills each! A small unit of 5 with a banner, means 11 combat resolution, so they can cheerfully charge fully ranked infantry and obliterate them :evilgrin:

stampy
20-05-2008, 06:27
Its more a case of, will they actually get to that unit of infantry in one piece. Next to no armour and only a 6+ ward save, they will get shot/magiced to death by opponents as quickly as possible

valdrog
20-05-2008, 12:00
Its more a case of, will they actually get to that unit of infantry in one piece. Next to no armour and only a 6+ ward save, they will get shot/magiced to death by opponents as quickly as possible

Hence why i never take them, nor black orcs, 1 round of shooting/magic can totally destroy them, and they are expensive. I like to spread my threat accross the army, not make one "kill all, engine of destruction" unit, since i know when you make them nasty, they also become very expensive. The one unit that i always bring that has a big target painted on them are my Giants, but with 6 wounds and march 12 and by bringing 2 of them, they are normally in combat by turn 2.

For calv i take regular boar boys, run them with the giants just in case the giant gets bogged down in combat, smash the flank with the boarboys. Units of wolf riders, i take 2 of 6 each, this way they can negate ranks when they charge a unit on the flank, and they can absorb one casualty before coming innefective, with spears, musc and boss, they are only 96 points.

Chaos Mortal
20-05-2008, 12:57
savage boar boys and just take loadsa wolf riders =) works a treat every time.

Malice&Mizery
20-05-2008, 13:28
Are Black Orcs really worth taking? I recently bought 20 of them just for the models xD but tactically are they viable?

lparigi34
20-05-2008, 13:59
...Units of wolf riders, i take 2 of 6 each, this way they can negate ranks when they charge a unit on the flank, and they can absorb one casualty before coming innefective, with spears, musc and boss, they are only 96 points.

Actually can absorb three :). Wolf riders are US2 a piece, so three of them still negates R&F and get flank-rear bonuses.

crackbabytoo
20-05-2008, 15:52
I typically take a single troll and station him between the General and the BSB. I either charge a warmachine with em or I use him to protect the flank. He usually sicks around for a while and that gives my general time to deal with what is in front of him.

Black Orcs have worked pretty well for me. I typcally give them the added shield and put either my BSB or some other Black Orc Hero to give em a bit more of a bite to the unit. Yes they tend to get shot at but that just means that other units are not and what remains usualy is enough to hold its' own in combat.

I use a giant,at least 2 units of NG with 2 fanatics, and I find that wolf riders do a good job at killing warmachines, drawing fire and helping me deny portions of my foe's army thier abilty to march move. I use at least 3 units of wolf riders armed with spears.

Chadjabdoul
20-05-2008, 23:28
Finally, some recognition on how great river trolls are (my favorite rare choice, doom diver a close second).
I also really like my svg orcs on foot. I got the old models so I give them shields instead of two choppas (unit of 20). They (along with the river trolls) have often surprised me and my opponents.
With black orcs, I haven't been as lucky.
I know not many like special characters but I feel Skarsnik is worth mentioning. Not so much for his tricksy traps but for the fact that he can turn a unit of n.goblins into one that actually wins battles.

woytek
21-05-2008, 08:00
Everybody is always bashing the savage orc boar boyz (big'uns)! They rock since they deal a ******** of S5 attacks, enought to break most things head on.

When they get shot at, no problem! They have a 4+ save and 6+ ward while being ItP. This means they never panic from shooting! I usually take 6 of them, costing me 230 points or so. They really do great in every game, usually best unit in the army.

lasergreger
21-05-2008, 08:13
Im surprised there isn't more pro-spear chukka talk here, 2for1-choice and at 35 points each, even with BS 3 there is a big chance they will take back their points.
The only negative bit about them, is the usuall thing, it's a special choice, and we all know those slots are never enough for all you want!

Grinloc
21-05-2008, 10:12
Everybody is always bashing the savage orc boar boyz (big'uns)! They rock since they deal a ******** of S5 attacks, enought to break most things head on.

When they get shot at, no problem! They have a 4+ save and 6+ ward while being ItP. This means they never panic from shooting! I usually take 6 of them, costing me 230 points or so. They really do great in every game, usually best unit in the army.

It's not so much about being ItP. It's more about getting decimated. When they get shot down to 3 models they lose plenty of punch, which isn't that difficult due to their AS4+. Those riders have virtually the same defense against shooting as a black orc, but cost more than twice as much and are subject to animosity.
For obvious reasons they attract plenty of shooting/magic, so screening them in some way is almost a must against any average number of halfway dedicated shooting units.
My opponents always knew the boar riders damage potential, so those almost never made it into combat with more than 3 models. For an almost guaranteed bullet magnet those riders quickly became just way too expensive for my tastes. Same points cost as a basic chaos knight...
Guess mostly playing against dwarfs, empire, khemri and skaven didn't help much :).

Ipeninrod
21-05-2008, 11:52
Pump Wagons!
40points and they are infantry murder machines!

savage orc boar boys draw fire. yup. 6 no command and cover them as best you can. they are a missile magnet or a unit breaker. best unit in the damn list!

Bolt throwers for shooting big targets and knights!

valdrog
21-05-2008, 13:03
Im thinking of making some changes to my Ard'boys 2nd round list, i was going to take 3 giants, but after seeing the damage that 4 repeater bolt trowers can do, im thinking of removing 2 giants and bring 4 Stone trolls and 2 Snotling Pump wagons. The thing is i have never used the pump wagons and trolls, how effective are they ? I know trolls can take an obscene ammount of damage and stay alive, but the pump wagons random movement means that it leaves them open for charges.

Could anyone give me some tips on using this 2 units ? thanks

Avian
21-05-2008, 15:59
My Orcs & Goblins Tactics page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_greenskin_tactics) has stuff on both Pump Wagons (which I don't really like) and Trolls (which I am a great fan of).

See also my Small Monsters Tactica (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/small_monsters.php)

valdrog
21-05-2008, 16:32
thanxs bud, will check them out.

Cortomaltese
21-05-2008, 22:17
There's absolutely no doubt about it: Avian's Stuff is really great! :)

moreover, i'm a great fan of savage units: obviously they're a bit more vulnerable to fire and magic, but i don't think so much!
vanilla orcs on foot have 5+ Armour Save against shooting (at their best), but against all the S4 stuff it's reduced to 6+, which is exactly the WS of savages..
same speech on Boar Boyz: you usually switch 1 or 2 more points in AS for a massive improvement of attacks, which means more casualties for the opponent!

furthermore screening is a MUST using this kind of units: wolf riders for boar boyz and snots for savage orcs are great choice, very cheap in points and versatile for many uses..

in the last days of 6th ed (when boars didn't get 2A) i used 3 5-strong units of savage boar boys, and i Always field at least 12-15 savages on foot..
i've modyfied them from the old starter box, covering all the body with brown painted static grass(an effective fur) and modelling some tribal masks (as the Wurzhagg's one!) but that's another story ;)

woytek
23-05-2008, 07:08
I want to use units of 12/13 savage orcs as small hammer units. They are kind of cheap, core and hard hitting. ItP makes them not a viable target for missile fire which is a plus.

You could even make them big'uns for extra CC potential but that would up the cost a bit.

I really want to use black orcs but does anyone agree with me that there are more interesting special options in our lists? SOBB, spear chucka's, chariots, squig hoppers. Hard infantry is already available in our core choices by taking orcs/savage orcs big'uns. Although they lack armour save and quell animosity.

Avian
23-05-2008, 10:59
It sort of depends. Against a lot of things, Black Orcs are not that bad, though I would not take them in an all-comers list since they are horribly expensive compared to how quickly they die to any sort of ranged attack.

As a side note, I took them in my last battle against the Dwarfs and even with a good amount of firepower, I provided my opponent with enough other interesting / threatening targets that the Black Orcs never got shot at. Instead it was my Trolls and infantry blocks with characters in them that got shot up.

Tuch
23-05-2008, 11:24
My son runs 2 Giants and a lord on a Wyvern, his 6 Savage Boar Riders and 15 Black Orcs seem to never get shot at.

Urgat
23-05-2008, 13:25
It sort of depends. Against a lot of things, Black Orcs are not that bad, though I would not take them in an all-comers list since they are horribly expensive compared to how quickly they die to any sort of ranged attack.

As a side note, I took them in my last battle against the Dwarfs and even with a good amount of firepower, I provided my opponent with enough other interesting / threatening targets that the Black Orcs never got shot at. Instead it was my Trolls and infantry blocks with characters in them that got shot up.

I most case, though, I don't feel like they perform any better than a regular unit of orc boys in which you'd have poured the same amount of points (so you lose a couple point stats, but you get quite a lot more models). I mean, with the cost of a unit of 24 blorcs (it's 24 minimum for me, or they don't get to the enemy...), I could make a unit of... hurgh, maths.... of... of more orcs. More is better :p Shame really, I think the blorcs should be the lords of the battlefield, alongside chaos warriors and lizardmen, but they're just too fragile for their own good.

Gotta admit they performed remarkably in my latest battle though. They got pummeled by an empire fire line for a couple turns, when they reached the enemy lines, they were 10 left, by that time, the battle was lost anyway, so I made that suicide charge on an empire regiment, got countercharged/flanked by a detachment, and proceded with totally ravaging both the parent unit and the detachment. But, well, then the game went back to its normal course, so the empire dude rolled double 1 on his breaktest. Tsss.

lparigi34
23-05-2008, 13:57
All I read is contradictions about Black Orcs... Avian said the y always get shot at... but nobody shoots them... Urgat said the are not that good, but then massacred and empire unit with detachment with only 10 guys...

Fragile against shooting? Maybe. They look like the most heavy clad armoured guys in all WHFB, tough they only save 5+. It should be at least 4+. But still they are T4, giving them great resistance against most arrows and good enough against most S4 shooting.

Expensive? Only mere point higher than a Big'Un that still rolls for animosity, can't change weapons and have one less point of Ld.

As for with Big'Uns I recommend the same with Black Orcs. Do not pay for Champion upgrades. Just too expensive. Unless your unit means to protect a character.

Chaos Mortal
23-05-2008, 14:13
personally ive had great results with Black Orcs however on paper there really not that great.

Edit:


Expensive? Only mere point higher than a Big'Un that still rolls for animosity, can't change weapons and have one less point of Ld.

i think this shows how overpriced bigguns are =P

woytek
23-05-2008, 14:45
Black orcs do look good on paper I think but a whole unit is too expensive when 24 are fielded. They are slow and thus easily evaded, I would rather field 12 to lower cost. However, they would get shot at much faster. The same job can be done by savage orcs that don't even panic. This my problem, why waste the special slot?

I guess that I like faster hard hitting units better. SOBB and chariots for example.

Urgat
23-05-2008, 15:14
Fragile against shooting? Maybe. They look like the most heavy clad armoured guys in all WHFB, tough they only save 5+. It should be at least 4+. But still they are T4, giving them great resistance against most arrows and good enough against most S4 shooting.


Well I face empire, against arquebusiers, it's wounded on 4+, no saves. They pop just like that. If I give them shields, they get a 6+ save... which changes about nothing.


Expensive? Only mere point higher than a Big'Un that still rolls for animosity, can't change weapons and have one less point of Ld.
But big'uns are expensive too. Even more expensive then they should be, compared to orcs, you're right. Well at least they don't take a special choice. Still, I have the same comment as I did for the Blorcs: I don't see what a unit of big'uns can do that a similarly expensive unit of normal boyz cannot do as well.
Only big'uns I pay are savage boar boyz, and it's just for kicks, coz they're so ridiculously devastating. Though I wouldn't field them versus empire, for instance :p

Mozzamanx
24-05-2008, 07:27
What is a decent magic defence for 2000pts? I think that O&G are better than most because they have so many people, but spells which cause panic are horrible.

I was thinking of 2 lvl 2 Shaman, one with Staff of Stealing. Would that be enough?

woytek
24-05-2008, 09:18
Mork's spirit totem on a black orc big boss on boar and a level 1 goblin shaman with scrolls or staff of sneaky stealing in a chariot. 6 DD + 2 scrolls or 7 DD with -1 to opponent's power dice.

Chaos Mortal
24-05-2008, 10:04
morks spirit totem is a must for your BSB in a big unit of boyz in the centre of your line i feel then add a shaman with the staff of sneaky stealen should give you sufficient magic defence.

Urgat
24-05-2008, 10:24
I was thinking of 2 lvl 2 Shaman, one with Staff of Stealing. Would that be enough?

That's my setup (excepted they're two level 1, I don't cast spells), it's usually enough. Can't say I've tried it against powerdice factories like the new VC, though.
Mork's spirit totem, I find it's usualy placed in a unit that will attaract a lot of fire, and its efficiency then melts like snow in summer (eg. very fast).

woytek
24-05-2008, 10:39
That's my setup (excepted they're two level 1, I don't cast spells), it's usually enough. Can't say I've tried it against powerdice factories like the new VC, though.
Mork's spirit totem, I find it's usualy placed in a unit that will attaract a lot of fire, and its efficiency then melts like snow in summer (eg. very fast).

It is one of the best magic items O&G have if not THE best. Give the banner to the BSB black orc on boar and he can move to nearby orc units if his gets shot to pieces.

Urgat
24-05-2008, 10:48
The fact that it forces me to take an orc BSB is not a good point for me, to begin with. Or you can put the banner in a unit of blorcs or big'uns, and that brings me back to my previous post: missile magnet= banner useless by turn two or three depending on who you play.

woytek
24-05-2008, 12:26
The fact that it forces me to take an orc BSB is not a good point for me, to begin with. Or you can put the banner in a unit of blorcs or big'uns, and that brings me back to my previous post: missile magnet= banner useless by turn two or three depending on who you play.

Why would you not field a BSB? Magic is useless in this edition for O&G so one goblin chariot caddy is enough usually. Black orcs are needed to quell animosity in your main blocks, a BSB can do this job fine too.

Then you have two black orcs on boar in your orcs (choppa+shield, 23 big) to make a solid center. Have some chariots that are also reliable for support and finish it with some cavalry and war machines....

Urgat
24-05-2008, 12:47
I play gobs mostly, I don't take orcs to begin with. BSB are pretty much useless with gobs, since when you take a break test, usually, no amount of reroll will save you. In 2000 points, I take three shamans, they giove me all the dispell dies I need. Quell animosity I don't need, and I dispise scroll caddies. then I have a common goblin general, with nothing but protection items, on wolf, that runs around to lend his Ld were needed (usualy, nearby my trolls :p). That setup saves me an aweful amount of points, which are poured into my core choices, since considering the specials and rares I pick - hoppers and trolls, and a couple spearchukkas if 2000+-, the budget for these is pretty much the same in every battle. I end up with a large army built around magic defense (whenever I try and go magic offensive, things quickly turn very nasty - for me), a common goblin "anvil" unit (hw+shield), a few wolf rider units, and night goblins (large gob units, 30+ the lot of them, excepted the odd archer unit). I tend to do very well with that setup. Granted, I struggle whenever I'm faced with monsters, but all armies got weaknesses anyway.
This way, I do increase tremendously the number of units that may fail an animosity test (but I play greenskins since 5th ed, I'm fairly used to accepting that animosity will kick in at the worst time. Well, I'm still not used to that new 6 result, which I hate with a passion), but I also increase the number of units that won't fail it. If I have 5 units, and one fails an animosity test, I get 4 operational units. If I field 8 units and two fail the animosity test, I have 6 operational units. To me it's obvious which is better.

So I'm not obtuse, I've considered (many times) the benefits of quell animosity (not this edition, though, the new rule sucks, why should I have nasty malus to remove a rule that nobody else suffers from to begin with?), and I found out it ampered nastily with my playstyle. For the amount I pay to quell animosity in one unit, I lose a lot of points I could put in, say, another gob unit. So I get one unit that won't fail its animosity test (but will occasionally hammer itself) instead of two units. No matter what, my opponents are more annoyed by two units that may fail their test, rather than one that won't, but will help him lower its own numbers.
Now I'm aware that I have a rather particular view on how to play greenkins, I'm certainly NOT saying my way is best, but years of playing have proven that it worked much better that way for me.
One final point, for some reason, I have unbelievably bad luck whenever I field orcs (units or characters), so this further strenghtens my views :D

woytek
24-05-2008, 12:57
Well this explains a lot! See, this discussion is actually quiet useless since I play mainly orcs. Goblins I use for the fast cav and war machines (and sometimes fanatics).

This means my heroes will always be black orcs and I use them to quell animosity. It would be stupid of course to take orc heroes and not use the special rule, that's how I feel at least. I like to have a center that stays reliable and the black orcs do that well. I don't really care about casualties since I have had whole units destroyed due to one failed animosity test.

Since I use black orc characters with one scroll caddy for DD and a free special slot chariot, the logical next step is to make one a BSB with mork's spirit totem since I need magic defense.

Mozzamanx
31-05-2008, 21:37
I just ordered a Giant, and he seems pretty solid. Apart from charging him up and avoiding war machines like the plague, are there any special schemes for him? What are his favourite targets?

Urgat
01-06-2008, 10:12
One advice: avoid ogre-sized monsters like the plague too. You can never kill more than one, and you (baring botched strike back or yelling) will lose combat.

FuSs
01-06-2008, 11:56
My giant allways failed me. Too much beer i guess.
For the same points you get 5 trolls though which have 15 wounds which are like 22 if you count in regeneration.
Sure they are stupid but hey who cares?

Tuch
01-06-2008, 15:00
I see that everyone talks about Wolf Riders without mentioning Spider Riders. Doesn't ignoring terrain and poison makes up for 2" less in movement?

Shamfrit
01-06-2008, 15:02
I always take Spider Riders, even if it's only one unit of 6 with a musician, they're much better than wolf riders for the above reasons, swing into woods, flank, and the poison adds that much needed punch!

fubukii
01-06-2008, 16:57
you could always take a units of spider riders and units of wolf riders, they are both cheap enough.

Grimgormx
01-06-2008, 19:19
Have you ever tried Savage orc big ones, with shield and spear.....???

Nasty, and really good flank guardians, and excellent shock troops

If you are going to take boar riders, always take savage orc, 2 atacks for the rider and 2 atacks for the boar, plus 1 atack if you are using Nogg's banner

5A S5 when you charge, in a small front of 5 Riders with captain. 26 attacks, really good line breakers, I always use 8

with all the big things around 4 spear chukas is a must.

1 Giant (I killed a star dragon and his rider with 1 Giant)

Grimgormx
01-06-2008, 19:22
wolf riders, and spider riders, 2 units with 5 from each , equiped with short bows, and a musician.

sephiroth87
02-06-2008, 21:37
As far as giants go, I used to run a list with 3 orc shamans (1 great and 2 littluns) along with an orc bigboss on a boar as the general. I was just looking to get the waaaagh! spell, since I had 4 chariots and 2 giants. It actually worked pretty well. Most people couldn't hang with the amount of magic I was throwing. I learned very quickly not to throw more than 3 dice at any spell, as the great shaman could 'eadbang very easily.

But it's a really fun list.

Mozzamanx
05-06-2008, 06:30
Is going magic-heavy really a good idea? Seems like an awful risk with all the headbangs...

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 06:50
Is going magic-heavy really a good idea? Seems like an awful risk with all the headbangs...

O&G seems to be based on extreme risk taking. Magic especially. Otherwise why magic mushrooms?;)

woytek
05-06-2008, 06:56
Magic heavy in 6th edition was very viable, but in 7th? No way!

Best thing to do now is use the famous caddy chariot. Field a lvl 1 gobbo in a wolf chariot and give him either 2 scrolls or the staff of sneaky stealing.

Together with Mork's Spirit Totem this will give you 6DD + 2scrolls or 7DD and -1PD for the opponent.

Marwynn
05-06-2008, 07:02
Question: Is there a greenskin website? You know, like Druchii.net, Ulthuan.net, warhammer-empire.com, and so on?

I've been eyeing the OnG for a bit now, they seem like loads of fun and would let me do some crazy unit mixes.

sephiroth87
05-06-2008, 15:31
www.da-warpath.net


On the magic list, it was always hit and miss. The orc and goblin 'eadbang chart isn't that much worse than the regular list, especially if you use a lot of tough models. That way, if you roll the infamous double 1s for your miscast result, you're wounding chariots, giants, and orcs on 5's and 6's. Also, with the waaagh spell, many people aren't prepared for sending giants into combat on turn 3 with magic.

Mozzamanx
14-06-2008, 12:21
At the moment, my army is mostly Goblin infantry with no real Hammer units. I'm getting the Army deal sometime soon, but until then what is better for bashing stuff?

-Squig Hoppers
-Squig Herds
-Savage Orcs
-Pump Wagons?

neXus6
15-06-2008, 00:12
Hmm...well if it was ALL Goblin I'd say steer clear of the Savage Orcs just to keep the theme going.

Mind you that said if anyone is stupid enough to charge into battle with a bunch of Gobbos it's the Savages. :p

I'd say go with what you like the look of best all three of those units hit very hard, unless your against High Elves, in which case the T4 means savage orcs and probably charge the front of a full spearelf unit and win...while the Squigs would die even in the flank...
and if you have a rare slot going spare take the Pump Wagons anyway. :D

I need to finish kicking my Greenskin army back into shape. I've been an O&G player for 14 years but my army has been out of commission for the last few. :(

That said it's mostly just a case of basing and spraying with the odd repair job here and there.

I hate scrolls, and hate scroll caddies even more, so it's no surprise I'm taking the Spirit Totem and a lvl 1 gobbo with the Staff of Stealin. :D

Those 2 and a Warboss, but I'm not sure what to take as my 4th character...a lvl 2 Shaman to actually have a little magical out put or just pile a Big Boss into one of my large orc units?

The army is looking like - Warboss, BSB, Gobbo Shaman, 2x25 Orcs, 2x20 Night Goblins, 2x5 Wolf Riders, 2 Boar Chariots, 2 Spear Chukkas, some Boar Boyz (either a big unit to put the Warboss in, or a small unit of Savage Bigunz...to put the Warboss in), and then either a Giant or 2 Pump Wagons and a Doom Diver.

Heretic Burner
15-06-2008, 04:18
Is going magic-heavy really a good idea? Seems like an awful risk with all the headbangs...

No, the O&G magic phase is broken at the moment. Dreadful miscast table aside the main problem is animosity which effectively gives your opponent free dispel scrolls shutting down your magic phase with the very minimum of their own magic defence.

Of course with all that added risk you would expect higher rewards however O&G magic isn't even particularly effective with the Little Waaagh particularly poorly thought out.

Avoid spending significant points on magic at all costs. O&G are easily the worst in the game.

stashman
15-06-2008, 08:29
I ALWAYS have atleast one Stone Troll. With MR2 he is superior when opponents try to use area affected spells, thats when the trolls MR2 come in handy (very handy).

One unit that I think is worthless (to me anyway) is the expensive and "weak" boarboys. I have a hard time using them.

Goblin wolfriders are always a good choice (low cost, god diverters etc.)

woytek
15-06-2008, 11:56
I thought that you may not use magic resistance to dispel area effected spells?

The boarboyz are far from worthless though. They deal major damage and are immune to psych, which prevents them from panicking. 230 points will get you 6 SOBB already!

neXus6
15-06-2008, 15:13
Savage Orc Boar Boy Big Unz do seem to be the only valid type of boar boy really. They are almost wandering into Khorne BloodCrusher territory for less than half the points, not to mention being higher Toughness. :D

Meanwhile normal Orc Boar Boys come in at a similar points cost to Knights Errant, yet are slower, have a worse save, no lance formation, no free champion, worse Leadership, no Ward save and the pro/con of Animosity. :wtf:
Though that might say more about Brets than our army. :p

Shamfrit
15-06-2008, 15:36
But on the other hand, they're not frenzied...

Big Un Boar Boyz are a worthy investment in which case, and can be a good carrier for a Warboss into a flank for some relatively good killyness.

But a Savage Orc Shaman in that SvgBoarBoy unit with Porgo's Piggsticka and slam it into a large unit...+2 to cast with Waaagh Paint, ASF Re-rolling SAVAGE ORCS!

stashman
15-06-2008, 23:08
I thought that you may not use magic resistance to dispel area effected spells?


Can't find anything that says not, and none is complaning about it.

Are we wrong at our gamingcommunity?

woytek
16-06-2008, 12:00
I don't know for sure but I thought it was in some FAQ/Errata? Maybe anyone can shed light on this matter?

lparigi34
16-06-2008, 14:39
I'm pretty sure that if the area effect affects the Troll, the the MR2 kicks in and you get the 2 dice.

neXus6
16-06-2008, 16:20
You can use magic resistance on any spell which has a unit with MR in it's Area of Effect.

Malendil
16-06-2008, 17:15
I have found wolf/spider riders to be pretty useless against vampire counts, between animosity and fear tests I can't seem to get them to charge in the flanks where I need them to remove rank/outnumbering bonus.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to other units that would be useful for flank or rear charges?

Mozzamanx
24-06-2008, 10:33
Against Vamps, I'd say some Savage Boar boyz- They hit like a truck, and are ItP so no fear checks required. They don't even need to flank, since they get such crazy high combat resolution they can take the front. Just watch out for ASF undead, dey'z nasty.


How would a Goblin Big Boss on Giant spider, with the One Hit Wonder and Brimstone Bauble fare? Pick an expensive target, he can crawl through any terrain to get there and then he smacks them up with Str10. Even if he dies, he explosms!

big squig
24-06-2008, 10:38
I've been using squigs against vamps since they are immune to psychology.

sephiroth87
25-06-2008, 00:15
Played 2 games against VC this weekend, one win and one draw. My list had a warboss with 1+ armor save and 5+ ward, BSB black orc with boar, armor, Mork's Totem, goblin hero with tricksy trinket and one hit wunda on chariot, and savage orc bigboss with sword of might, chariot, armor, and shield.

The rest of the army was squig hoppers, giant, boar chariot, 2 25 man units of orcs with shields, a unit of 20 night goblins with 2 fanatics, 10 savage boars with the war banner and musician, 2 units of 5 wolf riders, one unit of 5 spiders, doom diver, and 2 spear chukkas.

In the first game, I managed to throw the savage orc and the goblin hero into the general's unit. He challenged and I accepted with the orc boss. The boss downed him with a lot of strength 5 frenzied attacks. It was about the third turn that he died and the army had a tough time, even with the guy throwing around a lot of raise dead magic.

In the second, he had the general in a black knight unit, so it was a little harder to get to with the chariot units. We basically managed to move around each other with him trying to use dire wolves to pop out my fanatics early and bait my frenzied units into bad charges. I managed to get the giant and a chariot into a flank, rolled the swing with club result, and killed some knights. Chariot did diddly squat by rolling a 1 for impact hits. Then the vampire knocked the giant down to two wounds. Combat res got them down to 2 knights and the general. On the next turn, the vampire managed to kill the giant.

In both games, they were both throwing 11-13 dice a turn trying to draw out my dispel dice. Both had the book of arkhan. They would throw a since dice per spell, which hurt my feelings as I only took Mork's totem, giving me 5 versus their 10+ dice and bound spells. I simply had to resort to letting every spell go through except for the book of arkhan and vanhel's danse macabre. But savage boars, giants, squig hoppers, and anything fast with a lot of attacks usually scares them into playing conservatively with their general. The second opponent steered clear of the goblin toting the one hit wunda and the ward save canceling trinket.

Dranthar
25-06-2008, 01:08
Okay, so I take an all goblin list that I've found to be deceptively effective, having won far more games than lost with them. I've more or less settled on a list I'm happy with, with minor variations depending on mood and points value.

In terms of magic, I take 2 level 2's with nibblas ring, the staff of sneaky stealing and a dispel scroll. I've found that it's usually enough to hold off the worst of my opponents magic and can keep the pressure on my opponent in my own magic phase. With the exception of the first spell (which is pants against everything that isn't a T3 knight), I've found the little WAAGH to be pretty decent. It's not uber-awesome (like the Vampire or daemon lores, for instance), but more than enough to be a threat to your opponent. It also tends to do some decent damage too -just last game I squished an Ogre Tyrant with mork wants ya and battered a some ogre units with Foot of Gork.
The way I figure it, the 2 level 2's are primarily there to counter enemy magic, with offensive power being a secondary consideration.

As for animosity, I've very rarely found it to be a serious issue, and I don't believe I've ever lost a game due to poor animosity roll. With only 4 levels of magic my game isn't ruined if my mages are in a squabbling unit, and that's assuming they're even inside a unit (with foot of gork you can happily hide him at the back of your table edge and still be fully effective).

The 6's for animosity, even the possibility of a 6 for animosity has been great for me. Obviously you can't rely on it, but with maybe a single exception, getting a surprise charge off on my opponent has always been of a huge benfit.

I've never tried 10 levels of magic. I'm generally not a fan of going all magic anyway although a failed animosity test becomes a bigger deal when you rely heavily on your magic phase. If I did however, I'd be using savage orc shamans for it. Those guys are still half-decent in combat so assuming you don't do anything stupid like taking on Lord-level heroes, they should fare allright.

Kaos
25-06-2008, 01:35
I have allways fielded a black orc unit of 19+warboss in my games and they got even better with the new book. I give them all options and banner of butchery. Even if they are targeted for shooting and only the front rank gets to the target they beat the crap out of anything and win back their points. And besides thats only when theyre targeted... i got loads of other more immidiate threats that opponents wants to deal with. Like chariots, wolfriders sneaking around flanks, giants and other stuff.


This is how i rank my opponents targeting against me.

1: Fast cav. Noone wants them behind your lines or in the sides, or hindering marching.
2: Giants. Everyone see it, everyone hates it, everyone fears it.

3: Chariots and warmachines, single trolls. This i think has to be because people wants to take out my stuff who can take out their troops or other machines. kinda like rock-scissor-hand..

4: Units. Shooting up 20+ T4 orcs or 25-30+ goblins that noone cares about seems less fun or urgent than targeting the above.

This is my experience trough meeting all kinds of opponents and armies in friendly games and tournaments trough all the years i have played.

Cheers
Kaos

semersonp
25-06-2008, 16:08
i prefer night gobbos myself... my unit of 42 w/spears are the old metal models... some very lewd gobby stances let me tell ya...

adding two more save isnt a bad option but the ability to carry fanatics, throw nets and run away more often is just too much to pass up...

rock lobbers make me sad... two spear chuckers w/bully for 80 pts makes for a return on investment every time...

briefly...

the steals of the o+g army:
night gobbo shams
spider riders
savage boys
spear chuckers
squig hoppers
pump wagons

work the above units into the rest of your army if you're looking for a diverse and powerful force

go green
:rolleyes:

Gobbo Lord
25-06-2008, 22:41
Arrrgh wood elves. How do you deal with a Treeman. I threw a night goblin big boss with guzzlas battle brew (hatred) and wollopas one hit wonda ridinga great cave squig into it only to be squashed flat. Then a unit os squig herders which he preceeded to tread on like over-ripe oranges. It then caused my last orc and night goblin unit to flee.
All i had left was one snotling base which made all the way to the opponents table edge corner and ended the last turn behind a hill. The fact i saw that as an accomplishment shows how badly i was trounced into the dirt.

Kaos
26-06-2008, 06:27
Arrrgh wood elves. How do you deal with a Treeman. I threw a night goblin big boss with guzzlas battle brew (hatred) and wollopas one hit wonda ridinga great cave squig into it only to be squashed flat. Then a unit os squig herders which he preceeded to tread on like over-ripe oranges. It then caused my last orc and night goblin unit to flee.
All i had left was one snotling base which made all the way to the opponents table edge corner and ended the last turn behind a hill. The fact i saw that as an accomplishment shows how badly i was trounced into the dirt.

Treemen are very tough indeed. A couple of boltthrowers might help. Or Magic.. Foot of gork or gorks warpath or perhaps the best way is to get as many goblin shamans you can so you get Mork Wants ya. D6 S10 if he dont avoid on his initiative of 1. :) Or otherwise run up to it with a very angry warboss with a very large axe ;) Perhaps on a wyvern or such.

Pyrofighter
26-06-2008, 11:54
Could anyone give me some advice on pumpwagons and chariots? (How to use them)

And also i have a problem with my spider riders.. they have really prove themselfs good, since they always kill like 1 dark elf per game.. :cries:

sephiroth87
26-06-2008, 12:08
On the treeman, I've found that a couple of bolt throwers is usually enough to knock it down to 2-3 wounds before you charge it. After that, using a basic ranked unit will do the job far better than a character, unless the character is tooled up with the best armor save you can get. If I'm planning on sending anything into combat with the treeman, it's a cheap goblin unit or an orc unit with my warboss in tow. I've run treemen down far more often with static combat res (he CAN fail that stubborn roll) than with killing him outright. But the warboss with a 1+/5+ save has a pretty good shot at killing it if it's down to two wounds.

ubertechie
26-06-2008, 12:34
I use savage orcs as a fun army which is a good antidote from other armies and my list is

Savage orc lord - extra choppa

Savage Orc, Shaman, extra level, 2 dispel scrol

Savage orc hero, chariot, spear

Savage orc hero, chariot, spear

22 Savage Orc big uns, extra choppa, full command

24 Savage Orcs, extra choppa, full command

5 Spider riders with bows

5 Spider riders with bows

5 Spider riders with bows

5 Spider riders with bows

4 Bolt Throwers

5 Savage Orc Boar Boys, shields, spears, boss

5 Savage Orc Boar Boys, shields, spears, boss

10 Savage Orc Arrer boyz, extra choppa

They play mean and fun - big win or big loose - however they never struggle with treemen or other large critters as 4 bolt throwers almost always pay themselves back and they are great against knights to boot.

Tuch
26-06-2008, 12:42
And also i have a problem with my spider riders.. they have really prove themselfs good, since they always kill like 1 dark elf per game..

Run a 6 gobbo unit and use them like any other fast cavalry unit, to bait and flee in order to set up counter charges. They are also effective hiding in terrain or just to the side of it and charging through on flanks.

Poison helps but they wont kill much on their own, just like most fast cavalry they do what they do and they do it well, especially due to ignoring terrain.

Twisted Soul
27-06-2008, 05:58
Can someone answer a question for me. I can't take a chariot for a mount with my savage orc shaman, however if i take a chariot with my special choice can i put the savage orc shaman in it?

Kaos
27-06-2008, 07:31
Can someone answer a question for me. I can't take a chariot for a mount with my savage orc shaman, however if i take a chariot with my special choice can i put the savage orc shaman in it?

no you cant, if its not a option for the shaman.

Urgat
27-06-2008, 08:13
How would a Goblin Big Boss on Giant spider, with the One Hit Wonder and Brimstone Bauble fare? Pick an expensive target, he can crawl through any terrain to get there and then he smacks them up with Str10. Even if he dies, he explosms!

Yay, awesome! You sacrify 110 points and a hero choice for 3 S10 attacks.

Pyrofighter
27-06-2008, 09:44
Hey thanks! Im gonna try that with my spiders, also the fear of elves rule with the night gobbos, i read something that it only worked if the elves outnumbered the gobbos? Is that true ?
And if your night gobbos have fanatics inside, they lose them if they flee. Would a wall of spider riders help ?

Urgat
27-06-2008, 11:51
Hey thanks! Im gonna try that with my spiders, also the fear of elves rule with the night gobbos, i read something that it only worked if the elves outnumbered the gobbos? Is that true ?


Goblins fear all elves they don't outnumber 2 to 1. So if you got 39 goblins and they charge a unit of 20 elves, they will fear the elves. 40 goblins won't fear the 20 elves.

FuSs
27-06-2008, 16:49
Guys how do you fare against the new demons?
Had my first game (1500pts) against them today and it wasnt nice. Especially his killing blow 0+ AS juggernaut khorne herold was pesky.
Not to mention the typical fear+outnumber and fear+'we are too scared to charge' issues. Add some stupid squabbles and you have a lost game ;)

Is a giant or some trolls worth it versus demons?

Canadian_Khan
27-06-2008, 17:11
Hey

Just wandering if my hero choices are good combos in you opinion

I have:

Orc Warboss on boar with Enchanted Shield, the Iron Gnasha, the UM's big boss at and the sword of battle ( or sword of striking... I hesitate )... one heavy... heavy fighter... pretty well protected with a 2+ Armor save and Killing blow... I'll get him in a regiment of 25 Orc Boyz...

Night Goblin Big Boss on Giant squig with the sneaky skewerer and the Brimstaune Bauble... the low cost guy that jumps everywhere on the table, getting as many kills as possible ( I also have 10 squig hoppers, I'll have him right next to them ) before exploding ina bigger bang!

Orc Shaman lvl 2... dispel scroll and Nibbla's itty ring, probably in another 25 orc regiment...

Night Goblin lvl 2... dispel scroll and Mad Cap Mushrooms... in a regiment that has 2 fanatics...archers they are, but I place my archers up front 20 on one big line... if I wheel them, I may be able to get the fanatics to the enemy on one turn...

Any comments? I think they's pretty good combos, BUT, I'm only starting my army...

Heretic Burner
27-06-2008, 23:07
For effectiveness? No, they're horrible choices.

First you're magic heavy. O&G are currently the very worst army in the game at that department. As far as shamans go take a scroll caddy and nothin' else.

Now you've got 3 choices left. And quite frankly you don't have much choice here either - black orcs. Kitting them out depends very much on your army, generally stay away from the expensive weapons and you'll likely be better off. In the grand scheme of WH BO (war)bosses may be dreadful but they aren't nearly as dreadful as the alternative. The points you pay to minimize animosity in a unit or three are the very most effective points you can ever spend in the army - no question about it.

Characters aren't around for "combos", they are part of your overall battleplan. Granted O&G are the very worst army in the game at actually adhereing to that battle plan but you make do with what you can. No sense making a bad situation worse. In particular its not a good idea to handicap yourself to such a degree when you are just starting out an army.

Shimmergloom
28-06-2008, 01:49
Against daemons start putting warbosses on wyverns.

Daemons are herohammer, so you need good characters to hold them off as well and basic orcs and night goblins are not going to cut it alone.

I'd suggest:

1. General, black orc(so he can ignore orc/goblin panic and have hvy armor +1WS which is all useful vs daemons) riding wyvern w/heavy armor and shield.

Shagga's sword(deamons depend on their characters and get big bonuses for putting them in units, so you should often get +2A and +2S from the sword, hopefully more)

boss 'at, if you wish upgrade the shield to an enchanted shield. Or if you feel lucky go shaggas, kickin' boots, tailsman of protection, for more attacks, but worse ward save. The daemons will often just attack your wyvern, so it may be well worth it to nerf your ward a bit, since the warlord may be attacked less and thus ensure you have an extra attack, which you will sorely need.

2. Big boss, bsb. Black orc
riding boar, heavy armor.

Always. Always. Always give him mork's totem and put him in a big block of orcs. Move him if need be into another block of orcs or goblins if that block takes a beating from magic.

3. Mantatory Shaman. Don't expect to get any spells off. I'd go for a lvl. 1 night goblin with 2 scrolls or sneaky staff. Hide him as best you can for the entire game. don't waste the points on a chariot and goblin upgrade over night gobbo. He'll never pass his fear tests.

4. This one is tougher.

But against daemons, I'd say an orc or black orc big boss on boar, akkrit axe or best basha, shield and lt armor or heavy armor. spend a few points on the collar of zorga or battle brew if you wish.

If you choose an orc, put him in a savage unit to bulk them up even more(and you do need savages vs daemons). If you were to take savage boar boyz, then definately upgrade the orc to a savage orc big boss, with akkrit axe.

You could also go all out and put him in a chariot if you have the points and feel he'll pass his fear tests(or make him a savage to ensure he won't have to worry about the fear tests).

You're characters will still be outclassed, but will be better suited to take on daemons. You will still need chukkas and a giant and squig hoppers and 1-2 blocks of orcs, 1 block of savages or savage boar boyz, 1-2 units of fast cav and 1-2 blocks of night goblins to fill out the army. After all that, with any points you have left concentrate on bringing in more chukkas, a doom diver and or lobba to bring more shooting to the table to take out hopefully something.

Dranthar
28-06-2008, 06:51
For effectiveness? No, they're horrible choices.

First you're magic heavy. O&G are currently the very worst army in the game at that department.
2 level 2's is magic heavy? Well that's the first time I've ever heard anyone calling 4 levels of magic as "heavy".
Personally I think 2 level 2's is fine. They're a nice balance between magic offense and defense, yet not a large enough investment in points to ruin your game if they fail to do much. For pure defense however, a scroll caddie and/or a BSB with morks spirit totem is fine.

As for the rest...


Orc Warboss on boar with Enchanted Shield, the Iron Gnasha, the UM's big boss at and the sword of battle ( or sword of striking... I hesitate )... one heavy... heavy fighter... pretty well protected with a 2+ Armor save and Killing blow... I'll get him in a regiment of 25 Orc Boyz...




Night Goblin Big Boss on Giant squig with the sneaky skewerer and the Brimstaune Bauble... the low cost guy that jumps everywhere on the table, getting as many kills as possible ( I also have 10 squig hoppers, I'll have him right next to them ) before exploding ina bigger bang!
I'm a big fan of exploding units, and I take a variation of the above myself(except on a wolf). That said, a hero like the above is really just the equivalent of a squig hopper unit, or at least that's how I see him. If you have spare special slots, I'd take another unit of squig hoppers instead. Other than that, make sure you're not simply throwing this hero away without getting much value out of him. On a squig he's not really that cheap, so you'll need to be sure you're actually hitting high-value targets that he can actually damage.


Orc Shaman lvl 2... dispel scroll and Nibbla's itty ring, probably in another 25 orc regiment...
Not bad. Pretty standard for a O&G shaman in any case. Just remember that without your second lvl 2, below, you're better off with a scroll caddie instead.


Night Goblin lvl 2... dispel scroll and Mad Cap Mushrooms... in a regiment that has 2 fanatics...archers they are, but I place my archers up front 20 on one big line... if I wheel them, I may be able to get the fanatics to the enemy on one turn...
The "fanatic slingshot" is generally frowned upon, given that it's really just taking advantage of a loophole in the movement rules to get a cheap shot at the opponent. I also don't like the mad-cap mushrooms, primarilly because I don't believe in relying on unreliable fanatics to win games for me. Fanatics can be devastating, sure, but they can also be neutralised by a smart enough opponent. Definitely take a few fanatics, but assume they'll be devastating every game.

Personally, I equip my second level 2 with a staff of sneaky stealing, although recently I've been thinking of instead taking a staff of sorcery and 2 magic mushrooms. The staff is quite handy for all those VC armies and the odd OK army around, while the mushrooms help me keep the pressure on my opopnent in the magic phase.


Now you've got 3 choices left. And quite frankly you don't have much choice here either - black orcs.

I don't agree. As I said before, animosity has rarely been a major detriment in my games. Black Orc Bosses are handy for avoiding it, but they'e also a fair bit more expensive than your standard warboss, especialy if you don't plan to take advantage of their enhanced WS or the 'armed to da teef' rule. Basically, I'd say that if you don't want to take a magic weapon and you can spare the points, take a black orc boss. Otherwise, a 'vanilla' Orc Boss is much more economical.

Out of interest Heretic Burner, do you use your O&G army all that much nowadays? From your posts I get the impression that you gave up on them shortly after the latest O&G army book came out.

Pyrofighter
29-06-2008, 20:31
They dont suck that hard i think... I win less with O&G then i did with lizzies but they can be very strong!

btw:
Does anyone know how to use a pumpwagon?

Mozzamanx
02-07-2008, 13:52
Surely its just to smash it into some infantry? Lots of str 4 hits hurts, plus its cheap enough to be expendable. 40pts of cheap death!

woytek
02-07-2008, 14:24
I don't like them. Although 40 pts. is cheap i'd rather spend the points on a doom diver or spear chukka.

Heretic Burner
02-07-2008, 22:26
Out of interest Heretic Burner, do you use your O&G army all that much nowadays? From your posts I get the impression that you gave up on them shortly after the latest O&G army book came out.

No, not really. I gave it a good go but it seems quite obvious the book is a total disaster. I still try to play as much O&G as I can using the 6th edition book which remains enjoyable to this day. Other than that why play a broken army when I have a solid army like Empire to play instead?

semersonp
04-07-2008, 04:18
you asked so i'll tell ya...

'cuz they're the best...

the best at being on purpose, story oriented murder machines...

as i've said before and i'll say again... orks gathered enough of themselves to destroy the old world in a blaze of green glory... wiping the universe clean of virtually all life save for themselves...

and three seconds after that they turned on each other with the same abandon they used to decimate everyone else... now all that remains is a lone world chock full of stranded starfarers who will never again escape the surly bonds of gravity...

what other army has to check to see if it attacks itself? what other army can legitimately field such disparate troop choices and not claim a general with a deathwish? what other army has such unparalleled offense and an ice cream headache of a defense? who else can profess to be such an integral part of warhammer itself?

nobody, thats who! :)

you play them for the love of them... your love leads you to victory... your victories are peppered with the occasional self inflicted defeat... your defeats engender a need for requital... this need leads you to play them one more time...

and the wondrous cycle begins anew...

ride the green tsunami...

lasergreger
04-07-2008, 09:15
*sniffle* Word man, word. *raises a green fist of pride*


Other than that why play a broken army when I have a solid army like Empire to play instead?

If you only play to win, then switch to poker or sports where you can atleast earn money.
Warhammer is a game of and for F U N.

Pyrofighter
05-07-2008, 09:09
I hear lots o people talk about that O&G sucks, but why is that so? (thanks if anyone can explain)

Mozzamanx
05-07-2008, 12:44
They don't suck, its just that they are hard to control. Low leadership coupled with Animosity means that you need multiple 'backup' units, incase your units start doing their own thing.

Dranthar
05-07-2008, 13:05
I hear lots o people talk about that O&G sucks, but why is that so? (thanks if anyone can explain)

It's the animosity, mostly. That, as well as the low leadership can make for a relatively unreliable army. Unreliability means that the army doesn't always do what you want it to, which some people find to be quite frustrating.
I don't believe it makes the army uncompetitive, indeed I have something like a 2:1 win ratio with my goblins.

It seems to me that you need a certain mindset to play an O&G army. I've always found my goblins too be absolutely hilarious in every game I play, and while there are setbacks thanks to the odd failed Ld test or animosity roll, it has rarely cost me a game and I've certainly never felt like it's spoilt any game for me.

Perhaps then, it's just a matter of perspective?

Killnik
05-07-2008, 13:42
Sorry guys, just a quick question, which probably has a simple answer

Goblin Shaman with spells that don't require line of sight, but i want them in the unit for protection, do they have to be at the front? Or can I stick him in the back/ middle of a unit to just bumble along with the boys?

If it's in the rulebook they have to be in the front can someone confirm which page it says that?

(As i really can't see units of Orcs putting up with a goblin in the front, but we all know game dynamics over ride reality checks)

semersonp
05-07-2008, 14:12
p73 BfSP BRB

'automatically placed in... front rank'

if there isn't room in the front rank he displaces a standard bearer, musician or champion... etc

only skaven can have their characters in the rear ranks as a choice

Heretic Burner
05-07-2008, 18:17
you asked so i'll tell ya...

'cuz they're the best...

Well, no actually they're the very worst. Statistically all other armies outperform O&G. The recent army book is a disaster of poor rules, poor fluff, ghastly editing, and multiple pages of blatant advertisement...in short its dreadful in virtually every way.


the best at being on purpose, story oriented murder machines...

Huh? The fluff has been turned on its head this edition. Black orcs have become packrats collecting weapons. The storyline has been thrown right out the window.


as i've said before and i'll say again... orks gathered enough of themselves to destroy the old world in a blaze of green glory... wiping the universe clean of virtually all life save for themselves...

Orks? Why are you talking about orks? Wrong forum. Maybe the Ork codex is decent, the O&G book certainly isn't. Whatever you are talking about certainly did not happen in the WHFB universe.



and three seconds after that they turned on each other with the same abandon they used to decimate everyone else... now all that remains is a lone world chock full of stranded starfarers who will never again escape the surly bonds of gravity...

I have no idea where this is from. It certainly in no way describes orcs, goblins, snotlings, or any other part of the greenskin army.



what other army has to check to see if it attacks itself?

Skaven for one. Chaos Dwarfs. OK. Etc, etc, etc...



what other army can legitimately field such disparate troop choices and not claim a general with a deathwish?

All armies in the game can field a number of troop choices. I have no idea what this means.



what other army has such unparalleled offense and an ice cream headache of a defense?

Empire. LM. Skaven. Elves of all stripes. Actually virtually every army in the game is offensively stronger than O&G. If anything they don't have too poor a defense at all (at least ignoring their dreadfully protected characters) with multiple T4 units. I don't think we're even playing the same army.



who else can profess to be such an integral part of warhammer itself?

Undoubtedly Chaos. O&G are so far out of the picture right now they put Matt Ward on the book, someone who doesn't even have a greenskin army! O&G are the appendix of Warhammer at the moment which is a shame.



nobody, thats who! :)

Suuurre...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale to anyone who believes that one.



you play them for the love of them... your love leads you to victory... your victories are peppered with the occasional self inflicted defeat... your defeats engender a need for requital... this need leads you to play them one more time...

Once again I have no idea what this means. O&G were once a fine army now a complete disaster. If GW put out an overhauled army book that returned them to at least halfway decent I would likely play them more often.



and the wondrous cycle begins anew...

About the only cycle going on right now is the cycle of power creep. Sadly O&G have a long time to wait before they are brought up to being even halfway competitive with some of the new dreadfully balanced releases.



ride the green tsunami...

At least there is always 6th edition to play before GW goes out of business.

Dranthar
06-07-2008, 02:30
I just love your light-hearted banter Heretic. :rolleyes:

kroq'gar
06-07-2008, 03:55
So O&G tactics are infact to whine your oppoenent into submission by repeatedly stating how terrible your list is?

I'll tell you what sucks - doom divers. ridiculasly accurate cavalry death on a stick.


Heres my question- does anyone ever field a giant squig, if so, how and hows it go?

Dranthar
06-07-2008, 05:32
So O&G tactics are infact to whine your oppoenent into submission by repeatedly stating how terrible your list is?
Perhaps this is why statistical data from tournaments, that GW themselves use for determining army balance, conclusively show that O&G's perform absolutely abysmally? Maybe if tournament games went for longer then O&G players would have a better chance of whining their opponents into submission? 2 hours of whining is clearly not enough to break your standard tournament player. ;)


I'll tell you what sucks - doom divers. ridiculasly accurate cavalry death on a stick.
Mmm, gotta love those flying fanatics. :D


Heres my question- does anyone ever field a giant squig, if so, how and hows it go?
I haven't fielded one myself, but I personally see them as a pseudo-squig hopper unit (they function in pretty much the same way), to be taken when you've already run out of special slots. I imagine they could be decent at disrupting flankers and shooters, but I think the same points in hoppers would usually be a better choice.

Storak
06-07-2008, 07:51
I hear lots o people talk about that O&G sucks, but why is that so? (thanks if anyone can explain)

animosity can not be countered effectively in this edition. especially not on cavalry.

animosity doesn t seem to have been factored into most point costs as a disadvantage.

the positive effect of animosity can be turned into a disadvantage by your opponent. the bonus move is in the direction of the closest visible enemy.

our magic is weak but still has a worse miscast table. and suffers from animosity.

obvious errors in the books: giant squiqs and spiders don t cause fear. 3 goblin banners. price of big uns.

the most easy way to see how our troops perform, is by a comparison with other units. this isn t a perfect method, but fine as long as you keep in mind the rest of both armies.

orc boar boys vs black knights (or even vanilla empire knights)

orcs on foot vs empire swords. (they win the first round by 0.5 wounds, then perform exactly the same. but sufer from animosity, instead of having detachments!)

goblin wolf riders (seen as one of our best unist) vs dark riders: 14 points vs 17, with the elves simply being better in EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME.

hint: while you will find an occasional "O&G are fine" comment in the O&G topics, you should watch some O&G comments under otherdiscsussions.
basically they are considered to be fubar by nearly anyone.

Condottiere
06-07-2008, 08:46
I always thought that a Waagh Boss on a Wyvern was fairly good value for points spent.

Storak
06-07-2008, 10:00
I always thought that a Waagh Boss on a Wyvern was fairly good value for points spent.

he actually is.

at least if you don t mind leaving behind your Ld5 and Ld6 troops to care for themselves...

Dranthar
06-07-2008, 10:51
the most easy way to see how our troops perform, is by a comparison with other units. this isn t a perfect method, but fine as long as you keep in mind the rest of both armies.
This is just asking for trouble, but okay...


orc boar boys vs black knights (or even vanilla empire knights)
Orc Boar Boys aren't very good for their points. I'm not going to dispute that.


orcs on foot vs empire swords. (they win the first round by 0.5 wounds, then perform exactly the same. but sufer from animosity, instead of having detachments!)
Lets not forget the T4 for Orcs, making them more resilient than those swordsmen to enemy fire. Given that Swordsmen are widely lauded to be an excellent core unit, I'd say the Orcs compare quite favourably.


goblin wolf riders (seen as one of our best unist) vs dark riders: 14 points vs 17, with the elves simply being better in EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME.
Dark Riders are not 17 pts (not even when naked), and wolf riders are only 14 if you give them spears AND bows. If you give Dark Riders equivalent equipment then they turn out to be almost twice as costly. You're also comparing the gobbos to what is widely agreed to be the single best fast cavalry in the game
And even after all that, the goblins are still quite decent compared to their Dark Elf counterparts. Dark Riders may have a better statline across the board, but they're also much more expensive, to the point that you can get about 3 wolf rider units for every two Dark rider units. Cheaper means you get more units that are more expendible, which is very useful when you're trying to bait enemy units to set up flank charges, etc.
Oh, and lets not forget that more fast cavalry = better when you're trying to neutralise enemy shooting units.

While we're at it, why not compare a few other O&G units to their counterparts in other armies? Like perhaps;
Squig herds with elite 'light' infantry
Squig Hoppers with combat-skirmshers
Goblin Chariots with other chariots
Goblin artillery with other artillery
Fanatics with...?
Snotlings with other expendibles

In the above cases, the O&G units are either better than most of their counterparts and/or at least much cheaper than their counterparts for what you get.


hint: while you will find an occasional "O&G are fine" comment in the O&G topics, you should watch some O&G comments under other discsussions.
basically they are considered to be fubar by nearly anyone.
Strange, my own experience has been that O&G's are disliked by only a few (Heretic Burner and Shimmergloom being the ones that keep cropping up), while the rest seem to enjoy using them and/or find them to be at least halfway competitive.

Still if you want to see some other threads on O&Gs an easy way is to check out Heretic Burners post history - more than 80% of his posts have been related to how crap he says O&Gs are.

As for the whole animosity issue, I've yet to see it lose the game for me, and the WAAGH roll (6) has only messed me up once (I still won the game convincingly). So either my opponents are all absolutely hopeless at playing me, or animosity isn't the crippling disadvantage some people make it out to be.


at least if you don t mind leaving behind your Ld5 and Ld6 troops to care for themselves...
I think if you were to take a Warlord of Wyvern, then back him up with nothing but goblins (Orcs are Ld7) and NO other BigBosses to stay with the infantry, then you deserve what you get.

Condottiere
06-07-2008, 11:32
I've always observed that with O&G, you either win or lose spectacularly, and it usually depended on the dice roll. In friendly games, this generates a lot of excitement, but I'd say in tournaments, since the stakes are greater, opposing players pay a great deal more attention to disadvantaging O&Gs to their maximum.

Storak
06-07-2008, 12:08
Dark Riders are not 17 pts (not even when naked), and wolf riders are only 14 if you give them spears AND bows. If you give Dark Riders equivalent equipment then they turn out to be almost twice as costly. You're also comparing the gobbos to what is widely agreed to be the single best fast cavalry in the game

sorry i got this one wrong, 13 points is the price of the wolf rider with spears.
but 17 points will be the price of dark riders with the same equipment (currently it is 18 points)
looks like the "best fast cavalry in the game" just got a prioce drop...

oh, and dark elf spears will be 6 points. are they considered the best infantyry in the game as well?


And even after all that, the goblins are still quite decent compared to their Dark Elf counterparts. Dark Riders may have a better statline across the board, but they're also much more expensive, to the point that you can get about 3 wolf rider units for every two Dark rider units. Cheaper means you get more units that are more expendible, which is very useful when you're trying to bait enemy units to set up flank charges, etc.
Oh, and lets not forget that more fast cavalry = better when you're trying to neutralise enemy shooting units.

the ratio will be closer to 3 to 4 (and the elves might not need a musician..). and that is were animosity kicks in...
oh, and elven shooting will be very painful for those gobbos...


Lets not forget the T4 for Orcs, making them more resilient than those swordsmen to enemy fire. Given that Swordsmen are widely lauded to be an excellent core unit, I'd say the Orcs compare quite favourably.

the problem with T4 vs shooting (the real advantage of the orcs) is, that they are facing S4 shooting against empire.
swordsmen are considered to be good among empire infantry. i haven t heard a lot of complains about them being super strong from other armies. average is the term, that jumps to mind....


While we're at it, why not compare a few other O&G units to their counterparts in other armies? Like perhaps;
Squig herds with elite 'light' infantry
Squig Hoppers with combat-skirmshers
Goblin Chariots with other chariots
Goblin artillery with other artillery
Fanatics with...?
Snotlings with other expendibles

i am looking forward to any detailed comparison of these troops. bring it on!


In the above cases, the O&G units are either better than most of their counterparts and/or at least much cheaper than their counterparts for what you get.

Squigs are good in rather small groups. they wont win many battles for you. spear chukkas (the most used orcish artillery at the moment) are cheap and 2 per slot. like dwarfish ones...

Gobbo Lord
06-07-2008, 12:56
17 points will be the price of dark riders

Yet another Cavalry unit getting a points reduction, yey Boar Boyz


dark elf spears will be 6 points.

So for the same price as an orc boy with shield, dark elves will get +1 movement, a 6+ save and reroll misses in the first round of every combat (Every round against high elves)

Whilst the orc gets +1 toughness, a 5+ save, and suffer from animosity.

The Dark Elf is cleary better value but its not by a large margin (this could be argued in the fact that as movement is the most important aspect of warhammer the fact the elf moves one inch more every turn and 1 turn per game the orc wont move at all). This is a good thing considering the comparison between Orcs and Goblins and their counterpart units in Deamons and Vampire Counts were shocking to say the least (Boar Boyz with Black Knights, Black Orcs with Bloodletters/Plaugebearers, Character Abilities etc)

Shamfrit
06-07-2008, 13:24
You can get ALOT of boyz for 2k points.

You don't get that many elves I tell you now.

Storak
06-07-2008, 13:31
You can get ALOT of boyz for 2k points.

You don't get that many elves I tell you now.

oh, ratmen aren t good at math, methinks.

how many more 6 point orcs (choppa and shield) than 6 point elves (spear and light armor) can i get for 2000 points?

call in the council, some calculations must be done...

Storak
06-07-2008, 13:39
So for the same price as an orc boy with shield, dark elves will get +1 movement, a 6+ save and reroll misses in the first round of every combat (Every round against high elves)

Whilst the orc gets +1 toughness, a 5+ save, and suffer from animosity.

well, the orcs get S4 on the first turn of combat.

but the outcome is similar to that vs empire swordsmen: orcs win first round by about 0.5 wounds and lose all other ones...

Heretic Burner
06-07-2008, 18:21
Of course that totally discounts the fact that both the Empire troops and certainly the DE troops will easily dictate what combats occur due to their massive mobility advantage. Also of note is that 0.5 difference only occurs when using all of the greenskin advantages such as choppa bonus (ignoring their crippling animosity disadvantage) while discarding Empire's significant advantages (in particular detachments).

The relatively average Empire swordsmen are clearly a better value than orcs. The fantastic DE spearmen are vastly better. As for goblins, the sad truth is they are completely blown out by even orcs let alone DE spearmen or Empire swordsmen.

Now I can't fault the designers for creating a DE book that is far more powerful than O&G, after all it makes no sense balancing it against the very worst army book in the game. I can fault them for choosing not to address what is obviously the most broken book in the game and not making them the highest priority for revision.

Shamfrit
06-07-2008, 18:30
Yes Storak, because a Dark Elf army with 80 Spearmen is all mighty!

When you factor in the fact that most DE armies will be elite based with very few core choices because Witch Elves and the like are so good, having Core Units so cheap isn't going to swing it.

Spearmen = Hitting on 3, wounding on 5, 5+ Save. (Which becomes 6 due to Str 4.)

Orc = hitting on 4, wounding on 3, 4+ save.

They have re-roll to HIT, which is a good chance of hitting as is, not to wound.

Orcs comes off as the better here...

This argument is tired, isn't going to be resolved by either side and will rage through Warseer, by the same select few until the end of days. If you want something done about it, take it to Games Workshop. I am perfectly happy with the Orc & Goblin army book, it's fun, and yes, it's a little 'damaged' but I'm pulling more wins than losses against more experienced and 'balanced and broken' army lists so, although I seem to be in the minority, there is little left to be said. I'm not going continue defending something because certain people insist on a continuous, banal onslaught that is immune to any sort of logic, reason or sense of fun.

Oh noes! 17% this, 6 of that!

Try playing Skaven against a fear causing terror bomb army, now I might be able to agree with you.

Canadian_Khan
06-07-2008, 19:08
All I see here is a bunch of guys who keeps whining, and whining, and whining!

Are you guys completaly unable to PLAY? My O&G either demolishes everything on the tables or gets annihilated... so?

By constantly reading more and more complaints about how their armies is soooooo underpowered... I have questioned myself often... why do does guys still play the armies they so intangabely hate and dispise? I have once played empire, and hated their style of play... guess what... I sold them on ebay! Got some money back and reinvested it in Dogs of War... that I am now sellong to make myself 2500pts of O&G...

I am pretty sure every people have a nifty good reason to complain about their army (like the way their army always gets destroyed by those d*mned Vampire Counts or High Elves of Skavens)

But I can tell one thing about the game of warhammer... as good as an army can be ( or as bad ). The head behind the miniatures also influence the game. If you ain't a good general, If you do not think like a general, you will achieve nothing, even with the most kicka$$ combos...

This tactica section is beggining to like like a " I hate my orcs " thing...

Sorry, but that had to come out....


Now, for the giant squig question: the night goblin big boss on giant squig is on every game of mine... well equiped, that squid hits harder than a wolf ( still has to reach... but 3d6 is normally enough in my strategy ). Add the sneaky skewerer and the Bauble... and it becomes a general killer, I'm telling you...

Shamfrit
06-07-2008, 19:14
I'm with you on that Khan, all points.

I don't like the Squig, I prefer a Gigantic Spider with Triksy Trinket and the Bauble with a Spear Gobbo. Same job, different mount I suppose.

Mozzamanx
06-07-2008, 19:32
Sorry, going off-topic a bit to address something.

This is a Tactica thread. Yes, the Orcs have problems. Yes, these can affect the game's outcome. Therefore, we need tactics to get around these shortcomings. Instead of complaining about something, give a possible solution to it or listen to other peoples advice. The whole point of these threads is to use knowledge and ability as a general to fix these problems and come off on top, not just to find the problem and scream at it until the offending army gets a remake.

Ok, back on topic now. I don't like the big squig, since its movement is so random and not particularly fast. I would either take a nice cheap wolf, or spend a bit to get a chariot.

Urgat
06-07-2008, 21:04
I don't like the big squig, since its movement is so random and not particularly fast. I would either take a nice cheap wolf, or spend a bit to get a chariot.


What I don't like about it is that it cannot join hopper units. This would instantly fix most of its problems. As it is, it just turns your boss/warboss into a very easy and fragile target.

Storak
06-07-2008, 21:47
Yes Storak, because a Dark Elf army with 80 Spearmen is all mighty!

this is exactly the main problem. people assume that 80 orcs make a good army. think about it!


When you factor in the fact that most DE armies will be elite based with very few core choices because Witch Elves and the like are so good, having Core Units so cheap isn't going to swing it.

again: this is the problem. they have BETTER units to spend their points on.


Spearmen = Hitting on 3, wounding on 5, 5+ Save. (Which becomes 6 due to Str 4.)

Orc = hitting on 4, wounding on 3, 4+ save.

They have re-roll to HIT, which is a good chance of hitting as is, not to wound.

Orcs comes off as the better here...

you forgot to mention, that they have an extra rank of attacks...
the result is as described by me: orcs win their charge round of combat by slightly below 0.5 wounds. they lose all following rounds.


Now, for the giant squig question: the night goblin big boss on giant squig is on every game of mine... well equiped, that squid hits harder than a wolf ( still has to reach... but 3d6 is normally enough in my strategy ). Add the sneaky skewerer and the Bauble... and it becomes a general killer, I'm telling you...

the night goblin has WS4 and S4. even with an extra -3 to saves, he will need some serious luck to cause a single wound on anything but an elf.
if the enemy is in a unit, charging them with the squig alone is a horrible idea. and coordinating a charge with the random hop isn t easy. if the enmy is riding a monstrous flyer, good luck catching him with the squig.
the squig has Ld3. good luck on that monster reaction table.

the bauble isn t a great character killer either. the S6 hits are distributed like shooting. looks like the fun effect was more important, again...

let me sum this up: after a lucky boing roll, you are in combat with the enmy lord. he doesn t challenge you with a champion or kill you because he has first strike. then you cause 1.5 S4 hits with a reduced armor save. 1.5 S5 hits by the squig and possibly 1 S6 hit by the bauble.
if this tends to kill your opponents lords, then they are doing something wrong. the suicide attack only cost you 120 points, by the way...

edit: rider will be immune to psychology because of squig, so he doesn t fear elves at least.... (but the spider rider, whom i would consider the better choice will...)

Dranthar
07-07-2008, 02:53
This is a Tactica thread. Yes, the Orcs have problems. Yes, these can affect the game's outcome. Therefore, we need tactics to get around these shortcomings. Instead of complaining about something, give a possible solution to it or listen to other peoples advice.
You're absolutely right. This thread has become way, way off topic and I think it's time we quit the "O&G's suck" discussion and started talking about how to best use what we've got.

So here's a question from me;
In my own experience, O&G armies tend to be defined by how their special/rare slots are filled. So I'm curious as to how others fill their slots?

My 2250pt army list generally has the following;

Squig Herd
Squig Hoppers
2x Spear Chukkas
Rock Lobba
Giant
Doom Diver

It's an all-goblin army, BTW. The squigs and giant are there to help deal with fear/terror-causing units. I've found the squigs offensive power to be excellent for the points, especially the herd, which often tends to pile into a unit, cause immense damage with their S5 attacks and then explode once they lose combat, taking out decent chunks of my opponents units with them.
The Giant is an excellent tarpit, and he's useful even against shooting-armies. In such instances I keep him on a flank along with my squigs. It minimises the shooting coming at the giant and it also keeps the nearby squigs (who are often far more damaging) relatively safe from harm.

The artillery is there for softening up enemy units. Goblins aren't good at fighting one-to-one so if I can strip away some of my opponents static combat resolution (or at least lessen the potential attacks coming at me) I stand a better chance at holding them off once I reach combat. A decent amount of artillery (plus a few fanatics) also helps keep those pesky dragons a little more honest. ;)

Canadian_Khan
07-07-2008, 05:55
I fill my special/rare slots, in a 2000pts game... like this:

Special: Squig Hoppers ( 10 of them right une the center of the army... normally, my opponent will think..."wait, this looks too easy... there must be something in there..." Which is exactly what I want them to do. ( I happen to do the same thing with a unit of 30 NG spearmen without anything but a musician... people always think there are 2 - 3 fanatics... I usually get the flank with the gobbos with that... )

Boar chariot...1 ... plus de one of my general that doesn't count... right next to the squigs... I won't tell why here, but it include impact hit and a flank attack from my orcs...

Spear Chukka (2)... I only have 20 NG archers... so, it's turns out to do a pretty shooting job... and cheap they are



Rare

Doom Diver (1)... Because it makes me laugh, mostly... but so far, in two games, i've done well enough with it to take 3 wounds out of a Sun Dragon, provoke a panic test ( failed ) in a unit of swordmaster AND Hitting a white lion chariot ( ok, I was aiming at the Spearmen.... so?)

The rest is core, or hero... so that make it 608pts of Special and rare...

And that works!

Canadian_Khan
07-07-2008, 06:05
What I don't like about it is that it cannot join hopper units. This would instantly fix most of its problems. As it is, it just turns your boss/warboss into a very easy and fragile target.


And guess what... that's what I want him to do... by the time the opponent looks at that squig, my Warboss Chariot advance... and so is the rest of my army.

The giant squig is there to sacrifice itself to the almighty Gork ( or Mork... )...

And I don't agree on something...

Let's say a Big Boss on giant squig... WS 4 St4... with the squig, mine cost approx 119pts...

Goblin: Hits on 4+ most of the time... than wounds on 4+ on lotsa thing... 5+ if you badly chose you combat... with -4 armour save, let's just say you just have your ward save left...

Squig: WS4... St5... hits on 4+ most of the time... on 3+ or 4+ to wound... the extra damage here.

Let's say you do not actually kill your opponent ( ALWAYS challenge... in that you MUST place the hero right in front of your squig ).. he attacks back... and KILLS the poor night goblins... KABOOM with the Bauble... D6 S6 in more or less wounding on ... 2+... 3+ with big toughness... so at least 1 or 2 wounds... so the goblin, when it explode... with probably make it's point (120 or so!) and often more. Plus, it's only ws4...one of the worst hero of the game...it's expandable... IMHO...

Anyways, that's how I see it... works for me, but I guess that depends of strategies...

woytek
07-07-2008, 09:34
My special and rare choices in 2250:

6 Savage orc boar boyz (big'uns): They rape everything and have done very well each battle.
4 Spear chukka's: great cheap warmachines, I take four to be sure I hit something
Either black orcs or a boar chariot

A giant and if I have the points a doom diver: Giant is a great missile magnet which lets my wyvern be safe(r). Doom diver is great against knights with a heavy armour save.

Velsharoon
07-07-2008, 10:51
Playing vs high elves atm, 1000 points

Orc Boss on Boar
2 NG shamans 1 Dispel Scroll

40 NG Musician, Fanatic
30 NG Musician Fanatic

18 Boyz w Choppas and Full Command

4 Squig Herd in a unit
Orc Chariot

4 trolls

The trolls last night were epic, routing a unit of spearmen and munching on his mage which they overran. Then they got stupid as they were far from the general and walked off the board :(

I just realised as I typed this that i tested for animosity on the chariot and your not meant to bugger (second game of warhammer in 7 years or so)

I threw 40 NG and the squig herd at a unit of 15 elves, They then proceeded to do no wounds and run away, the squigs ofc going wild and killing some spearmen \o/

This and various other funniness is what made the game for me, i love the way these guys are so unpredictable and that infighting can screw up your battleplan, or make you improvise and actually end up better off. Sure they probably arent competitive, and as my opponent refines his army list im gonna struggle, but for the sheer fun factor O&G is were its at

So anyway having said that I have found the squig herd to be useless, only thing its good for is to go wild :\

cos of ASF they just dont get to fight back. Better off replacing them with soemthing else?

semersonp
07-07-2008, 11:21
@ 2250

special:

6 savage orc boys
+full command, spears, shields, nogg's banner

2 spear chukkas

7 squig hoppers

1 wolf chariot

rare:

1 giant

2 pump wagons

...

with all this i get:

an insanely hitty flank cavalry (37 attacks on a charge should i wish)

cheap artillery for use against rnf, bloodthirsters, steam tanks, knights, dragons, etc

skirmishing death machines that can go anywhere on the table and my opponent cannot predict where they will be or what direction they will go in next... i just love setting these little guys opposite woods and letting them fly about with impunity :)

an 18" charge range chariot thats as cheap as dirt and if it strikes does S5 hits... if i lose it, o well... if it does some damage, great... plus it keeps fast cav on one entire flank essentially limited in their movement...

a giant who causes terror, usually draws missle fire like a magnet and once in combat can take on entire units by himself and deny a rank bonus at the same time... plus he can stuff things into a bag...

pump wagons... best bang for you buck in the army... i've seen them take down a unit of eternal guard, chaos knights, star dragons... the list goes on... anyway, not only do they give you a great chance to see what your opponents deployment is going to be like 'cuz they can be thrown down anywhere, they ramble around like your squigs and have no restriction on what direction they take off in... perfect scout/gyrocopter/scorpion/tunnel team etc defender... and they do so, so much more... i just love the little maniancs...

but yeah, those are my slot choices @ 2250...

Storak
07-07-2008, 15:26
Let's say a Big Boss on giant squig... WS 4 St4... with the squig, mine cost approx 119pts...

Goblin: Hits on 4+ most of the time... than wounds on 4+ on lotsa thing... 5+ if you badly chose you combat... with -4 armour save, let's just say you just have your ward save left...

Squig: WS4... St5... hits on 4+ most of the time... on 3+ or 4+ to wound... the extra damage here..

both of them have only 3 attacks. you are lucky if they cause 2 wounds on a general.


Let's say you do not actually kill your opponent ( ALWAYS challenge... in that you MUST place the hero right in front of your squig ).. he attacks back... and KILLS the poor night goblins... KABOOM with the Bauble... D6 S6 in more or less wounding on ... 2+... 3+ with big toughness... so at least 1 or 2 wounds... so the goblin, when it explode... with probably make it's point (120 or so!) and often more. Plus, it's only ws4...one of the worst hero of the game...it's expandable... IMHO...

the challenge will be answered by a champion normally. the bauble does damage, that is distributed like SHOOTING. it will kill 3 empire swordmen, most likely.

if the general is not in a unit, but riding a flyer, you were very lucky to charge him. still the bauble will distribute damage between him and his monstrous mount.

and it will only do damage, when your enemy decides to kill the goblin. he could of course simply attack (and perhaps kill) the squig. and run down the gobbo (Ld6, remember?).

sorry, but the only thing that the squig hero might successfully kill is a wizard. and your opponent made a big error, if he allows you to charge him.

warlord hack'a
07-07-2008, 15:33
I am going to keep it shoirt this time: anybody comparing armies on a unit by unit basis without looking at the whole army picture is wasting his or her time. Okay, it is nice to compare some units just for the sake of it and sometimes the findings are surprising, but what matters in the end if the overall picture of the army.

For example, a few posts ago people compared DE to O&G, and the comclusion sort of was that O&G suck as DE spearmen outclass Orcs and dark riders outclass wolfriders.

Now I ask you: what can the DE do against small blocks of snotlings completely messing up the DE movement by boldly stepping in front of approaching DE units? What can DE do to stop their first charge from being stopped in it's tracks by emerging fanatics? What can De do against the dead cheap chukka's taking out their expensive witch elves, knights or warhydra?

Only when looking at the whole army can you make judgement about if they suck or not and yes, compared to 6th edition O&G got a bit nerfed (due to animosity not being quellable anymore) but they also got an improved choppa and thus better orcs.

What happened however was that other new armybooks got considerably stronger, so it is only by comparison that O&G got 'weaker'.

Storak
07-07-2008, 15:38
My special and rare choices in 2250:

6 Savage orc boar boyz (big'uns): They rape everything and have done very well each battle.
4 Spear chukka's: great cheap warmachines, I take four to be sure I hit something
Either black orcs or a boar chariot

A giant and if I have the points a doom diver: Giant is a great missile magnet which lets my wyvern be safe(r). Doom diver is great against knights with a heavy armour save.

sounds like a very rasonable choice. against shooty armies, squigs might do better than the savage boars, or don t make them big'uns. they will need 1 or two units of gobbo wolf support.

Gobbo Lord
07-07-2008, 15:49
In 2000 points i use

6 Orc Boar Boyz, full command and the War Banner

12 Black Orcs, standard, musician and Gorks Waaagh Banner

Squig Herd, 5 teams, 3 ranks of Squigs, 2 of Goblins

Orc Boar Chariot with an extra crew member.

Squigs are awsome if they get the charge, if they get charged they die so easily, and they are useless against High Elves as they always get attacked first. Against High Elves stock up on Chariots and Characters in Chariots (If you are made of money of course)

lparigi34
07-07-2008, 15:54
Well,

It's become Warseer's traditional wisdom the powerful charge those Savage Boar Boyz can deliver, particularly Big'Uns. Keep them!

I used to put a Savage Orc Hero in it, but now I rather put him in a Chariot and use it as a Sidewinder Missile.

Chuckkas rock, specially against ranked well armoured guys (Brettonnians).

Pyrofighter
07-07-2008, 18:38
I find myself to still have problems with a gun line, i just cant reach them and die before i can make some nice punches...
I tried fast cav, and was happy when i bought wolf riders, but they couldt last 2 rounds and diddnt got far. Anyone got some tips? Im desperate cause i get beaten all the time :(
I still like to play and its not only for winning (it would be nice to kick the buts of those DE! :D

Also the rock lobber is quite useless versus a gunline ?

Gobbo Lord
07-07-2008, 20:29
Against Gunlines you need to invest in some fast cavalry and some nice juicy targets. Wolf Riders should work wonders, especially against Dark Elves. Try to get flank charges on their Repeater Crossbow units on turn three, Twoo turns to get in posistion, third to charge. Usually you will have to only kill two elves to cancel any attacks back and elves die easy. You need to hit the flanks hard and still move up the centre with your main blocks of troops. Wolf Chariots are excelent at this, charging on turn two.

If they shoot your troops they will have two turns before your on them from the flanks. and if they try to take out the flanks then your main block is unharmed.

Another option is to put something your opponent percieves as a large threat on one of the flanks. Giants are excelent at this and will draw a lot of fire whilst not taking many wounds. 3 or 4 trolls are also good for this, but they need to be close to the general to be effective. The thing that make these two units good at this is they move fast and are very strong, so opponents often try to take them out quick leaving your army to march forward unhindered.

lparigi34
07-07-2008, 20:56
My approach #1 // The Meat Shield.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Against gunlines send forward some meat shield. I use for this purpose:

Big/cheap Gobbo units (if it is cannon fodder avoid any upgrade or fanatics, except for musician). Remember to minimize the chance of being affected by cascading panic.

Trolls (three of this w/regen get a lot of attention). I often used giant for this too, but then I found it too expensive for this, 3 regenerating trolls do a lot better.

Pump wagons, always two and close to each other. Nice & unreliable and for some reasons feared (we'll, they can do some damage when they get to charge)

Spider units (deploy and move terrain wise) and wolves. I use this smaller units to charge warmachines, but not units that can S&S, as they panic easily.

Larger units of Wolves (10/15, only Musician) might take some pounding and still make it, but the low Ld is always a liability. If you have them shielding a Boar unit containing the Orc general, borrowing from his Ld, then that's another story...

So bad there's no thing such as frenzied wolves!!!

TACTICS.

Move in tandem all the cannon fodder towards the line. If you have several units, there always be the question... dividing Vs concentrating. Avoid the temptation of moving expensive units toward the line before you are close enough (no berzerk Boar Boyz please). If he shoots down all the fodder, the rest of your units will be already close enough.

Use your supporting fire (if any) to decimate the infantry units that defend the gun line. It is a temptation to shoot the line itself, but you'll need to invest in early turns to decimate his combat resolution advantages for the latter rounds.

Someones have celebrated killing my Trolls or making the Gobbos run away, never realizing they just opened ways for more capable units, usually also capable to handle S&S casualties nicely, to make their way to the main line.

My approach #2 // I'll never/ever run from you
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Straightforward, the almost only thing that will not have to panic if shot.

Plenty of savage stuff... few Savage Boar Boyz units (be sure to make on of them Big'Uns), savage Hero on chariot, savage Lord on Wyvern if you feel like, and so on.

Shield with Wolves, march forward, Wolves usually will panic, else move them taking advantage of your free reforms to get them off the charging paths.

Savages will take S&S casualties, for sure, but they are ItP, so you'll complete the charges anyway. In average from my 6 guys unit taking on DE crossbows 20 man (60 shoots) (60 x 2/6 x 2/6 x 0.5 x 5/6) only 3.22 will make it, but usually still win the combat by a couple of wounds.

But my 2 savage units are usually 10,so my odds are quite different.

This tactic may sound odd for some, but I've used it more than the classic-er meat & shield to a great success.

Only one advice to this one, get used to see real bloody battles with almost no units on the table at the end. You'll get heavy casualties while being shot at, latter the balance tilts back and you crush'em in CC. The final result you shall see.

Pyrofighter
07-07-2008, 21:56
Thank you very much! How big should the cannon fodder be? 2x 20 units of night gobbos? I really think this could work since my opponent always thinks i have fanatics! I also have a orc boar chariot that the enemy quite fears, shall i put him between the 2 gobbo units?



----- -----
XXX O XXX
BBB BBB

Shall i use a formation like the one above? And were should i put my hero? in a unit of orcs? And would it be usefull to use orc big uns? Because if they make it in combat they kill those point ears very fast :D

--- is fast cav
XXX Meat shield of gobbos
BBB Blocks of orcs n'stuff
O Orc boar chariot

Gobbo Lord
07-07-2008, 22:04
Dont use that set up. One failed animosity test in your fast cavalry and thats thee units that can not move for one turn. Plus if the night goblns make it to the dark elf line, the orcs behind them will have to manuvre around them to get into battle.

Avian
07-07-2008, 23:33
Thank you very much! How big should the cannon fodder be? 2x 20 units of night gobbos? I really think this could work since my opponent always thinks i have fanatics! I also have a orc boar chariot that the enemy quite fears, shall i put him between the 2 gobbo units?

<snip>

Shall i use a formation like the one above? And were should i put my hero? in a unit of orcs? And would it be usefull to use orc big uns? Because if they make it in combat they kill those point ears very fast :D
I have an article on my website which you might find useful: Greenskin Battle Tactics (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/greenskin_battle_tactics.php)

Urgat
08-07-2008, 00:47
Oooook, tonight, two battles, I got crushed twice thanks to some horrible rolls (always happens whevener I decide to field orcs in the army), which made me realize that I'm still not a good player. Why? Coz I really got screwed by these rolls, in a tactical way, so, advices based on tonight:

Point discussed tonight: "beware stupidity! make room"

Picture a large unit of marauders (with aspiring champion) going for my trolls (4, stone kind), each unit facing the other. I have my big unit of 23 orcs with the general on boar on the right side of the trolls. on the left of the marauders, a large building, like 8" away in front of my orcs.
A nice, isolated position, no reinforcement can reach the marauders in time, my trolls will outcharge them if they don't come, and whatever unit they charge, they'll be flanked by the other on the next turn. That's the setup, it's ideal.
...Is it?
And then... stupidity. Twice. Thank you for your help, warboss. So the stupid trolls move forward 6" in two turns, coming too close from the building for my orcs to be able to get through.
Trolls are charged, but they make a whooping nine kills, losing only two wounds (good ol' trolls, that was the only good roll of the night for me), I cross my fingers, but the damn marauders didn't break. So heck, next turn I decide to have my general charge out of the unit so it (the unit) can move in the building next (yes, because things ain't going well on the other side, see a few lines bellow). But no, the orcs squabble just before I can.
Trolls then lose (lost 4 wounds, then only killed one marauder), get run over, etc etc.
So, as I said, on the other side of the building, my fanatics have managed to wipe out my squig hoppers (6 hits, 6 kills, awesome. They had decided not too move the turn before because otherwise they'd have either flank-charged the knights on the other side of yet another building, or they would have flank charged the chaos warrios a bit further away, hindered- till that fateful moment- by two whirling fanatics; so they just let the fanatics come at them...), the chaos warriors (plus general), now free to get to my goblin blockade, swiftly wipe them with the help of the spawn which triggered the release of the fanatic (and took one, but didn't get wounded, of course).
Overrun right into the flank of my orcs.
In two turns, my orcs jumped from a very advantagous situation to being themselve taken into a pincer.
Just because of two failed stupidity checks.
Morale of the story: ALWAYS leave room on the side of your trolls so you can get past them.

As usual, though, my wolves were brilliant, wiping out a unit of mounted marauders with their bows, and making the unit of knights run all over the place (until they rolled a 5 to flee toward the end, that is).
Oh, and bombing chaos knights with spear chukkas, the itty ring and gaze of gork would be very efficient if the goddamn spear chukkas decided to wound (they hit about half the time, but then, 1 to wound, always. God I hate them).

lparigi34
08-07-2008, 02:29
lolz!!!! Thatīs the typical Orcy General history nowadays...

I will list the mos common things you should be prepared for if you play O&G, please feel free to add.

1) The wolves unit shielding my Savage Orcs is more likely to fail its animosity check than any other unit, so I must have B plans in case.

2) Trolls will fail stupidity the moment when you need them most, even if lead by Gorbad (Ld10).

3) The giant will fall, be faithful on this one.

4) Fanatics will kill more units from your own side than from the other.

5) Boar Boyz led by Black Orcs will crumble from failed animosities.

6) Sometimes Night Gobbos will defeat tougher and more expensive/armored dwarves.

7) You'll never get to charge ranked unit with the Porko's Pigstikka.

8) Nobody will cast spells that affect your Stone Trolls.

Storak
08-07-2008, 13:58
Oooook, tonight, two battles, I got crushed twice thanks to some horrible rolls (always happens whevener I decide to field orcs in the army), which made me realize that I'm still not a good player. Why? Coz I really got screwed by these rolls, in a tactical way, so, advices based on tonight:

well, many of the problems described in this nice report simply are real problem with the army, which are had to avoid. for example the orcish deployment zone will always be pretty full, leading to blocked units by small mistakes or bad rolls. (lost my first game after return due to a badly deployed boltthrower splitting my lines...)

the difference between animosity M4 low Ld troops on large bases and M5 no animosity small bases troops is pretty massive. animosity often will lose big parts of your first two moves, which typically are march moves. even if a unit does not directly hinder the other ones, it might force carefull or different moves on other units, as you need space to deploy the slow mover or have to "hold back" one flank.


Thank you very much! How big should the cannon fodder be? 2x 20 units of night gobbos? I really think this could work since my opponent always thinks i have fanatics! I also have a orc boar chariot that the enemy quite fears, shall i put him between the 2 gobbo units?



----- -----
XXX O XXX
BBB BBB

Shall i use a formation like the one above? And were should i put my hero? in a unit of orcs? And would it be usefull to use orc big uns? Because if they make it in combat they kill those point ears very fast :D

--- is fast cav
XXX Meat shield of gobbos
BBB Blocks of orcs n'stuff
O Orc boar chariot

i don t think this is a good idea.
look at it this way: you are advancing against a gunline for 3 turns. every turn the goblin units together have a 1/3 (simplification of two times 1/6 which is actually a different thing) chance to suffer from animosity. this will cost you the move of the unit behind as well. over three turns this means 2 units wont move once. the following orcs have a 1/3 chance to fail animosity as well, leaving you with another 1 unit failing to move.
putting black orcs chars in the following orc units might lead to them killing orcs while their path is blocked by goblins anyway. (black orc troops might lose their best advantage in a similar way) putting black orc chars in the leading goblin unist is a rather risky tactic.

while in this formation, your troops won t benefit from a waagh or we ll show them result either!
having multiple orc units behind each other means stacking the bad animosity effects up. the odds get pretty horrible fast. having 3 orcs units behind each other basically garantees that the last unit wont achieve anything.
notice that for a "we ll show them" result, the units at the front and the ones at the back will usually have different targets. large targets or artillery on hills for units at the back mostly. this might lead to some absurd movements.

one of the few clever tricks with O&G armies that really work is to deploy fast cav behind your infantry and snake them through a tiny gap during the first move. (can t remember where i got this from. Avian most likely?)

the obvious meat shield for your orcs could be snotlings, who don t suffer from animosity (i don t like them though..)

Malendil
08-07-2008, 16:25
What is the general consensus on Giants? Are they a permanent fixture in your army, or do you use them depending on the opponent you are facing (i.e. one with very little shooting)?

After examining them they seem very fragile although they have 6 wounds at T5, they have no save whatsoever, leaving them completely open to be shot at and killed before they reach the enemy. I believe someone posted above that if that is their purpose, (avian might have said this on his webpage) then trolls are much more effective at being pin-coushins.

Thoughts?

lparigi34
08-07-2008, 19:19
...the obvious meat shield for your orcs could be snotlings, who don t suffer from animosity (i don t like them though..)

Ufa!!!

I've been missing this, slap me. I'll go and review the O&G rules, did not they suffer from "small" rule or simmilar?

We'll you can see how much I do like them (I have like 10 unassembled bases). However, if what you say is true, I will revise all of my tactics... can picture Snotling shielding Gobbos shielding Orcs... I'll do my homework, battle test it and will be back to you soon. :evilgrin:

warlord hack'a
09-07-2008, 07:13
snots are great! for 40 points you get a small unit of 2 bases, very manouverable, does not suffer from animosity and are IMMUNE TO PSYCHOLOGY.

So basically they go where you want them to go, period. They can march 6 inch forward then wheel 2 inch, completely messing up the enemy lines if they charge the snots or blocking enemy movement if they do not charge the snots. This alone is worth far more than the 40 points they cost.

I put one 2-base block in front of each of my svg orc units on foot which keeps the svg orcs from either charging unwanted things or stumbling forward a number of inches when animosity is failed.

In short: snots rule. Which is why I said: look at the whole army before you make judgements on who is best.

Dranthar
09-07-2008, 07:58
Snotlings are incredible! 40 points gets you a very effective charge redirector that can seriously mess with your opponents plans.

On more than one occasion they've even finished off enemy units (although they were often depleted to start with).

I generally take 2 units of 2x snotling bases in every game I play, and they've yet to disapoint. ;)

As for meatshields, the only units that might need them are the cavalry, chariots, black orcs and maybe savage orcs. The rest of the army is either sneaky enough not to worry much (eg. fast cavalry), or so cheap that you're almost always better off just spending the extra points on bigger units.

Giants
I've found giants to be very good in my goblin army. Against armies with minimal shooting they tend to be very effective at either beating tough units to a pulp or just holding things off until I can deal with them properly.

Against shooting armies they still have their uses. By putting them on a flank I can keep them relatively safe from the worst of my opponents shooting, and I often surround him with the rest of my hard-hitting (but vulnerable) units (eg. squigs). Often my opponents will target what they can on the giant, thus keeping my squigs quite safe. Even without armour and 'only' T5, he can still take a bit of a beating, so unless he cops a cannon to the head then he should at least keep the fire off your other units for 2-3 turns, depending on what he's facing.

Urgat
09-07-2008, 11:05
snots are great! for 40 points you get a small unit of 2 bases, very manouverable, does not suffer from animosity and are IMMUNE TO PSYCHOLOGY.

So basically they go where you want them to go, period. They can march 6 inch forward then wheel 2 inch, completely messing up the enemy lines if they charge the snots or blocking enemy movement if they do not charge the snots. This alone is worth far more than the 40 points they cost.

I put one 2-base block in front of each of my svg orc units on foot which keeps the svg orcs from either charging unwanted things or stumbling forward a number of inches when animosity is failed.

In short: snots rule. Which is why I said: look at the whole army before you make judgements on who is best.

I don't like them. Sure they have everything you said. They're also stupidely expensive. 20 points for that? They're worthless in any combat, using them as shields will only lead to them being wiped out and the enemy having a further pursuit or irresistible charge movement, having them flank will just give extra victory points (probably way more than the removed ranks and flank bonus). Stubborn on their pityful Ld is a joke that only brings up their cost.
I can only see three uses for them:
1) holding quarter of tables
2) protecdting your shamans (thanks to Avian for that one, I never thought of that by myself)
3) screening for savage orcs boyz

I really want to give the buggers a chance, but two bases, that's 13 goblins...


Giants: they're nice, but I tend to prefer my trolls, which will deal much more damage to most uints, and can take the sort of beating that would kill a giant in one turn, and just shrug it off. That plus the psychological factor of using a rare slot for just one mini :p (yeh, I'm odd, but I prefer a good fat unit... and trolls make for very good fat units, so... :p).
That being said, terror+stubborn on their high Ld is awesome.

kroq'gar
09-07-2008, 11:45
Urgat, thats multi wounds a base that are immune to phyc... no panic... no terror... and NO ANOMOSITY.

I always wanted to try a hoarde of them.. with two giants...

warlord hack'a
09-07-2008, 12:56
and what will those 13 goblins add that you do not alreayd have? I will tell you what one snot block of 2 bases will add though:

- a deployment choice, so you can place your important units later than you opponent
- a charge redirecter. You WANT the enemy to charge and overrun your snotblock as you will have set up a countercharge for that
- flexibility: if the enemy has a lot of knights that can kill your units on the charge (blood knights e.g.) then a snotblock of 40 points can easily ruin the day of this 400+ point unit. If the enemy however does not have a lot of things that are dangerous on the charge then you can put the snots to the side and use them to take a table quarter.
- block part of an enemies charge: getting combocharged is a pain, but if your snots can block one of the enemy combo chargers then you can prevent this combo charge. E.g. I used one snotblock to block the paths of no less than 3 ogre units once, so his 4th ogre unit has the choice of either chargin my orcs on their own or not charging and being charged in my next turn. One ogre block will lose to fully ranked spear armed svg orcs, so that put him in a tight spot..

once again, do not lookat the individual unit, look at how this unit can interact with the rest of your force to judge if they are expensive or not..

Shimmergloom
09-07-2008, 13:26
- a deployment choice, so you can place your important units later than you opponent/[quote]

You should already have that. They are 40pts, basic goblin blocks are only 60pts, so are basic wolf rider units. And both are more useful in more situations. And pump wagons and single trolls are also only 40pts. If you have 40pts to use, use it on those things. Not snots.

[quote]
- a charge redirecter. You WANT the enemy to charge and overrun your snotblock as you will have set up a countercharge for that

There's already a ton of things that do that and do it better. Such as spiders, wolves and minimum goblin units, because they can flee and make his units fail their charge, then rally later hopefully.

snots just sit there, get ripped apart and lose you 40pts while the enemy gets a free overrun move that will send it into more of your units. If you're going to set up a countercharge with greenskins, then you need units pretty much within 8 inches or less to be assured of pulling it off. An average overrun on 2 dices is 7-8 inches. They can hit your countercharge units pretty easily.



- flexibility: if the enemy has a lot of knights that can kill your units on the charge (blood knights e.g.) then a snotblock of 40 points can easily ruin the day of this 400+ point unit. If the enemy however does not have a lot of things that are dangerous on the charge then you can put the snots to the side and use them to take a table quarter.

They aren't going to ruin his day at all. He'll wipe the unit out in one combat and he doesn't have to overrun if he doesn't want to. If he does, he'll overrun 3D6 and into more of your units. If you are at an angle then he can overrun 3D6 and probably be out of your charge arcs. Or he can sit there and be charged and rip your countercharge units apart with his super unit.



- block part of an enemies charge: getting combocharged is a pain, but if your snots can block one of the enemy combo chargers then you can prevent this combo charge. E.g. I used one snotblock to block the paths of no less than 3 ogre units once, so his 4th ogre unit has the choice of either chargin my orcs on their own or not charging and being charged in my next turn. One ogre block will lose to fully ranked spear armed svg orcs, so that put him in a tight spot..

But again, this seems useful, but the other unit should either wipe out the snot unit or break it from combat and then likely wind up in combat with the unit they wanted to combo charge anyway. And if they do, they'll know to fight the snot combat first, so that they can then fight that 2nd combat with both units and get the extra combat out of the unit you tried to hold up with snots.

Snots have few uses. So I'm not saying they are useless. I just don't agree with most of those uses. Mainly from my experience(and I'm the only greenskin player I've ever known to ever use snots at all in 6th or 7th edition, I can even only ever remember seeing one pump wagon that wasn't my own).

- They are useful to charge empire detachments to prevent him from flanking you.

- You can use them to hold off gorgers, ambushers, miners, etc for just a little while to protect yoru war machines just a little longer.

- Form them 1 wide and 2-3 deep and shoot fanatics through them when someone charges the snots or gets within 8 inches of your night goblins. Keep the snots about 3 inches in front of your night goblins. Snot units 1 wide, 3 deep are almost 5 inches in depth. When an enemy comes within 1 inch of the snots(and they have to stop that far away unless charging) your fanatics are triggered.

You just then need to roll a 3 to make it to the snots, then the fanatic comes out 1 inch on the other side of the snots, which is into the enemy unit.

I've never tried to use them to babysit a shaman or just to hold a table corner. I consider that waste of points. In about the last 100 games I've played, I can only think of 1 or 2 instances where a table corner was the difference between a win and a loss. And both of those were really draws, but league rules were not allowing draws(which hurts greenskins immensely).

warlord hack'a
09-07-2008, 13:50
shimmergloom, I am sorry but I disagree with a lot of what you say and have own personal experience to prove it. I have done the math on overrunning and distances (and yes, blood knights do have to overrun since they are frenzied) and can set up my snots so that you have problem whether you overrun or not, guaranteed. I must say that my army is quite artillery heavy so against most enemy units that have chargers I have to worry about I am better at shooting so any delay is to my advantage.

The whole trick is to get the angles and distances just right and that is not so hard to do after a bit fo practise. A simple example: take one enemy knight unit that you have to worry about (so the more expensive than vanilla ones) and on your side one snot unit of 2 bases, one orc block and a support block of either a chariot or some night gobbos. This should equal out in points for those people that are interested in those kind of comparison.

Now the knights will most likely hover somewhere at 10-12 inch distance as they do not want you to backward shuffle and ruin another of their turns. The closer they are the better. Now march your snots 6 inch forward and wheel them 2 inch. They will be right in front of the knights (who of course will be at least 5 wide to max damage on the charge). The orcs wheel a bit so they are at slightly less than a 90 degree angle from the snot block and the support unit moves forwar and wheel a bit more so that the knights are in charge range if they stay where they are.

Now if he has frenzied knigths then he has to charge, will kill the snots, will overrun and end up in chargerange of your orcs 9if you angeld them right you have a 90% change of being able to reach them), if they are not frenzied they can charge and not overrun or not charge and manouver awkwardly. Unless they do the latter they will be charged in theri flank next turn by your unit. And in the meantime both your main units moved and can do other things, they are not trapped in thsi trap like that one knight unit is.

And trolls and pump wagons are great too, but pump wagons have random movement so are not reliable to go where you want them to go, and trolls suffer from stupidity and are not ItP so are also nto reliable to go where you want them to go. And what's more: they both use rare slots, which I prefer to spend on a doomdiver or two.

spiders, wolves etc can also block the enemy etc. but: they are more expensive, they suffer form animosity and, once again, are not ItP, so will be shot and panicked. Snots are reliable, they go where you want them to, they die when you want them to.

Oh yes, and snots do not cause panic in any other unit in your army. fleeing with your wolvies can cause a lot of problems for some nearby gobbo's if you have a bit of bad luck.

The key is succesfil snot use lies in angling them just right (so that when the enemy charges they will NOT 'most likely overrun into your unit') and thus messing up the enemies nice plans. I know it works, I use it time and again.

Urgat
09-07-2008, 13:56
and what will those 13 goblins add that you do not alreayd have?
Two ranks, or almost one more unit. Not so bad, compared to 6 T2 wounds...


- a deployment choice, so you can place your important units later than you opponent

I already got like 4 more units to place compared to other people :p

[/quote]- a charge redirecter. You WANT the enemy to charge and overrun your snotblock as you will have set up a countercharge for that[/quote]

Yeah, that can work, but usually I use my wolves for that, and they work wonders already.


- flexibility: if the enemy has a lot of knights that can kill your units on the charge (blood knights e.g.) then a snotblock of 40 points can easily ruin the day of this 400+ point unit. If the enemy however does not have a lot of things that are dangerous on the charge then you can put the snots to the side and use them to take a table quarter.

Again, my wolves do the job pretty well, and they got many more benefits. And they can easly get the needed table quarters in the last turn, as well...

[/quote]- block part of an enemies charge: getting combocharged is a pain, but if your snots can block one of the enemy combo chargers then you can prevent this combo charge. E.g. I used one snotblock to block the paths of no less than 3 ogre units once, so his 4th ogre unit has the choice of either chargin my orcs on their own or not charging and being charged in my next turn. One ogre block will lose to fully ranked spear armed svg orcs, so that put him in a tight spot..[/quote]

I can't really comment on that. My opinion is that the unit would just overran through the snots, though.


once again, do not lookat the individual unit, look at how this unit can interact with the rest of your force to judge if they are expensive or not..

I do, but I really can't see what they can do that another unit won't be able to do better.

Really, you can't deny they're too expensive. If they dropped stubborn and were made (clearly) cheaper, I'd certainly use them more.

But, as a concession to the fact I may be mistaken in not seeing the light, I will try them again in my next battle. Maybe they'll surprise me.

Gobbo Lord
09-07-2008, 14:38
I use one unit of two snotling bases to take a flank and contest table quarters, redirect chargers etc. Yes a unit of gobbos is a similar price but if a unit of wolves is destroyed within 6inches of a unit of Night Goblins then the Night Goblins will panic. If Snotlings are destoryed no other unit in the army will care, unlike fast cavalry, small Goblin units etc.
I do agree though that they are too expensive, 20 points a base is too much. I think somewhere inbetween 10 and 15 points would be better, with 15 still being of questionable value. For the price of one unit of Snotlings you can buy a normal Troll, A Snotling Pump Wagon or a Goblin Big Boss, all of which are far more usefull to the army as they have many more functions. The Troll is even better at redirecting etc as he doesnt cause panic due to his low unit strength, but can lay the hurt and not get killed so easilly.

On a side note im facing Deamons for the first time tonight. I always use the same list and am not tailoring it for them (You shouldnt have to tailor a list to beat specific armies) I will report on my progress late whne i return) (The list i use is in the army lists section)

warlord hack'a
09-07-2008, 15:10
a unit of 5 wolves is almost twice as expensive as the 40 point snot unit, will get panicked if shot and might suffer from animosity on a wrong moment.

Snots are reliable and it is nice to at least have a few reliable units n the field..

lparigi34
09-07-2008, 15:57
I use one unit of two snotling bases to take a flank and contest table quarters, redirect chargers etc. Yes a unit of gobbos is a similar price but if a unit of wolves is destroyed within 6inches of a unit of Night Goblins then the Night Goblins will panic. If Snotlings are destroyed no other unit in the army will care, unlike fast cavalry, small Goblin units etc.
I do agree though that they are too expensive, 20 points a base is too much. I think somewhere in between 10 and 15 points would be better, with 15 still being of questionable value. For the price of one unit of Snotlings you can buy a normal Troll, A Snotling Pump Wagon or a Goblin Big Boss, all of which are far more useful to the army as they have many more functions. The Troll is even better at redirecting etc as he doesn't cause panic due to his low unit strength, but can lay the hurt and not get killed so easily...

Well, all you mention sounds OK, but all of them have downsides too. Troll and Wagon, stupidity and randomness, not to mention each takes your precious rare slot.

Wolves & Spiders, they suffer from animosity and low Ld.

So the case in favor of snots is non animosity & ItP, so basically they are the only reliable troop you have regarding movement, which is so important in the first couple of turns.

Personally, I have not tried them yet though. As I said before (or was it Avian too... darn jealousy, his page really rocks!!!) :p, I'll try them and be back with my insight.

Urgat
09-07-2008, 16:00
a unit of 5 wolves is almost twice as expensive as the 40 point snot unit, will get panicked if shot and might suffer from animosity on a wrong moment.

5 wolves with musicians and bows (the setup for my wolves) is 71 points, and they're way more than twice as useful... As for panic, the 6" range is hardly an issue since your wolves shouldn't be around, and the no panic deal with the snots is a non-issue because when is the last time anybody bothered shooting at your snots?

Lord Gobbo: good luck, I'm looking forward to hearing how it went :)

Shimmergloom
09-07-2008, 16:12
No it's not. 60pts is not almost twice as expensive. It's 1.5 times the price. But it's much, much faster, so it really shoudln't be panicking anything, because it should be 6 inches away from most of your units if not all of them anyway. It has more attacks, so it can take on small fast cav units and scouting units if possible and do real damage.

It can hunt lone mages if your opponent tries to hide them behind hills or woods.

It can get to the other side of the table and take out war machine crews or at least force your opponent to worry about them taking out war machine crews so that he's shooting them instead of other units.

Wolves and spiders may be prone to animosity but with 18" charge/march range, wolves are twice as fast, so can move in 1 turn, what it would take snots 2 turns to move anyway. And spiders can move into terrain that snots are stuck moving 2 inches per turn to go through, so instead have to go around or stay put.

Dranthar
09-07-2008, 23:37
I think the thing to reember here with wolves vs. snotlings is that they each have their own uses.

Snotlings are sacrificial units that are immune to psych and are guaranteed not to cause any panic in nearby units. With some semi-intelligent angling you can expose your opponents units to some nasty flank charges with your infantry. Perhaps most critically, they're reliable. They won't fail any panic/terror checks and won't suffer from animosity at a critical moment. I think the last bit is one of the greatest advantages snots have over fast cavalry.

Wolf Riders have all the benefits of fast cavalry, being able to move fast, do alright on a flank charge and hunt warmachines/mages etc - stuff that snotlings are quite hopeless at.
As charge redirectors wolf riders have the advantage of speed and potentially recyclability. But you still risk causing panic in goblin units (so less fo an issue in an orc army), are forced to deal with animosity, are vulnerable to panic and are more expensive than snots. For those reasons, as pure charge redirectors I would say that snotlings are better, but wolf riders are still capable of doing the same job, plus others.

I certainly wouldn't recommend taking snotlings to the exclusion of wolf riders, although I do think throwing in a unit or two is worth while.

Personally I think Avians idea of using snotlings to protect mages is cost-prohibitive. You need a 100pt snotling unit to properly protect a mage, and frankly I'd rather stick him on his own or risk animosity than tie up 100pts extra on a spellcaster.

Gobbo Lord
09-07-2008, 23:57
Ok my battle was against the new Vampire Counts, not Deamons as I thought, but thats ok as i havent played either of the two up untill tonight. I suffered the very worst defeat I have ever had in a game of Warhammer.

The main reson was dice rolls, Greenskins really do depend on the dice more than many other armies and mine were abysmal. But i learnt a few things about the vampire counts that annoyed, frustrated and generally vexed me.

Now im not going to go into a ramble about how overpowered they (I did have god awful luck afterall) are but just put a few pointers that i took from the game in the many phases which i was beaten.

The Waaagh: Statistically this should not have happened but 3 of my main blocks rolled a one when i called the waaagh (Two housed my two shamans aswell), this led to my generals unit flying forward on its own. Also the Black Orcs were supposed to charge towards a unit of Black Knights then Use Gorks Waaagh Banner to charge them by surprise, However upon measuring it turned out they could see the edge of a Ghoul unit which was slightly closer and so they did an almighty wheel, presenting their flanks to the nearby black Knights, proving that waaagh can be detrimental.

Combat: I have a lot to say about this. Fighting Undead is very different to fighting normal troops, the crumble rule is annoying as you have to destroy a unit completely before you can free your unit up again. The thing that really beat me was being outnumbered by Fear causing enemies, normally i think this is a good rule. But i got had by it so many times it started to frustrate me.
Here is why. The vampire counts have so many spells/magic items/banners that add troops to their units that eventually they will outnumber you. CAse in point. I charged a unit of 25 orcs into a unit of 20 skeletons being led by his Vampire Lord, whom i thought my Black Orc Warboss would mince up nicely. So i issue a challenge which is accepted by his unit champion, no worries there ill have his vamp next turn. I slaughter his champion causing 4 wounds and the boys kill a few more skeletons. Then he attacks with his Vampire, he kills some Orcs, thats fine with me ive still won the combat, BUT every orc he kills with his vampire turns into a skeleton for his unit.
NOw I win the combat by a few and he loses skeletons accordingly. However i have lost the Boyz that were killed and he has his men back. Then he informs me he loses one less skeleton due to combat res because his battle standard is nearby. Not only that but he then raises d6 more into the unit INCLUDING THE CHAMPION, there goes my chance of getting to his Vamp. So this goes on with the boyz losing more men each turn and the skeletons gaining back what they have lost or at least most of what they have lost.

Eventually im outnumbered, losing ranks and i lose a combat by 1, of course i flee, being slowly ground down untill i was outnumbered by a fear causing enemy, its a waiting game for them, you lose your bonus' slowly over time whilst they keep theirs you win at first (wooo you lose three skeletons, but your vamp killed 2 orcs and now youve got more from a spell) but slowly get dragged into a match you cant win. Undead have the ability to take the losses in combat as they dont break, they can raise up more later, even after three turns. The most embarassing thing is the most damage i did was when my squigs fled from his Grave Guard and chewed on many of his units before dissapearing forever.


What i have learnt that i think i should add as this is a Tactica Thread (Please dont say take Spirit Totem or take more this and that as I dont tailor lists, i learn to fight with what i have)

1. You need to decimate Undead units on turn one so they crumble more than just a few models, which they can easily sustain with their plethora (Jealous much) of cheap effective, magic items and dark gifts etc. The only way i can think to do this is flank charges either on the turn you charge or at least by the next, without the rank bonus they will lose by a lot more models and it will be harder to sustain their unit strength.

2. All undead units have some sort of magic something or other which is going to make your life hard. Think about your battles before you charge in, those units of weak troops may well have some dam sneaky thing (the 25point banner which doubles their unit strength, you cant say thats fairly priced considering the outnumbered by a fear causing rule, compared to the banners i get for 25 points, d6 on a charge ONCE per game), perhaps you need to wait that extra turn for your support, shaman etc.

2. Undead magic is the single most annoying thing i have ever witnessed in warhammer (And ive faced a steam tank with nothing in my army remotly capable of hurting it). Two shamans usually provides me with adequate magic defense for the phase to be fun (some gets through, some does not) Rolling many spells with no chance of miscast on that many power dice is not. I might change my Staff of sneaky Stealing to a Staff of Sorcery for all future games (Not tailoring as i wouldnt just do it against the Undead) if this is what magic is like now?

3. No matter how hard you try, this army (I love them still) punishes you the hardest for bad dice (Two squabbles from my Boar Boyz meant by the time they got to the battle they were literally the only unit i had left capable of doing anything (turn 5) apart from some snotlings which my squigs had seen to werent going to be contesting any table quarters tonight).

Dranthar
10-07-2008, 01:35
VC are undoubtably a tough army to face, doubly so if the dice simply refuse to go your way.

Most VC players will have enough magic to ensure they'll get at least a few spells off each turn, but if you know what you're doing there are ways to minimise it's impact.

Basically, you need to put your opponents magic phase into 'damage recovery' mode. Hit his regiments with your shooting and magic and pummel key units to the point that he'll be forced to expend most of his magic in recovering casualties.

Let him cast his invocations, just so long as you make sure he doesn't let off his nastier spells, particularly Van Hels. Van hels is a spell that will lose you the game if you let your opponent spam it, but also remember that van hels has a short range, so you can anticipate which units are likely to try and use it and then either anticipate it's use in your own movement phase, or focus on dispeling any van hels cast by those mages in range.

If you don't have much in the way of magic/shooting then the next best thing is to just pile into combat as quickly as possible. Once you've locked down his units you won't need to worry about van hels and your superior combat troops (they ARE superior right? What else did you spend those points on??) should force your opponent into keeping his units alive with invocations.
Eventually, you'll need to hit some of your opponents units with flank charges (if you don't have more units than a VC player, then you're doing it wrong), at which point no amount of magic will stop the inevitable crumble.

Finally, it's a bit obvious, but killing your opponents mages is a huge help. Just don't focus on it to the exclusion of everything else, otherwise you'll find yourself wasting resources on negligible chances of killing those mages.

Gobbo Lord
10-07-2008, 10:15
Oh yes, my troops were superior in both numbers and strength. I run a horde combat army, only shooting is two units of wolf riders and two shamans provide my magic. A bad waaagh coupled with poor dice rolls in combat (never had such bad luck in a game but i guess it happens to us all) led to my demise.

But i have learnt a lot about the army, I think getting decimated by them allowed me to see them how they are supposed to function, as essentially my boyz just stood there and let the enemy do his thing.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2008, 10:55
Anybody else used the pipes of doom? I used them against a bretonnian army yesterday and they were devastating. I managed to get the horn of urgok off in the first turn (though I can't remember if it affected any of the tests) and I followed this up with the pipes. The pipes caused two units of realm knights and two errant knight units to take panic tests. Both the realm knights failed their tests, one had the general in the other the battle standard.

The eventual result was that the BSB and his realm knights and a unit of pegasus knights fled the board and my opponent's army was really out of position.

I've promised not to use them again for a while.



The game ended on turn two after two more units were destroyed by a combination of terror, crossfire and impassable terrain. My poor friend failed 8 leadership tests in the first two turns.

Urgat
10-07-2008, 11:25
I certainly wouldn't recommend taking snotlings to the exclusion of wolf riders, although I do think throwing in a unit or two is worth while.

You know, I've thought a great deal about snots because of that thread. After all, I've not used them much all in all, maybe twice since 5th edition (lol). And yeah, I do have come up with a couple sneaky ideas with how to use them. I'll definitively try them again.


Personally I think Avians idea of using snotlings to protect mages is cost-prohibitive. You need a 100pt snotling unit to properly protect a mage, and frankly I'd rather stick him on his own or risk animosity than tie up 100pts extra on a spellcaster.

I tried it, and don't like it either. Unless you take a good fat unit, any shooting or magic will lay waste on that unit. I prefer to stick my shamans in my warmachines, they'll get shot anyway if given the opportunity, they're uimune to psychology, randomisation of hits should rediredt a great deal of hits on the (indeniably tougher than gobs) warmachine itself, and so on. Sure, it's an issue for short spell ranges, but the shaman can just be in a unit at the begining, then move back when the melee draws near.
Well, warmachines and buildings, my shamans have the nasty habit of hopping from buildings to buildings :D


Ok my battle was against the new Vampire Counts, not Deamons as I thought, but thats ok as i havent played either of the two up untill tonight. I suffered the very worst defeat I have ever had in a game of Warhammer. The main reson was dice rolls, Greenskins really do depend on the dice more than many other armies and mine were abysmal.

Tough luck. I got two very frustrating battles like that monday (see previous pages). Bad week for the greenskins :'(
Anyway, i'll try and gove some hints, I've fought the goddamned blighters for years, and with my goblin horde, I've finally reached a point where I pulled about as many wins as I got losses (so much for low Ld :p).


The Waaagh: Statistically this should not have happened but 3 of my main blocks rolled a one when i called the waaagh (Two housed my two shamans aswell), this led to my generals unit flying forward on its own. Also the Black Orcs were supposed to charge towards a unit of Black Knights then Use Gorks Waaagh Banner to charge them by surprise, However upon measuring it turned out they could see the edge of a Ghoul unit which was slightly closer and so they did an almighty wheel, presenting their flanks to the nearby black Knights, proving that waaagh can be detrimental.


Every time I call the Waaagh, it turns nasty. Monday, I tried for the first time savage boyz (on foot). A small flanking unit, 10 strongs. They lost one to mounted marauders (and despite the amunt of attacks, they killed one in return, yeaaaaaah), but broke them on the next turn. Then I call on the waaagh. Rolled a 1, then rolled a 6, then rolled six 5 and 6. Then no 6, of course. And they turn into a very impressive mobile full comand, with no troops.


1. You need to decimate Undead units on turn one so they crumble more than just a few models, which they can easily sustain with their plethora (Jealous much) of cheap effective, magic items and dark gifts etc. The only way i can think to do this is flank charges either on the turn you charge or at least by the next, without the rank bonus they will lose by a lot more models and it will be harder to sustain their unit strength.
Actually, I think you should pummel the vampires and necromancers. Aim everything that hits hard at them. Spear chukkas, doom divers, rock lobbers, trolls, giants. Aim for the weaker ones first, I know the army crumbling thing is tasty, but usually the other casters are easier to kill. And with each PD lost, the army gradualy becomes weaker. No, not gradualy, in fact: exponentialy is the word. You don't really need to fight the vampire head on right away, send some wolves to die and redirect him so he loses a turn or two, and concentrate on the rest of the characters.
Anyway: DON'T challenge with your characters, silly Gobbo! ;) Don't challenge, in fact. If you challenge with your big/warboss, he'll answer with his champion. If you challenge with your champion, the vampire will take on the duel. Let him challenge (or not), and act accordingly. Oh, and try and align your unit so that your chmpion is in contact with the vampire too (as long as you don't break any rules, of course), the couple additional attacks may make all the difference.



I might change my Staff of sneaky Stealing to a Staff of Sorcery for all future games (Not tailoring as i wouldnt just do it against the Undead) if this is what magic is like now?
Why? Unless you aim at throwing more than the odd spell, just do as I do: take both. You got two shamans right? Remember dispelling is from the common pool, it's not "shaman A tries to dispell". You can combine both, I always do that, it's pretty effective. And yes, the staff of sorcery is the single best magic item in the common items list, ESPECIALLY against undead ( and ogres - but I take that against everybody anyway, if I can't cast, nobody will, nah!).


3. No matter how hard you try, this army (I love them still) punishes you the hardest for bad dice (Two squabbles from my Boar Boyz meant by the time they got to the battle they were literally the only unit i had left capable of doing anything (turn 5) apart from some snotlings which my squigs had seen to werent going to be contesting any table quarters tonight).
[/quote]

Well, that's orcs and gobs for you... if you win, it's still fun, if you lose because of it, it's frustrating, heh? :p




Anybody else used the pipes of doom? I used them against a bretonnian army yesterday and they were devastating. I managed to get the horn of urgok off in the first turn (though I can't remember if it affected any of the tests) and I followed this up with the pipes. The pipes caused two units of realm knights and two errant knight units to take panic tests. Both the realm knights failed their tests, one had the general in the other the battle standard.

The eventual result was that the BSB and his realm knights and a unit of pegasus knights fled the board and my opponent's army was really out of position.

I've promised not to use them again for a while.

The game ended on turn two after two more units were destroyed by a combination of terror, crossfire and impassable terrain. My poor friend failed 8 leadership tests in the first two turns.

It's just flat out bad luck for your opponent, though. That's indeed a nasty combo, but it's rarely useful, it's for tailored lists (like you know you're gonna face bretonians, or the old all mounted chaos or HE). Little point otherwise.

Chadjabdoul
10-07-2008, 17:57
Just a few thoughts.

Call the waagh on your first turn. First action of the game waagh. Otherwise: a) you might forget it, b) thinking about when to call it might distract you from other plans, c) those 6s will be more easily manipulated by your opponnent

A lot of people talk about screening, I find it disastrous with animosity. I think that your best defences against shooting are T4 for your orcs, and presenting too many targets. Stick a chariot next to your boarboyz, (on the flank of course) you might just tempt him (her) to shoot that instead, one of the two should reach enemy lines.

Avoid complicated plans. Main idea is usually to get your good units in combat as soon as possible (calling waagh early helps).

With the exception of wyvern riders, every other character is usually better off in a unit. Shamen can stick with arrer boyz or smaller n.goblins that are there just to release fanatics. Svg orc greater shamen can be an exception and go with a decent sized svg boyz units (warpaint and bas'em ladz on a single die).
Consider mounted goblin bosses in units of trolls, that way they stop being dependant on general to pass stpdity tests

I have often complained about the latest book, but its mostly to do with fluff ****ups. (read dwarf book to get more info on O&G fluff). In tournaments O&G might never do well, but for friendlies the army can still kick ass (as long as the dice are not too hostile)

semersonp
10-07-2008, 20:08
... please don't call waaagh! first turn...

lappy battery dying, more on that in a bit...

Gobbo Lord
10-07-2008, 20:30
Im really interested on the info on the Greenskin history. I found the new book to be awful for background. The most annoying thing is... Grom the Paunch... who sailed west into the troubled history of the High Elves. Thats it... even though he has a rule called "Eats Elves for Breakfast" we get no explanation as to why he deserves this rule.

And Grimgor, he had a massive back story on the GW website and in the book he gets two paragraphs, and it makes it out like he fought in the Storm of Chaos on his own.

Wheres the history of lesser greenskin tribes and others.... we should make a thread in Background where people can add info from other sources other than the greenskin book whic is honestly...lacking.

(sorry not tactics)

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2008, 20:31
It's just flat out bad luck for your opponent, though.

It was slightly unlucky however the number of tests caused was really high. That's usually the way it works in warhammer though, once you start failing psychology tests your army is capable of ripping itself to pieces as units start to flee through one another.

He did pass all but one rally test, however due to the early use of the pipes and positioning, three units were destroyed after a single failed test each.

The combo was tailored to beat my friend (something I wouldn't normally do) but we're playing in a campaign and he had a 250 point advantage plus I'd never used the combo before.

bork da basher
10-07-2008, 20:48
gone are the days when army books actually contained decent fluff and info. if you want fluff i suggest looking on ebay or "accidentally downloading" said army books from dubious sources online ;)

basically grom sailed to ultherwhatsit smacked a load of elves about at tor yvresse (sp?) killed eltharian the grims dad, his shamen nearly caused the world to end cos he peed on the wrong waystone or something then it all went badly for the goblins and i forgot what else happened. the elves won at the end of the day its not really that interesting really.

Urgat
10-07-2008, 21:14
Im really interested on the info on the Greenskin history. I found the new book to be awful for background. The most annoying thing is... Grom the Paunch... who sailed west into the troubled history of the High Elves. Thats it... even though he has a rule called "Eats Elves for Breakfast" we get no explanation as to why he deserves this rule.

It was explained in lenghts in the 5th edition HE armybook.
Basically, Grom's fleet reached Ulthuan (landed at Carin Lotherl, in Yvresse) after losing half its ships to the various hazards on the sea. There, he began wrecking havoc. His shaman Blacktooth started taping magic from the ward stones that maintain the vortex that keeps the chaos winds at bay.
Grom captured then, later, killed Moranion (Eltharion's father) as he tries to escape. Eltharion saw Moranion's ghost and decided to come back from Naggaroth. Meanwhile, Blackteeth's taping started earthquakes and that kind of crap on Ulthuan.
Grom destroyed the army sent from Tor Yvresse and killed Argalen (Eltharion's brother, poor sod, lost all his family to Grom lol). Then he invaded Tor Yvresse, and Eltharion arrived to save the day. He first slained Blacktooth during an aerial dogfight (wyvern versus griphon, ah, the good old days when goblins could ride them...), the falling corpse of the shaman makes Grom's army break and flee (right... see, nemesis crown wasn't the first one to pull that silly trick), he then goes in a tower will lots of wizards to fix the vortex (he's the only survivor from that, and since then he earned his title, the Grim).
As for Grom? He was near the gates of the city when Blacktooth fell, didn't manage to stop his horde from fleeing, shrugged and just left, like that. No words about him after that, he didn't get wounded or anything, no elf could get close to him. The rest is open to conjectures.


And Grimgor, he had a massive back story on the GW website and in the book he gets two paragraphs, and it makes it out like he fought in the Storm of Chaos on his own.
Boring character. He comes from beyond the World's Edge mountains with his Immortalz, he subjugates the local tribes, he kills a lot of dwarfs, during the winter he fights underground with the skavens, during the summer he goes down and fights with the Kislevites and the Empiremen. He starts his Waaagh during the Storm of Chaos, becomes goblinophobic and kills all the goblins in his waaagh, wrecks havoc among both other sides, headbutts Archaon and leaves (right bis...). During the Nemesis crown, he basically does nothing excepted spitting at Karl Franz from afar and leaving when his army runs because a goblin screamed (riiiiiiiiight, third edition). A notable point though: the chaos dwarfs supposedly allied themselves with him then, and not with Chaos. Not that we got access to the Hellcanon or anything, though :/.


Wheres the history of lesser greenskin tribes and others.... we should make a thread in Background where people can add info from other sources other than the greenskin book whic is honestly...lacking.

Can't help you there, sorry.

Chadjabdoul
10-07-2008, 21:45
Goblins could ride wyverns (and dragons) once upon a time, but Blacktoof was an orc no?

Avian
11-07-2008, 00:57
Yeah, he was.

Urgat
11-07-2008, 10:45
Ah, good to know. Blame the french translations, they never ever mentioned what he was, so I just assumed Grom's "old friend" was a goblin.

Mozzamanx
17-07-2008, 19:20
Whats the optimum setup for Blorcs? I guess shields are a necessity for range defence, but what about number? Should they have a magic banner? Full Command?

Also, which of the following is a better Wyvern rider?

1- Savage Orc Warboss, with the Pigstikka, Big Ed's Kickin' Boots, and the Battle Brew. He's totally uncontrollable, with the risks of Stupidity, Hatred AND Frenzy, but can easily take a ranked unit from the front and give it a beating. Because he's so hard to control, I gave him the Pigstikka- if he goes for the front, he'll stab 'em. If he goes for a flank, he doesn't need it.
2- Blorc Warboss, with the Akrit Axe and Iron Gnasha's. This guy is solid and controllable, but not quite as brutal. He really needs to flank units, but is much more likely to get them.

lparigi34
17-07-2008, 20:26
Put that Savage Warboss in a chariot, screen him wisely (snots are fully controllable)and tale maximum advantage of the Waaagh rule... see him wreaking havoc.

Not so wise maybe in terms of Battle Tactics and a wise opponent may find ways to deal with it it, specially if he knows about it, so bring him in just now and then...

The same guy on the IronBack boar also is very good and easier to screen, but you'll have to leave some other stuff out.

lparigi34
17-07-2008, 20:53
As for the Units.

A.- Small type, 6-10 guys use it detachment style. Use it to protect flanks or charge them, etc. I find Boars A LOT better for this task.

B.- Mainstay unit, bigger 20-25 & Magic Standard. I find bigger units (30+) of normal Orcs led y a Black Orc a lot better for this purpose (and don't use my special slots).

C.- Any tactical setup that requires a unit not to suffer from animosity. Can't think of any now that couldn't be covered by another unit.

So, as you can see, I find little role for them in my army, as nearly always I find something better to do the task.

I love Grimgor and his Inmortulz, though...

Apologize for double posting...

Urgat
18-07-2008, 14:02
Oh, yeah, I tested the snotlings, two units, too. 2 base wide units with M4 meant they were always outmanoeuvered and useless, I didn't manage to pull anything with them.
My opinion on them stands, I prefer to spend their points on almost 20 gobs.

Fredmans
18-07-2008, 15:10
On the issue of Snotlings, I agree with Urgat. With M4, they are very difficult to use for baiting and re-directing. In my recent games, I've had to back and turn to get an angle that does not risk the block you want to protect anyway, and if I back with my orc regiments, they take even longer to get where they should be. I much prefer Wolf Riders, which if you keep a regiment in reserve, have a vastly superior action range and CAN flee. I find most of the uses suggested for Snotlings are performed far better by other choices. The only time I have found Snotlings useful is when it comes to harassment, and possibly attacking things that pop up behind your combat line, as a sort of rear guard (without the guard ability).

Just my thoughts on Snotlings,

/Fredmans

Fredmans
18-07-2008, 15:14
Did not mean to reply to myself, but I want to suggest a use for black orcs, which I have started to experiment with. Seeing that Black orcs auto-waaagh, I have started to occupy buildings with a 10-strong unit of them. They are quite tough to assault, seeing that all ten of them can fight, and when the time is right, I can waagh them out of the building and subsequently charge in the movement phase.

/Fredmans

Storak
18-07-2008, 15:18
Oh, yeah, I tested the snotlings, two units, too. 2 base wide units with M4 meant they were always outmanoeuvered and useless, I didn't manage to pull anything with them.
My opinion on them stands, I prefer to spend their points on almost 20 gobs.

with the amount of flyers around today, they wont achieve anything in most battles. a horrible unit.

if you want to look at "state of the art" troops of a similar type, you should look at nurglings: all stats are better, daemonic, poison attack, scouts and skirmish special rules, for 15 extra points per base. pretty insane.


--------------------

i have a question about plaguebearer units, including a nurgle herald, of course.
it takes 12 orc attacks during first turn (S4) to kill one, 18 in following turns. attacking the herald is 18 attacks per wound, first turn, 36 afterwards. and the herald will always strike before the orcs, due to his smell...

the demosn aren t bad in combat, with S4 and poison attacks.

even when i win combat, the result will be a minor additional loss of plaguebearers at best. when i lose, i might autobreak...

the chaos player will dominate the magic phase and the herald gets look out sir against lucky rock lobber hits.

a char with killing blow sounds obvious, but the chances of killing him simply are still not good.

Mozzamanx
18-07-2008, 15:25
Nurgle are tough, but that's kind of the point.

I would basically swamp them, either in Goblins or Snotlings. With 3 ranks, a banner and outnumber (yours are 3pts, his are 12...) you should at least tie for combat resolution every turn, maybe get lucky and win by a point or 2 for some quicky crumbles.

1 Str4 attack each, means that he will never ever kill the unit. Poison is wasted, since your toughness is average anyway, and your fairly resilient with LA and a shield. A unit of 25, with a banner and shields, will cost 108pts. Considering that they will hold up 300pts of the enemy, and possibly be standing at the end of it, they are a bargain.

Hell, you'll actually win combats if you can get them in the flank with some fodder. A few bases of Snotlings will be able to do this easily with skirmish. I'd love to see them take on a swarm with 3 attacks, particularly when they don't get a rank bonus and are possibly outnumbered.

Come to think of it, Snotlings are really an excellent tool against Nurgle! They have the edge in manouverability, will tarpit them for the rest of the game, and are immune to psychology.

And Daemons really tend to suck in the magic phase, except for Tzeentch. The most magic you can face at 2000pts is 7 levels, which is pizzles for O&G with the massive number of dispel dice available. If he does take Tzeentch, then your blocks of infantry should be able to take it. D6+1 hits just isn't that scary when your in a block of 40.

Urgat
18-07-2008, 18:14
Come to think of it, Snotlings are really an excellent tool against Nurgle! They have the edge in manouverability, will tarpit them for the rest of the game, and are immune to psychology.

Tarpit what? WIth no saves, toughness 2 and WS2, no ranks, no banner, no nothing, plaguebearer's farts will send them flying, stubborn or not.

The only thing snotlings can tarpit is another unit of snotlings. There is nothing weaker in warhammer, and, considering the price, I think there is no unit worse in warhammer, in fact. Common goblins any day over these guys. So what if they can't squabble? They can't achieve anything when they get there anyway.

Storak
18-07-2008, 20:46
Nurgle are tough, but that's kind of the point.

yes. i my question was about how to beat them. i find it hard to achieve...


I would basically swamp them, either in Goblins or Snotlings. With 3 ranks, a banner and outnumber (yours are 3pts, his are 12...) you should at least tie for combat resolution every turn, maybe get lucky and win by a point or 2 for some quicky crumbles.

snotlings will ALWAYS lose this combat and run. (unless you keep rolling 4s..) they don t have ranks or a banner and will always suffer 3+ casulaties.
it takes 36 snotling attacks to kill a plaguebearer in that unit. you will very likely never see that happen, even when playing a lot of games...

goblins on the other hand, will nearly never win the combat. they too will take 3+ casulaties. and i am not sure, whether gobbos with a banner aren t free victory points in an environment, that might have a bloodthirster flanking around...

your "tarpit" is based around your gobbos passing a MASSIVE number of psychology and break tests. something that is only possible, if they are using the LD of your general. which is not easy, in an environment of animosity, fear tests and banners that give -2 to LD..


1 Str4 attack each, means that he will never ever kill the unit.

yes he will. 3+ per combat turn.



Poison is wasted, since your toughness is average anyway, and your fairly resilient with LA and a shield.

poison is never wasted, as you could always roll a 1 when trying to wound. against the plaguebearers, it even saves them a 1/3 chance of not wounding.
3+ to hit, 3+ to wound (+poison) and a 5+ save is NOT resilient!


A unit of 25, with a banner and shields, will cost 108pts.

you might want to bring that musician along...


Considering that they will hold up 300pts of the enemy, and possibly be standing at the end of it, they are a bargain.

as i explained above, they will NOT hold them up, nor will they be standing at the end....


Hell, you'll actually win combats if you can get them in the flank with some fodder.

when you manage to get a unit of gobbos (M4, animosity..) into their flank, you have achieved a minor miracle. even then, it is not clear that you will win the combat..


A few bases of Snotlings will be able to do this easily with skirmish. I'd love to see them take on a swarm with 3 attacks, particularly when they don't get a rank bonus and are possibly outnumbered.

ouch. snotlings do not skirmish. neither are they a swarm. to outnumber, you need to take a really big unit, that will still definetly lose the combat, unless you reach the flank. (miracle, again..)

are we playing the same game?


Come to think of it, Snotlings are really an excellent tool against Nurgle! They have the edge in manouverability, will tarpit them for the rest of the game, and are immune to psychology.

no.


And Daemons really tend to suck in the magic phase, except for Tzeentch. The most magic you can face at 2000pts is 7 levels, which is pizzles for O&G with the massive number of dispel dice available. If he does take Tzeentch, then your blocks of infantry should be able to take it. D6+1 hits just isn't that scary when your in a block of 40.

well, taking some Tcheentch fire support for those nurgle blocks looks like a no-brainer.
those high strength hits are scary, unless you only take blocks of 40 gobbos. they will eliminate those parts of your army, that actually could hurt that nurgle block...

----------------------

20 plaguebearers, herald on palanquin and vapours, level 1. about 480 points.

25 savage orcs, 2 HW, black orc big boss on boar with ward save (or enchanted shield?) and killing blow, about 410 points. and no magic level.

i doubt they would win. and they would take more damage from "shooting" than the demons. and it is a risky taktic. and they would perform even worse on the second turn of combat. and lose frenzy, when they lose combat once...

Mozzamanx
18-07-2008, 20:50
Hmm, seems my 'tactic' was actually a cleverly named bowel movement. Ah well, come up with one yerself, ingrate ;)

Storak
18-07-2008, 20:57
Hmm, seems my 'tactic' was actually a cleverly named bowel movement. Ah well, come up with one yerself, ingrate ;)

a, that is what i thought. infected by nurles rot and giving false advice to fellow green skins..;)

Shamfrit
18-07-2008, 20:58
Snotlings work brilliantly as screens for your Spear Chukkas. Lets ypou move them out of the way once the Snotlings are in combat. They lose a turn of firing, but it's better than them dying.

They can still be shot at though. Same applies for screening your combat units, or flanking alongside Da Boyz.

Storak
18-07-2008, 21:17
Snotlings work brilliantly as screens for your Spear Chukkas. Lets ypou move them out of the way once the Snotlings are in combat. They lose a turn of firing, but it's better than them dying.

They can still be shot at though. Same applies for screening your combat units, or flanking alongside Da Boyz.

why would i screen a 40 points spear chukka with 40 points of snotlings?

the snotling screen is rather useless against flyers.

and will lose combat agains pretty much everything else....

Shamfrit
18-07-2008, 21:27
Of course it's useless against flyers - but in those instances, your war machines are buggered regardless. 40 points is not alot, it does work against the vast majority of things and can help defend your war machines to get that extra shot off if need be. Snotlings have their tactical and deployment based uses, going into the game knowing they're going to do will change your perspective of them.

Of course, having spent two hours this afternoon winging about the strength of the new army books and how Skaven and Greenskins are getting a bum deal, I feel like I'm frankly shootin' ma-sen in da fut.

Dranthar
19-07-2008, 11:59
Bah! Snotlings are there to die. It's something they're extremely reliable at doing and they're why I think they're some of the most useful units in the army.

Honestly, if you want to see their true value, you first need to realise that they're an expendible unit that will normally only stand up against seriously depleted enemy units.

And guarding spear chukkas with a unit of snotlings that is worth more than the chukkas themselves? Madness!! :rolleyes:

Heretic Burner
19-07-2008, 17:11
Actually snotlings are horribly unreliable at "dying". Yes you can wipe wounds off the unit due to the dreadful toughness value however the unit is stubborn on a low leadership number. That isn't good at all. If the goal of the unit is to be wiped out and leave the opponent unit out of position snotlings fail utterly at being reliable for this task.

Once again meaning the O&G player is far better off with a unit of wolf riders or goblins. Both die very, very well too however have the additional benefit of being far more predictable when it comes to combat results to say nothing of the massive charge reaction advantages. Yes these units suffer from the most broken rule in the game currently so its obvious the O&G player is better off taking option C - DOW units such as light cav and/or duellists.

Snotlings are an absolutely terrible unit that doesn't hold up well to virtually every other tarpit unit in the game. It doesnt hold up well to all diverting units in the game. Just dismal.

Avian
19-07-2008, 22:44
the O&G player is better off taking option C - DOW units such as light cav and/or duellists.
These units have the disadvantage of being able to cause Panic in Orc units and take up Rare choices. It is IMO far more effective to take an extra unit of Wolf Riders to compensate for the unreliability.

Shimmergloom
19-07-2008, 22:55
yeah I don't think either DoW lt. cav or DoW duelists are a better bet than wolfriders or spider-riders. The core vs rare thing takes care of any comparison that might be made.

Dranthar
20-07-2008, 05:03
If the goal of the unit is to be wiped out and leave the opponent unit out of position snotlings fail utterly at being reliable for this task.

Snotlings won't run away when charged and they wont fail an animosity test at a key opportunity. What that translates to is the fact that snotlings will reliably be able to move to where you want them to at the right time, and then not fail a fear check when the enemy runs at them.

Given how often you've complained about how crippling animosity is to your army, I'm surprised you've failed to see any value in a unit that does not suffer from animosity at all.

They also don't cause panic in anything else, which is extremely useful when you have goblins in your army.


Once again meaning the O&G player is far better off with a unit of wolf riders or goblins.
Both are at least 50% more expensive, take up more space on the field, suffer from animosity and are not immune to psychology.

As I said before, wolf riders have their own advantages over snotlings and I would never recommend taking one over the other. However as pure charge-redirectors, wolf riders can be worse. They have the advantage of speed and flee reactions, but they can cause panic in your goblin blocks and are larger than a snotling block. Thus if you're trying to redirect units coming at your main battle line, you're at risk of disrupting your own units in the process, whether through panic or just blocking movement.

The idea that goblins are better charge-redirectors than snotlings is just laughable. The only thing goblins have over snotlings is the opportunity for a flee reaction. On a M4 model, that's just not worth the 50% bump in cost.


Both die very, very well too however have the additional benefit of being far more predictable when it comes to combat results
I love how selective you are in your arguements. You and I both know that you can't gauge the reliability of a unit on combat combat results alone. You need them to get into position first, which is one of the things where snotlings have the edge over goblins and arguably wolf riders.


Yes these units suffer from the most broken rule in the game currently so its obvious the O&G player is better off taking option C - DOW units such as light cav and/or duellists.
...or just use a different army altogether. Since clearly the O&Gs are so bad at everything that nobody could possibly ever win with them... :eyebrows:

Honestly, why do you devote so much of your time ( >85% of your posts here) ragging on about how bad O&Gs are, rather than just spending your time more productively on other things? You don't even play the army any more, so what's the point? :wtf:


Snotlings are an absolutely terrible unit that doesn't hold up well to virtually every other tarpit unit in the game. It doesnt hold up well to all diverting units in the game. Just dismal.
Snotlings are about as good at being tarpits as they are at being front-line combat units of death. So it's a good thing that snotlings aren't actually supposed to be used as tarpits, huh?

You are right in saying that they're diverters though - one of the cheapest, most reliable diverters in the game.

Grinloc
20-07-2008, 12:38
Relying on passing (or not) the break test with a stubborn Ld4 unit to set up flank charge traps stands for reliability? Not to mention the opponent wouldn't be considered to be "the greatest of tacticians" for falling for that trap in the first place.
Additionally an army with any low strength shooting worth mentioning would just blast these "reliable diverting heroes" in one shooting phase, if they so choose. So those snotlings might become shooting diverters instead? The enemy won't shoot the RnF blocks anyway, since that would be mostly pointless.

Depending on a halfa**ed diverting tool with a horrid statline, just to avoid that fluffy devil named animosity? O&G's are ment to have a points break to compensate for their animosity. Problem is, besides orc boyz, most units don't have that points break in the first place. So in that picture 2*1 snotling base for 40 points is definately not cheap.
Not to mention the unit, which is meant to perform the flank charge after the "trap", needs to actually perform the charge as well.

In today's warhammer, which (imo) tends to become harsher with every edition/new army book, units of a particular army need some sort of synergy between them, so the army can function properly in any given situation. The problem is that O&G's have it considerably harder in that department than any other army out there. Not to mention most armies (some more than others) have a definite advantage against O&G's in the movement phase for the reasons everyone knows by now. So in many cases the opponent will decide what to charge, making the "snotlings diverting rave" tactic very difficult and often enough downright impossible to use.

In the snotlings' case avoiding animosity/psychology for performing any specific task and calling that reliable synergy is really stretching it. No offense please...being determined to find "it" is an admirable way of looking at things, no sarcasm here. But...theoryhammer is one thing, theoryhammer "under the rainbow" is quite another. Just analyzing units by themselves and not taking enemy units/armies into consideration won't work.

To be specific i'm coming from the DE point of view. The greenskins' book needs to be compared competitively to the other 7th edition army books for true viability. Since i got my new edition army book, spending those snotling points rather for the "squighoppers kicking my shades' a**es out of the woods"-game is way more viable than simply donating me some free VP's.

Urgat
20-07-2008, 13:19
Snotlings won't run away when charged and they wont fail an animosity test at a key opportunity.

What? Yes they will. Well, no, for the animosity part, but... do you have the same book as I do? Imagine ANY. I mean, ANY bloody unit in warhammer, save, maybe, zombies, charging a unit of snots.
Unless abysmall rolls (which do helps when you got Ld4...), they will flee. Period.


What that translates to is the fact that snotlings will reliably be able to move to where you want them to at the right time, and then not fail a fear check when the enemy runs at them.
They will reliably miove to the place where they will be wiped out in one turn and offer a free movement phase to the enemy, named overrun. Who cares if they fear or not, when they will break and flee anyway?


Given how often you've complained about how crippling animosity is to your army, I'm surprised you've failed to see any value in a unit that does not suffer from animosity at all.

Her... could have skipped that, HB's point of view is well known now, I don't thyink it is required to discuss it further ;)


They also don't cause panic in anything else, which is extremely useful when you have goblins in your army.

THIS could be good. Excepted that you can avoid panic from fleeing fairly easily by just angling your units right. As for panic from total destruction, to kill 20 gobs in one shooting round is fairly difficult, and killing 5 wolves should do no harm, since they shouldn't be in the middle of your lines.



Both are at least 50% more expensive, take up more space on the field, suffer from animosity and are not immune to psychology.
But they work, at least :p
Snotlings taking less space is a drawback, they can be completly outmaneuvered. yeah, they don't have animosity. Your opponent doesn't either. But your oponent doesn't have the abysmal stats either, they have M8 too, they can just run around, they can charge around, they can just ignore the buggers. I tried them last week, and that's precisely what happened. They just got ignored, either by going around (not hard), or going THROUGH (not hard either) depending on the situation.


As I said before, wolf riders have their own advantages over snotlings and I would never recommend taking one over the other. However as pure charge-redirectors, wolf riders can be worse. They have the advantage of speed and flee reactions, but they can cause panic in your goblin blocks and are larger than a snotling block. Thus if you're trying to redirect units coming at your main battle line, you're at risk of disrupting your own units in the process, whether through panic or just blocking movement.

If your redirection can cause panic, it means you're redirecting into your lines :/

Ah well, let's just agree to disagree.

Heretic Burner
20-07-2008, 14:32
These units have the disadvantage of being able to cause Panic in Orc units and take up Rare choices. It is IMO far more effective to take an extra unit of Wolf Riders to compensate for the unreliability.

They also have a higher leadership themselves and size matters is only limited to orcs and up - they cause panic just as easily in other goblins. Light cav are also, well, fast cavalry and are ideal for avoiding panic checks in the first place. And yes, 7th edition panic rules are far more forgiving anyway.

Of course with the enormous explosion of terror causing units the advantage swings even more towards DOW light cav. Throw in the fact they aren't saddled with the most crippling rule in the game and it is simple to see DOW are a vastly superior choice in most any situation imaginable.

Shamfrit
20-07-2008, 14:35
Apart from the sheer cost and the rare slot?

Trolls, Giants, Doom Divers and Pump Wagons.

I know which I'd rather go for...3-4 trolls are far more useful than Ummies.

Fobster
20-07-2008, 16:03
I thought the option for dogs of war was removed from the orcs and goblins list?

Grinloc
20-07-2008, 16:13
I never used DoW fast cavalry myself, but i can see where Heretic is coming from. The primary purpose of the unit is to reliably (!) match the speed of any other fast cavalry out there and to outmanouvre the slower opposing units.
The goal is to come up with a unit, which is viable against pretty much anyone. Looking at that part of the strategy the greenskin rares have their flaws.

Giant: Target practice for any shooting army (especially empire players), which results in big chunks of VP's for little effort. Not to mention getting his "punch units" removed early on isn't a good thing. In a positive light those "punch units" are essential, when coupled with SCR units, to reliably break the enemy.

Trolls: Those are somewhat better. Stone trolls are good against magic heavy armies for their MR, but need a babysitter to function properly. Or at least require to be positioned close to the general at all times.

Doom Diver: Their primary targets are expensive units, like heavy cavalry. Problem is those units have a rather small base size when added together, so hitting them is a matter of luck, not to mention guessing the appropriate range in the first place. Hitting RnF units instead just doesn't do much.

Pump Wagon: The 2d6 impact hits may be nice, but having a random movement (which on average equals to being slower than infantry) and not being able to declare charges at all is a big letdown. When given the choice between (charge range) 14/18" chariots and 2d6" chariots it becomes pretty clear which is the better option.

If it has to be one of those rares it would be the trolls coming out ahead. They are somewhat viable against plenty of armies and can't be simply ignored. Their stupidity is annoying, but hey...

After all it's about finding reliable ways (or close to that) to use O&G's, DoW cavalry provides this. Using DoW may not seem "green", but shouldn't be discarded outright as an option.

*Edit*: What i did occasionally use as rares was leadbelchers. Opposing cavalry, fast or not, tends to have the nasty habit of lurking around the player's flanks. Those guys effectively put an end to this. For example 2*3 leadbelchers, sometimes 2*4, one unit on each flank. 3 leadbelchers (without misfires) will on average wipe out a unit of 5 fast cavalry models. Their shooting may be 12", but it effectively is 18", considering they don't get any penalties for moving (6") or long range. Just a suggestion.

Avian
20-07-2008, 21:01
Throw in the fact they aren't saddled with the most crippling rule in the game and it is simple to see DOW are a vastly superior choice in most any situation imaginable.
Well, it is becoming more and more clear to me why you are doing badly with greenskins. If you are willing to trade a Rare slot, higher cost, Size Matters and less speed for a slightly higher reliability then obviously this is not the army for you. :p

Heretic Burner
21-07-2008, 22:52
Slightly more reliable? It is more reliable a whopping 1/3 of the time! That isn't even counting the leadership bonus in rallying. Heh, slightly.

Yes it may not be that fair a comparison, DOW light cav and duellists are two of the best units in the game even at a rare slot and O&G are certainly the worst army in the game. Nonetheless the point stands: using DOW is a complete no-brainer over the O&G unit alternative.

neXus6
22-07-2008, 00:01
Erm...if you think Greenskins are the worst army in the game then no wonder your doing badly. :p

I just decided to have a wee gander at this thread as I'm dusting off my Greenskins at the moment and it took me about 2 seconds to guess you were doing badly with them, long before I looked back at the posts saying you were having trouble.

Wasting rare choices on crap like DoW light cav and duellists when Greenskins have some of the best fast cavalry and skirmishers in the game...:wtf:

The rare choices avaliable to Orcs and Goblins are great, 4 trolls stood next to your general till they hit combat will work well, the doomdiver is a brilliant warmachine, if pump wagons hit they cause carnage and giants...well are giants.

I could never see taking Dogs of War units instead of any of those.

Grinloc
22-07-2008, 01:19
Wasting rare choices on crap like DoW light cav and duellists when Greenskins have some of the best fast cavalry and skirmishers in the game...:wtf:

Care to tell which "some of the best fast cavalry" you are refering to?
I guess you talk about wolf riders and spider riders. So you probably deem spider riders as "one of the best" just because they aren't slowed by difficult terrain?

About the skirmishers? I guess you are talking about the animosity prone squighoppers. Ever read their rules? Once they got into combat they have to maintain their base-to-base formation for the rest of the battle. An empire player might be even tempted to send a cannonball into their flank.

Passionate love for someone's units and discussing "hard numbers/viability" in an objective manner are two very different things. Such "discussions" don't tend to happen with other armies. They simply don't have to, since their units are in most cases viable/worth their points cost.
Greenskin fast cavalry and skirmishers among the best...this is just crazy.

lparigi34
22-07-2008, 01:42
Well, I truly believe that if you guys think that O&G sucks that much, then please, quit O&G and start playing more reliable armies... :rolleyes:

I've criticized the slant that O&G took in this last edition, making it harder to play than ever before and certainly not "the best" army of the game... BTW, what does "the best" mean? the army that wins all tournaments? or the army that you use to harass your friends and sleep feeling a bit less of a looser that night? :eyebrows:

I agree, some things maybe broken. Playing O&G now require Brains, and maybe thatīs not an Orcy approach, we Orcs we just want to run towards our enemy and beat the cr*p out of them...

But still the army is fun in manners no others will ever be, and still can be competitive. Scenes like having most of your army fleeing by turn 2 just to regroup and kick some ars*s and even sometimes win the battle, and there is so many other characterful examples.

Did I mention that they can still be competitive? and in different ways?

I mostly play two different armies, one is almost PURELY ORCS :eek:, no one is Black, but few are savages. The only gobbos are both wolves and spiders, but thatīs it. The other army is more balanced, a couple of NG units, some Orcs, some BO heroes, some machines, etc. Well, I have been pretty successful with both, having a nice positive overall balance...The most important thing, I always find friends more than willing to play with me.

Or ask my friend with his Uber Daemonic Army, after few games he is getting bored of being turned around for friendlies.

And if you are considering using DoW for your Rare slots :wtf: you are just out off the page mates, O&G have giants, Divers and Pump Wagons that are so cool and funny and can actually do amazing things, from time to time though.

My stronger criticism (well, everybody's, actually) is focused mostly in the way the Animosity and Waaagh! rule works and that some units seem not so usable as before (Black Orcs or plain Gobbos). Despite that the whole army is far from being the worst in the game.

neXus6
22-07-2008, 02:09
Grinloc...

Wolf riders are some of the fastest and cheapest fast cav in the game AND they don't cause panic in your important units, this makes them some of the best.

As for your views on hoppers for starters after the combat ends and the hoppers either flee or chase the enemy they will split back into their skirmish formation, in addition to which even if they are all in base contact it doesn't stop them being skirmishers so a cannon would still only hit 1.
They may not be the "best" but they are most certainly the hardest hitting. And they are a unit of skirmishers more than we had in the previous Army Books.


Well, I truly believe that if you guys think that O&G sucks that much, then please, quit O&G and start playing more reliable armies...

Agreed, please if your just going to sit spouting nonsense about how terribly crap Greenskins are please go and start yet another thread on the topic in the general forums do not clutter up the Tactica.

TheOniwaban
22-07-2008, 12:01
Need moar tactics!

warlord hack'a
22-07-2008, 13:05
about snots once again, someone mentioned that you can easily manouver around them (or through them). Now the through them part is where I agree and since they are quite reliable at being beaten (except for the small chance of hanging around stubborn) in CC and run over this is their main strength. Anybody who fails to see this can be a strength should not bother to discuss snotling tactics.

As for the moving around, please explain to me how it is easy to move around snotlings? Imagine an enemyunit coming my way intent of getting into close combat. Now if this unit is 7"move cavalry then they want to stop closer than 14" in front of the unit they want to target. Unfortunately for the cav unit however my target unit is not at the edge of my deployment: it is hidden behind my trusty snot block. So my snots are, after enemy movement, 10" away from the cav unit. Now the snots move 6 inch forward right towards the cav unit and then wheel 2 inch. This means that the furthest corner of the snot unit is max 4 inch away from the enemy cav, the side that wheeled forward is even closer.

How is this cav unit going to manouver around this snot block exactly? They are not, I can tell you! And if they charge, they will win and either remain where they are when not prusuiing (in which case it is my turn again and I can countercharge) or they prusue, and run right into my countercharge trap that I set up a few inches further down the line.

Now in the case of enemy infantry, either I do not mind them coming as my main unit is most likely better in CC, if I do then the snots can bug them as well by angling themselves and thus taking the enemy infantry unit out of position.

You see, the thing is snot units alone might not cut it, but they are the cheapest unit in an armylist with a lot of cheap units (e.g. my 2250 points elite infantry (3 units of spear armed svg orcs for one) army has 15 deployment choices), so the snots can trap expensive enemy units and I have far more units than my opponent to abuse the situation that all of a sudden the enemy has to manouver around my snots.

Any enemy unit that I have to worry about in close combat is twice as expensive as my unit (barring the ASF elves) so I have more units to counter that one enemy unit.

Seen in that light snot units are great. I know because I used them succesfully against very clever opponents (those wo think a few rounds ahead) who realized that if they moved to far forward my snots would block them. So at long range my snots already influenced his movement.

Grinloc
22-07-2008, 14:05
I assume the snotlings are placed in front of those savage orcs as a frenzy screen? Don't you think this tactic is a lil risky?

I mean as long as the snotlings aren't killed outright they'd have to pass a Ld4 test for holding (which seems unlikely), so this tactic will most likely only work against said cavalry being ItP (those would have to persue). In case the snotlings get wiped out instantly there's still the rare possibility of those ItP knights rolling 14+ on their 3d6" overrun roll, which probably makes them slam into your savage orc unit.

If the cavalry isn't ItP they might decide to hold instead of chasing down the snotlings. That way you would sacrifize the savage orcs' "anti-frenzy" screen. The snotlings rallying on your next turn would be unlikely either, so they at least wouldn't hinder the savage orcs' movement on their upcoming turn.

In case i missed something please clarify.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-07-2008, 14:48
ITP doesn't force a unit to pursue or overrun.

warlord hack'a
22-07-2008, 14:54
It will take me too much time to explain very accurately with all the distances involved etc, but I will try below. Still I suggest you take a 5 wide cav unit and put it opposite the board of a snot block of 2 and a svg orc unit 5 wide which stands tightly behind the snot block and where the side of the snot block is at the same level as either the right or the left side of the svg orc unit (so they are not centered..).

Now the manouver to pull is:
1) most likely the knights go first as the O&G force has more deployment choices. The knights move straight ahead, trying to get the charge on the O&G unit. they will be a minimum of 10" away from the front of the snots at the end of their move. Then move the snots 6 inch forward and wheel them 2 inch 'inward' (so if they are on the leftish side of the svg orcs they should wheel to the right and vice versa).
Also, the svg orcs will wheel forward about 4 inches (this is where you have to set it up and see for yourself) also turning inward (so basically their other side compared to the snot block will wheel, of the snot's right side wheel, then the svg orc's left side wheels).

Now if you moved them exactly right the following will have happened (when the snots wheeled his right side, so made a counter-clockwise wheel)
1) the knights leftmost model (right one as seen from the O&G side) can not manouver past the snot block easily (not by wheeling in any case)
2) if the knights charge then they will be forced to coonform to the snot block and thus will wheel counter clockwise. Since the knights are 5 inches and the snot block is 80 mm wide there is no manouvering by the knights and in the best situation the right most knight (left as seen from O&G) will be corner to corner with the snot block
3) the snots get beaten or even completely destroyed outright
4) if the knights do not pursue then the svg orcs can just about hit them when they charge as the corner of the knights and the corner of the svg orcs are only 4 inch apart. If this is tricky: now is a good time to call the waaagh.
5) if the knights do pursue then they will miss the svg orc unit by a small margin (1/2 inch or so) if they run far enough. However, with 3d6 inch pursue they will have more than 50% chance of ending in the danger zone, meaning: not running far enough to get outof svg orc charge range.

ANd the best thing: the svg orcs are not allowed to declare a chagre, so if the knights are out of range then the svg orcs can move normally, if they are in range the svg orcs have to charge.

now the distance the svg orcs wheel is crucial and the 4" is an estimate, so try it out yourself, getting into this situation is not as hard as people might think..

Grinloc
22-07-2008, 15:06
@Gazak:
Aye, i mixed that up with frenzy.

@warlord:
I replicated it (sort of) with movement trays, thanks for explaining.

lparigi34
22-07-2008, 18:19
Back to more tactics.

What about putting a Boar BO Hero in a unit of wolves to make it 1) reliable (sure some gobbos will die if the get animosity) 2) more likely to regroup 3) more likely to cause damage if can charge the flank of a unit.

Mozzamanx
22-07-2008, 20:37
Keep Blorcs away from your cavalry! The new rules for quell animosity means he'll tear them to shreds. Just keep a normal, Orc Warboss.

Storak
22-07-2008, 22:39
1) most likely the knights go first as the O&G force has more deployment choices. The knights move straight ahead, trying to get the charge on the O&G unit. they will be a minimum of 10" away from the front of the snots at the end of their move. Then move the snots 6 inch forward and wheel them 2 inch 'inward' (so if they are on the leftish side of the svg orcs they should wheel to the right and vice versa).
Also, the svg orcs will wheel forward about 4 inches (this is where you have to set it up and see for yourself) also turning inward (so basically their other side compared to the snot block will wheel, of the snot's right side wheel, then the svg orc's left side wheels).

this tactic has several major disadvantages:

1. you sacrifice 40 points of snotlings, to disctract 115 points of knights. for one turn.

2. your troops don t advance at full speed.. most armies OUTSHOOT O&G these days. even (some/most) demon armies do. not moving at full speed towards your opponent, effectively gives him another boost. this is the first turn. the one, in which you have the highest chance of not being march blocked...

3. your example is based on the savage orcs passing 2 animosity tests....

4. fast cav? flyers? single models? they all will outmaneuvre those snotlings. chariots will use them as a speed bump, as they aren t allowed to march..

warlord hack'a
23-07-2008, 07:46
Storak, all your drawbacks are true, but here is how I 'solve' these issues:

1) if it's a knight unit if 115 points then this trap is not worth it, 115 points of knights will die horribly when charging my svg orc unit head on: thisi s avanilla knightly order without anycommand option, they get 5 Ws4 S5 attacks plus 5 Ws 3 S3 attacks. On the charge this knight unit will kill 2.54 svg orcs, let's say 3. Now since the svg orcs have spears and a boss (and also a BO bigboss but see point 3, we will leave him out of the equation) 6 svg orcs plus boss can fight back, for in total 12 ws3 S3 and 3 ws3 S4 attacks. Due to the good save of the knights the svg orcs will kill a whopping 0.67 knight in return (bloody 1+ save).. So the knights will have 2 more kills, but alas horribly fail in the static CR department so lose with -3. So you see, no worries here. The worry comes from the more expensive knights and thus sacrificing 40 points to counter these is a good option.

2) true, but with 2 chukka's (or 4 sometimes if I feel like it), and 2 doomdivers usually the opponent wants to come to me. And in any case, this speedbump is only needed against heavy hitting chargers, the enemy will not have both lots of shooting and lots of heavy hitting chargers. ANd yes, part of my force might hang back to take care of this heavy hitting force, but the rest of the force still goes onwards. I only advise using this tactic if you encounter enemy heavy hitting chargers, of they have heavy hitting infantry (eg swordmasters) then you can do the same trick but one round later.

3) yep, that's why my two big blocks of svg orc each come with their own BO herder.. Yes you will kill your own expensive svg orcs, but I do not need a full unit to win most combats..

4) yes, yes yes, but none are a threat to the svg orc block. And chariots charging them: great! they will also be angled awkwardly and will be ready for a flank charge next turn by well basically anything in my battleline, especially my own chariots or fast cav. The trick lies in angling the snots and only using this if you face an opponent that can hurt you in CC (or, in my case, chargepull my svg orc block). If your opponent will lose CC then the snot block is easily manouvered to the side and the svg orcs can advance fully. And since most O&G armies should have a few more deployment choices than the opponent, you can set this trap up where it hurts the enemy most.

Mozzamanx
25-07-2008, 16:37
Looking through the magic section, I've noticed some incredibly potent stuff which I've never used before:

- Horn of Urgok. This is absolutely incredible, especially for 40pts. I honestly don't know why I've never used it. +1 Leadership for your entire army, and -1 for the enemies? It doesn't even need to be an important character, just bung it on a Night Goblin Big Boss somewhere.
- Nibbla's Itty Ring. Again, a lovely item which is just perfect for smooshing those girly Elves on their Dragons.
- Goblin magic in general. Why does this have so many complaints, it seems awesome! All 6's become 1's. No more Killing Blow, massively increased chance of miscasts, or stopping poison. There are so many cases where this is useful, it's mind boggling. What about an Initiative test or D6 Str10 hits? Lots of fun for Dwarves or Lizards.

A magic heavy Goblin list looks like it would do fine. A 2000pt list could quite comfortably have 8 magic levels, 2 bound spells and enough Dispel dice to stop a Vampire. Couple that with some Fanatics, War Machines and Orcy support, and you have an incredibly nasty list which cracks heads with the best of them.

lparigi34
25-07-2008, 19:43
Looking through the magic section, I've noticed some incredibly potent stuff which I've never used before:

- Horn of Urgok. This is absolutely incredible, especially for 40pts. I honestly don't know why I've never used it. +1 Leadership for your entire army, and -1 for the enemies? It doesn't even need to be an important character, just bung it on a Night Goblin Big Boss somewhere.
- Nibbla's Itty Ring. Again, a lovely item which is just perfect for smooshing those girly Elves on their Dragons.
- Goblin magic in general. Why does this have so many complaints, it seems awesome! All 6's become 1's. No more Killing Blow, massively increased chance of miscasts, or stopping poison. There are so many cases where this is useful, it's mind boggling. What about an Initiative test or D6 Str10 hits? Lots of fun for Dwarves or Lizards.

A magic heavy Goblin list looks like it would do fine. A 2000pt list could quite comfortably have 8 magic levels, 2 bound spells and enough Dispel dice to stop a Vampire. Couple that with some Fanatics, War Machines and Orcy support, and you have an incredibly nasty list which cracks heads with the best of them.

I totally agree with you... but did you read the O&G miscasts table? Totally unforgiving. Not to negate the goodness of the proposed list.

I will say this once again, IMHO the O&G list is pretty cool and can even be quite successful, as I said, I run a pure ORC list and believe me, it has done very well and I am still negating myself O&G best units IMHO: NG's and Squigs.

Shamfrit
25-07-2008, 21:24
-1 :D...

I'd like to point you to the Shooting Phase, and the Combat phase. -1ld makes those loverly little panic tests even better, and much harder for your opponent to hold. It is very useful indeed!

sephiroth87
25-07-2008, 21:58
The horn is pretty situational, in my experience. I've used it basically to burn a dice or two off of my opponent's pile a lot, or right before I use the foot of gork and want them to take a test, or when I've charged. But almost everybody lets it through until the orcs hit combat.

I've found that taking a power stone or two has done me a lot better than the horn. As far as the miscast table goes, it's pretty rough. However, the regular one isn't particularly appealing, either. Animosity and not having good leadership hurts me far worse than miscasting over the course of many games.

To get a good casting phase, I usually need the itty ring, a great shaman with the +1 to cast item, and two goblin shamans. I usually take a black orc bigboss as the general and put the great shaman and the bigboss in the same 30 man orc unit. The first goblin shaman goes in a wolf chariot and the other night goblin shaman on foot either hides in a bolt thrower unit, behind a stand of trees, or hides in another orc infantry unit, depending on what I rolled for spells that game.

Most of the time, 10 casting dice, a couple of powerstones, and the itty ring becomes a pretty robust magic phase. The casters can and do explode sometimes, but it's not terribly often. I try to limit it by using the +1 item on the great shaman and never throwing more than three dice at a spell. I like the orc great shaman better than the goblin one also, simply because many of the direct damage spells are a little easier to get off. I think miscasting on three dice is around 7-8 percent, which isn't terrible. The army doesn't squabble with its spellcasters often, but I miss the leadership 9 warboss against fear causing armies.

Rael
25-07-2008, 22:32
12 Fanatics in 4 units too much?

lparigi34
25-07-2008, 22:51
12 Fanatics in 4 units too much?

Sure.. for your opponent! :evilgrin:

Rael
26-07-2008, 00:15
Just what I like to hear :)

One question though, if they are so effective why don't I ever see people max out on them. I rarely see a NG unit with the full complement of 3 Fanatics.

jpf1982
26-07-2008, 00:34
Well depending on what comp system the tourney organizers are running there are some pretty stiff penalties for every fanatic great than 1 per 15 night goblins so 2 per unit of 30 is okay, but 3 begins to get you penalties. 3 also makes a larger impact on random acts of violence on the board... towards you and your opponent; but still...

Rael
26-07-2008, 00:39
So basically people don't take the full 3 is not to upset opponents and comp.?

Well, I don't feel very bad for them as compared to the armies released after OnG's we need all the help we can get!

kroq'gar
26-07-2008, 03:22
one failed panic check... squish.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-07-2008, 08:43
I've never been a fan of fanatics, they never seem to do a great deal for me, and as pointed out in a current rules thread you actually need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 to get them to hit the enemy unit that set them off (unless they are charging).

Storak
26-07-2008, 10:40
I've never been a fan of fanatics, they never seem to do a great deal for me, and as pointed out in a current rules thread you actually need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 to get them to hit the enemy unit that set them off (unless they are charging).

if this rules interpretation becomes official reading, fanatics turn absolutely useless.

fortunately quite a lot of players have pity for orc players, and wont insist on this interpretation.

the same seems to happen with "we ll show them" results in some groups. players don t enforce the move to be towards the closest unit via the shortest route (causing less massive wheeling...)

Rael
26-07-2008, 12:09
as pointed out in a current rules thread you actually need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 to get them to hit the enemy unit that set them off (unless they are charging).

I didn't start playing OnG's till recently. From my interpretation the unit just stops. I don't really understand how there could be a mis-interpretation. Is this how fanatics were worded in 6th edition? What's all the debating on the subject about, does anyone have a link to that thread?

Rael
26-07-2008, 12:34
does anyone have a link to that thread?

Nevermind, found it.

Jelle
27-07-2008, 02:31
hi all i'm new here, just restarted warhammer and i've been doing very badly to be honest so I decided to look up some tactics and try to improve my play (i learned alot from reading this thread by the way, thanks everyone)

i've only played a few standard games with 2k points since i've had the new list and in one of them i went all out magic because none of us were aware of the rule change (that people can shoot up your shamans if they're not in a unit) at that time. I had nice luck with the magic getting off many valuable spells and won the game because of them (my only convincing win since i restarted so i treasure it)

now that i've read this thread i understand all the hazards involved with o&g magic but i still want to try it really badly because i think the magic phase is interesting and because i think the spells are potent if you can get them through (although i've probably been brainwashed by said streak of good luck)

so how about putting multiple shamans in a black orc unit, then moving the shamans out right before the fighting starts? If that wouldn't work/isn't allowed, is there any other similar trick I could use to protect my shamans?

Mozzamanx
01-08-2008, 21:24
If you keep Shaman's in a unit, Black Orcs are probably the worst choice!

The unit WILL be shot at, since nobody ignores a T3 Lord choice. They will also shoot at Blorcs since they are well 'ard. By putting the Shaman in a fodder unit like Goblins or Orcs, your opponent is forced to split fire, and may not have enough to silence either unit (40 goblins can take alot of bullets). Plus, 'Eadbangs will asplode your very expensive infantry just as easily as the Goblins, so keep the casualties cheap.

Vets, how do you arm Big 'Uns? Light Armour and Shield, for that lovely 4+ save? Or twin choppas to maximise their WS and S boost?

IAmJustMe
01-08-2008, 23:45
Twin choppas all the way. More often then not it's the orcs that are gonna get charged (at least in my case:p), often with units that have a high enough strength to negate the armor, so I think it's better to have more attacks from the survivors. I also think that's one of the things that makes Black Orcs a superior choice since they get to choose what they'll be using depending on the situation. Of course, I use both, and in large numbers.


I have my own question now:

What would be better as a defensive Shaman, a Night Goblin Shaman with SoSS or an Orc with a pair of Dispel Scrolls? I will already have an offensive Orc Shaman with Staff of Badhuum and, points available, Magic War Paint, but he needs a buddy/pee-on. I'm thinking that taking a second Orc would give me a better chance of rolling Waaagh! for spells, plus the two dispel scrolls to stop two enemy spells dead. But Goblin Magic can be quite useful too, and the staff of Sneaky Stealin' still affords a good amount of anti-magic defense. Of course, I almost always take Morks Spirit Totem on my BSB and put him with my Big'Uns for a few rounds of +3 dispel dice.

Jelle
02-08-2008, 02:55
If you keep Shaman's in a unit, Black Orcs are probably the worst choice!

The unit WILL be shot at, since nobody ignores a T3 Lord choice. They will also shoot at Blorcs since they are well 'ard. By putting the Shaman in a fodder unit like Goblins or Orcs, your opponent is forced to split fire, and may not have enough to silence either unit (40 goblins can take alot of bullets). Plus, 'Eadbangs will asplode your very expensive infantry just as easily as the Goblins, so keep the casualties cheap.



hmmm why would people shoot at goblin units just because there's a bunch of shamans in them? The missile hits are automatically assigned to the rank and file troopers right? Or do you mean shooting at a 40 goblin unit just to go for the panic test? I guess that would be conceivable if I had multiple characters in there true...

the reason I thought of black orcs is because i don't want my shamans to be idle 1/6th of turns

actually now that you mention it, if I put my shamans in black orc infantry I wouldn't be able to screen them because the shamans need line of sight to function properly.. ugh. I'd have to take missile fire with one of the worst units to do so, almost as bad as having all your mages have a 1/6 chance of doing nothing was in the first place

thx for your advice, that means I'm pretty much giving up on o&g magic though.. if there's no cure for the shaman animosity it seems unplayable to me.

Jelle
02-08-2008, 03:05
What would be better as a defensive Shaman, a Night Goblin Shaman with SoSS or an Orc with a pair of Dispel Scrolls? I will already have an offensive Orc Shaman with Staff of Badhuum and, points available, Magic War Paint, but he needs a buddy/pee-on. I'm thinking that taking a second Orc would give me a better chance of rolling Waaagh! for spells, plus the two dispel scrolls to stop two enemy spells dead. But Goblin Magic can be quite useful too, and the staff of Sneaky Stealin' still affords a good amount of anti-magic defense. Of course, I almost always take Morks Spirit Totem on my BSB and put him with my Big'Uns for a few rounds of +3 dispel dice.

if you have two shamans and mork's spirit totem already anyway for 7DD, I wouldn't invest any more points in two dispel scrolls or stuff like that. 7DD should at the very least be enough to stop your opponent's most significant spells (and he's probably already a significant underdog to cast anything huge in the entire game)

Also if you really get two mages, spirit totem, 2 dispel scrolls and staff of sneaky stealing and your opponent shows up with zero spellcasting ability won't you feel terrible for wasting so many points?

IAmJustMe
02-08-2008, 03:57
Also if you really get two mages, spirit totem, 2 dispel scrolls and staff of sneaky stealing and your opponent shows up with zero spellcasting ability won't you feel terrible for wasting so many points?

Not "and," I said "or" as in choosing between the two, and in my area it's not uncommon to see 2-4 mages/warrior priests in the opposing armies.


Spell casting is never a waste of points unless you're facing Dwarves with only one caster.

Jelle
02-08-2008, 19:28
well even with "just" 7DD + 2 scrolls I'll still feel like it's heavy overkill but that's just me.. it's probably a good sign for you if you disagree with me anyway ;)

I just usually play with very few defense against magic and never seem to get burned because of it. I find that usually enemy spells do manage to kill some of my models but nothing serious (then again where I play it's extremely rare to see someone show up with 4 mages so we play in different types of games thats for sure)

In your area how about going for mork's spirit totem + staff of sorcery and no dispel scrolls? You'd have 7DD and +1 to all dispel rolls, the staff of sorcery probably gets more and more useful the more dispel dice you have and you have a lot.. Also you could consider giving the spirit totem to cheaper ladz instead of big'uns so that you can pretty much have the +3DD for the entire game. Also if they surprise you and have no magic you've lost 80ish points bad but not catastrophic

IAmJustMe
02-08-2008, 22:27
Good call on the Staff of Sorcery, I hadn't thought of that.:) But yeah, of the opponents I face, most of them tend to field at least two magic users and/or have a few magic items with bound spells, so if I can almost guarentee shutting them down. And if they don't have much magic, well, a necessary gamble, I guess.;)

Of course, then there are the times when one of my Shamans blows himself up with the first (mis)cast of the game, THEN it might be a waste of points.:rolleyes: That's actually happened twice in the six games I've played with O&G. Makes for an interesting game.

Avian
03-08-2008, 02:05
In your area how about going for mork's spirit totem + staff of sorcery and no dispel scrolls?
I've tried that one quite a bit and even against undead with their plethora of single-dice spells, it really didn't do much. I wouldn't take the SoS instead of scrolls as I'd like to have at least one in case of nasty super-spells, but it's okay on a shaman with the 'itty ring if you have another shaman with a scroll.




I didn't start playing OnG's till recently. From my interpretation the unit just stops. I don't really understand how there could be a mis-interpretation. Is this how fanatics were worded in 6th edition? What's all the debating on the subject about, does anyone have a link to that thread?
The debate on that other thread is correct on one spot in that if I travel 8 km towards a border with another country that is exactly 8" away, I have not entered that country, but they have failed to see that the rules specify that the units are halted when they come within 8" of each other, rather than at exactly 8" away from each other. Thus the distances will always be slightly less than 8" (and could be a lot less than 8" in some cases) and an 8" roll is enough for the Fanatic to enter the unit.

Gobbo Lord
03-08-2008, 13:27
12 Fanatics in 4 units too much?


Sure.. for your opponent!

300 points for fanatics, thats a good use of points right there. If your leadership 5 night goblins flee then any unreleased fanatics are killed. They dont even ignore armour anymore.

To be honest i never take them anymore as i believe they are not worth their points these days, the fact you have to put them in overcosted Night Goblin units makes them a definate no go in this edition of the army book for me.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
03-08-2008, 14:05
12 Fanatics in 4 units too much?

It is just silly, I played once a list with 12 fanatics on 2000pts and it was a nightmare for both players, both armies got whiped out from the fanatics only a few goblins survived.

Greetz
G

warlord hack'a
03-08-2008, 19:16
my nigo unit with 3 fanatics pus nigo shaman with mad cap mushrooms has stopped many a charge in it' tracks: best results so far:

1) 8 empire knights with those 2 handed hammers down the drain
2) 4 ironguts dead leaving only ther tyrant against my infantry block, tyrant broke due to my static CR and was run down
3) the popemobile, after my fanatics were through with them the mobile was gone, leaving only the pope, who lost combat and was run down (there is a pattern here somewhere..). Bye bye general in turn 2 of the empire turn

The trick is tu use the devious tactic of letting the fanatics rampage through one of your own units, thus vastly increasing the change of hitting the enemy and of him stopping on top of the fanatics..

P.s. Did i mention the time the fanatics wiped out 5 chosen chaos knights of khorne?

Mozzamanx
05-08-2008, 13:40
I've noticed a large increase in the number of weedy Elf players at the local club, so naturally I would like some advice for smashing their girly heads into the mud.

I would think that Orcs are excellent for taking the Spearmen on, with their T4 and 4+ save making those kills much harder and being awesomely cheap. But how do you deal with Swordmasters? Just shoot em? A Spear Chukka to the flank sounds like a plan...

What about Goblins? Aside from Fanatic bunkers, they don't seem to have much use when they get hit with buckets of ASF attacks.

lasergreger
05-08-2008, 13:51
I would think that Orcs are excellent for taking the Spearmen on, with their T4 and 4+ save making those kills much harder and being awesomely cheap.

As both a High Elf and an O&G player, I would just like to say that you shouldn't trust those orcs that much. I wouldn't be that hard for a Speargirl unit to kill enough to make you run. This comes from experience, my own Speargirls never seizes to impress and surprise me since the new book.


But how do you deal with Swordmasters? Just shoot em? A Spear Chukka to the flank sounds like a plan...

It's a plan, but I would thing a fanatic would do alot more against them rather then hoping to get a flank shot. But then, fanatics are not that reliable are they?

warlord hack'a
05-08-2008, 13:53
swordmasters: chariots, fanatics, blocking their charge with fast cav, try to flank them and of course the big rock to the head works wonders.

woytek
05-08-2008, 15:31
I recently decimated a 20 strong swordmaster unit plus mage with a savage orc big boss in a chariot. He charged in alone in the front and came out of the rear again.

random.brown
05-08-2008, 19:22
He charged in alone in the front and came out of the rear again.

I don't think ANYONE wants to see a Savage Orc Big Boss in a chariot exiting the rear of an Elf...

Warboss Antoni
06-08-2008, 02:21
High elves are a pain for me, but honestly a fanatic or 2 can rough em up before combat. A trick I've seen is take a unit with 1 or 2 fanatics, and let the enemy specail ( corsairs, swordmasters, grave gaurd ect. ) cahrge you. You should kill a few with the fanatics as they pop out and then take few enough casualties to win by CR.


A cheesey trick I've just heard is take 40 vanilla NG. Deploy them in whatever fashion, and reform them to 2X20. Pop 3 fanatics in there and you've released some turn 1.

lasergreger
06-08-2008, 08:38
A cheesey trick I've just heard is take 40 vanilla NG. Deploy them in whatever fashion, and reform them to 2X20. Pop 3 fanatics in there and you've released some turn 1.

You have to have atleast 5 in a rank, so you can't do that.

But apart from fanatics: as some have said above, chariots will work very well since impact hits are resolved before ASF.

Arkabon
06-08-2008, 10:06
Hey to y'all. Not exactly longtime reader of warseer, but at least firsttime poster.

Let me just start by saying that I am NOT an O&G player, just got a friend who is, but I've flipped through the book sometimes to see if I can't find something that can help him win, since he's got a problem with that and he's morale is.... Well, it's lower than a snotling's without the stubborness. Since I am not an O&G player, what I throw out might be very bad ideas, maybe they just sound good on paper or just in my head *shrugs*. Anyways, enough with the intro.

How about a Common Goblin boss with l.armour, shield, wolf mount and he's got lucky's Dirk and Horn of Urgok. Place him then in a strong night goblin regiment, with fanatics and nets. Hopefully, an opposing hero will come along and try killing the gobbo, to get the horn out of the way and then you've got the dirk to help you out killing him, since I figure that most heroes have at least 1 magic items, if not 2, so you get a +1/+2 bonus to strength for 5 points. If you feel it's a bit risky, change the horn with amulet of protectyness and make him go looking for heroes, 'cause, frankly, other heroes will most likely have better saves than him.

And I know that it's been adviced against earlier, but I believe that going a bit into magic is not a bad thing, since if you can get 20+ orcs in combat on your turn, then you get additional PD, and as I've understood, orcs that flee are most often not 20+, so it's not that big of a risk? I mean, if you start with orc regiments at 25-30, then at least some of them will get to combat with 20+ and then, if you've got 2 shamans, then you can actually start whoomping around. And using the Horn in a magic heavy (or perhaps semi-heavy) army is just good, because, if the enemy doesn't dispel it, you've got a LD boost and he lost 1, or if he dispels it, then he's got less DD.

On another note, if you've got a character/unit with MR, will you get that vs. the horn? I would say it seems reasonable, but then I'm not the most experienced player either.

Lastly I'd like to point out the Pipes of Doom. As someone else said, they had used quite succesfully against a bretonnia army. Now, most armies have got some kind of cavalry, so having them with you is IMO, not a bad idea, since if you manage to make a cavalry unit flee, then you've either earned VP (if they fled off the table) or you've won some time, since then the cavalry will be busy rallying, and you can move a bit closer without having the fear of being charged.

Just some random ideas I threw out. Hopefully you'll find something useful in them

Urgat
06-08-2008, 12:42
my nigo unit with 3 fanatics pus nigo shaman with mad cap mushrooms has stopped many a charge in it' tracks: best results so far:

1) 8 empire knights with those 2 handed hammers down the drain
2) 4 ironguts dead leaving only ther tyrant against my infantry block, tyrant broke due to my static CR and was run down
3) the popemobile, after my fanatics were through with them the mobile was gone, leaving only the pope, who lost combat and was run down (there is a pattern here somewhere..). Bye bye general in turn 2 of the empire turn

The trick is tu use the devious tactic of letting the fanatics rampage through one of your own units, thus vastly increasing the change of hitting the enemy and of him stopping on top of the fanatics..

P.s. Did i mention the time the fanatics wiped out 5 chosen chaos knights of khorne?

You wanna brag? My 5 wolves with bow have killed an exalted champion, made flee a unit of ogres, and my snotlings once won a round of combat against bloodletters :p

On the other hand, recently, my fanatics have crossed a unit of NG to reach a chaos charriot, killing 6 gobs and inflicting zero wounds to the charriot. The others then proceded to go back and forth into my own units, never touching once the enemy. Yeay for fanatics!



Hey to y'all. Not exactly longtime reader of warseer, but at least firsttime poster.

Let me just start by saying that I am NOT an O&G player, just got a friend who is, but I've flipped through the book sometimes to see if I can't find something that can help him win, since he's got a problem with that and he's morale is.... Well, it's lower than a snotling's without the stubborness. Since I am not an O&G player, what I throw out might be very bad ideas, maybe they just sound good on paper or just in my head *shrugs*. Anyways, enough with the intro.

You should have posted the battle sizes, it can be important. You should also give us details as to when, according to you, his army starts failing him. Nentheless, I'll try and help (keep in mind I'm not the best of O&G players, though, my only achievement being to boast a rather balanced win/loss ratio against' pretty much everybody I play with)


How about a Common Goblin boss with l.armour, shield, wolf mount and he's got lucky's Dirk and Horn of Urgok. Place him then in a strong night goblin regiment, with fanatics and nets. Hopefully, an opposing hero will come along and try killing the gobbo, to get the horn out of the way and then you've got the dirk to help you out killing him, since I figure that most heroes have at least 1 magic items, if not 2, so you get a +1/+2 bonus to strength for 5 points. If you feel it's a bit risky, change the horn with amulet of protectyness and make him go looking for heroes, 'cause, frankly, other heroes will most likely have better saves than him.

Goblin bosses are not very killy in melee, higher strenght or not, so this tactic really depends on whom you're facing, I believe. No matter what, a vampire, an exalted champion or whatnot will lay waste on you. But the horn tactic is rather good, because if the enemy wants to get the horn, he will have to get close to the fanatics. Only problem (again, sorry :(), is that fanatics aren't particularly terrifying anymore, so it won't be much of a deterrent nowadays. The only thing that will prevent , say, a heavy cavalry unit from just charging through is the fact that your friend my roll low for his fanatics, and he might end his charge on top of one or two. No matter what, THAT would hurt, indeed.
I presonally prefer my goblin bosses to run around on wolves, jumping from unit to unit to lend his Ld where needed (can do the same with orcs on boars, really, it's just I play mostly gobbos only)


And I know that it's been adviced against earlier, but I believe that going a bit into magic is not a bad thing, since if you can get 20+ orcs in combat on your turn, then you get additional PD, and as I've understood, orcs that flee are most often not 20+, so it's not that big of a risk? I mean, if you start with orc regiments at 25-30, then at least some of them will get to combat with 20+ and then, if you've got 2 shamans, then you can actually start whoomping around. And using the Horn in a magic heavy (or perhaps semi-heavy) army is just good, because, if the enemy doesn't dispel it, you've got a LD boost and he lost 1, or if he dispels it, then he's got less DD.
It's all a matter of luck really. If your friend is lucky with his dies, it can go very well. But, unlike other armies, if it goes bad, it's usually catastrophic. Don't count much on specific spells though, he first has to get, say the Waaagh! spell, obviously, and then, it's a 12+ to cast. 12 is the average on 4 dies...


On another note, if you've got a character/unit with MR, will you get that vs. the horn? I would say it seems reasonable, but then I'm not the most experienced player either.
AFAIK, no, MR doesn't apply against your own spells.


Lastly I'd like to point out the Pipes of Doom. As someone else said, they had used quite succesfully against a bretonnia army. Now, most armies have got some kind of cavalry, so having them with you is IMO, not a bad idea, since if you manage to make a cavalry unit flee, then you've either earned VP (if they fled off the table) or you've won some time, since then the cavalry will be busy rallying, and you can move a bit closer without having the fear of being charged.
As in the bretonia exemple, it works best in combination with the horn of Urgok, because most heavy cavalries in the game (besides the O&G ones, that is) have a rather good Ld. So helping the luck a bit might be nice there.


Just some random ideas I threw out. Hopefully you'll find something useful in them

It's always good to have new opinions, and it's particulalry interesting when it comes from a non O&G player.
I understand you play against him? Could you share some of your tactics as to how you beat him? We might work starting from that.