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View Full Version : BT - Can he Take Both FSBlade and the Axe?



Zoolander
15-05-2008, 18:50
This has come up before in another thread, and I've asked around, but even the most experienced Khornate does not have a solid answer for me. So I'm asking only the most experienced players, especially khornates what they think. Even GW store and service number (LOL) didn't know. I'm sure this will make the FAQ when it comes out.

Can a BT take both "weapons"? It seems very cheesey, even if you argue that they are not really weapons, I'd rather not get beat up outside the game store for such shenanigans, but curiosity demands I ask.

Do we have an official answer to this yet?

The second part of this question is - should he? Even if legal, and forget the cheese, should a BT equip both? Is it worth it? I currently run FS Blade, Armour of Khorne, and Spell Breaker. I'd have to lose the Spell Breaker, honestly. What do you think? I think it's a bit overkill to me.

If they don't count as weapons, then keep in mind that all items that affect magic weapons, such as Vanhauls Unmaking and even the BT's own Obsidian Armor will not work on them. I think that suddenly makes daemonic gifts like these rather under priced, IMO. Also, not being weapons opens another can of worms... say that you do encounter those DPs. Not being weapons, just attacks, does this mean that you could, in theory, decide to just use the axe vs them, ignoring the fire sword? Cheesey, yes, but not being weapons means you don't have to use that attack mode either. Magical weapons have that caveat, that you must use them if you can. Abilities often do not. I think I would beat someone up if they tried to argue that, but there will be some people that will say "But these aren't weapons..."

Thanks!

Nurgling Chieftain
15-05-2008, 18:54
By RaW, I think he can take and use both, but I don't think he can turn them off, either!

Bac5665
15-05-2008, 19:18
You can take both and they stack unless both of them say "hand weapon" or some such weapon descriptor as a rule. For example in the new WE FAQ, the spear of twilit says "spear" as a special rule for the spear of twilit. Because you cannot use two weapons at once, if both Khorne weapons say hand weapon, or some such, you cannot use them both.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-05-2008, 19:24
I would say he could take both. Remember...they are VERY clear that Daemonic Gifts are NOT Magical Weapons.

To Zoolander = of course those spells / effects will not work on them - the rules entry at the top of the page "Daemonic Gifts" in the Daemon book specifically SAYS "...and are not affected by spells or abilities that negate or neutralize Magic Items/Weapons" - appx. wording.

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Because they aren't "Weapons/Items" - you CAN take more than one of them (just not the same one twice, as the book explains) for the same Daemon.


This makes sense too...since the Daemon has two (or more in the Keeper's case) hands. The Bloodthirster could easily hold the Flaming Sword in one hand and the Axe with Killing Blow in the other. During battle he's clearly slashing away with both of them in rapid-fire attacks given his battle skill and ferocity. Nothing unfluffy or unrealistic about that.


You'll note that they don't actually have any more than two weapon options anyways...so you would never have a situation where you are trying to have the Greater Daemon holding three weapons in two hands, yet getting the benefits of all three at once (which would be a bit hard to picture or believe).

The most a Keeper can have is Torment Blade in one hand and Etherblade in the other hand.

The most a GUO can have is his Balesword (plus default Plague Flail he holds in his other hand, just like the actual model has).

The most a Lord of Change can have is his Staff of Change - which is just like what his model is holding anyways.

The most a Bloodthirster can have is the Axe of Khorne and the Firestorm Blade...one per hand...which again makes logical sense.

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The important question to have answered via FAQ, etc. is ...when a Daemon takes a Daemonic Gift...can they choose NOT to use that gift in place of their basic "hand weapon" - if they have one - in a given combat ?

An example would be...the Bloodthirsters "Default" weapons are "Whip and Axe" (Hand Weapon). Now if he takes Firestorm Blade which gives +1 STR and Flaming Attacks...and he gets into a combat with an Elf Prince on Mount with Dragon Armor (which would make the Prince immune to the Bloodthirsters flaming attacks)....may he announce (as most other models normally could) at the start of the combat that he is using his Hand Weapon option instead...which would thus be "non-flaming" and only rolled at his basic STR-6, instead of the boosted STR from the Firestorm Blade ?

OR..is he trapped into forever using the Daemonic Gift, Firestorm Blade, once it has been selected during army write-up, etc. ?

MalusCalibur
15-05-2008, 19:30
My perception of the gifts is that yes, you can take more than one of the 'weapon' gifts and gain the bonuses of both, since they are specifically stated to not be magic items and are not divided into categories such as 'Daemon Weapon' etc. However, by the same token, I don't think it would be legal to 'switch off' a gift just because it does not suit you at the time. Because they are not weapons strictly speaking, you cannot elect to not use one of them.


MalusCalibur

Zoolander
15-05-2008, 20:20
My perception of the gifts is that yes, you can take more than one of the 'weapon' gifts and gain the bonuses of both, since they are specifically stated to not be magic items and are not divided into categories such as 'Daemon Weapon' etc. However, by the same token, I don't think it would be legal to 'switch off' a gift just because it does not suit you at the time. Because they are not weapons strictly speaking, you cannot elect to not use one of them.


MalusCalibur

Actually, one could argue that he COULD in fact turn them off BECAUSE they aren't magic weapons (I really don't think he could do this, but someone will invariably make that argument - I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point). But I thank all those that have answered, and I believe you are all correct. I still think the original intention of stating "do not count as magic items" is possibly so that different daemons could take the same gift, as magic items are unique (save for dispel scrolls, etc.). It's possible it was intended that way, or it could just be an oversight - certainly wouldn't be the first time). In any case, though, Gifts are a little underpriced if you ask me.

Then the next question is - do you think it's worth taking both weapons? In place of a third spell destroyer (the two heralds of tzeentch already each have one)?

Nurgling Chieftain
15-05-2008, 20:39
Actually, one could argue that he COULD in fact turn them off BECAUSE they aren't magic weapons...Well, the restriction that you have to use your magical weapon certainly doesn't apply. However, the items don't give any ability to be turned off, and no such ability is inherent in upgrades or gifts.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-05-2008, 21:26
I would not suggest using the Spell Breaker/Destroyer gift on a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change, Zoo.

Use your Tzeentch Heralds for that job, if you really want them (keep in mind that Daemons are easily able to have 8-10 Dispel Dice or more, so you aren't really "hurting" in that department, even if you go without Scrolls/Spellbreakers).


For the B-Thirster...just maximize his killing ability, as that's his main use in the battle. His Magic Resistance (2) and supporting Dispel Dice will more than protect him from direct magical attacks.


There are 3 major builds for the Thirster that I have considered and can recommend. These have been discussed at some length by The Daemonic Legion Forum too...and are pretty highly regarded:


Thirster 1: Obsidian Armor (50), Immortal Fury (25), Firestorm Blade (25)

- Pros, 7 STR-7, Flaming Attacks that always re-roll misses in every round of combat, and a 3+ Armor Save // 5+ Ward Save - with all enemy Magical Weapons in Base Contact with the Thirster being neutralized by the Armor.


Thirster 2: Armor of Khorne (15), Immortal Fury (25), Axe of Khorne (25), Collar of Khorne (15)

- Pros, a cheaper Thirster (530) which still re-rolls misses all the time, has Killing Blow, a 3+ Armor Save // 5+ Ward Save, and Magic Resistance (3). This is perhaps the most ideal set-up against High Elves since they will almost always be running Dragon Armor and if you go the Firestorm Blade route, you cannot harm their characters/mounts/units of Dragon Princes, etc. with your allmighty Thirster. This build helps in that regard.


Thirster 3: Dark Insanity (55), Immortal Fury (25), Armor of Khorne (15)

- Pros, the power of Dark Insanity (2d6+2 Attacks), plus re-rolling any and all misses with that handful of attacks, can result in an uber-killy Thirster. You COULD roll poorly with it, but the "average" should be around 9-attacks per round..hitting on 3+ and re-rolling misses..and wounding most foes on a 2+. That's a LOT of kills. If things go south or just for general ranged protection, etc.. he gets the 3+ Armor Save // 5+ Ward Save to help him out.


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Try one of these three setups and let us know how you fare !

BloodiedSword
15-05-2008, 21:34
I was under the impression that the way the "weapon-like" Gifts were worded was along the lines of "The model ignores Armour Saves in Close Combat" or "The model's attacks count as Flaming" or something like that.

Thus not conflicting with any magic weapon, may be stacked with a magic weapon, and may not be "turned off".

Lijacote
16-05-2008, 06:01
The way I see it, even if he took 3 weapon gifts, it could be explained away with them all merging. A FLAMING KILLING BLOW AXE OF DARK INSANITY OF ACIDIC DEATH comes to mind.

He can take both, and he can't turn them off.

wolsey
16-05-2008, 08:29
Further to this as the bloodthirster comes with heavy armour if you buy him obsidian armour or armour of khorne does he have a 1+ save - there is nothing say that either count as a suitb of armour or that they do not stack. What do you think?

Baragash
16-05-2008, 09:31
@ wolsey: no stacking as the items in question define the saving throw (has a save of 3+ for example) as opposed to adding to it (gains +4 armour save for example)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-05-2008, 09:53
Yeah....that is something one of our Daemonic Legionnaries posted about (the possible 1+ Armor Save on the Thirster') but we all sort of (politely) shouted it down with a combination of "Common Sense" (even GW would not be so insane as to give the B-Thirster the possibility to have a 1+ Armor Save !) ...and RAW (as noted by the above-poster, the Armor Gifts don't say "the Daemons Armor Save is increased by +3, etc.", but instead say "The Daemon has a 3+ Armor Save".


If he has a 3+ Armor Save...then...that's what he has. I don't think it makes any sense that a Thirster could wear "double sets of armor" - just thinking about it "realistically" and putting rules aside for a moment. Obviously they did not plan for a 1+ Armor Save being obtainable for a mere 15-points...that would be crazy.

;-)

Neknoh
16-05-2008, 10:17
Aye, since these items are NOT armour, they replace the save instead of add to the save.

As for the items taking several and being able to turn them off: You can take several, but cannot turn them off.

The items increase the basic stats of the Daemon in question, nothing more, nothing less. Axe of Khorne: Daemon gets Killingblow. Firestorm Blade increases strength with 1 and gives the Daemon flaming attacks as standard. Basically, it doesn't matter whether or not he chooses not to use this weapon or not, because it grants the daemon the Special Rule "Flaming Attacks", it's not a separate Handweapon with "Attacks made by the Firestorm Blade counts as flaming".

PeG
16-05-2008, 11:46
So if the demon gifts change the baseline stats of the demons will he give them away if fighting a character with the speculum that allows for swapping stats?

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-05-2008, 20:51
An interesting question...most people have been saying, for example, that a Bloodthirster with Awesome Strength ("The Daemon's STRENGTH is increased to 10") would still get that STR if he swapped stats with the Speculum.


Example... Thirster is "by default" - STR-6....Gift "increases his STR to 10"..he is now STR-10.

Speculum switches STR-3 of the Wizard/Character with the STR-10 of the boosted Thirster. Empire character is now STR-10.


Look back at the Daemon...he has obtained the STR-3 of the Wizard/Character via the Speculum...but the Speculum does not/can not delete or disrupt the Daemonic Gift "Awesome Strength" as it is not a magic item in the first place...and it is a "constant" effect that lasts all game....thus ...we turn back and read the wording "The Daemon's STRENGTH is increased to 10"...and the Daemon goes from STR-3 back up to STR-10.

So both models would end up with STR-10...which would still be good for the Wizard as he'd have a great chance of harming the otherwise impervious Thirster...but it would also be one rare reason why taking the 75-pt Awesome Strength gift could be useful.


(That's my take, at least)

;)

decker_cky
16-05-2008, 21:02
Fulgrim, it should be S6 for the speculum bearer (he doesn't have awesome strength) and S10 for the bloodthirster (he still has awesome strength).

baphomael
16-05-2008, 23:41
I tend to agree with the idea that daemon weapons dont count as magic items or conventional weapons in the normal sense. Yes, a bloodthirster can take two weapons. *but* I'd say he cant 'turn them off' either.

Hell, even the fluff rationale supports this (especially the fluff on Hellblades) - they are merely extensions of the daemon's body and cannot be dropped anyways. It would be like a hive tyran deciding it wanted to drop whatever weapon it was armed with - its built into the creature itself. Yes, I know, fluff does not equal rules, but this seems to support the notion anyways. Either way, I'm sure it'll eventually be cleared up (anyone wanna take bets on how long?)

Zoolander
17-05-2008, 17:06
Fulgrim, thanks for all your advice and posts.

Here's a wrinkle to this issue. Take this for whatever it's worth...

Last night a GW rep came into the game store to show off the new DE and the new 40k book. The DEs look and sound fantastic according to my buddy! Anyway, He asked the rep the same question and this is what he said:

* They can wield both, as they are not weapons, and they are not affected by effects such as obisidian armor. However, they do not stack, and therefore would have to chose which gift to use in any turn of combat. This is rather odd to me, but he said it will be addressed in the upcoming FAQ, so we shall see.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
17-05-2008, 20:39
Interesting ! That's quite...bizarre..when you think about it. You can take both...as they aren't magic items (basically)...but you can only use one at a time (as if it was a magic item or weapon ) - - - strange ! ? The FAQ is in July, I think.


That doesn't make any sense though...if you think about it.

What they are saying then is that if you took Awesome Strength (STR-10) and Axe of Khorne (Killing Blow), that you would only be able to choose EITHER STR-10 OR Killing Blow at STR-6 to be "active" at any one time.

That makes no sense whatsoever (Common Sense OR GW-Sense !) :eyebrows:

theunwantedbeing
17-05-2008, 20:50
Cant see how combining the gifts can be called "cheesy".
Just like how Fulgrim's-Chosen see's things...it makes no sense that they dont work that way.

Zoolander
17-05-2008, 21:48
Interesting ! That's quite...bizarre..when you think about it. You can take both...as they aren't magic items (basically)...but you can only use one at a time (as if it was a magic item or weapon ) - - - strange ! ? The FAQ is in July, I think.


That doesn't make any sense though...if you think about it.

What they are saying then is that if you took Awesome Strength (STR-10) and Axe of Khorne (Killing Blow), that you would only be able to choose EITHER STR-10 OR Killing Blow at STR-6 to be "active" at any one time.

That makes no sense whatsoever (Common Sense OR GW-Sense !) :eyebrows:


Yeah, I guess the FAQ would settle this debate. I'd continue using them together until then...

BloodiedSword
17-05-2008, 22:51
Doesn't matter what the Rep says if it's not supported by the rules and isn't an official "voice of GW" answer such as on their official FAQs.

Lordmonkey
18-05-2008, 02:09
I don't even feel there is an issue here. So a Bloodthirster is wielding both a firestorm blade and an Axe of Khorne. Even forgetting for a moment that they aren't even magical weapons and, by RAW, this is perfectly legal, it's a 'thirster.

They wield two weapons anyway.

If you still aren't convinced, perhaps the 'thirster could have a Firestorm Axe of Khorne? ;)

Zoolander
19-05-2008, 05:00
Doesn't matter what the Rep says if it's not supported by the rules and isn't an official "voice of GW" answer such as on their official FAQs.

Exactly, and as I pointed out, he stated it was a question that has been brought up and will be appearing in the upcoming FAQ. Until then, party on! I brought it up because it was just interesting. Since I asked, I am more convinced he should be able to wield both. But I also think Gifts are a little underpriced since they are immune to all magic item destorying spells/items. :angel:

Delicious Soy
20-05-2008, 02:20
An interesting question...most people have been saying, for example, that a Bloodthirster with Awesome Strength ("The Daemon's STRENGTH is increased to 10") would still get that STR if he swapped stats with the Speculum.


Example... Thirster is "by default" - STR-6....Gift "increases his STR to 10"..he is now STR-10.

Speculum switches STR-3 of the Wizard/Character with the STR-10 of the boosted Thirster. Empire character is now STR-10.


Look back at the Daemon...he has obtained the STR-3 of the Wizard/Character via the Speculum...but the Speculum does not/can not delete or disrupt the Daemonic Gift "Awesome Strength" as it is not a magic item in the first place...and it is a "constant" effect that lasts all game....thus ...we turn back and read the wording "The Daemon's STRENGTH is increased to 10"...and the Daemon goes from STR-3 back up to STR-10.

So both models would end up with STR-10...which would still be good for the Wizard as he'd have a great chance of harming the otherwise impervious Thirster...but it would also be one rare reason why taking the 75-pt Awesome Strength gift could be useful.


(That's my take, at least)

;)
I don't think I followed you 'round that bend.

The Awesome strength Gift says 'the daemon has S10.' not counts as, not 'is always S10' but simply has. As its not a magic weapon it must then mean that it merely changes the BT's profile to S10. Which in the case of the speculum, it exchanges with the Empire hero. The only way it could get any clearer is if they changed it to 'the daemon a Strength Value of 10 in its profile' which is the end result anyway and wouldn't really change anything.

Lijacote
20-05-2008, 10:50
What they are saying then is that if you took Awesome Strength (STR-10) and Axe of Khorne (Killing Blow), that you would only be able to choose EITHER STR-10 OR Killing Blow at STR-6 to be "active" at any one time.

That makes no sense whatsoever (Common Sense OR GW-Sense !) :eyebrows:

Quite, it doesn't make sense. Awesome Strength is not a Daemonic Weapon Gift, so I wouldn't see anyone, GW or not, making a deal out of it.