PDA

View Full Version : Exorcising daemons, purging mutations and warding off unwanted gifts.



MrBigMr
16-05-2008, 10:13
Are such things possible? Can a daemon be driven out of a person without burning it alive (assuming the daemon hasn't devoured the soul already, like if the person had made a deal for sharing his/her body with it)? Is there other ways of getting rid of mutations other than hacking them off? If the gods gift someone with something they don't want ("Oh no, I have tentacles coming out of my ears"), is there ways of getting rid of such things?

All forms of manipulation will count, so not just Imperial idiocies. So can a sorcerer/psycher try to purge a mutation or a gift from the body of a person with his/her powers? Sort of psychic plastic surgery and root canal. Will the mere cutting off the unwanted piece work without having to take some extra with it, so if one has a daemonic blade coming out of the palm of the hand, cutting the hand open and removing the blade would help rather than having to hack the entire hand off and replacing it with bionics?

What if the gift is something that can be summoned. I don't know about 40K nor mortals in general, but in WHFB daemon armybook said that a daemon with wings can have them come out of the back when needed. So if a person has such a gift, how could they be removed? Will cutting the wings once out remove them permanently, or will they regenerate back?

Is there ways for a person to protect him/herself from sudden, unwanted mutations and gifts, even when working for Chaos (I mean, Abaddon & Co. don't have tentacles, chainsaw growing out of the groin or anything, just more general boosts).

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 10:22
The Star Child could remove Gifts and mutations in the old Realms of Chaos books if a Sensei with the appropriate power used it on a Chaos champion.

Other than that and more direct amputations of the obvious physical mutations, the answer is no. Servants of Chaos are taking a gamble by doing so and don't get to cherry pick what they get.

TheBigBadWolf
16-05-2008, 10:28
When the Emperor was still up and about, some types of minor mutations were tolerated, as for removing them, i would say that they are cut off and replaced with bionics, or covered up, ive never seen them removed before.

Faustburg
16-05-2008, 10:34
I'd imagine heavy surgery and severe disfiguring scaring will be in order to remove an unwanted mutation given as a gift.

As for possession, it takes a while, and a good investment of energy, for a possessing deamon to reform the body of it's victim into its own image, and if it is exorsised before that is completed, the body could reasonably be saved. Still, changes wrought will be physical, real alterations of reconstituted flesh and bone, not just ectoplasmic add-ons that goes 'poofh!' when the daemon leaves.

As for followers of Chaos, it just comes down to will power. If Tzeentch himself wakes up one morning and decides it would be a larf to give you the head of a hippopotamus, there is not much you can do about it, but for the ambient mutagenic effect of the warp when hanging around on a daemon world, it seems to be enough to just grit your teeth and say No! to tentacles growing out of your ears. That is, unless you want them, or are a weak willed slave creature on hte bottom of the hierarchy.

pookie
16-05-2008, 10:36
as far as Possesion is concerned, yes the Dameon can be driven out, this usually has one of two effects iirc.
1) it kills the Host
2) they become a Illuminatae (sp), see the Exocist chapter of Marines, or the Inq Wars novels for examples of how this is possible and the effects it has.

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 10:39
In the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex it says the Chaos Marines have survived largely due to retaining some sense of purpose, whether that be revenge against the Imperium or some personal more esoteric goal. The Thousand Sons initially during the Heresy resisted mutation and it was only when they were in the Eye that the inevitable results of long term Chaos exposure started manifesting.

In the Realms of Chaos books, Chaos followers gained Gifts or mutations depending on how successful they were. Gifts were steps towards daemonhood, mutations (even beneficial ones) towards spawndom. It was possible however to be successful and be unlucky and gain a mutation. A lot was based on random rolls in the RoC books, to reflect the capriciousness of Chaos.

MrBigMr
16-05-2008, 11:17
Is it possible to use psychic powers to "unmutate", or return the body to more or less its original state before all that happened to it? If you can't use Warp energy to suddenly grop a pair of horns, certainly you can also make them ago away, right? Haven't there been plenty of talk about sorcerers and psychers (the Big E for one) altering their form to hide. Or is this just an illusion sort of "it's about that time I noticed my companion was an 8' god-emperor of mankind."

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 11:28
No. If it were as simple and as easy as that there would have been no need for Ahriman to come up with something as extreme as the Rubric. There are no easy fixes when dealing with Chaos.

MvS
16-05-2008, 11:37
Well I think there are mutations and then there are MUTATIONS.

If your DNA has been fundamentally wrecked by exposure to raw warp to such a degree that you are a mutant then I doubt that faith or normal psychic interference would 'cure' you. There are just too many mutants within the Imperium for this to be the case.

If, on the other hand, we are talking about supernatural mutations that are present only because you are possessed or becuas eof sustained outside influence that can conceivably be cut of (like a curse maybe?), then perhaps it is curable.

In the daemonhunters Codex we have story about an aged Inquisitor giving a lecture to a whole room of Interrogators, and it turns out that he had been possessed and had expelled the daemon through faith and pain. He doesn't have any mutations, just scarring.

But the imagery is mutable as Chaos it seems, because the Excorcists Chapter are forcefully possessed by daemons then excorcised, and there is a reference to them being given surgery to remove any persistent mutations left behind by their ordeal.

In the Inquisitor encyclopedia that BLP released, and I believe in the roleplay game too, there are detailed references to the sorts of powers wielded by various psykers. Some are prognosticators who can see the future. Some are biomancers who can change their cellular structure, or even DNA, to make their bodies and other biological things become any shape they please - although I imagine the concentration needed to do this to oneself is difficult enough, let alone doing it to anyone else. More likely you would turn your target into a mutant or dead slush.

Others are telepaths who read minds and I assume dominate minds. The there are Telekines who can throw stuff around. What else? There are those who have connections to the Warp who tend to be more radical/illegal. These can be divided into those who can draw from the Warp and let it spill around (daemonologists I suppose) and those who can excorcise daemons. I think there might be pyromancers as well, but I forget.

MrBigMr
16-05-2008, 11:49
So, apart from the Emperor and such, no playing Jesus and fixing people?

But like I said, lets think outside of the Imperial box. Various Eldar, Chaos sorcerers, etc. Ahriman's rubric was a larger in scale and wasn't it more about making the legion immune, rather than fixing an eye growing out of one person's hand or something like that. Can Chaos gods do it? If one does great sacrifices, proves his/her worth or something else, or simply challenges some great daemon in one feat or another, or binds a great deamon under his/her dominance, can they take back the gift they gave?

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 11:55
If it were a simple matter of magicking away each individual mutation, then the Thousand Sons would already be effectively be immune as it would be a straightforward matter to treat each and every mutation. Getting anything from a Chaos god as a patron is a gift. Champions do not get to pick and choose. Some mutations and gifts may be detrimental while others beneficial, and the champions have to deal with what they get as either way it is a boon from their god. Asking a patron to take back what they have given can be considred offensive. In any case, champions are never in the position of requesting anything from their god. They do things in the hopes of attracting their god's attention, or if they're lucky they get given tasks to do. What reward they get, if any, is entirely up to their patron. It isn't a business relationship but a master servant relationship.

In short, stop looking for easy fixes or a way to have your cake and eat it too. Chaos worship is a path to quick power but it is also a way to getting piled on with detrimental horrific mutations that cripple you or at best just disfigure. That is why siding with Chaos is a gamble, one which the vast majority ultimately end up losing.

biggreengribbly
16-05-2008, 11:56
Can Chaos gods do it? If one does great sacrifices, proves his/her worth or something else, or simply challenges some great daemon in one feat or another, or binds a great deamon under his/her dominance, can they take back the gift they gave?

Never look a Gift...god in the mouth. They tend to take offence :p

MrBigMr
16-05-2008, 12:17
If it were a simple matter of magicking away each individual mutation, then the Thousand Sons would already be effectively be immune as it would be a straightforward matter to treat each and every mutation.
I don't think it's impossible to treat them, but while today a simple flu can be treated, people are working all the time in coming with an universal remedy for it. I can imagine Ahriman and the like coming constantly imparient with the mutations and deciding to deal with the problem on a one go.


Getting anything from a Chaos god as a patron is a gift. Champions do not get to pick and choose. Some mutations and gifts may be detrimental while others beneficial, and the champions have to deal with what they get as either way it is a boon from their god.
And what about such as the Soul Drinkers or what ever the "using Chaos to fight Chaos for the greater glory of the Imperium" chapter was called. When they get horns and such, do they just bent to the will or what? And don't the Iron Warriors fend of mutations via hack'n'replace method?


Asking a patron to take back what they have given can be considred offensive. In any case, champions are never in the position of requesting anything from their god. They do things in the hopes of attracting their god's attention, or if they're lucky they get given tasks to do. What reward they get, if any, is entirely up to their patron. It isn't a business relationship but a master servant relationship.
If a Chaos champion can turn his back on the gods, kill his fellow marines and even blow up a planet belonging to Slaanesh without any sudden bursting into flames for heresy against the dark gods, then what good are they. If the gods could just wake up one day and decide to give just random people tentacles, horns and extra maws, then why don't they? Surely there's more at play than merely the will of the gods? Like you said, one has to attract attention, be open for such things in hope of a cool gift. Not just anyone can get them.

And why haven't some of the special characters and such gifted with freaky stuff? Ok, Lucius and Typhus is pretty gruesome, but Abaddon, Kharn and Bile are far from a horrific monstrosity of Chaos, as are many others who have served Chaos since the Heresy.


In short, stop looking for easy fixes or a way to have your cake and eat it too. Chaos worship is a path to quick power but it is also a way to getting piled on with detrimental horrific mutations that cripple you or at best just disfigure.That is why siding with Chaos is a gamble, one which the vast majority ultimately end up losing.
Lets not get offensive here. There are far more ways of working for Chaos than the pure dedication to the whims of the gods. Many use Chaos for their own gains without even looking for daemonhood or anything. But if suddenly such a person was to sprout horns without any divine intervention (lets say some daemon plays a cruel joke on him/her or a sorcerer casts some evil magicks) and he/she wanted to get rid of them.

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 12:27
I don't think it's impossible to treat them, but while today a simple flu can be treated, people are working all the time in coming with an universal remedy for it. I can imagine Ahriman and the like coming constantly imparient with the mutations and deciding to deal with the problem on a one go.


Not correct. The 2nd ed. Chaos Codex mentions how they were horrified as the mutations were affecting more and more of the Legion even to the point of the sorcerors themselves. It wasn't simply a matter of them getting impatient about having to play doctor again. With Magnus being elevated to daemon prince, the humanity of the Legion was being overcome.



And what about such as the Soul Drinkers or what ever the "using Chaos to fight Chaos for the greater glory of the Imperium" chapter was called. When they get horns and such, do they just bent to the will or what? And don't the Iron Warriors fend of mutations via hack'n'replace method?

The Exorcists are what you are referring to. They are the equivalent of Possessed. They aren't the equivalent of a champion getting a mutation or gift from their patron god.

The Iron Warriors do hack off their physical mutations and replace them, but that only works for the physical mutations one can hack off. Ultimately it still isn't a simple matter and isn't a way to have your Chaos without side effect as you seem to be trying to get.



If a Chaos champion can turn his back on the gods, kill his fellow marines and even blow up a planet belonging to Slaanesh without any sudden bursting into flames for heresy against the dark gods, then what good are they.

If you're talking about Daemonworld and that champion, he was a Champion of Chaos Undivided, not a Champion of Slaanesh. Champions of Chaos Undivided can act against the interests of a particular god because they are not beholden to only one god. In their pandering to each god, they over time most likely have acted against every god.



If the gods could just wake up one day and decide to give just random people tentacles, horns and extra maws, then why don't they? Surely there's more at play than merely the will of the gods? Like you said, one has to attract attention, be open for such things in hope of a cool gift. Not just anyone can get them.

It takes an investment of energy from the Chaos gods to give people gifts, mutations, or Marks. Even though such is a tiny investment, it is still more effort and attention than most mortals ever warrant. Mutations gained by just exposure to ambient warp energy is a different matter and operates more like exposure to mutagens: the more exposure the more likely you are to develop something though it is still random.



And why haven't some of the special characters and such gifted with freaky stuff? Ok, Lucius and Typhus is pretty gruesome, but Abaddon, Kharn and Bile are far from a horrific monstrosity of Chaos, as are many others who have served Chaos since the Heresy.

Fabius Bile is serving his own goals. As I already said earlier, in the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex it states the Chaos Marines have kept themselves so relatively free from mutation and madness for so long partly because of their intense focus and purpose. In Bile's case, he is driven to create a genetic masterpiece and he is utterly mercenary and not a follower of any specific god. Abaddon while Marked by all 4 gods is ultimately focused on the very material world goal of overthrowing the Imperium.




There are far more ways of working for Chaos than the pure dedication to the whims of the gods. Many use Chaos for their own gains without even looking for daemonhood or anything.

Those using Chaos merely as a means to an end either end up as Chaos Undivided champions or they are never Marked period. Either way still opens up the possibility of detrimental mutations either due to gifts from lesser patrons other than the Big 4, or through long term exposure to the warp.

MrBigMr
16-05-2008, 13:31
Ultimately it still isn't a simple matter and isn't a way to have your Chaos without side effect as you seem to be trying to get.
When have I said that? When have I said anything about not having side effects or even any taint at all? What am I trying to get? To whom I'm trying to get it? Myself (oh, Tzeentch, gimme the results of the match finals)? Some army fluff crap (I can model my armies to have as much or little mutations as I want without having to explain it to anyone)?

I'm merely talking about the physical manifestations of Chaos mutations and/or gifts, not their deeper meanings nor removal of Chaos corruption as a whole. I don't think Khorne much cares whether his Champion who suddenly sprouts horns decides to get rid of them (especially if they're not gifts). The point is, how can one do this? Mere sawing would be one result, but one would need plenty of surgery to get his skull fixed. And would this stop the horns from growing back? Is some slight biomancery or something just too advanced for 40K? The Eldar can grow new wraithbone bionic limbs via a Bonesinger, but can't they heal mutated flesh, even if merely as a cosmetic procedure?

Caelnaethon
16-05-2008, 13:54
Change is change. If a sorceror of Tzeentch can turn a normal, chaos-free person into a Spawn in a couple of seconds, then surely he can revert the occasional horn or tentacle-arm. Didn't Mortarion sculpt his Daemon world into a replica of his old homeworld, Barabus? Wouldn't exactly work if he couldn't keep it from Nurglising.

El_Machinae
17-05-2008, 00:26
It's not fair, but most people don't discern between a cancerous lump and the mark of the warp. Burn them all.

Realisitically, a cancerous lump should be quite treatable with good medicine.

Iracundus
17-05-2008, 08:57
Change is change. If a sorceror of Tzeentch can turn a normal, chaos-free person into a Spawn in a couple of seconds, then surely he can revert the occasional horn or tentacle-arm. Didn't Mortarion sculpt his Daemon world into a replica of his old homeworld, Barabus? Wouldn't exactly work if he couldn't keep it from Nurglising.

It is always easier to mess something up than to repair something, particularly when you're talking about biology. Turning a person into Chaos spawn isn't the sorceror choosing to add stuff of his own choosing. It is exposing the person to a large amount of warp energy. What happens after that, is purely a result of the person's own fortitude and whatever random mutations the warp generates.

The power of Daemon Princes to reshape inanimate matter into a world of their own choosing isn't the same as what we're talking about here which is generating or undoing specific mutations in one individual.


Realisitically, a cancerous lump should be quite treatable with good medicine.

That is assuming if the mutation behaves like normal biology. Not all mutations are surgically removable or necessarily medically treatable. Take the old RoC mutation of say Burning Body for example. There's nothing to cut out, and a constantly smoldering body certainly is a violation of physics and biology.