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Mozzamanx
16-05-2008, 14:02
G'day,

many people are complaining about how rubbish the new Daemon Prince is, and how the Greater Daemons are just better. Well, after reading it, I think I found a suitably nasty combo for our friend.

Daemon Prince- Mark of Tzeentch, Level 1 Magic, Many Armed Monstrosity, Master of Sorcery.
Comes to just over 450pts, and it gives you a fairly horrible combat monster.

Take the lore of Fire, and pick Flaming Sword- with the rest of a Tzeentch list, your opponent should have other stuff to dispel before you roll for this one.
If you get the cast off, you have a model with 8 strength 8 attacks, hitting on a 2. This means you will reliably score 5-6 wounds on ANY target. :D


Alternatively, a Nurgle one can be quite disgusting:

Daemon Prince- Mark of Nurgle, Level 1 Magic, Many Armed Monstrosity, Winged Horror.
Again, just over 450pts.

This time, if you can cast Miasma of Pestilence, then you get 7 strength 5 attacks, which averages about 4 kills a round. However, this time you can fly, and you are pretty much immune to any return attacks.


Any other combos out there?

Von Wibble
16-05-2008, 16:11
Armed monstrosity, eternal hatred and winged horror, with levels optional is better in killing power than any baseline greater daemon (but not after they pay for upgrades), and also somewhat cheaper.

But for me a GD is preferable simply because for 100-200 more points I get level 4 magic and a model that is much harder to kill, in addition to the very nice abilities. Only possible exception is that in a pure Nurgle force, the battlefield role and abilities of a GUO are very different so the DP can offer a different skill set.

RobG
17-05-2008, 02:08
I was expecting this thread to be just a picture of a daemon price model being used as a paperweight.

Delusionist
17-05-2008, 07:47
Try use the search engine, I created the same thread a couple of days ago.

I'm trying to come up with working solutions for daemon princes myself (mainly slaanesh ones). I do think Princes could be used effectively, but I have to try them before I can tell if they really work.

stampy
17-05-2008, 07:53
Why bother trying to make a daemon prince work when the 4 greater daemons are perfect for the role of big badass army general in the first place?

isidril93
17-05-2008, 07:55
actually i think that i will be using a daemon prince myself since after i finish my 1500pts army i will have only 500pts to spend and my normal greater daemopn comes in at around 670pts

Finnigan2004
17-05-2008, 14:13
I got tired of a holding a sword arm that I was gluing on, so I propped it up using my daemon prince. Other than that, I can not honestly find any uses for my daemon princes in the new book. I don't mind taking non optimal choices, but the daemon prince is so inferior that I just can't do it.

theunwantedbeing
17-05-2008, 14:27
His advantages seem to be....
...cheaper
...not a large target
...faster than the great unclean one

There are a few combinations you can use with him that are simply cheaper variants of what you can do with a greater daemon.

riven5
17-05-2008, 16:06
I would consider using one against heavy shooty armies such as Dwarves. However, using a fourth Herald is also mighty tempting.

DullMentalRacket
17-05-2008, 17:37
i had a huge amount of success using a stream of bile daemon prince in my nurgle daemon army. So much in fact the nerf might seem justified for him. Although, i think the str of the template went up in the new book...

Gralph!?!
17-05-2008, 18:30
one of the main issues i have with the daemon princes entry is that by taking the mark of whatever you get absolutly no benefit to it apart from being able to take 50pts of something a greater daemon could have. pointless. as such an undivided daemon prince with no magic levels is the best way as it is cheaper and can still cause alot of damamge with it s base states. personally i will be taking the ether blade upgrade along with immortal fury so that i can take on scary knight units and support other units. so points for points he is alot more effective than a greater daemon (in my opinion) as he still has alot of attacks, is very fast and is very good at supporting other things.

as if you take marks and the full wizard level then he will be fery expensive and for that it is much better to take a greater daemon for the improved stats and better gifts. as 300 basic, then the level 2 and mark of nurgle for example and then many armed monstrousity and stream of bile you have a daemon prince worth a whoping 485pts. okay it has 7 attacks, a breath attack and is a level 2 wizard but it is still a bit crap for its points.

Finnigan2004
17-05-2008, 18:51
It looks more promising than many builds Gralph, but I can get a fully kitted bloodthirster for 65 points more... :wtf: .

Gralph!?!
17-05-2008, 19:07
like i said it is promising but who in there right mind wouldn't just take a greater daemon instead? thats why the orcy player in me likes to keep my characters cheap. as i have already said the daemon prince is a great choice IF you do not bother taking magic level nor the marks of chaos as then they cost 375 points at the most which is nearly half of what a fully kitted out greater daemon will cost. the way i see it, leave the magic to the specialists and leave the combat to what are good at combat already.

Znail
18-05-2008, 00:30
Hmm, taking a 300-375 point daemon prince does seem a decent option to try sometime.

Hive Fleet Spectra
18-05-2008, 08:18
That is the option I was looking at as well Gralph, with that setup at least he would come in useful versus armoured targets and at 375pts not 2 badly costed. The biggest problem for me is that he takes up a Lord slot, regardless of points cost in a 2000pts army you can't have a prince and a greater deamon, and when made to choose the majority of players will, ultimatley, choose the greater deamon nine times out of ten.

I think you are exagerating also Finnigan as 65pts more from Gralphs build would not even cover the basic cost of the thirster. Fully kitted out would be more along the lines of 175pts more than the prince, which is a substantial amount of points in a deamonic army. You could buy five flamers for this many points or whatever you may wish to purchase. Basically put if you are going for the deamon prince, try to keep him as cheap as possible, while retaining his effectiveness in combat. At the end of the day he has respectable stats and I would never rule out any option in an army, I think sometimes it is easy for people to follow the masses and rule out options just because others reckon it to be a 'useless' option, which I don't believe is true at all.

I'm sure there are other options that could be useful as a cheaper alternative. Marking the prince, in most cases, will be useless so I would stick with undivided so you have a larger point allowance. I shall look more into this as I learn how to use my own army.

Gralph!?!
18-05-2008, 13:10
sorry i thought you were looking at the nurgly one before.
but yeah the mark system and magic are ultimatly pointless on a daemon prince as they are vastly over pointed (as are level 1 wizards on heralds) as you are paying 50pts for what? a power dice, a dispel dice and a single spell which for the most part will be useless. in my opinion keep to what you are designed for. why bother taking for example a nurgle herald on palaquin as a battle standard bearer with full upgrades a big expensive banner and making him a level 1 wizard. utterly pointless, in an army where points matter a great deal then i wouldn't bother with upgrading stuff to the max as if you do that you are wasting alot of points and in doing so the army will suffer alot.

Delusionist
30-05-2008, 07:03
Did some math for the daemon princes. Compared Etherblade, Many armed monstrosiry and Immortal Fury+Soul Hunger (going to use wings on mine I think).

Many armed monstrosity ain't really hat good, slightly better against hoards than Immortal+Soul, but only when you reach the second round.

Etherblade seem really good and was better than Immortal+Soul against some units even in the first round.

Etherblade+Immortal seems like a good option though and I might try that out.

Then some thoughts about magic. For mono god armies Princes are the only way to get other magic than their own lore into tha game, right? Sure princes are undivided, but at least they don't worship another god. For Slaanes this means that princes are the only way of getting that sweet Doom and Darkness (sure hes just lvl2, but still).

Another thing I might try out is Flaming sword (is there anything illegal about this, don't have the BRB on me atm).

Another thing I like about the Princes is the fluff. They allow me to write a really long fluff from cradle to daemonhood and beyond, and I can't say no to that. And on top of that it allows me to field a Warriors of Chaos army led by the same character before he became a daemon, and in the end have a huge chaos amry (Mortal and Daemon) led by my Prince (I might have to play them as two separate armies, but it would look great)

sulla
30-05-2008, 14:03
Try use the search engine, I created the same thread a couple of days ago.

I'm trying to come up with working solutions for daemon princes myself (mainly slaanesh ones). I do think Princes could be used effectively, but I have to try them before I can tell if they really work.

I imagine a flyer with siren song would be pretty handy most games...

logan054
30-05-2008, 14:44
G'day,

many people are complaining about how rubbish the new Daemon Prince is, and how the Greater Daemons are just better. Well, after reading it, I think I found a suitably nasty combo for our friend.

Daemon Prince- Mark of Tzeentch, Level 1 Magic, Many Armed Monstrosity, Master of Sorcery.
Comes to just over 450pts, and it gives you a fairly horrible combat monster.

Take the lore of Fire, and pick Flaming Sword- with the rest of a Tzeentch list, your opponent should have other stuff to dispel before you roll for this one.
If you get the cast off, you have a model with 8 strength 8 attacks, hitting on a 2. This means you will reliably score 5-6 wounds on ANY target. :D


Alternatively, a Nurgle one can be quite disgusting:

Daemon Prince- Mark of Nurgle, Level 1 Magic, Many Armed Monstrosity, Winged Horror.
Again, just over 450pts.

This time, if you can cast Miasma of Pestilence, then you get 7 strength 5 attacks, which averages about 4 kills a round. However, this time you can fly, and you are pretty much immune to any return attacks.


Any other combos out there?

couldnt i just take a lord of change with master of sorcery which is 475pts and have the same effect with a extra spell, higher strength, wounds, toughness, be able to fly and also the added bonus of being able to use more dice per spell?

Kroxigore
31-05-2008, 22:32
I think one advantage, DP have is, that they enable you to have 3 heralds. I just love the bonusses, that they give to units. As you have to take 3 Core units, you can put a herald into each of them. I think of playing Slaanesh and I think, that the difference between a unit of Daemonettes with a herold and a unit of daemonettes without a herold is far too big.
Having said that, I'm still not sure, if I will take a KoS or a DP, but I will think about it.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
31-05-2008, 23:54
How do they enable you to have 3 Heralds, and Greater Daemons don't ?

Simply put...BOTH selections allow you to have 3 Heralds.

You don't HAVE to "uber-out" your Greater Daemon, after all.


Take a Bloodthirster - give him Immortal Fury and Armor of Khorne. His total cost is now under 500-pts.

---

Now take 3 Herald at 150-200 pts each.


Even in a 2000-pt game, you should have 900+ points to spend on the rest of your army.


There's no excuse to take the DP unless you want to make life harder on yourself.


No causing Terror Daemon Princes....:rolleyes:....murmur, mumble, grumble....

Kroxigore
01-06-2008, 11:11
How do they enable you to have 3 Heralds, and Greater Daemons don't ?

Simply put...BOTH selections allow you to have 3 Heralds.

You don't HAVE to "uber-out" your Greater Daemon, after all.



I must have got that wrong, I thought, that Greater Daemons were still two heroes-choices :rolleyes: . This way, the only reason, that I see, why one should take a DP is the ability to hide it in a unit. If you play against a tooled-out gunline, even Greater Daemons aren't that safe. Another reason for me would be the ability to fly, if you want to use the DP for warmachine-hunting and you don't play tzeench. Other than that, I see no reason to take one.

giner
01-06-2008, 11:22
Sorry to put another hole in your argument or points but DPs can't join units either. Combine that with furies being able to adequetely hunt warmachinesand it is useless.

Kroxigore
01-06-2008, 11:42
Sorry to put another hole in your argument or points but DPs can't join units either.

No problem! :D I really have to get that armybook (didn't have the time to buy one by now)! Never mind, this way, how darn pointless is a daemon prince? I guess GW wanted to sell more Greater Daemons...

Gralph!?!
01-06-2008, 21:15
Sorry to put another hole in your argument or points but DPs can't join units either. Combine that with furies being able to adequetely hunt warmachinesand it is useless.

yeah... we... um... we actually figured that out 5 posts back, try READING the entire thread, k?

either way an ether blade and flight is the set up i used against dwarfs and i gotta admit, the daemon prince makes for a great support unit in a slaanesh army which has a severe lack of hitting power against things with armour (dwarfs, knights, chaos and generally anything with a shield and a hand weapon)

Daemonfun
02-06-2008, 13:54
Daemon Princes are just plain rubbish!!!!
3o0 pnts for something that aint even as good as a vampire lord at 205pnt????? Plus the vampire is already lvl 2 wizard. You PAY another 85pnts that abillity. Oh and lets not forget the 75pnts of gifts???? COME on he is a lord choice. Oh don't get me started on the additional 35pnt you pay just to praise a god! its like "here you go, here s 35pnt so I can take a gods specific gift".
just think guys daemon prince of Tzeench 300+35+85+75 = 495pnts
Greater Daemon Tzeench 450pnts already level 2 with abillities included can fly and has much better stat line. Its a no brainer

But I still Love the list overall

Embalmed
02-06-2008, 14:51
While it's certainly not impossible to make a DP into a decent fighting machine I do belive it is impossible to make them worth their points. Compare if you please with a Ogre Tyrant w Tenderizer or a kitted out Vampire Lord.

If I were to use one I think the etherblade is the way to go,and wings (cost permitting) for taking down misc nasties.

foehammer888
02-06-2008, 16:56
just think guys daemon prince of Tzeench 300+35+85+75 = 495pnts
Greater Daemon Tzeench 450pnts already level 2 with abillities included can fly and has much better stat line. Its a no brainer Not to mention the following:

Herald of Tzeentch + 50 points of gifts (iridescent corona, master of scorcery) + chariot of tzeentch = roughly 220sih points.

Other than killing fully armored knights, this guy can fill the exact same role as the daemon prince of tzeentch at less than half the cost. This guy

- causes D6 S4 impact hits
- causes a S3 flaming hit to any model in base contact before blows are struck (likely 4 S3 hits)
- gets 2 S3 attacks from the screamers
- gets 2 S3 attacks from the herald
- is a lvl 2 wizard
- knows all the spells from a particular lore
- if the lore of fire or beasts is chosen, the herald can become better in combat from bear's anger or flaming sword
- flies
- the herald has a 4+ ward
- only costs a hero slot

While not fantastic, that's still 8 S3 attacks (4 of which auto-hit) and D6 S4 hits. Not to mention the magic potential.

Foehammer

Razhem
02-06-2008, 18:19
Not to mention the following:

Herald of Tzeentch + 50 points of gifts (iridescent corona, master of scorcery) + chariot of tzeentch = roughly 220sih points.

Other than killing fully armored knights, this guy can fill the exact same role as the daemon prince of tzeentch at less than half the cost. This guy

- causes D6 S4 impact hits
- causes a S3 flaming hit to any model in base contact before blows are struck (likely 4 S3 hits)
- gets 2 S3 attacks from the screamers
- gets 2 S3 attacks from the herald
- is a lvl 2 wizard
- knows all the spells from a particular lore
- if the lore of fire or beasts is chosen, the herald can become better in combat from bear's anger or flaming sword
- flies
- the herald has a 4+ ward
- only costs a hero slot

While not fantastic, that's still 8 S3 attacks (4 of which auto-hit) and D6 S4 hits. Not to mention the magic potential.

Foehammer

I think you'd be better off without the corona, mostly because if I charge with the little guy, it's with the intention of breaking a unit, not of killing models, and since corona doesn't add to the combat resolution, I prefer not to add it and instead go for a spellbreaker or flames of tzeentch (gives you something to do apart from magic while you wait for the charge).

Also, I think you can't cast the bear's anger on him since his whole thing strength is 5. Flaming sword is still ok (and seeing his combat abilities, I think it tends to be a better option). Also, fire lore gives you fire head, which combined with the banner of -2 leadership can get pretty damn annoying forcing so many panic tests.

Gralph!?!
02-06-2008, 19:30
Daemon Princes are just plain rubbish!!!!
3o0 pnts for something that aint even as good as a vampire lord at 205pnt????? Plus the vampire is already lvl 2 wizard. You PAY another 85pnts that abillity. Oh and lets not forget the 75pnts of gifts???? COME on he is a lord choice. Oh don't get me started on the additional 35pnt you pay just to praise a god! its like "here you go, here s 35pnt so I can take a gods specific gift".
just think guys daemon prince of Tzeench 300+35+85+75 = 495pnts
Greater Daemon Tzeench 450pnts already level 2 with abillities included can fly and has much better stat line. Its a no brainer

But I still Love the list overall


thats the thing, you are looking at all of the bad things the daemon prince has, which happens to be that the greater daemons are far superior in the roles that people try to make them by spending the points for. nnow the budget lord choice is the daemon prince, it is a great support unit and for the points saved i easily added in a third unit of daemonettes in the armymaking it so i have an army of pretty tough daemons. the ONLY upgrades that are worth taking on a daemon prince in my opinion are wings and the ether blade. 370pts, can charge units alot easier so long as it can see you just a little and it still does have 5 attacks that ignore armour saves and is still weapon skill 8 and pretty fearsome to fight against as it is similiar to an ogre tyrant in what it can do. the main thing that everyone tries to take which is utterly pointless is the level 1 and or 2 wizard upgrades, if you want a wizard then take tzeentch not a daemon prince who is simply inferior to other lord choices.

MrBigMr
02-06-2008, 20:43
This is what I love about WHFB players above 40K ones: someone has an oppinion, which leads to everyone pretty much chewing him up. You don't get that often at 40K. You make a "stupid" army or take "stupid" options, people don't mind that much. Probably mention that the unit or army might not fare well against this or that, but I don't remember lots of people just tearing someone down for something.


There are a million reasons for taking one thing over the other. I do agree that the DP is quite crappy when compared to the GDs, even when looking at what it used to be (same price without terror, wings, etc.). But no matter what, I'll still take one. I'll probably use a KoS in tournaments, but after working long and hard on my DP and having one of those dreaded "theme armies", I can't just drop everything in favour of some God damn WAAC. Are we so centered around on pure pwnage that out egos won't stretch to have some "flavour" in our armies?

I've fielded an Exalted Daemon ever since I started my daemon army with the SoC list and it worked then and it'll work now. I might have lost my dear Terror (God it was fun to strike fear into the hearts of Orcs), but my Exalted can kick harder and gets to use various lores depending on the situation.

On top of that I - dear God in Heaven - have a pure Slaanesh army instead of some silly daemon circus that's just GW's easy fix on balancing the armybook without a hint of creativity. Sure, my Prince isn't Slaaneshi, but that's just because 35pts. licensing fee for the rights to Slaaneshi stuff is not a turn on in any way.


So, lets recap:
-I suck because I use a DP
-I suck because I don't take no-brainer options
-I suck because I have a mono-God army
-I suck because I prefer fun over pwnage

Well, rain or shine, at least I'm enjoying myself. How about you? Will you lose your sleep over the fact that someone is doing it wrong and doesn't even feel bad about it? Do you lull yourself to sleep with the fact that it's just some idiot who doesn't know how to play nor make an effective list, and that you could win over him with your GD led army 10 times out of 9?


EDIT:
Oh, here's one trick with the prince: use furies as a bodyguard around him in a small ring. They get the prince's Ld. and can block LOS of shooting units to the prince, but allow the prince to see it's target.