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View Full Version : Bringing cavalry armies in line for th ed [a suggestion]



Gabacho Mk.II
19-10-2005, 17:38
Having read many new threads on the topic of changes to 7th ed, I thought I might suggest one that my friends came across.



Concerning "all cavalry armies" and the like, a few friends of mine have been playing around with re-assigning cavalry to Unit Strength 1.

They have only gamed a few battles with this change, but have fielded Bretonnians, Empire, Chaos and High Elf armies in testing this.

So far, given their feedback, they seem to see a slight shift toward infantry in straight up combats. [those involving cavalry charging into infantry blocks]


Now, I am not saying that this suggestion 'fixes' cavalry-hammer. There will need to be a great deal more effort and understanding put forward in order to get around to that. This suggestion does, at least from the rave feedback that I am getting, bring a slight tweak toward improving the cavalry-vs-infantry imbalances of this edition.







Any thoughts on this topic?

Gabacho Mk.II
19-10-2005, 17:45
The other bit that I need to add is the severe blow that fast cavalry end up recieving due to this suggestion.


In the games played, fast cavalry units (fielded normally in units of 5 strong), had their effectiveness severely diminsihed as soon as they lost a single model. This is something that would have a drastic effect on various armies. [my arch-nemesis, who loves his Dark Elves, would cry at the loss of importance of his Dark Riders when learning of this suggestion!]



As stated before, only a few games were played testing this suggestion. All of the games were at 1,500pts or lower. This would, certainly, tweak the overall results of the findings, IMO.

Archaon
19-10-2005, 18:02
The other bit that I need to add is the severe blow that fast cavalry end up recieving due to this suggestion.


In the games played, fast cavalry units (fielded normally in units of 5 strong), had their effectiveness severely diminsihed as soon as they lost a single model. This is something that would have a drastic effect on various armies. [my arch-nemesis, who loves his Dark Elves, would cry at the loss of importance of his Dark Riders when learning of this suggestion!]



As stated before, only a few games were played testing this suggestion. All of the games were at 1,500pts or lower. This would, certainly, tweak the overall results of the findings, IMO.

To be honest.. i don't really see the problem. Fast Cavalry rarely decided the game or had any huge impact.. it can be easily dealt with (usually one round of shooting by a 10 man unit is enough to reduce them to uneffectiveness) and usually doesn't deal that much damage.

In most games i bring them only into close combat against units i know they have a good chance of winning.. warmachine crews, small units of scouts or skirmishers or the lone character like a Mage (no good combat characters like a Tzeentch Lord on Disc).

So losing their unit strength of 2 doesn't affect them terribly and i plax Dark Elves and usually field at least 2 units of them.

I like the proposition of toning down their US... it would give infantry a better chance (not by much to be too imbalancing) and would solve one of the main problems with the Vampire Charge of death.. Vampire on Steed with a medium unit of Black Knights.

I'm really curious if the Designers and writers of Warhammer 7th edition will get these tiny nuances and correct them and what the players will come up with to adapt.

Avian
19-10-2005, 18:15
Concerning "all cavalry armies" and the like, a few friends of mine have been playing around with re-assigning cavalry to Unit Strength 1.
This effectively gives my unit of 15 not-too-great Orc Boar Boyz -2 to their CR, while not really affecting heavy cavalry units, who tend not to come in big enough units to get the Outnumbering bonus anyway.

I can't see how this hurts heavy cavalry, but I can certainly see how it hurts light and medium cavalry.


Examples:

1) 6 Chosen Knights of Chaos charge my unit of 30 Orc Boyz.
Knights kill an average of 5.3 orcs, steeds kill 1.2. With banner this gives them a CR of 7.5 on average.
My orcs have 0 wounds, 3 ranks, outnumbering and a banner, giving them a CR of 5.
Knights win by 2.5

With your proposed change, nothing happens, the knights never got the Outnumbering bonus in the first place.


2) 15 Orc Boar Boyz (which cost pretty much the same as the Knights) charge the same unit of 30 Orc Boyz.
The riders kill one guy, the boars 1.5 more, two ranks, standard and outnumbering means the boar boyz' CR is 6.5
Again the orc infantry do nothing in return, but have three ranks and a standard, meaning their CR is 4.
Boar Boyz win by 2.5, same as the knights did.

With your proposed change, the Boar Boyz lose the Outnumbering bonus and the infantry gets it instead, meaning that the Boar Boyz only win by 0.5

This is on the charge, against a unit that costs 100 pts less than the boar boyz do.

See what I mean? No change for the knights, plenty of change for my poor boar boyz.

Trunks
19-10-2005, 19:37
The only thing this rule really does besides what Avian said is makes it so that you need 5 cavalry models, instead of 3, to negate ranks on a flank charge. I've always thought it was kind of goofy that 3 cavalry could do that.

Fast Cavalry do not need toning down at all. They work damn near perfectly for their points. They aren't strong enough to destroy enemy regiments on their own for the most part and work best when supporting a charge (unless you are speaking of Wood Elf Wild riders, but then they are really just Medium Cavalry who happen to have the Fast Cavalry rules). They excel as harassers, which is what they are suppose to be.

If this rule were to be put in place, I wouldn't care less with my Dark Riders anyway since I don't just charge lone regiments of Dark Riders into combat by themeselves, and most of the time in battle I just flee from charges and shoot the hell out of small regiments with them.

People don't complain about fast cavalry/light cavalry. They complain about HEAVY cavalry. I personally have no problem with heavy cavalry (I never field it either), but that is what you need to address if you are wanting to fix a supposed problem.

If you want to "fix" heavy cavalry all you have to do is up the point cost on the problem choices (Chaos Knights don't need any point increases, they cost an assload, and neither do Cold One Knights). It is that damn simple. You get what you pay for.

I see no need to alter them though. I think most Heavy Cavalry works fine.

chivalrous
19-10-2005, 20:17
@ TRUNKS Which cavalry units/armies are you having problems with?

Maybe the problem isn't with the cavalry units themselves but with the rest of the army list that they appear in.
a good example being the High Elf Cav army. It's a symptom of High Elf players being unimpressed with the apparrent ineffectiveness of their infantry (I don't see it myself. Spearmen fighting in 3 ranks *WANTS*;) )

Cavalry to me suggests a lot of damage caused in the first round of combat.
My suggestion for combating the effectiveness of cavalry is to only allow them to use any rank bonus in the round they charge and to allow infantry to automatically lap round even if they loose the combat (even if they don't flee) to represent the cavalry penetrating deep into the unit on the charge then getting bogged down in the combat.

shadowprince
20-10-2005, 00:28
a) isnot the spear elfswe find inaffective but they are costly for their fragilityand power, but most the other infantry. The best proposed high elf revision for non all calv armies is 1 silver unit to 1 spear unit. I think it isn't that calvary is overpowered but infantry underpowered, especially elite expensive infantry.

Trunks
20-10-2005, 03:42
@ TRUNKS Which cavalry units/armies are you having problems with?

I'm not having a problem with any Cavalry units/armies at all. It seems the original poster is though.

If I have little cavalry or no cavalry in my army list and am facing alot of cavalry, then I know I am going to have to deploy and maneuver correctly to minimize his advantage of speed. It's not a big deal to me if someone has alot of cavalry usually. You have to adjust your tactics depending on who you are facing. This happens when you are outgunned, or outmagicked or "outclosecombated" as well.

I see no problem with cavalry myself.

Gabacho Mk.II
20-10-2005, 08:18
Sorry, this isnt the direction that I believed this thread would take.

I sincerely apologize for everyone's time and effort.