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View Full Version : totaly Sickest 2250 pts of Flying Circuss



Akuma
17-05-2008, 09:22
Can anyone beat this ? - Special characters inclouded

Kairos
BlueScribes

2x Herald - both master of sorcerry and scroll one in chariot beeing bsb with hellfire banner ...

3x 10 Horrors

3x 3 Screemers

2x 6 Flamers

How on earth is this going to lose to anything - remember that kairos can choose his spells and has 14 of them ... on top of it he has 3+ ward save that he can reroll onece per turn thanks to will of tzeensh ... can only be wounded on 3+ so cannons will have hard time of bringing him down - blue scribes are to good too thay get one spell of randomly but in addition if enemy trys to do enything with magic ( as VC do ) he will get swamped in my phase by magic from kairos ...

realy I'm affraid of this list myself ...

_Lucian_
17-05-2008, 09:30
Win Big / Lose Big armies like this get unstuck against other win big lose big armies. I would say this is far from unstoppable as it has many of the similar issues most tzeentch lists do. far too many points on single large spell casters with an 'eggs in one basket approach'. To make his points back Kairos will be used offensively leaving your blue scribes and horrors poorly defended. A few bad roles and it could be all over for you. This looks like another one trick pony list to me :S nasty ill admit, but not the 'sickest' ive ever seen

forthegloryofkazadekrund
17-05-2008, 09:36
a chaos dwarf army with a lord with the talisman of obsidian and a great taurus wielding a great weapon backed by up a heavy artillery - 2 earthshakers, 8 bt /hobbo slave army will take it apart

Akuma
17-05-2008, 09:42
All things expect horrors fly :) so thay are impossible to catch - Kairos has 3+ ward with reroll ... Few bed rolls ? show me an army immune to bed rolls ? It's like all other armys - if you have bad luck there isnt any army comp that will save your ass - now or ever - this list is near perfect because its large target is close to immortal , it has very high magic potential coupled with great PD generation and very small portion of the army can acctualy be cought ( horrors only )

Lets deliberate - fast CC armys that dont have much diss potential are in the woods - few spells of thay lose their most prised units and the rest cant catch flying circuss

Gunlines are more problematic but if i screen my screemers behind horrors for one turn then fly over his shooters in second - i can do enought damage to make him suffer

If enemy sports magic - he has even bigger problem - as I have nice diss potential + every thing that goes throught will make him suffer in his turn - and for the bloue scribes - if you take heavens lore for them ... there is only ONE spell that is very bad - and second that is medicore - 2 very good and one is just a blast (blast from the orbit I mean ... )

Akuma
17-05-2008, 09:45
Yeah cerainly - and on tourneys every chaos dwarf army ( if i ever see one ) will have magic item thet is only usable aginst magic heavy armys - man you got this wrong this is tourney army - you cant side for it - you must use something good for all opponents ... Siding with deamons i can say that I'll take blood thrister and take your chaos dwarf appart or empire 4+2 army and this leads to nothing - show me tourney army 2250 pts that can easly tear it down

Jagosaja
17-05-2008, 11:25
A friend of mine leads High Elves, and he always takes a unit of ten Dragon Princes, and makes them immune to all magic and psychology. As dragon armour makes them immune to flaming attacks, they would simply overrun this army.

Max zero
17-05-2008, 11:56
And pretty much everyone you play will give you a 0 for comp and probably sports too. So your pretty much going to need to 20-0 every opponent to have any chance of placing well.

Its not new either.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142970

Akuma
17-05-2008, 13:26
Well you friend is quite a ... ... ... for a unit in HE army to be immune to psychology and magic it has to have - noble beeing BSB with banner of world dragon + it has to have standard of balance - so the total point cost for the unit is ... 563 pts ... 1/4 of his whole army ... and what does it do aginst empire or VC ? Get shoot to bits or stuck on lods of summoned zombis ? Or aginst KoS ? Sirened into combat - yes siren works on ITP and cut to pices ? - Man I've toled you before I'm not happy with childish argument of "Yes I can easly think of a unit that would give this roster a problem but would suck on man other levels" - show me one roster posted on this forum by HE player that have such unit - or do the reserch and find all of them ( if thay are more then 3 it will be gross ) ...

Man as a side note ... you are fully aware that the only thing those DP will roll over are horrors ? as all other things Fly and if your friend invested 536 points in one unit he wont have much more to stop my from avoiding his one big unit and tearing apart all the others ?

As for comps score - we dont use it where i play - thearmy is as "fun" as 4+2 empire and Teclis HE magic blast - It's just the deamons anwser to those lists thats all ...

andy10k
17-05-2008, 14:29
Well you friend is quite a ... ... ... for a unit in HE army to be immune to psychology and magic it has to have - noble beeing BSB with banner of world dragon + it has to have standard of balance - so the total point cost for the unit is ... 563 pts ... 1/4 of his whole army ... and what does it do aginst empire or VC ? Get shoot to bits or stuck on lods of summoned zombis ? Or aginst KoS ? Sirened into combat - yes siren works on ITP and cut to pices ? - Man I've toled you before I'm not happy with childish argument of "Yes I can easly think of a unit that would give this roster a problem but would suck on man other levels" - show me one roster posted on this forum by HE player that have such unit - or do the reserch and find all of them ( if thay are more then 3 it will be gross ) ...

Man as a side note ... you are fully aware that the only thing those DP will roll over are horrors ? as all other things Fly and if your friend invested 536 points in one unit he wont have much more to stop my from avoiding his one big unit and tearing apart all the others ?

As for comps score - we dont use it where i play - thearmy is as "fun" as 4+2 empire and Teclis HE magic blast - It's just the deamons anwser to those lists thats all ...

The guy who won this years GT had a unit od dragon princes with the immune to magic banner in it, so it isn't exactly rare lol.

People will beat you, don't think that ANY army is invincible, can't give you specific lists, but all armies have a chance of winning

Akuma
17-05-2008, 15:19
"The guy who won this years GT had a unit od dragon princes with the immune to magic banner in it, so it isn't exactly rare lol."

Well LoL it is - done my reserch - no HE roster in 10 pages of army lists has one :) Unit is Expensive AND on top of that will get owned by pretty much everything that shoots - like gunlines - and gunlines are something that you want to be prepered for in tournaments

"People will beat you, don't think that ANY army is invincible, can't give you specific lists, but all armies have a chance of winning"

I agree in 100% - but i must add - the chance of winning is pretty small with list that can run circles around most armys - Even the said - 10 dragon princes immune to magic list would have hard time as i can easly disspatch the rest of his army and just avoid the big all eggs in one basket unit :)

On the plus side - red onece agin what i said about Siren - in metagame this unit is dead agins deamons - you wont choose flee - as it is great risk to run it of the board and if you charge - you fail and get charged next turn - if he wipes you out - and this is quite probable instant lose :)

I'm saying it once agin - It's not pawn noobs roxor list of kids delight - its just very very hard combination of tzeensh troops - the best possible setting - and only that BEST possible combination of deamons on 2250 pts mark :)

Stouty
17-05-2008, 15:22
Also although I appreciate that it works slightly better with Daemons than Brettonians you should appreciate that the more flying units you have the fewer places there are to put them.

Flamers and horrors don't fly if I remember rightly? But don't say anything as rash as "that makes them impossible to catch", because it really doesn't. Flying chariots are a bit big (do they still have 360 LoS?) but that aside there are still 780pts up for grabs. that you can't do a huge deal to protect.

That said it is a strong list, should serve you well enough but I'd imagine it'd get a bit dull after a while though- depends on your inclinations I guess so it'd be wrong for me to say any more.

Also akuma (nice name btw) HE players do love their precious dragon princes, so I wouldn't just laugh them off.

Akuma
17-05-2008, 15:34
on 72" x 48" table if you dont want to risk it's realy impossible to catch any of the element - if you dont have lods of flyers of your own :)

As for DP - yes thay are very good - but i seen them requently with combination of warbanner and the banner that adds d6 to CR in unit of 9 with pronce - starlance + talisman of loec - few mages with beast lore to cast 2d6 spell on them and thay are realy great - the immune too magic part is realy weak agins more armys then its good for - as I said - empire , dwarfs , khemri , VC , Chaos mortals ( well when chosen knights will have stats "to rape a blood knight" ) wood elves , and finaly dark elves - oh and bretonians also ... this armys either have only magic defanse or magic that supports their troops not attack other ones ...

So what would banner of world dragon be good aginst besides tzeensh flying circus ? I'll tell you - teclis magic HE :D

Personaly I encoruge you to look at army lists I've posted in Deamon Tactics Thread - Thay are far more funn and balance then this sit here - we dont use Special Chars where i play and we cap usable PD at 12 in 2250 games ( we also cap DD so magic can be effective but not game owning enymore )

I once agin stres that this army is not the thing i want to run or collect - its just the example of how broken demonic legion can be :)

_Lucian_
18-05-2008, 13:10
You can break every list (almost). This is no different

Akuma
18-05-2008, 13:32
Great input man ... I'll think of that oppinion of yours ...

Andrew Luke
18-05-2008, 13:38
I mean its rock hard list, but everyone you play is just gonna laugh at you and give you low comp... If you want respect, win a tourney with a peasant army, or even the WD HoC list, haha.

soulcrusher
18-05-2008, 14:26
pah, with my high elf army i could grind that into the dirt. you may have some nasty firepower and ok you fly but still : star dragon + prince , dragon mage , 2 eagles , RBT , archers , lothern sea guard and phoenix guard to resist some of that magic alongside caradryel and a further 2 mages .

Your Mum Rang
18-05-2008, 14:37
Gunlines are more problematic but if i screen my screemers behind horrors for one turn then fly over his shooters in second - i can do enought damage to make him suffer.

9 S5 hits to one or 2 units won't stop a gunline.

Akuma
18-05-2008, 14:39
star dragon + prince , dragon mage caradryel and a further 2 mages - yeah you would rock me if your list was legal ... you mentioned 6 character slots 2 for prienc on dragon 2 for dragon mage 1 for caradryan and 2 for mages .. wait - no its 7 slots - either read AB before posting , or play a game few times before posting anything :) This list is for 2250 points man ...

_Lucian_
18-05-2008, 14:40
Hey you stated this list was the sickest 2250 points list. I simply said i didnt think it was. No need to get all testy...

Soul crushers are you telling us you have 2 dragons 2 mages on foot and caradryel all in a 2250 list...... I count 7 character slots there myself...

Akuma
18-05-2008, 14:41
"9 S5 hits to one or 2 units won't stop a gunline."

Oh on the conterary - it will kill like 7 or 8 T3 shooters or aobut 6 t4 shooters - and not give them chance to retaliate - reapat this till he drops - + remember about things like wall of fire from kairos blue scribes and all other magical goodnes spells ...

@ Lucian - no man you just said the most obvious thing - no list is unbeatable - i never said it is - I post it 3 time in this thread - I only say this is the best 2250 of DEAMONS not every list out there ...

_Lucian_
18-05-2008, 14:49
Ill apologise i suppose then incase i made you look like an agressive, over defensive quick to snap argumentative child. Which of course you are not, although i still debate whethers its the sickest deamon list, but i suppose we shall have to wait till the GT's. because imo the sickest list is one which can be played by the best generals and beat every opponent bar none.. not a one trick pony which works best against the ill prepared and unaware. Only my opinion though.

Dead Man Walking
18-05-2008, 17:30
This is by far not the best list for 2250 daemons. I think that if you play it a bunch your going to find that it looses as many games as it wins. First of all all flying does not make you uncatchable. Secondly since Tzeentch spells have 24/18/12 inch range you have to keep your mages in threat ranges to use thier spells, the only exception is Khairos who can choose heavens. Slaanesh has an ability to make you charge a unit, which means your flying circus would get pulled into combat fast. ALso Khairos is only as good as how many magic dice *HE* can throw. As for your chairot mages I hope they dont miscast and do str 10 hit to the unit they are in (chariot).

Next up is tourneys, what are you going to do when the tourney requires you to be the largest unit strength unit near a specific point? Magic flux will maim you. Your only game plan is 'do a lot of wounds'. Your army can't take wounds itself. As your horrors are useless to you I would focus on everything else.

There is a difference between 'best list evah!' and taking all the cheddar/beardy stuff in a list. That difference is how well the units work in coheasion on the table.

blurred
18-05-2008, 18:16
Yes, it is a truly evil list. Flamers are downright nasty and Bluescribes are a horrible thing to face. I wouldn't worry about screamers though. They have large bases and have to end their movement beyond 1" of all enemy units: pretty easy to nullify chances for their slashing attack. Horrors are also quite average in blocks of 10 (though they may be good with the Bluescribes).

I would definitely give you a comp of 0 if we would face each other in a tourney, but I would love the challenge. :)

Shadowsinner
18-05-2008, 18:39
eh I think my dwarf list could challenge it pretty well... and it only has 3 warmachines. the thing is if you ever got into actual combat if you lost chances are it would be a heavy loss and pop goes your entire unit. I just learned that organ guns are considered "broken" so you get knocked points for having 2 in your list... I can only imagine the penalties you might take for this composition

Draconian77
18-05-2008, 18:44
I really doubt your solution to gunlines is ideal. At 2250pts my DE run 30 Rxbs, 8 Lvs of magic(With Morathi) and 4 RBT's. (Then again it also has no Rnf infantry so its a strange DE list that only I like to play with. :))You might get to slash once or twice but if I have a hill(And for some stupid reason there is always a hill...) screening won't really work.

And about the Cannons not really hurting the SC but why fire at him when you have Heralds just asking to be "headshotted!"?

Asfaloth
18-05-2008, 22:03
It's definitely an evil list. I wouldn't give it a 0 on comp as it's not unfluffy.

A gun line would be very dangerous though as apart from Kairos everything is quite easy to shoot. A little dirty Thorek list would cause serious problems to your deamons.

My High Elf list including several small units of Dragon Princes and a Prince on Star Dragon with Dragon armour would love to play this list as they would be immune to everything the deamons could dish out.

An interseting matchup would be Brettonians as they are fast and could have flying cavalry as well as the blessing and magic resistance. I remember almost losing a game against Brets as a damsel casts the beast cowers with IF on my LoC.

In the end the list would butcher most non-tournament lists, but could be in trouble against gun lines and cavalry list. And a miscast could also ruin the day

Jagosaja
18-05-2008, 22:36
OP, don't get me wrong but it seems to me that you are having a bad attitude towards all who have different oppinion to yours. I don't mean to be disrespectful when I say DP can own this army, put they will place a dent in it for sure, as they cancel most of the best abilities this army has. We all came to a point when we think we found a perfect, nearly invincible army. But I do run quite a solid VC list, and that unit of DP caused serious problems to me, especially when he gave them magic attacks as well. They are a tough nut to crack.

On the side note, I myself have started that "25 power, 13 dispell dice" thread, so I have a faint idea what such, or a similar, army can do, but I also acknowledge there are many weaknesses added to its destructive potential. Though your army appears to be strong, please accept that there are many things out there that will hurt it plenty. And I believe DP with immunities are one of them.

Such units are not rare, but as HE army book is not so hot anymore, people tend to try new things, and such power setups tend to change for something fresh. That is why you fail to see many units of such DP, though I assure they actually are common on tournaments as they are quite reliable.

theunwantedbeing
18-05-2008, 23:02
I've seen better lists.
There's just so little actual surviviability in the list as a whole which is the problem.
That and....to actually beenfit from the blue scribes you need to let spells cast, and that's something that can feasably tear your list apart quite easily.

eg.
A lot of the list is t3 with a 5+ save
Now...a fireball will rip apart a lot of those things.
Blue scribes....3 t3 5+ save wounds
Screamers....3 t3 5+ saves
Horrors......10 t3 5+ saves, only 5 wounds needed to remove the ability to cast from them.
Chariots....4 t4 5+ save wounds(the rider is only hit on a 6 so is ignored)
The flamers are the second toughest bit of the list infact. 12 t4 5+ save wounds

I'de go as far as to say that my current DE list isnt in the slightest bit worried by your "uber" list.
It's powerful once it managed to get past turn 2(intact) though, very powerful as it will cause all sorts of problems for your opponent.

vinny t
18-05-2008, 23:49
Get Kairos in combat with anything and he will lose combat every time. 1 attack just doesn't cut it. Despite having 14 spells, he is still only a lvl 4 wizard and doesn't do THAT super much.

Akuma
19-05-2008, 06:46
Ok I see I must tell you about VP denial :)

The tactic is based around - well as the name suggests dening opponent VP.
IT can be done by using all the tactics above

1. You place you'r horrors at the very far end of the battlefield so ... if you place your units 12" max into your dep zone - you are still 6 inches away with first turn xbow shot ... ( 30" + 12" = 42" ) - this tactics can provide me with AT LEAST one turn of shooting before you can - and this is only if you have xbows - if you have handgunns - and 8 movment - you will be ( 12" + 8" + 24" = 44" ) so still no cookie ...

The only thing that can shoot are acctualy warmachines - and not all of them

Bolt thrower , Stone thrower and Cannon ( of all sorts ) can take aim and shoot me - but then i Have my magic concentrate on them for first two turns in order to put them out of buissnes ...

There are only 2 armys that use warmachines to an extent of making me warry - Empire and Dwarfs - all others like HE and DE just have problems like small number of crew - low T and AS of them etc ...

OK Shooting aside

CC - The main tactic is not to get cought - the army on tournament level has to focus on something - it cannot have great magic , superb shooting and killer combat - so if I'm taking on some CC army I can be pretty sure that it's shooting will be severly limited - thous I have greater freedom to roam the field with all my flying units ...

This does not mean that - I will take any chances - the first prioryty is to deny VP to opponent not couse him more wounds - this is not one for one roster - I will stick back and use my magic mostly - only if I'm quite shure that my opponent cant do anything about them - i will use units such as screemers and flamers - if not - i will keep them safe with thayir supperior movment.

The ground based unit can only catch one thing - horrors - and this means that he will have to get close for them to cast spells - this can be crucial thay are only 384 pts in total so not much - and will give him something to do while I'm magicking the real threats

The talk about flying generals and such makes me lought pretty hard - as a long time chaos player I have great experiance in using Dragons - the only problem is that roster having one is seriously crippled in magic defanse field - usualy sports one caddie 3 DD and 2 scrolls arent good enought to get it by turn one let alone whole game ... - the usual trap is to put Kairos in middle - and 3 unit of horrors right behind him screemers on the wings and flamers besides horrors - Dragon get closer to Kairos - the trap snaps - screemers do 9 s5 hits - flamers shoot 10D6 shoots at 4+ to hit ( +1 for him beeing LT ) horrors unleash their spells , so does everyhing else ... - Trust me I have 3 Dragons of my own ( Nurgle - from zombie dragon , Tzeensh with twin heads - made from OLD HE one and Slannesh from the new one ) Thay just would die ...

Another thing is brettonian RAF - but screemers and flamers can deal with it pretty well - i assure you ;)

and now for the 3 set of armys - magicky one - this is tought match up - but thanks to bluescriebs - aginst such opponents as VC its rather easy - The units he generates the more dice I have to destroy them

2. Tactic of VP denial is choosing target wisly - you locate the greatest threat that can catch up with your army and then dedicate all your magic to deal with it - then second one then third and so on ...

3. Would be the old we are lambs sire rule - all the list is there to guard all others in descending order - 1 Horrors - Then Screemers Then Flamers Then Herald on disk - Then Herald on chariot with banner - Then Kairos - the King - he is on the top of the piramid - If i must sacriffice something to let him slip away - I will not hesitate

Ok lots of talking - and you dont know the exact list so here it is

Kairos Fateweaver, Oracle of Tzeentch

The Blue Scribes of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Battle Standard
Banner of Hellfire
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Chariot of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

12 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch

5 Flamers of Tzeench
5 Flamers of Tzeench

Casting Pool: 10
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 53
Total Army Cost: 2245

And as you can se - we have lods of sad kids here on warseer - someone says - ITS CHEESY - I'll ask - how can a roster based on magic be cheese with only 10 PD in total :D ?

radbug
19-05-2008, 13:41
A skaven army with the storm banner will yawn its way across this army.

/R

Akuma
19-05-2008, 15:21
Another one :/ - Man 1 - go find 1 skaven army with bsb with that banner - second it stops on 1-2 third - I could just stick at the opposite side of the board waiting for it to go off and cast no range spells like commet on your skaven army - happy with the anwser ?

Alpha_Wolf
19-05-2008, 15:26
High elves will hurt this army. Anything with fire/magic immunity (combat characters and dragon princes) are going to be able to kill this army single handedly. Both of those units also have high mobility.

None of the units can stand up to much and the army has a low model count to begin with.

Thats just a few things, I'm still curious to know how it works out but I think you might be suffering from itlooksgoodonpaperitis. ;)

Some battle reports would be nice.

Your Mum Rang
19-05-2008, 15:27
Akuma... you seem to have made your mind that this army is uber. So why bother?

Are we meant to say "OMG! You are so cool! This army is unbeatable!"

You throw down any negative comments so my suggestion would be to go out, take 50 and pay a kid to tell you you're awesome.

:D

Akuma
19-05-2008, 15:42
My sugestion would be to read all things posted - as a topic not only consist of the last anwser but the whole logic response.

As I said - you obviously didnt care to read it as a whole - just jump to the last post and try to write something - in your mind funny , This list is by no means unbeatable or great - its just very hard as it slips throught a lot of CS and I only claimed it is the best 2250 Deamonic tourney set up it can be - and I've waited a long time for someone to post another 2250 of deamons so we could comepere - I waited for nothig ...

The best most "specialist" can do is to skim trought army builder in the search of some item or combination of items that are great aginst this particular set up but fail misarebly aginst pretty much every thing else ...

There is thing called meta or metagaming - you dont take Banner of Imune to magic - that works great aginst 2 armys when you can take battle banner and be super strong aginst everything - you dont take storm banner in an army that can deal with flyer by shooting and sick magic - like warplighting ( you would be robbing yourself out of one electrician ) and so on - the examples are endless

There were exeptions - people who said its strong but can be beat - and i've agree with them - and posted it few times - the problem is that the said solutions are quite funny at least or dont come out of playing experiance but theory hammer - everone who is regular tournament player that its very easy to deny VP if whole army flys

You just added anouther brick in the tall wall of "I dont fallow the disscussion only last posts"

and comment about paying the kid to tell me Im awsome is on the same level as would be telling you that YourMum pays me 100 to see for herself how awsome I'm realy am :D - but I wont lower to saying such a rude words dear sir :)

vinny t
19-05-2008, 16:54
Why don't you take this army to a tournament and see what happens. An empire list with walter and 2x Stanks and 4x cannons would prbably beat this list. 3+ ward can only go so far. Every skaven army I have seen uses Storm Banner, and 3 people at my gaming group play skaven.

Znail
19-05-2008, 17:50
The key to make VP denial work is to somehow get atleast a few points yourself. This is a problem for this list as while it does have some ranged units and spellcasters so are they lacking in range. 18" as max range on most things means that you have to take some shooting hits to get in range against a gunline and this list is very vulnerable to getting shot at. You cant use horrors to screen with as they die too fast. Even if it worked so would you need to stand almost ontop of the enemy to be able to fly back and forth with your screamers.

As a tournament army so would this one be rather bad and could never win a tournament due to the simple fact that even if everything goes well so will you win by a small margin, wich means someone else who win with larger margins will beat you.

Akuma
19-05-2008, 18:04
what 18 range ? Heralds have master of sorcery so will be able to choose spells - blue scribes and kairos can choose spells from other lores too ... I will have unlimited supply of only LoS spells ...

"Every skaven army I have seen uses Storm Banner, and 3 people at my gaming group play skaven."

And do thay use jezzeils also ?

Your Mum Rang
19-05-2008, 18:19
You just added anouther brick in the tall wall of "I dont fallow the disscussion only last posts"

Coming across as an arrogant idiot gets you nowhere my friend. The way you speak to people on this thread is, whether you mean it or not, coming across as very rude. THIS is why you are getting such replies.

Patronising people and explaining the concept of VP denial is condescending and, as I said, makes you come across as a bit of a tit.

PS: My name INVITES those kinda jokes :D

Alpha_Wolf
19-05-2008, 18:31
Coming across as an arrogant idiot gets you nowhere my friend. The way you speak to people on this thread is, whether you mean it or not, coming across as very rude. THIS is why you are getting such replies.

Patronising people and explaining the concept of VP denial is condescending and, as I said, makes you come across as a bit of a tit.


I'll second this incase there is doubt.

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass but have you used this list on someone yet? If you did, how did it go?

Akuma
19-05-2008, 18:50
I used it 5 times - 4 massaccers one major victory ...

Opponents were - Vc , Skaven , TK and Lizardman - all tooled up to be super competative

BUT i score MV aginst it with 2+4 empire myself with my friend playing it - he got bad luck on one of magic phases - rerolled number of hits on d6+4 spell but then misscasted on 2D6 ... this ended his phase - I then got superb turn of shooting - realy raely great - 4 cannons hit Kairos and killed him ( he failed 2 wards - one he rorolled the other rolled 6 for to wound and 5 wounds ) - the rest of the army were hard to catch but stank went after flamers and screemers made some bad moves that got them in range of my crossbowman ...

_Lucian_
19-05-2008, 20:34
Coming across as an arrogant idiot gets you nowhere my friend. The way you speak to people on this thread is, whether you mean it or not, coming across as very rude. THIS is why you are getting such replies.

Patronising people and explaining the concept of VP denial is condescending and, as I said, makes you come across as a bit of a tit.

PS: My name INVITES those kinda jokes :D

Phew glad im not the only one thinking it..

Akuma
19-05-2008, 20:58
"Phew glad im not the only one thinking it.."

Phew I'm glad you added another great input here :D

Dead Man Walking
19-05-2008, 22:30
Your Mum Rang says the things that I want to say before I can say them. Though I have to admit the most annoying thing is when everyone gives suggestions and the OP says, "Nope, your all wrong." Its like watching a troll pick its nose. At least I never have to play this opponent.

Ozorik
19-05-2008, 22:35
I used it 5 times - 4 massaccers one major victory ...

Akuma you are the best wargames player that there has every been or will ever be. In fact I am giving up wargaming as of this instant as perfection has evidently been acheived before I could come even close to your awe inspiring abilities. I award you 5 internets*.


*may not actually be the case

Incidentally how old are you?

Jagosaja
19-05-2008, 22:35
I think your army is awesome!!!


... now give me those 50 bucks :)

Zoolander
19-05-2008, 22:58
I'll take my brets up against that any day.

Malagant
20-05-2008, 02:26
Don't feed the troll.

fubukii
20-05-2008, 02:49
i think its a solid list, as long as kairos doesnt get hit by 3-4 cannons in a turn :P or anything str 4 + as he is only toughness 5. My skaven love toughness 5 targets >.<

druchii
20-05-2008, 03:09
I'll take my brets up against that any day.

I second that.
I'd lock down kairos so quickly his head would spin. And I've only got a single unit of pegasus knights.

Oh. You've got a ton of flying units? I've got a ton of knight units with a 2+/6/5++ that run almost as fast, are more survivable, and are backed up with MR, dispel dice, and Scrolls.

I wonder what would happen if you played a Bretonnian RAF with a trio of PK units, and solid magic defence? None of your units are really threatening to the Bretonnian player (who will tag your greater demon if he peeks his head out, or tag him if he doesn't) and his three, very nasty units are very threatening to yours. In fact I doubt you'd have much left by turn three as his RAF tracks Kairos into a corner and charges the living warp out of him.

Did I menton there were other knight units and damsels you had to deal with?
This isn't the sort of "one off" army that's been posted here before and we see a good number of them in the tournaments around here.

d
ps. I also think a flying circus blood dragon army would destroy this list.

Znail
20-05-2008, 04:18
what 18 range ? Heralds have master of sorcery so will be able to choose spells - blue scribes and kairos can choose spells from other lores too ... I will have unlimited supply of only LoS spells ...

"Every skaven army I have seen uses Storm Banner, and 3 people at my gaming group play skaven."

And do thay use jezzeils also ?
You dont have enuff magic suppremacy to assume that you can defeat an enemy with magic alone. And its only your characters that gets other spells and of those only Kairos are somewhat durable.

Lordmonkey
20-05-2008, 04:39
Gunline

Gunline

Gunline

Adios

creamygoodness
20-05-2008, 08:04
Ok I see I must tell you about VP denial :)


And as you can se - we have lods of sad kids here on warseer - someone says - ITS CHEESY - I'll ask - how can a roster based on magic be cheese with only 10 PD in total :D ?

um ..
lvl 4, lvl 2, lvl 2, 2 for army 3 lvl 1s (horrors) 13 powerdice, and 9 dispell dice

Armilthuan
20-05-2008, 09:39
I like the list. It has potential, but is very flawed. You can dish out damage but you can't take it.

This list will do OK-ish against gunlines. If you can dish out enough damage to silence the artillery, you're going to have a filed trip, otherwise, your units will get shot to bits.

About the High elf GT list which you deposed earlier:

The army is not solely aboput the Dragon Princes.

He had:

Prince on Star Dragon with Lance, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of defense and Gem of Courage.

Noble on Barded steed with Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, BSB and banner of the World Dragon.

Mage, 2x Dispell scrolls.

10 Lothern Seagaurd

10 Lothern Seagaurd

White Lion Chariot

9 Dragon Princes, Full command, Lion Banner.

3 RBT

How I would take on your list with this GT list?

I would use the Dragon Princes as a forward element. You can't put a dent in it (VP denial anyone?). Then the Chariot and Dragon will stay somewhere behind the Dragon princes ( the chariot preferably out of sight) and gaurd the flanks and rear of the Dragon princes. The RBTwill stay on a hill (if there is one) and the Seagaurd will be near them for support.

I would not move (unless it is in my favour to do so), stay compact and play the waiting game. I'm happy for a draw. If you want to win, you have to come out in the open. You would have to move very carefully, because almost all lines of approach will be gaurded. You can blast apart the chariot, that's for sure, but you can't take out the dragon in one turn of magic (prince can soak a lot of damage). Only exception is pit of shades, but only Kairos can cast it with a good chance of success, and that is what you have DS for.

After that, you still have to deal with 3 RBT. 18 S4 shoots can put a lot of hurt on Kairos.

But anyways, I like the list, I would like to play with it myself, if I could allow myself to bring a heavy magic army on the table (I don't really like magic, it's to fickle ;) )

Oh yes, the High elf list has faced at least one dwarven gunline (with Thorek) and walked away with a minor victory. Dwarves even got lucky and got first turn. I can provide you a link if you'd like, I only need to dig it up.

But do seriously bring your tone down. You are not getting popularity this way.

Your Mum Rang
20-05-2008, 09:56
A bloke called General of Chaos on TDL plays a similar list. However he now includes Skulltaker and Letters. Let me find his lists...

He started with this:

Kairos Fateweaver [General]
Twin Heads, Tzeentch Will and Daemonic Robes

Blue Scribe w/Disc of Tzeentch

Tz Herald
Wings & Power Vortex

Tz Herald
Wings & Power Vortex

10 Horrors
10 Horrors
10 Horrors

5 Screamers
5 Screamers
4 Screamers

6 Flamers
6 Flamers

Similar to yours except a little stronger IMO. However, he found to be lacking. He then went for this:


Fateweaver [General]
Skulltaker / on Jugg
Blue Scribe
Tzeentch Herald w/ Power Vortex & Wings

16 Horrors w/banner
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

6 Flamers
5 Flamers

And is doing very well. He is one of the top players in the US and has won countless GT's with Tzeentch Beasts and now Daemons. He plays NO COMP tournaments (so uber cheese) and found this list to be a MUCH stronger list than the pure list.

Some food for thought.

Akuma
21-05-2008, 09:40
"And is doing very well. He is one of the top players in the US and has won countless GT's with Tzeentch Beasts and now Daemons. He plays NO COMP tournaments (so uber cheese) and found this list to be a MUCH stronger list than the pure list."

Yey - so when guy who is one of top players in US - uses list almost identical to mine - it's good - but mine is not good because its mine :D ...

Look at the lists once agin - the diffrance is that he took more flamers and screemers - but I had banner of hellfire - a magic item that can couse d6 s6 hits on everything in 12" ... I also had less PD but my mages known all selected lore spells ... and from any lore - this would mean that i could very well tailor my list to opponent ...

Here is a thing to condier - he now uses much less magic - and diched screemers - I think he used them in wrong numbers - 3 is max - the bases are so big that smart opponent can cut amount of places that thay can land safly ...

Flash hound are also almost usless in this set up - thay are not fast cav so will have great problem with manuvering and so on ... Also lone skull taker asks for a cannonball in the face :D more then anything in this roster - i understand that he will use him to create 14" kill zone no enemy character will eneter - but what about charater in units that can just go to the back rank ?

Also thak you for posting it Mum - If a player that is that high in the US plays army that is very very similar to mine - basicly using the same concept it speaks about each and every one who said - I would pawn - better then anything i could ever write

cheers

Your Mum Rang
21-05-2008, 09:59
I was saying that he found it lacking... in a tournament setting, the army as you posted would not cut it. It was a traditional unbalanced army and like all unbalanced armies it would slaughter some enemies and be TOTALLY eaten by others. He prefers to win on the merit of his skills rather than the luck of the draw.

So when I say a top player initially used a list like yours, I am not saying that it is the ultimate list ever but that after testing it he found it lacking. Lacking.

I'm trying to help by suggesting improvements to take the list from a rock/paper/scissors list to something more balanced. I mean, this guy is one of the top players in the US. Having the same list as he means nothing. Your self-delusion amazes me.

PS: Skulltaker can go into the Horrors if he wants.

lordkull
21-05-2008, 12:25
Yeah Akuma this is the latest flying circus as already posted zero for comp .
Its very hard to beat and will tear up the newbies but the hardened vets will be able to beat it .
This game is all about tactical positioning. Making a super hard list does not make you a great general [although you very well may be] .
Akuma would you like to play against this list??
Do you think it would be enjoyable?
As far as taking it down most armies will have some tools to deal with most aspects of it ,while its a very tough list with proper positioning you should be able to cover the fly over and the whole list is imune to psy. so no tactical flees .
I may do a similar list a bit toned down for comp reasons I do have leftover screamers =)

andy10k
21-05-2008, 13:57
Randomly half off-topic but, how are people converting up their Fateweavers? Anyone seen any pics of any converted ones yet? :P

I know most people will probably say a 2 headed LoC model is about right, but i dunno where to get a second neck piece from lol.

Your Mum Rang
21-05-2008, 14:19
I'm considering using Galurach as my counts as.

stampy
21-05-2008, 14:29
Wasn't galrauch a dargon posessed by a lord of change anyway?

Akuma
22-05-2008, 10:28
"Yeah Akuma this is the latest flying circus as already posted zero for comp .
Its very hard to beat and will tear up the newbies but the hardened vets will be able to beat it .
This game is all about tactical positioning. Making a super hard list does not make you a great general [although you very well may be] .
Akuma would you like to play against this list??
Do you think it would be enjoyable?
As far as taking it down most armies will have some tools to deal with most aspects of it ,while its a very tough list with proper positioning you should be able to cover the fly over and the whole list is imune to psy. so no tactical flees .
I may do a similar list a bit toned down for comp reasons I do have leftover screamers"

Well someone got the nail on the head at least - thanks

As for question - no I will not ever play one - I play with my friends mostly for about a year - I was very tired of tournament sceen - driving miles to get to other tournament - neglectig familly afairs and so on - I just dont have the spirit to bark at other mature guys saying - reroll that one - and so on ...

I just wanted to show how much the new DE can be broken ... I think the ending sentacne of this thread would be - If you think this is not broken - you would pown it or some other word put in here - go - ask best player in your area to prox it agins you and see for yourself ...

Amen

lordkull
22-05-2008, 11:09
Yeah the new demons are very very tough ,but I think when all the dust settles that the books will balance agauinst themselves ,if you just compare 7th edition books they arn't too terrible ;)

Look empire has tools in a regular build to compete with the demons cannons ,a walter stanks helblaster.

high elves have their always strike first ,high ld ,rbt's ,fast chariots and dragon princes[when playing against flyers I usually hang a chariot to cover my back field]

vamps are all imune to psy and have some tough kits and that magic 5 C.R is hard to over come with normal non infantry lists [imho]

orcs are kind of hanging =( they do have cheap boyz which are a great deal pointswise but the rest of the book is somewhat lacking.
dwarves can blast em with cannon magic bolt throwers and have a fantastic core infatry with a magic 5 C.R and their charectors can be tooled to the max

I personelly like the tourny scene and have only met a couple jerks in them last 10 years and the group that I often game with are top notch tacticians and play within teh spirit of the game aka for fun first afterall its a game and supposed to be fun :)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-05-2008, 11:35
I will say that I don't think Akuma was trying to say everyone should kiss his butt (so to speak) or anything, or that his list was the best ever thought up. He was merely replying to ideas from others on ways to beat his list, by pointing out things he thinks his list has that would counter those ideas by opponents.

Some people were only posting things like:

Gunline.

Your Dead.


-------

Or, "my such and such army would crush that." - end.

---------

Where I think Akuma went a bit wrong was getting a bit too heated/mean in some of his replies to people. Not EVERYONE was being short-testy-in their replies to him, so I don't think I would have taken the same approach to replying that he did a few times.


-----------

As to the list though - it looks pretty good and would win a fair bit of games, like most lists. It is not invincible, and Akuma never said it was. He merely thought it would be a tough list for a lot of lists out there to face. He is probably correct in that regard.

I would suggest a few changes though.

- No Disc for the second Herald. Go with the Flying Chariot for both of them. I think that's the best option for Tzeentch Heralds, and it's only +40 pts beyond what you are paying for the Disc anyways. Also, get both of them with Master of Sorcery and Spellbreaker. That's my chosen combo and I think the best setup for their Gifts, particularly in a competitive environment (Dispel Scrolls are always useful).

Something like this might be a good challenge:

Kairos (General)

Herald on Chariot with Battle Standard, Master of Sorcery, and Spellbreaker

Herald on Chariot with Master of Sorcery and Spellbreaker

The Bluescribes


11 Horrors

10 Horrors

10 Horrors


3 Screamers


5 Flamers

5 Flamers

-------

1993/2000


If it's a 2250 list, you could structure it differently and add in some more bulk to the Horror units or another units of Screamers.


------------------

Personally, I'm planning on trying a 4-Chariot-Riding-Herald's List called "Chariots of Fire" :p which I first mentioned in another thread.

I almost think that's more effective, overall, than this kind of Kairos list given how many points you end up shoving into Characters. In this list it's 1181, but in the Chariots list it's only 925 = 1025 with Banner of Hellfire thrown in, if you want it.

Your Mum Rang
22-05-2008, 12:52
Personally, I'm planning on trying a 4-Chariot-Riding-Herald's List called "Chariots of Fire" which I first mentioned in another thread.

Something I seriously considered myself.

Armilthuan
22-05-2008, 13:26
Nice post Fulgrim's-Chosen.

A little side-track. What could one do to put more CC potential in such list?

Would a unit of Bloodcrushers with herald be to much or to costly?

The Red Scourge
23-05-2008, 10:20
I like the list and its strategy. A bit too one tracked and herohammery for my tastes at the moment (but something I could have built a little while ago), yet definitely something that can dish out a lot of pain.

This thread on the other was massive fun. I hope you guys had as much fun posting your insults as I had reading them. Especially Akuma, you really come off as quite the ass – but you made a fine list for winning games.

Your Mum Rang
23-05-2008, 10:47
GoC added Skulltaker and some Bloodletters to the list and loves it. Oh, and Fleshies.

Akuma
23-05-2008, 11:59
He didnt ADD it - he changed the whole ide - I'm not saying that it's worse then mine - probably better but the whole VP denial concept goes out of the window in one swith stroke. As FH are 8" and not fast cav you realy must concider how to get good CR out of them.

Your Mum Rang
23-05-2008, 12:27
Wow, you'll disagree with anything won't you?

To add something you'd have to take away. Adding a CC element is hardly pts denial.

As for a CC element... I'd prefer the Chariot Heralds as they can go VP denial if needed and combi charge if needed!

Armilthuan
23-05-2008, 12:48
*chuckles*

I'll try and write a list today when I get home and see if I can incorporate some CC potential in that list, although I'm not too keen on Points denial.

Akuma
23-05-2008, 13:11
"Wow, you'll disagree with anything won't you?

To add something you'd have to take away. Adding a CC element is hardly pts denial."

Adding CC element is taking away points denial - I agree with you on that.

Also I write it onece agin ( probalby my bad english ) - I dont think GOC list is weaker no sir - I just think its kind like diffrent idea - He has diffrent options - like CC but also more to worry about on the ground as hounds are not as hard to catch as screemers he substitued them with ( Althought as I said - thay are much much better in dealing damage - at the cost of beeing less manuvrable )

Your Mum Rang
23-05-2008, 21:51
Indeed :D I was just responding to a question.

Hey! We agreed!

Dead Man Walking
23-05-2008, 22:28
If you go flaming chariots you need flames of tzeentch and spell breaker to up your damage, as you need to be dropping bodies to win, if you loose more than a few models you may be in trouble.

Punk_in_Drublic
23-05-2008, 22:56
Hey! We agreed!

yay! Applause! Drinks all around!

*Starts conga line*

LAter,

-Punk

Da Black Gobbo
23-05-2008, 23:14
I think this is a really small list, you are playing 2250 points and you have less than 60 models, sure you have the uber lvl 4 Sorceror with all the lores plus 3 lvl 1 and 2 lvl 2 more sorcerors, but some shooting will ruin your day, the list isn't bad but you have to play it very wisely because every casualty you suffer counts, my WE will take out unless 2 units by shooting while the CC units go forward to engage in combat, and rip your pink and blue bits apart, i'd like to play against this.

lparigi34
24-05-2008, 00:50
On topic... I played against one guy in my gaming group that probably read this post before I did, so he fielded a "very" similar army.

At first I was kind of annoyed, I must admit. All this flying guys, all this magic. I thought I had no chance of making it.

I fielded my usual all rounder Savage Orc very mobile list. Two units of Savage Orc Boar Boyz, lord in one, BSB in other. One is upgraded to BigUns.

The rest of my army was a couple of 25 man foot orcs and single lvl1 caddie, 2 wolf rider units, 2 spider riders, two chuckas, Doom Diver and cant remember exactly what else, as I made minor changes from battle to battle.

Just for the records, It was a carnage, almost everybody died in this battle! But I finally got to win.

With all that Tzench magic, expect a few snake eyes...

scarletsquig
24-05-2008, 00:59
Why don't you take this army to a tournament and see what happens. An empire list with walter and 2x Stanks and 4x cannons would prbably beat this list. 3+ ward can only go so far. Every skaven army I have seen uses Storm Banner, and 3 people at my gaming group play skaven.

The standard empire tourney list won't have problems. Cannons = dead chariots, very quickly.

3 wizards, rod of power = 8 dispel dice per turn and a few scrolls too. If you stick the horrors at the back they won't be casting anything so that nullifies the strongest part of the army.

Very very fragile.

Dead Man Walking
24-05-2008, 01:19
4 units x daemonettes + 4 heralds with siren song and this list is dead in the first turn, 8 inch move in and then dictate the flying 20" charges into seperate units that strike first. Game over.

Xyon
24-05-2008, 01:31
wow its hard getting through this thread, what is the whole point of this thread other than to say "my list is great and i know how to use it to beat anyone" ?

I would like to play against it as a challenge to my generalship, I would probably lose anyways seeing as I'm not that good of a warhammer player, but it would be fun once or twice. But I think I could make a list that stands a good chance against this.

Akuma
24-05-2008, 11:14
"Indeed I was just responding to a question.

Hey! We agreed!"

Yeah now for the fallowing drink feat - the first turn is on me :D

As for rest of the replys - As Fulgrim and others said - This army is for pros - the whole VP denial concept is hard to play , grasp and do on the battlefield - it's totaly diffrent then anyother thing out there , other than static gunline , other then fast CC army and so on ...

If enemy can get shoot at any other thing then horrors ( with missile troops not with cannons or bolth throwers ) you are doing something wrong

And for the record - this is not a tournament army per exelance as it will be hard to massacrate the enemy - it is just very annoying for the enemy to play with :)

Once agin i must say that remarks such as this and this would destroy it are derivated from the false concept of knowing what opponent will bring - sure in Wfb each and every army could take something that would blow this army to bits - but if you think about standard tournament metagaming all the things that would be able to deal with it easy would suffer from the other standard set ups :)

I will post my normaln list - as we play without special chars around here for critiqu and comments

Thx for all the input guys !

Your Mum Rang
24-05-2008, 12:10
I think the only thing harder to play than Pts Denial is the pure Slaanesh list.

Akuma
24-05-2008, 13:01
I agree once more - I think slaanesh is extreamly hard because of 2 things - 1) He is typical Jack of all trades in deamons world - nowhere near as magicky as tzeensh , not as potent in cc as khorn and not quite tought as nurgle ... - he is speedy but very valnurable ... 2) I think KoS is realy the most difficult GD to use in 2250 or 2000 format ...

Your Mum Rang
24-05-2008, 13:08
But they DO have a lot going for em. An army that wins not via blasting opponents with shooting or magic nor by bashing them in CC. It relies on LD manipulation to win games. Pretty damn cool.

Akuma
24-05-2008, 14:11
Yeah but it's quite hard to pull of -

1) you have to have 4lvl KoS
2) 2 tzeensh heralds with doom and darkness
3) Banner of -1 to LD

Then KoS must roll nice spells :D

I'm pretty sure that there is some combination that would be good in 2K or 2250 format but when I try to use KoS I either wind up with no enought magic power to cast spells I need or to much point invested in characters :/

Your Mum Rang
25-05-2008, 10:53
Still, pretty original :D

Akuma
25-05-2008, 11:05
Also people usualy totaly forget that with phantasmagoria and -2 to LD banner even 9LD units will have hard time passing terror test ... :D

I just cant hit the nail on the head with KoS yeat :/

Johnnyfrej
25-05-2008, 17:22
The standard empire tourney list won't have problems. Cannons = dead chariots, very quickly.

3 wizards, rod of power = 8 dispel dice per turn and a few scrolls too. If you stick the horrors at the back they won't be casting anything so that nullifies the strongest part of the army.

Very very fragile.
Don't forget the ever loveable Sigils of Sigmar. 15 points to give any unit MR1 is a steal.

My 2250k Sigmarite Warband will nearly shut down Akuma's magic phase.

Popemobile (stays roughly in the middle of formation to give everyone L9 and Hatred from Aura of R.)
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)

3 Blocks of 30 Swordsmen, full command
3 Detachments of 9 Swordsmen
2 Detachments of 15 Archers (screens army)
3 Great Cannons

Although it only has 7 Dispel Dice, every spell directed at my blocks of Swordsmen count as having an extra DD. I have taken this list to several local tournies. I have a win ration of roughly 60%. It is nowhere near a power/chedder list, but it definately isn't weaksauce. I haven't gone against a Tzeentch daemon army with this one but have gone against magic VC and usually does pretty well.

Akuma
25-05-2008, 18:55
"shut down Akuma's magic phase."

And why would I ever target troops that I wont have any problem avoiding ? - Honestly - I would only try to kill of your cannons - not so hard as you have only 7DD and no scrolls. Then Archers and that would be all - You would have no other means of catching anything alse then horrors - and that would be 360 pts ...

As I said - ask your friend and give it a spin ;)

andy10k
25-05-2008, 21:51
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)
Mounted Warrior Priest, Sigil of Sigmar, 2 CCW (attached to Swordsmen)

Did i miss something? Sigil of Sigmar is a magic item, how are you able to take multiples of it?


Popemobile (stays roughly in the middle of formation to give everyone L9 and Hatred from Aura of R.)

Also for you to be able to pass on the Aura of Hatred, you must be the special character guy, who of which has Frenzy, so you would be easily lead out of your battle line :S

SilentStalker
26-05-2008, 03:40
The thing that I find hardest to grasp is how all this uber dmg is supposed to get dished out. 10 dice (since you seem to be sending the horrors to hiding), so im guessing max 7 spells per turn (4 from Kairos and 1 for each herald, 1 fore scribes) since with all that magic defense, not much is getting through.
And before you go on another rant, I understand the points denial concept. I could take on this list with my 2k HE list. Tooled prince w/ s.dragon, 2 defensive mages (high magic) Pheonix guard main block with MR2, bolt throwers, some archers.
We play the game of who can deny better: my 350pt unit of P.G. with both mages, making the block around 700pts., and then the 630pts prince chewing through your army.

Curious as to what you would do against such a list

Kerill
26-05-2008, 06:04
Really Akuma, Your Mum Rang is right, people take the time to post suggestions, even if you think they are completely wrong it isn't that hard to be polite about it.


Your list is hard, no doubt about it, but can and will fall down if your opponent is ready for it. TBH I'd be happy enough putting my my Tzeentch daemon list up against yours with a fair bit of confidence.

The point your mum rang was making about GOC's playtesting was that he felt that just magic wouldn't be enough in a tournament setting. A lot can go wrong, thats why he added the khornate troops. Also he has flesh hounds because they can charge 32" on the first turn with Kairos in the army as well as move 16" for position then flank charge. So it's an army with evil magic and some hard hitting troops and the best low-point character killer in the game. GOC's list has more synergy between its parts than yours does. You have 360 points of horrors that is more or less useless except for the DD and maybe holding quarters.

Kairos is probably the best of the GD options, especially for a magic army but, as I pointed out to GOC, he only has I1. Teclis with shadows and its game over as soon as he gets an IF. Against a 2nd gen slann you have a similar danger and there is some danger form other armies with shadows lore.

Lizardmen with skinks, 2nd Gen slann and priest with the cube of darkness+mark of old ones will have a whale of a time against this army as well. (As would the JSOD)

Your Mum Rang
26-05-2008, 10:00
This is why I am building a more CC oriented Tzeentch list. Points denial can be unsatisfying for both sides.

Akuma
26-05-2008, 10:54
"
The point your mum rang was making about GOC's playtesting was that he felt that just magic wouldn't be enough in a tournament setting. A lot can go wrong, thats why he added the khornate troops. Also he has flesh hounds because they can charge 32" on the first turn with Kairos in the army as well as move 16" for position then flank charge. So it's an army with evil magic and some hard hitting troops and the best low-point character killer in the game. GOC's list has more synergy between its parts than yours does. You have 360 points of horrors that is more or less useless except for the DD and maybe holding quarters."

Kerill after reading your post I've acctualy changed my mind - GOC is right - in a setting with special characters ( so teclis torek and so on ) this army would be rock paper and scisors type - massacrate one and die with no chance aginst others - He thought of better more balanced solution that "deals" with this problem - while it requires more thought it nulifies the possibility of drawing opponent you will just have no chance aginst.

I stand corrected !

Mind only that it was a thought experiment - I dont use special chars - but as i said I see the point in your post

@ Mum - why bother with chickein in CC army and not go for thrister :D ?