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Lordsaradain
18-05-2008, 10:20
Having just finished my Great Unclean One (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143317) I need some input on how to use him.

I tried him out once and he managed to get stuck in with a unit of zombies(a VERY bad idea, I know, damn vanhels...) and didnt fare too well, but at least he survived.

He's got decent movement (compared to other infantry anyway), and has a potential to be a very good caster.
With W10 T6 and 5+ ward, potential 4+ regeneration and forcing enemies to strike last, he can act like a great tarpit, but he wont fare well against ranked units, as he wont be ble to cause alot of wounds with his 4 attacks. But he can make small elite units that rely on causing alot of wounds instead of ranks to win combat, bounce right off him. Still, a 600pts tarpit is proably abit expensive...

With his good movement, he can get ahead of your units and line up flank charges, because even if his 4 attacks arnt that impressive, he can negate ranks, and will be unlikely to suffer any wounds from returning attacks.

The build I used was Noxious vapours, Trappings of Nurgle and Slime trail in addition to being a level 3 wizard. Fighting zombies he didnt have much use for any of these upgrades, but then again, having him fighting zombies was never my intention.

What builds would you use for a GUO, and how would you use him in games.

fubukii
18-05-2008, 12:09
try pairing the great unclean one with a bsb who has the stubborn banner, possibly give him the regen, or the d6 wound weapon and find the unit with your enemys general in it. With stubborn ld 9 rerollable your GUO wont take wounds and will eventually get to that character :)

StefDa
18-05-2008, 13:55
I prefer Trappings of Nurgle and Noxious Vapours, in addition to being a leve 3 or 4 Wizard. The reason for choosing level 3 is to get just that one more dispel dice than level 2 offers, and level 4 is good because it lets him wield more spells and power dice.

DullMentalRacket
18-05-2008, 14:43
I can't see the GUO as a caster ever being worth the points. Because they limited heralds to lvl 1 youre never going to get enough spell dice to make many spells get through. If you do run him, youll need to go very character heavy and probably take a blue scribe (which isnt fluffy at all).

Im giving mine trappings of nurgle and stream of bile. I dont see the noxious vapors all that worth it, youre never going to die to combat, youll always get to strike back. If anything, youll die from shooting or combat res. I think the stream will be very useful vs. good opponents who will do all they can from letting the GUO reach combat, and with m6 that shouldnt be all that tough. With the template he'll still be useful when he's marchblocked.

Can the GUO march and use the breath attack? i thought monsters could do that. might be wrong.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-05-2008, 17:19
You had a good combo of Gifts on him, Lord Saradain....that's the combo I tend to use the most, as it makes him very good against units or characters (chance to kill most of the enemy front-line before they get to go, even against enemies that have charged him).

Don't forget you are STR-8 in the first round of any combat due to your Plague Flail default equipment ! (though it wouldn't really matter against pathetic Zombies).

One thing I have been suggesting on the Daemonic Legion forum is to consider giving a GUO "bodyguards", if you think he's going to end up in CC against enemy units that will not hurt him, but will just grind away and keep him pinned in place (more or less).

I have suggested the use of Beasts of Nurgle for this purpose.

Here is some of what I said there, for what it's worth:

---------
---------
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I've been arguing for their use as "Bodyguards" for the Great Unclean One.

I am curious to hear from people if this is possible - as I see nothing in the main rulebook which ever addresses it.


Basically, this is going to work best in a mono-Nurgle force, or one in which you are okay with taking Beasts for both your Rare choices.


Rare: 1 Beast of Nurgle (or more, but 1 is best for base-to-base reasons)

Rare: 1 Beast of Nurgle ( ditto )

Lord: Great Unclean One

------------

During deployment, place one beast of Nurgle down...then leave appx. 50-mm space (2-inches give-or-take) between him and place your second Beast of Nurgle down.


So you would have BEAST----BEAST (where the ---- represents 50-millimeters)


Then at the end of deployment, when you place all your characters, plop the GUO down between them with a sickening squish :p and begin play.


The idea here is that when the GUO is advancing 6-inches/12-inches (march), the Beasts are able to keep perfect pace with him since they also move 6.

Additionally, the main benefit is that they serve as vital Combat Resolution-through-Kills modifiers for when the GUO is forced (or wants) to fight a ranked-up enemy unit.

Normally, the GUO is only going to get a max of +4 for Combat Resolution, due to his being limited to just 4-attacks in the new book. With the Static Combat Resolution factor for most enemy blocks (+5 usually), you would always be losing the combat and have to test for Instability. With the Beasts of Nurgle, the formula changes since you would be able to get the GUO, and BOTH beasts into base-to-base contact with the front of an enemy unit, even if they are only 5-wide 20-mm's

(your total frontage is 40-mm Beast, 50-mm GUO, 40-mm Beast = 130-mm wide)

(enemy frontage if 5 wide of 20-mm each is = 100-mm wide)

(enemy frontage if 5 wide of 25-mm each is = 125-mm wide)

--------------

Either way, you will match up front to front and have at least corner-to-corner with the Beasts, so they are good to participate in the combat.

Their D6+1 STR-4 Poisoned Attacks, while not a "guaranteed thing", are certainly able to help out the GUO against many enemies, and possible give him another +3-4 kills, which translates to Combat Resolution...and ultimately helps the GUO to have a chance at breaking the ranked-up enemy formation.


It also adds +6 to the Unit Strength of the Daemon side (Beasts are US-3 each, IIRC), meaning your GUO and "Guards" are now US-16....given a few rounds, or against certain enemy units of 15-models or less, you now Outnumber them too, for a further +1 bonus to Combat Resolution.

------------------

I don't see anything in the book that says you can't place friendly models right next to each other like this, ensuring they will all end up contacting an enemy unit at the same time, if charging/charged...correct ?

If there is no prohibition, this seems like a great option for Mono-Nurgle, at least.

* Remember the Beasts have Slime Trail each, and with one on each flank of the formation/GUO - you don't have to worry about enemy's coming up to the sides or behind you - just as long as the GUO also has Slime Trail, that is *


----------------

* * Note that one potential weakness of this formation is that since the Beasts are only 40-mm based models now, they cannot full cover the "rear" edge of the GUO, when placed side by side with him. This means that a clever flying enemy can fly behind you, then charge the rear of your GUO - ONLY - and never have the rear of the two 40-mm Beast bases touching him, thus making it mono-on-mono between your GUO and whatever enemy character/monster/etc. it may be - - - this is not TOO much of a problem, given the way you can beef up the GUO, but it should be considered, in any case * *

theunwantedbeing
18-05-2008, 17:22
I'de give him the balesword and go around challenging things.
Perhaps with noxious vapours as well.

Just because the balesword is awesome.

Max zero
18-05-2008, 17:47
Trappings and Noxious Vapours are almost compulsory. Trappings helps to stop Cannons from ruining your day. Vapours stop nasty heroes with big weapons charging you and chopping you up. The final one i'd take is Pestilent Mucus. Everytime you the GUO gets wounded every enemy in BtB contact has to take a toughness test or take a wound. With 10 wounds that can be really nasty.

SevenSins
18-05-2008, 18:06
I was thinking much the same as Max zero, although I plan on having him cast spells aswell (expensive I know).

Fulgrims-chosen: As for the joining with beasts, why not join him to a unit of 2 beasts? That way you don't spend 2 rare choices on singular beasts... Or am I missing some rule that says they can't form a unit?

The new book seems to favour mixed demonic over cult armies.. And I'm considering a Nurgle/khorne or nurgle/tzeentch (not very fluffy I know) army led by a GUO. Tzeentch may suply the PD necessary to make spellcasting guo more viable...

StefDa
18-05-2008, 18:42
I was thinking much the same as Max zero, although I plan on having him cast spells aswell (expensive I know).

Fulgrims-chosen: As for the joining with beasts, why not join him to a unit of 2 beasts? That way you don't spend 2 rare choices on singular beasts... Or am I missing some rule that says they can't form a unit?

Page 30, my friend.

Goruax
19-05-2008, 14:33
One excellent combo for a caster GUO is:
Level 3 (ALWAYS give him Miasma of Pestilence)
Trappings of Nurlge (4+ armour, 5+ Ward and 4+ Regen can never be a bad thing on a T6, 10 wound beasty)
Noxious Vapours
Pestilent Mucus.

Throw 4 Dice at Miasma every magic phase, and pray for IF.
That then means only a few things can hurt you. Then if they do manage to wound you (Great Weapons, etc) then they must take a toughness test at T1 or take a wound.
Oh, and striking last, with you hitting them on 3's and wounding on 2's with a -5 to their armour.
Provided you get Miasma off, your GUO will be indestructible for a whole turn whilst in combat.

Mozzamanx
19-05-2008, 15:14
Quick question, do wounds from Pestilent Mucus count for combat resolution? They are inflicted in combat, but it does not specify that they do.

If they do, then a possible combo would be Trappings and Mucus- Any wound which does get through is gonna bounce off your armour, could wound them, and you still get your 4 attacks as normal. You would want to charge him into units with buckets of low strength attacks, like Daemonettes or Witch Elves. That way, they have a reasonable chance of wounding, but not getting through that armour.

However, its probably best not to get Miasma with this combo, since they could never ever hope to wound you, and so you can only get a combat resolution of 4.

Goruax
19-05-2008, 16:48
If they do, then a possible combo would be Trappings and Mucus- Any wound which does get through is gonna bounce off your armour, could wound them, and you still get your 4 attacks as normal. You would want to charge him into units with buckets of low strength attacks, like Daemonettes or Witch Elves. That way, they have a reasonable chance of wounding, but not getting through that armour.

The wound has to be suffered. That is, the GUO has to lose it after failing Armour, Ward and Regen. Not just wounds that have caused a wound.


However, its probably best not to get Miasma with this combo, since they could never ever hope to wound you, and so you can only get a combat resolution of 4.

With it's casting level of 3+, it's not hard to pick and choose when/if you want it, so if you were about to charge into high strength enemies, then you could cast it. Also would be very useful against dragons and such, which would effectively render them useless.
Your point that Miasma making Mucus almost redundant is valid, but it does make your GUO nigh-invincible and more than capable of reducing the ranks of the enemy, even in death (40-odd toughness tests, potentially at toughness 1 = a lot of dead enemies)

Arguleon-veq
20-05-2008, 01:35
I dunno, probably not the best for competative play but I kind like the idea of slamminghim into some seriously elite infantry with stuff like pestulant mucus and nurgles rot and just racking up kills that way. Id still give him trappings so he can get into combat but against good infantry he should still suffer a few wounds to get kills. + Nurgles Rot.

Id quite like the idea of a unit of Blood Knights charging him, plus hes not easy to avoid if he wants to hit the Blood Knights himself.

Cap'n Facebeard
20-05-2008, 02:27
Has anyone tried Nurgling Infestation? I noticed it says "any Magic phase", therefore you could potentially increase a Nurgling unit by 4 bases by the end of Turn 2. That sounds pretty sweet to me.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-05-2008, 11:16
Trappings and Noxious Vapours are almost compulsory. Trappings helps to stop Cannons from ruining your day. Vapours stop nasty heroes with big weapons charging you and chopping you up. The final one i'd take is Pestilent Mucus. Everytime you the GUO gets wounded every enemy in BtB contact has to take a toughness test or take a wound. With 10 wounds that can be really nasty.

This is exactly my build for my GUO, and with Level 4 magic.

With Miasma in play, he turns the hardest character into a mewling kitten, and with Plaguewind (which he can cast in combat), he can turn those nasty rank and file troops into supporting Nurglings.

My GUO parades around the place with two supporting beasts of Nurgle. Even though he cannot actually join them, they can be positioned so that it is almost impossible to charge the GUO without pulling the Beasts into the combat. I agree with Fulgrims Chosen, it works well. Because I take them as one rare choice, it means that the GUO always ends up on the left or right.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-05-2008, 11:20
BTW I thought the Beasts of Nurgle were mounted on 50mm bases?

I had mine as part of the Spearhead, which just had all sorts of bases in a bag.

Neknoh
20-05-2008, 13:09
Trappings and Mucus allong with something else, Vapours is NOT a necessity.

For added fun, you can throw in a lvl1 Herald on a Palanquin with Trappings as well. Now, the trick here is to burn a lot of dice at casting your nasty nurgle spells with the GuO and then save one dice for each of your characters. Once all spells have been cast, each character casts the 3+ spell (name elludes me), this causes Palanquins to rack up CR like there's no tomorrow and it also prevents wounds to rack up on the GuO. Furthermore, the enemy will be T1 for the T-test when he wins combat.

Remember, even if your opponent only wins combat by 1 (outnumber, ranks, banner vs 4 wounds), he'll be loosing 4 models to the Mucus.

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2008, 13:16
Nurgling infestation is rather good.....upto 12 bases of nurglings for 50points.

Grogugluk
20-05-2008, 18:07
I'm fairly sure the only nurgle spell you can cast in combat is the first one.

I'd love to be wrong on this but I don't read anywhere it says "may be cast on units in combat" which I think it has to say to be able to do.


I was also hoping for a clarification on pestilent mucus. Say I lose combat fail my leadership test by 4. If I have miasma up does and am in base contact with 4 enemy models do they have to take 16 Toughness tests? or just 4? Since I'm taking 4 wounds.

Really curious on this point.

Grog

Grimtuff
20-05-2008, 19:42
I'm fairly sure the only nurgle spell you can cast in combat is the first one.

I'd love to be wrong on this but I don't read anywhere it says "may be cast on units in combat" which I think it has to say to be able to do.


The only spells you cannot use in HTH are Stream of Corruption and Rancid Visitation. All the rest are fair game. :)

Though, i'm curious too. Why take a Balesword? He's S8 in the first round of HTH. That's a -5 save modifier, not many characters save Chaos and Dwarf lords are getting up from that.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
20-05-2008, 19:55
:confused: Hmm...Grimtuff is a Chapter Master here with a long history of gaming experience and insights....is he correct in thinking Plague Wind can be cast into Close-Combat though ?

If so....that would be insanely potent...especially combined with a Miasma of Pestilence effect. . . ? ?

Chaos Mortal
20-05-2008, 20:04
I'm fairly sure the only nurgle spell you can cast in combat is the first one.

I'd love to be wrong on this but I don't read anywhere it says "may be cast on units in combat" which I think it has to say to be able to do.


I was also hoping for a clarification on pestilent mucus. Say I lose combat fail my leadership test by 4. If I have miasma up does and am in base contact with 4 enemy models do they have to take 16 Toughness tests? or just 4? Since I'm taking 4 wounds.

Really curious on this point.

Grog

this came up in a game i was playing but we just played it as 4 wounds (rather than the 8 that would have been caused) but after the game whenever i thought about it im not so sure we played it right... if nyone has a definitive answer id be very happy to hear it.

Horus38
20-05-2008, 20:12
Though, i'm curious too. Why take a Balesword? He's S8 in the first round of HTH. That's a -5 save modifier, not many characters save Chaos and Dwarf lords are getting up from that.

But only 4 attacks. The balesword means that even if only 1 wound slips by you'll be able to kill whatever character you're fighting.

Grimtuff
20-05-2008, 20:15
:confused: Hmm...Grimtuff is a Chapter Master here with a long history of gaming experience and insights....is he correct in thinking Plague Wind can be cast into Close-Combat though ?

If so....that would be insanely potent...especially combined with a Miasma of Pestilence effect. . . ? ?

Oh drat....

This seems to be like the IoN thing again. :p
1st spell it is obvious it can only work when in HTH
2nd is a no no
3rd is not a MM, but requires no LOS, so can be cast when in HTH, correct?
4th is a MM, so no use when in HTH
5th just says "visible to the caster" so you can use it on that guy standing in front of you you've just cast Miasma of Pestilence on :evilgrin:
6th requires no LOS, so can be cast when you're in HTH. Not sure about casting on a unit in HTH though...

That's how I read them anyway. ;)

Chris_Tzeentch
20-05-2008, 22:18
Oh drat....

6th requires no LOS, so can be cast when you're in HTH. Not sure about casting on a unit in HTH though...

That's how I read them anyway. ;)

Why not? Its not a magic missile, and certainly doesnt need line of sight. As long as the target is within 18 inches of the caster, it can be targetted. Not one of the vets in my club had any issues with me doing this whatsoever.

Neknoh
20-05-2008, 22:21
Aye, that should be about it actually (the spells)

EDIT: Btw, every model in BtB has to test once for every wound taken, meaning that yes, that's 16 times, since it's 4 times per model. However, the question here is... can it affect more than the original four models? Or do those four models take four Toughness Tests and excess failiures are lost

Grogugluk
21-05-2008, 05:14
Oh my fault.. I haven't played enough fantasy. forgot it was only MM you couldn't cast while you are in combat.

Makes me like the GUO even more.


I was really curious about the maximum of 4 dying for mucus also.

Hmm...

Chaos Mortal
21-05-2008, 08:43
i think 16 wounds should be caused however i think it could also be 16 T tests with a maximum of 4 wound? this will hopefully be FAQed

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-05-2008, 10:10
Yeah, it's amazing just how many things they wrote without thinking of clarifying or making them 100% clear right at the outset. It's quite annoying that each Army Book that is released cannot be written with them addressing all (or most) possible questions/situations that could come up.

Even simple things like saying "Note that Pestilent Mucous wounds count for Combat Resolution in the round they are caused and failed Toughness Tests taken as a result of this Gift can cause more models to be slain than those that are initially in base-to-base with the Daemon."

Something EASY like that would be great. Why does GW fail to put things like that in initially ? Why do they force themselves to have to release a book in May, then immediately FAQ/Errata it in July ? Ugh. . . :rolleyes:

Chaos Mortal
22-05-2008, 11:49
oh how a simple proof read would save so much time and money =)

Neknoh
22-05-2008, 12:05
Ok, just had a thought. It's bound to MtG though, but bear with me:


The ambiguity of the gift is whether or not it triggers once all wounds are taken or once a single wound is taken. To me, it seems as if though it triggers once every time a wound is taken. As such, it'd trigger four separate times if you lost instabillity by four.

Therefore:

1 wound
4 T-tests, remove models as appropriate
1 wound
4 T-tests, remove models as appropriate
1 wound
4 T-tests, remove models as appropriate
1 wound
4 T-tests, remove models as appropriate

Note that you'll have to paus in between each test due to the possibillity of models separate from mass-wounding a unit being present such as Unit Champions and characters.

Chaos Mortal
22-05-2008, 12:32
also are unit champions affected? you have to say in advance you are attacking them but if he is in base contact i would say he would have to test.

Neknoh
22-05-2008, 12:43
That is a yes, it's models in btb, not R&F models in btb

Chris_Tzeentch
22-05-2008, 21:09
GUO just keeps getting better and better!!!! The biggest flaw is only four attacks though.

Neknoh
22-05-2008, 22:59
Who needs more than four attacks when four lost wounds due to Instabillity can almost oblitterate a unit?

Goruax
22-05-2008, 23:06
If 16 Toughness Tests are taken, then potentially 16 models can be killed.
As earlier, it's models in base-to-base contact between the casting the beginning of the caster's next magic phase.
So first wound; 4 die, another 4 step up, then they die, followed by another 4, then another 4, potentially.

Grogugluk
23-05-2008, 06:33
Ya the thing is you don't even need to have miasma cast. It helps a ton.

Say you are fighting a big block of swordsmen or spearmen or some other toughness 3 unit. Lose combat fail your test by 3 or 4 and that is still quite a few dead swordsmen.

I think this power really helps the GUO not get stuck in with a big block of troops. If they beat him and get him some instability wounds he is going to kill 2 toughness 3 models per wound caused. So half wounds on your GUO and thats 10 dead models plus the ones he kills normally.. so now he is outnumbering them.


The more I think about it the more I think he is going to have to have that power.


Another question.


Say somehow you get killed by the VC super 100point weapon or another weapon of the same type. One that states if you take a wound your dead.


Does the opponent need to make 10 Toughness tests? or just 1?

Chris_Tzeentch
23-05-2008, 06:36
I would have said one wound caused, therefore one toughness test taken.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
23-05-2008, 09:30
Nah, I think it would be 10. Remember that the recent FAQ for VC's addressed the question of "do I get the full number of attacks for something like Red Fury, if I Killing Blow a creature or kill it with the Frostblade, or is it only ONE single attack I get after the model is removed ?"

Their answer was something like, "You get the number of bonus attacks equal to the Wounds of the target you insta-killed, as if you had just inflicted the total number of wounds you would have needed to kill it normally".

--------

Going off that same recent logic by the Studio, I can't see why insta-killing a GUO would not result in his Pestilent Mucous triggering 10-times too as "10 wounds are taken off" by the effect of your attack, etc.


Thoughts ?

Mozzamanx
23-05-2008, 09:53
Hang on, back to the Pestilent Mucus issue- Its not a case of 4 separate wounds. If you lose by 3, you will instantly take 3 wounds, rather than 1 at a time.
Wouldn't that mean that everyone in base contact is hit 3 times, and then people step up afterwards? Rather than taking 3x4 Toughness tests, and then killing all of them?

Neknoh
23-05-2008, 09:54
Indeed, insta-gibbed GuO on full wounds = 10 T-tests on models in btb, not only the vampire... oh how sweet.


Vampire moves up, strikes last.

GuO hits with 4 strength 8 attacks, possibly murdering the vampire rather brutally

If vampire survives, he now strikes, gets one attack past the Armour, Ward and Regeneration, gibbs the GuO.

Let the rolling ensue

Chaos Mortal
23-05-2008, 10:20
lol i cant wait to get a game just got the book and i think its one of Gws best since the wood elves, now just to take the plagueriders of my beasts and i should be fine =)

Chris_Tzeentch
23-05-2008, 13:42
I hadn't actually seen the FAQ myself - thats nuts!

Has anyone got a link? I need to find evidence to support this if I pull this one out of the bag against my usual opponents.

Neknoh
23-05-2008, 13:58
Keep the Plagueriders, use the rules for Bloodcrushers, I think those are strictly more useful than the Beasts of Nurgle

Chaos Mortal
23-05-2008, 14:02
i dont think the daemon FAQ come out in june - this is mainly just theory

chris zeentch i see you have an undeafeted record (albeit 3 games) wit your nurgle legion, might i ask what your list is? im finding it hard with the new book, plaguebearer seem terrible without a herald and with 2 units with heralds + bsb and GUO theres not much left to put anything in.
Currently im not sure weither i like the changes to plaguebearers they are not resilient at all and babysitting them is expensive.

but back on topic the GUO is incredably resistant to damage especially with Trappings, Vapours and Mucus but he ends up more expensive than previously and is signifigantly worse in cb.

I was hoping that my new list could be similar to my old legion one eg

GUO
Herald BSB
16x Plaguebearers
16x Plaguebearers
4x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
4x Plagueriders
3x Plagueriders

but with the new book this list dosent work -.- any help is appreciated ( i know that last bit is a bit of topic)

@Nekoh --- thanks for the advive but i think im just going to leve them on as the more i thought about it they dont really need to be justified , i mean they can just represent the +1 att on d6+1 =)

Chris_Tzeentch
23-05-2008, 20:29
chris zeentch i see you have an undeafeted record (albeit 3 games) wit your nurgle legion, might i ask what your list is? im finding it hard with the new book, plaguebearer seem terrible without a herald and with 2 units with heralds + bsb and GUO theres not much left to put anything in.
Currently im not sure weither i like the changes to plaguebearers they are not resilient at all and babysitting them is expensive.

Here is my list :-

Grimbelch Mouldermaggot
1 Great Unclean One
1 Level 4 Wizard
1 Noxious Vapours
1 Pestilent Mucus
1 Trappings of Nurgle

1 Epidemius

Warpspittle
1 Herald of Tzeentch
1 Disk of Tzeentch
1 Flames of Tzeentch
1 Master of Sorcery

Blackrot
1 Herald of Nurgle
1 Level 1 Wizard
1 Palanquin
1 Noxious Vapours
1 Slime Trail
1 Army Standard
1 Banner of Unholy Victory

16 Plaguebearers
1 Plagueridden
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence

10 Plaguebearers
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence


10 Plaguebearers
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence

2 Beasts of Nurgle

5 Flamers of Tzeentch

Which comes to 2245 points.