PDA

View Full Version : Empire vs High Elves



minionboy
19-05-2008, 23:41
I was wondering if anyone had any specific strategies for High Elves when using Empire. A good place to start would be units to avoid using, for example, I'm questioning the effectiveness of Great Swords against them, wondering if I can rely on enough of them remaining to attack back.

Thanks in advance!

OldMagik
19-05-2008, 23:45
. . . . shooting you can easily out shoot them do so you don't have to do gunline just get a few units of handgunners and some hard infantry that can weather a few hits, also try helblaster :D

Scallat
20-05-2008, 00:08
A unit of empire knights will have a field day with high elves (as long as you don't charge sword masters) spearmen in particular are almost incapable of hurting models with a 2+ save. The hellblaster is definately your friend. High Elves will really stuggle with the stank (but then who doesn't?) Your basic infantry though, will get slaughtered. Leave it at home. A lot of your army choices will involve second guessing your opponent. Is he likely to take a Dragon? You'll be wanting a cannon then. Lots of cavalry? Detachments will help you redirect those away from your units.

Against highelves I tend to take just a scroll caddy in the wizarding stakes.

sulla
20-05-2008, 00:51
I was wondering if anyone had any specific strategies for High Elves when using Empire. A good place to start would be units to avoid using, for example, I'm questioning the effectiveness of Great Swords against them, wondering if I can rely on enough of them remaining to attack back.

Thanks in advance!

Hochland long rifles... especially in outrider units. Target the lvl2 mages. Take a wound off them and they have to worry about miscasts. If the HE play teclis, the priority is him instead.

soots
20-05-2008, 05:33
Gotta love Empire, SOOOOO flexible.

TK421
20-05-2008, 15:23
Mortars hurt a lot when they land in the middle of 20 Spearelves.

kroq'gar
20-05-2008, 15:37
Swordsmen. LOTS of swordsmen. with ws 4 and a 4+ sae in combat the static combat res of your ranks vs their will mean you win (and you'll outnumber them nearly 2 to 1 too boot).

25 Swordsmen with detachments of Swordsmen will take out the rank and file.

Take a few cannons (a must, for dragons, bolt throwers or chariots) and mortors, and a helblaster or two to target their elites.

For heros:

An arch lector on alter. Personal favorite is to take van hosts and mace of helstrum. Issue a challenge, if they accept with a her swap stats, if its a unit champion, smash him with the mace, if they refuse, reire the champion and direct a mace-blow to the character.

2 wizards, one with rod of power, the other with a scroll and a luckstone.

If hes magic weak, store dispel dice into power dice. If hes magic heavy vice versa. use you luckstone to reroll a failed dispel if hes magic heavy, or a failed casting if hes weak.

Finally a BSB to hold the swordsmen together. Give him full plate, barded steed, white cloak and sword of power. You'll have a decent fighter (2+ save, 5+ ward and 3 st 5 attacks) in addittion to the reroll.

Manflayer
20-05-2008, 16:04
The battle standard bearer cant have sword of power AND white cloak its going over his points limit on magic items. But I would disagree on swordsmen detachments, Free company would be much better having 2 attacks each and being cheaper they can still hurt any high elf infantry unit (excluding phoenix guard) and because they are cheap can get more in their flanks might even make 2 detachments of these on either side of parent unit! Hmmm sandwich elf

Mortars would be the better choice imo, followed by cannon and pistoliers who can whip round a flank and cause some serious harm. And as others have already stated knights are good idea aswell as the helblaster.

ghengismark
20-05-2008, 17:15
The advantages of the high elves are their martial skill and high leadership. The disadvantages of the high elves are how fragile they are (low toughness, bad armor) and how expensive those fragile units are.

The advantages of the empire are their versatility and their excellent infantry hordes and artillery.

So deny the high elves by not getting into melee combat. And exploit their disadvantage by bringing damaging ranged weapons to bear.

I would focus on artillery. Helblaster, 2-3 mortars and a cannon. Also, a few units of handgunners or crossbowmen. Make him march across the board to you while you cut him to pieces.

A unit or two of knights and a steam tank to move to quickly intercept his units that start to get close to your gun line. They are high armored to nullify the elves "strike first" ability.

Lastly, some magic protection. Don't focus on magical offense, but on defense. Maybe a lot of warrior priests, or 2 wizards with 4 dispel scrolls.

Milney
20-05-2008, 17:42
Nuke him! 4 Engineers with Pigeon Bombs, 4 Mortars and 2 Helstorm Rocket Batteries!

Scorched Earth Policy! RAWR

*cough* Ok... maybe not ;)

SilentStalker
20-05-2008, 17:46
I love how "gunline" seems to be the answer. Can you not use tactics? You will definatly outnumber him, so why not outplay him instead of just sitting there? Trust me that game will be the most boring you have ever played.

Milney
20-05-2008, 17:53
I love how "gunline" seems to be the answer. Can you not use tactics? You will definatly outnumber him, so why not outplay him instead of just sitting there? Trust me that game will be the most boring you have ever played.

I don't think I've seen a single response of "Gunline". Some suggesting more artillery than others, but if you are really suggesting that he goes toe-to-toe with a martially superior force just for "honour" then I need whatever your huffing.

Empire have access to a wide variety of ranged weapons, it's part of thier character and list. Denying yourself any artillery or ranged core just because you think it might be harsh for your opponent is a bit ludicrous - its a wargame. You're there to kill his guys and he's there to kill yours.

There's nothing wrong with using a balanced amount of artillery to counter-act the raw fighting potential of the enemies troops.

ghengismark
20-05-2008, 18:04
I love how "gunline" seems to be the answer. Can you not use tactics? You will definatly outnumber him, so why not outplay him instead of just sitting there? Trust me that game will be the most boring you have ever played.

Yes, gunline is somewhat the answer. If you read the responses, you will see the reasons for this are specific to this situation. The elves are fragile to ranged but brutal in melee. The empire have brutal artillery. Elvish infantry will eat empire infantry alive. I agree that gunlines are boring and overused by those without talent, but in this case, that is the best tactic with these two armies.

Besides ranged and knights, which were suggested, all the empire has is infantry and magic. Magic will get shut down by high elves, since they have the best defensive magic in the game. And infantry will get destroyed by any high elf unit. Even the old empire trick of compensating for medicore infantry by using detachments to deny ranks won't work. Do you REALLY want to get 3-6 more swordmasters in the battle by flanking him with your detachment? Forget about it.

All that is viable for empire is ranged and armor (knights and steamtank).

kroq'gar
21-05-2008, 04:12
The battle standard bearer cant have sword of power AND white cloak its going over his points limit on magic items.

I meant +1 st (hence 3 st 5 attacks)


But I would disagree on swordsmen detachments, Free company would be much better having 2 attacks each and being cheaper they can still hurt any high elf infantry unit (excluding phoenix guard) and because they are cheap can get more in their flanks might even make 2 detachments of these on either side of parent unit! Hmmm sandwich elf.

Good luck with that. Remember, he hits before you, with free companies ws he hits on 3,s, wounds on 4s and you have no save. For 1 point more, he hits on 4s, and you have a 4+save. Your not trying to win on kills, but on static (he has no ranks, you have a flank, ranks and outnumber for +5 into the combat, +6 if you hit from both flanks at once).

Pistoliers take one turn of RBT and they are gone.

Knights are an option but not a personal favorite of mine, i prefer foot sloggers for the imagery.

The List i recommended above is versatile and competative, without relying on stupid proportions of firepower to turn you game into a one phase wonder battle (oh, i had a bad shooting phase. now hes reached me, im massacred). (oh, i had a great shooting phase, i've got a massacre).

Marwynn
21-05-2008, 05:44
I was wondering if anyone had any specific strategies for High Elves when using Empire. A good place to start would be units to avoid using, for example, I'm questioning the effectiveness of Great Swords against them, wondering if I can rely on enough of them remaining to attack back.

Thanks in advance!

Greatswords may or may not be a good idea, depending on the HE army's composition. If he's going to be using say White Lions you'll both have two Stubborn units fighting each other, and it's quite probable that he'll chop you up good before most of your troops fight back.

Not to mention Sword Masters.

A combined approach is probably best.

As always don't go Magic-heavy with the hope of overpowering through spells. Use a few bound-items.

Try the Orb of Thunder if he has a Dragon around; he should also have some Great Eagles. This does two things; forces them to use two dispel dice at least to ensure its removal (I'd risk just one if I had a High Elf Mage as they get a +1 to their dispel results) and of course makes such threats easier to kill.

Coupled with say Aldred's Casket of Sorcery and the Doomfire Ring and you have the capability to draw out his dispel dice. You may or may not get a few other spells through, but having a Warrior Priest around would help in that.

Mortars or Helstorms would be a good choice. I know it's commonly accepted to take a pair of cannon or mortars but I like to take one of each to keep things interesting and flexible.

He'll be more mobile than you unless you go all cavalry. His heavy cavalry would be better than what you're throwing around, including IC Knights. Oh, and his fighty characters are real, real fighty.

Don't charge the Spears. Ever. Outriders would probably be a waste; there should be more than enough elven ranged firepower to eliminate them while they're standing oh so still.

Pistoliers, as always will work out great. Just be careful before you try and charging any units guarding the Bolt Throwers; many, myself included, use the Lothern Sea Guard who can pepper you with arrows while you're out of range then swap to a 5x2 formation and go all prickly spears on you. Most fast cav can't handle them, or just don't know how.

Take some handgunners if he's into Chariots.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
21-05-2008, 15:45
I am a high elf player and have played against my friends empire army a couple of times. I disdain the steam tank for reasons obvious enough. You can take the volleygun and soem missiles. I would recommend knights, greatswords are stubborn, and flaggelants are unbreakable. Another strategy would be to know which units to avoid fighting completely (swordmasters). Another strategy could be magic. If he is not magic heavy his units will drop like flies to magic missiles.

Crazy Harborc
22-05-2008, 02:02
Crossbows instead of handgunners. Against HEs I use HtH swords for the detachments. Deploy carefully, try to set detachments so they can see those HE flanks as they approach.

ASF and better than Empire magic plus HE great weapons. To me, those justify Empire's using it's "gunline", make it crossbows for the gunline.;) Try to charge those HE chariots in the flanks.

winkypinky
22-05-2008, 03:02
It seems like a bit silly question when you have things like handguns (also known as the perfect elf killer for the bargain of 8 points) tanks, cannons/pistoliers/mortars depending on the enemy (If he likes to huddle up around a hill just take 4 mortars and some rocket batteries and he will never do that againg.) cannons for dragon/chariots lists and pistoliers rip apart balanced HE lists all day.

In the rare slot you have the abdomination known as the steam tank. (Or the rocket battery for the anti shooting lists or hellblasters vs cavalry lists)

2thesword
22-05-2008, 13:51
just a quick question but will your opponent be tailoring his army completely to fight empire?

If not - then I'd spare a thought and maybe not go a complete cheesy gunline. Otherwise you'll probably find yourself playing 1, max 2 games before your opponent gets bored stupid.

for those advocating muliple hellblasters, plus some xbows/handgunners, some outriders and/or pistoliers and just for fun (for you) a s'tank... try playing against this army for a few games. see how utterly boring it is.

minionboy
22-05-2008, 18:03
Yeah, I don't want to entirely tailor it against him, but at the same time, I don't want to take units which will be just tossing him victory points.

I'm more leaning towards rockets than Helblasters at the moment, I hate rolling to hit and would rather take my luck with a couple artillery dice and a scatter. :)

DarthBinky
22-05-2008, 18:30
I haven't noticed it mentioned yet, but don't forget that High Elf morale is only slightly better than your own Empire troops (ok, we can have a LD10 general without fielding a very expensive SC, but outside of that, most Elf units have Ld8, occasionally 9). Force a lot of Panic/Fear/Terror tests and the elves are bound to start running.

Of course, the trick is figuring out ways of doing that with an army that doesn't have stuff in abundance that causes those things...

crackbabytoo
23-05-2008, 15:51
Crossbows, HellBlaster, cannon, Outriders and pistolers. 1 unit each I think then just lots of swords men and a small to midsize unit of flagellants.

Knights will be nice and so will a priest. I would use militia as one of my detachments the 2 attacks each will leave a mark and hopefully enough will be left to take away ranks.