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nonnus
20-10-2005, 11:44
http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_3151_23.jpg

The first position was the one on the right. The red squares are the command group. The unit reformed into the position on the left. The command group (besides pivoting a bit) remained in exactly the same place and the other models moved the regular move range into the new positions seen on the left.

Was this an illegal reform? What in the rulebook proves this was an illegal reform?

thanks

Atrahasis
20-10-2005, 12:18
The left hand formation is illegal, as the standard bearer MUST be in the centre of the front rank.

The reform is also illegal, as the centre of the unit must remain the same.

Sinew
20-10-2005, 12:21
I don't have my rulebook with me, but here's what I think:

- to answer the basic question first, I believe that when reforming you have to reform around the central model of the unit, and no model may move more than their total movement value. It is therefore likely that the reform pictured would be illegal on both counts as it seems to have reformed around its right side, and also the models that have come right across from the far left will have moved quite some way.

- an additional issue that arises looking at the diagrams, is that I believe there are some restrictions on the place a command group go in a unit at any time, and I think the unit pictured was therefore deployed incorrectly. As far as I know the Standard bearer must be either the central model in the front rank. If I recall the positions of the other command models is a debated issue, with most players assuming they must be deployed next to each other, but the only rules reference to this being as part of a Q&A answer to the question of whether champions can move positions in units in the way that characters can.

Hope that's of some help, I'll try to have a look at my rulebook and post a reference if I can find one.

nonnus
20-10-2005, 12:46
thank you!

Search
21-10-2005, 15:03
I would disagree the rulebook says the standardbearer must be in the Front rank , it says nowhere that it must be in the middle.
The only time a standardbearer can be in the second rank is when there is not enough place in the frontrank ( due to heroes and other command moddels).

Izram
21-10-2005, 16:03
Incorrect, unfortunatly.
If the front rank does not have enough room for command and characters, then the characters are displaced to the second rank, not the command. And it does say under commands that the standard must/should be placed in the center of the front rank, but that has been argued here before and Gav has reported as well that it doesn't really matter.

Sinew
21-10-2005, 16:21
The only thing I based my statement that command models must be in the front rank on was this question from an official GW FAQ (avaiable on the UK Games Workshop Website):

Q. Can Champions be moved into a fighting position in the same way as a character can, as described on p.97 of the Warhammer rulebook?
A. No, they cannot. Champions remain part of the command group at the centre of the front rank of their unit (emphasis mine)

Granted, command group positioning was not the subject of the question being asked, but it does seem to indicate pretty clearly that they should go in the centre. In practice it only reaally makes a difference when it comes to trying to engage a character but not engage the unit champion. The fact that the command group may have been mis-deployed has no bearing on this query: the reform was illegal regardless.

T10
21-10-2005, 17:30
"Illegal Null-pointer Exception"

As already pointed out, the original formation was incorrect.

Furthermore, the unit does not need to reform about the location of the command group, but it needs to reform about the centre of the unit. The centre is the middle point of the unit, not the line that passes through it's middle: A 5x5 unit has it's center point under the model in the 3rd column of the 3rd rank.

However, if you need to establish the reform point down to the exact millimetre then I guess you are playing a very tight game indeed!

-T10

MarcoPollo
21-10-2005, 22:25
As I remember playing a TK army several times with that banner that gives its unit a free reform, I was confused as well as to how liberal my opponent was at making reforms.

He had the command thing done properly, but would move the center of the unit quite liberally.

For instance, he would have the center of his pre-reform become the outside corner of his post reform. That model didn't move and he said that because this center model didn't move every other model could move.

A 5x5 unit with the center at the 3rd row 3rd model, became a 5x5 unit with the old center piece now at the 5th row 5 model and every other model shifted around so that he could flank with his unit instead of a frontal charge.

I let him get away with this because in turn I would use the one character with fear negates autobreaking to compensate for his liberally interpreted rules on reform.

Arthion
22-10-2005, 01:46
Strange that the banner doesn't have to be in the center of the unit in the front rank. The RB clearly says as much. Even better next comes the musician and then the champion. If there are any characters they will be placed in the front rank too. If there is only place for the banner and musician and a character the champion has to retreat into second rank, if there is only place for two, the character has to go into second rank too.
That is my interpretation from page 108. Don't know why it shouldn't matter anymore where those models should be placed in the unit.

mageith
22-10-2005, 05:18
That is my interpretation from page 108. Don't know why it shouldn't matter anymore where those models should be placed in the unit.
Gav agreed with you once:

From: Gavin Thorpe Subject: RE: Gav - Position of the Command Group?Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:00:37

Hey there,My previous reply on this has been that by the letter of the rules the command group is placed in the centre of the front rank (or as close as) with the standard bearer. However, in my games Im happy with placing them in any order at the centre of the front rank, and that a character that joins the unit should be considered a member of the command group.
Thisll be jiggered with a bit in 7th ed - there's only a small amount of exploitation avaiable from moving characters around in units, and essentially a command group at the centre looks cool. I've never known anyone complain to me or their opponent about the positioning pof the command group, and if they do they should be told to take it all a little less seriously!

GAV

Tarax
27-10-2005, 13:29
There is a slight problem with the wording of the rule:

"Except, as discussed elsewhere [where?], these special models [ie Musician, Standard Bearer and Champion], including any characters that have joined the unit, are always positioned in the front rank, with the Standard Bearer in the middle."

Does this mean that the SB is in the middle of the front rank (with the other special models next to it) or in the middle of the special models (but not necessarily in the middle of the front rank)?

mageith
27-10-2005, 15:18
There is a slight problem with the wording of the rule:

"Except, as discussed elsewhere [where?], these special models [ie Musician, Standard Bearer and Champion], including any characters that have joined the unit, are always positioned in the front rank, with the Standard Bearer in the middle."

Does this mean that the SB is in the middle of the front rank (with the other special models next to it) or in the middle of the special models (but not necessarily in the middle of the front rank)?
I'd interpreted it as Battle standard in the middle of the rank and all other command models anywhere in the front rank. But I think that's a minority interpretation. But to me, that's all its saying.

Mage Ith