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View Full Version : Kairos vs Lord of Change vs Bloodthister and KoS



kaintxu
21-05-2008, 02:14
Ok so here is the deal, LoC is suppossed to be taken as a sorceror, plus al his gifts are mainly magical gifts, on the other hand, make jum a lvl 4 sorceror with some good gifts puts him into about 600.

Kairos fateweaver goes for 625 points and is way better sorceror than any LoC, since he gets the +2 to casting, not being would on lower than 3+, 3+ ward save, reroll, and all the spell thing, so if we want a caster we should stick with kairos if special character are allowed (which were I play are).

The other side of the coin is HtH combat, were LoC is way better than kairos, but here is the deal, if we make our LoC lvl 4 sorceror we mainly want him for magic, because if your in combat, that means no magic. If we leave him as a lvl 2 sorceror, we could just go with bloodthister or KoS sionce they are way better on combat.

So the thing is, how are you going to use the LoC? as a lvl 4 or lvl 2 o 3? plus if you want a lvl 4 one, wouldnt it be better to go with kairos?

StormCrow
21-05-2008, 02:25
I'd always choose Kairos over a lord of change, because with my play style when using tzeentch the extra ws, strength, toughness, and attacks are fairly useless, i just want to cast loads of spells, and few do it better than kairos...and i like that he is cheaper than a lord of change to boot.
I guess it just comes down to what your play style is and whether people would mind you using special characters.

Horus38
21-05-2008, 02:38
As you said the big difference between the two is their combat potential. The big thing to remember is that you are taking Kairos for magic and not to get stuck into CC, BUT he might be attacked by an enemy. This is where a magical LoC shines in his ability to defend himself against the attentions of others while he's doing his magical thing.

Personally I'm taking Kairos and keeping him in the middle of of my army line. If you wanted a character that is say casting Gift of Chaos in the middle of the enemy army I'd go with a magical LoC.

On the special character bit: they are ALWAYS allowed, which is why GW has started putting them in the front of the books along with all the other character entries.

Znail
21-05-2008, 02:39
My view is like this. In a mono-tzeentxh list so is the LoC better, but Kairos is better as support for a mixed army. Its pretty obvious why Kairos works well in a mixed army as you will have a fair amount of dedicated melee units so Kairos or LoC can concentrate on spellcasting.

In the pure Tzeentch force so is it likely that you will end up having your horror block charged eventualy, being daemons so can a large block actualy survive and hold, but will need help to win. This is where you can use the LoC, a flank charge can win the fight even against good troops. In the end so can that extra melee power change the balance alot as you will hopefully have reduced the enemys strenght with the power of Tzeentch.

This was just an example, but the idea is that the option to use your LoC in melee opens up options you dont have if all your force is dedicated as pure casters. With the number of spellcasters in a Tzeentch force so is it a fairly small loss to only get to cast gift of chaos with your lord for one turn.

Znail
21-05-2008, 02:44
On the special character bit: they are ALWAYS allowed, which is why GW has started putting them in the front of the books along with all the other character entries.
It may be GW's wish but its mostly only in GW tournaments where they are alowed as the balance between them is less them optimal. Its somewhat strange as they are much less extreme in 40k and thus generaly accepted there.

Horus38
21-05-2008, 03:08
It may be GW's wish but its mostly only in GW tournaments where they are alowed as the balance between them is less them optimal.

I am not trying to say that all players believe that all special characters are balanced/fair/etc. I am just saying that regardless of someones opinion of whether you are allowed to use it or not is irrelevant.

Of course there's nothing to stop them from not playing you, but the fact stands that all special characters do not require your opponents permission to use.

snyggejygge
21-05-2008, 07:37
I am not trying to say that all players believe that all special characters are balanced/fair/etc. I am just saying that regardless of someones opinion of whether you are allowed to use it or not is irrelevant.

Of course there's nothing to stop them from not playing you, but the fact stands that all special characters do not require your opponents permission to use.

Plenty of tournaments & many gaming groups bann specialcharacters anyway, which do you prefer, some fun games w. a few friends (or in a tournament) leaving the specialcharacter at home, or not having anyone to play w. you, because they donīt like specialcharacters?

Leogun_91
21-05-2008, 08:02
Of course there's nothing to stop them from not playing you, but the fact stands that all special characters do not require your opponents permission to use. Everything requires your opponents permission to use, I would for example allow almoast anything but chaos dwarves (havenīt decided about the hellcannon yet) and the special edition white dwarf and if I donīt want to face those guys I donīt need to. The relevant issue is more regarding how many that would allow them to be used, it is for example much more likely that you are allowed to use a dwarf lord than Thorgrim Grudgebearer.

StefDa
21-05-2008, 08:20
On the special character bit: they are ALWAYS allowed, which is why GW has started putting them in the front of the books along with all the other character entries.

Well, players always have the option of refusing to play against special characters. Which many do.

Neknoh
21-05-2008, 08:44
Players have the option of refusing to play, period. Some people claim that SC's unblanace the game, I don't. But let's not get into that. We all share different views and as such share different ideas about a game vs a special character.

This discussion is supposed to be about the LoC vs Kairos.

Now, the key point to remember about a Lord of Change is not only its combat potential, but it's abillity to use it together with a US of 5. I cannot remember Kairos' exact ammount of wounds, he might be rank breaking, he might not. However, when stuck in, Kairos is a lot less likely to effect the battle than a normal Lord of Change.

Couple this with the nastyness of Chariot-borne Heralds of Tzeentch, whom also happen to be rank breaking and flying. The Tzeentchian flying circus is not only about VP denial and magicy shootiness, but also about combined charges from several directions. With three models doing a lot of close combat damage each and each having both flying and rank breaking, we can get those charges. The only army able to pull off a VP denial spellcaster that doesn't waste its potential is the Lizardmen army in their second generation Slann Mage priests. Kairos can avoid harms way, yes, but should he get caught, he's pretty much toast.

Horus38
21-05-2008, 16:51
Well, players always have the option of refusing to play against special characters. Which many do.

Which is exactly what the last bit in my post said. You're not really contributing anything to the conversation with your post.


Everything requires your opponents permission to use...

It most certainly does not. Your example of Chaos Dwarfs is something that Games Workshop does not have an official book for so of course it requires permission. The special edition White Dwarf?! Again, something put out in the White Dwarf magazine.

None of those examples have any bearing on stuff coming out of an Army book.

W0lf
21-05-2008, 17:42
plus if you want a lvl 4 one, wouldnt it be better to go with kairos?

first off i have absolutly no problems with special characters and will happily play with/against them.

Lord of change wins by a mile for me. kairos is a better wizard but the lord of change has so much more versatility (which you need in a 600 pt model.)

lvl 4 lord of change has 5 S 6 attacks and is US 5. In the flank he will break anything and hes realy useful for taking down that pesky warmachine thats trouling him.

US 5 on a flying model really cant be discounted. The combat versatility puts the lord of change ahead of Kairos imo for this very reason.

Plus if you go mono-Tzeentch then the extra casting is almost a moot as you have so much magic anyway. Oh and lord knows you need combat support. Throw the lord in with a unit of horrors and most things will lose, ~3 kills + standard + ranks is pretty good.

That said i really really like Kairos's fluff and theirs no reason to not take him at 3K where you can field a better CC greater daemon.

I personally like:

Kairos + Bloodthirster
2x Lord of Change
Kairos + Lvl 4 KoS

All 3 work well.

Grimtuff
21-05-2008, 19:35
(havenīt decided about the hellcannon yet)

Erm, as of this months WD, it's now in the standard HOC list. Put that in your "Tournament Legal" pipe and smoke it. :rolleyes:

Gaftra
21-05-2008, 19:48
I look at Kairos in terms of what he can do for my army with spell combos from any lores you want. throwing things like bears anger on a herald, doom and darkness on a unit with the slaneesh powers to destroy leadership, the lore of life spell that protects a unit from str 4 missile fire and so on. Its alot like VC when coming up with combos for the army so in terms of individual power its a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

Horus38
21-05-2008, 20:28
Erm, as of this months WD, it's now in the standard HOC list. Put that in your "Tournament Legal" pipe and smoke it. :rolleyes:

Haha, hear hear. Although two rare slots seems to balance things out nicely. I wonder if that will stick through to the new book.

Also Gaftra I have a thread up dealing with the optimum spells for Kairos where I'm trying to nail down which are the best spells for him in different situations which goes along the lines of what you're saying.

Defender of Ulthuan
21-05-2008, 22:07
Kairos is always the best choice, EVEN FOR COMBAT.

What? A caster in combat? No, Defender, you silly man, that's not how it works!

Let us never forget the flaming sword of rhuin and all of it's glory.
Put it on Kairos, He will be a CC beast!

Defender

kaintxu
21-05-2008, 22:41
not so much of a CC beast, you will hit on 2+ and ahve S8, but you will only have 2 atacks actually, so its not so mucho of a great help but a little help because of his 5wounds, so unit S =5 flack charging and not alowing ranks

Aflo
21-05-2008, 23:44
I think Leogun was saying that in a 'friendly' gaming setting he isn't forced into playing anyone or anything in particular - if a guy uses a hellcannon and asks for a game, you just say 'bog off'. Kind of falls to pieces in a tournament setting where you can't pick and choose your opponent's army though...

More on topic: I've been having problems deciding this myself, planning a mixed demonic legion as I am. So far I'm gravitating towards a level 4 LOC with either Dark Magister and Demonic Robes or Tzeentch's Will (pretty keen on using Tzeentch magic in my list, hence the lack of Master of Sorcery). As I'm going for a balanced list, to take on all-comers I'm not opting for an immense magic phase - maybe just the LOC, Standard of Sundering, the lovely Blue Scribes and possibly a lvel 1 upgrade on the Nurgle Herald. Sacrificing the LOC for Kairos in such a setting would mean getting rid of one of my key flankers, so it's a resounding 'no' to the inclusion of that bad boy.

The problem lies with what hero choices I could replace my LOC with. I'm thinking of swapping it out for a Herald of Khorne on Jugger with the classic Firestorm Blade and Armour of Khorne, a Herald of Tzeentch in chariot with Master of Sorcery and some left over points, most likely for another unit of Seekers. Obviously this second option stunts my magic slightly, swapping out my level 4 for a level 2, but I'm hoping to be pretty well covered with my Battle Standard on the defensive side of things.

What are the opinions of my fellow Warseers?

Horus38
22-05-2008, 01:48
Kairos is always the best choice, EVEN FOR COMBAT.

What? A caster in combat? No, Defender, you silly man, that's not how it works!

Let us never forget the flaming sword of rhuin and all of it's glory.
Put it on Kairos, He will be a CC beast!

Defender

No, he wont...

Dark_Mage99
22-05-2008, 08:46
A Lord of Change will though.

Kaintxu, what do you mean you don't want a LOC in combat because it means no magic? On the contrary, since it's a large target it can even target units behind the unit it's engaged with. The only spells you won't be able to cast are magic missiles.

Hive Fleet Spectra
22-05-2008, 09:34
Kaintxu, what do you mean you don't want a LOC in combat because it means no magic? On the contrary, since it's a large target it can even target units behind the unit it's engaged with. The only spells you won't be able to cast are magic missiles.
22-05-2008 02:48


In the games I've played thus far with my army I have used my LoC in an attacking style, moving him behind enemy lines where possible and unleashing havoc.

I do like Kairos and his fluff, but atmo I would prefer to have the LoC because he lends a good amount of combat and is useful for combined charges with my khorne elements. Plus in a game I played yesterday Gift of Chaos really shined, hiting 4+ units with this spell is very nice, especially against warmachine crew if they happen to be near by, or indeed just for reducing your opponents ranks. If your opponent runs his units five wide, then all you need to do is kill one model with this spell to reduce a rank.

Glean Magic is also good when in combat, especially if your opponent has the Lore of Fire and happens to have chosen the Flaming Sword of Rhuin. :evilgrin:

fubukii
22-05-2008, 14:33
glean magic is very effective vs skaven sadly ( i dont like it when plauge or warped lightning is stolen from me)

But on the topic of kairos vs a loc. Loc makes much better flanking unit but casts spells slightly worse (due to lack of the twin heads/will combo he can only have one or the other, and the lack of 8 extra spell :), and kairos is more survivable still can negate ranks but cant add much punch to the fight.

Kairos can use the lore of metal spell though to kill knights and stanks, beats cowers to lock down enemy dragons, unseen lurker is nice for flanking, cheap d6 or 2d6 missle spells to burn dd.

Overall i think no matter which you choose it will be a effective addition to your army.
3k id like to try kairos and a loc :P

Havock
22-05-2008, 14:47
No, he wont...

Blind Fury II

Starring Kairos Fateweaver.

Defender of Ulthuan
23-05-2008, 14:15
Sorry all, thought kairos had the same number of attacks as a standard LoC (don't quite hae the book yet).
But a FSoR will do it for a standard LoC.

Defender