PDA

View Full Version : Nehek invocation and demon standar of sudering.



kaintxu
21-05-2008, 13:38
Ok does de VC spell invocation of nehek count as being from the vampire lore?

Will it be afected by a demon army carrying a standar of sudering (-2 to al casting spells from the chosen lore)

Xirathnix
21-05-2008, 15:44
IoN is not from the vampire lore.

Malorian
21-05-2008, 17:30
So you mess up all of the other spells but you don't completely win because of one item ; )

kaintxu
21-05-2008, 19:29
Well actually doesnt really mess them since what they use to win is the IoN, throwing it 15 times at 3+ which is pretty much unfair ill say

damiengore
21-05-2008, 20:00
Well actually doesnt really mess them since what they use to win is the IoN, throwing it 15 times at 3+ which is pretty much unfair ill say

Any vampire army that relies on summoning garbage troops with IoN is losing the game because their not casting spells that actually do something. Trust me the summoning thing is a gag with no teeth. The only reason a summoning army wins is because the opponent is wasting their time killing garbage troops that won't die. Do yourself a favour and kill the vampires.

vilo
21-05-2008, 22:06
Thats a good tactic except he will heal the vampires, they are extremely hard to kill in combat and you will run due to being outnumbered by a fear causing enemy.

I play with vc's and against them and IoN is probably the most broken spell in the game, but i do allow the standard to affect either IoN or the lore though i know thats not technically RAW.

Rhamag
21-05-2008, 22:14
Are all the the magic spell "groups" counted as Lores?

Even ones like eg. Skaven, which is called "Magic of the Horned Rat" and "Skaven Spell List" but never actually "Lore of Skaven"?

Not looking for holes, btw, just wanted to be straight. Cheers.

kaintxu
21-05-2008, 22:26
As vilo said is not so easy to kill vampires, he can hide them on a unit, and then ill be hard to kill since he can defy you every turn with skeleton champ, and then bring him back up, and defy again.

On the other hand, vampires are S5, T4, and Vampire lords are S5, T5, so not so easy to kill them when with the IoN they can heal themself wounds.

Spirit
21-05-2008, 22:34
Any vampire army that relies on summoning garbage troops with IoN is losing the game because their not casting spells that actually do something. Trust me the summoning thing is a gag with no teeth. The only reason a summoning army wins is because the opponent is wasting their time killing garbage troops that won't die. Do yourself a favour and kill the vampires.

You are so so wrong. Are you aware you can restore knights, grave guard, varghulfs and black coaches all with a 4+ spell? (3+ on most summoning lords)

I am a vampire player and this spell is used every turn, why spend 240 points on 10 knights when i can spend 144 on 6 of them and just regain my loses?

Baindread
21-05-2008, 22:52
You are so so wrong. Are you aware you can restore knights, grave guard, varghulfs and black coaches all with a 4+ spell? (3+ on most summoning lords)


3+ is only available when the vampire have lord of the dead or the other master powers and cast on the appropriate unit. You will never get below 4+ on any other unit.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-05-2008, 01:52
His point is that it's very easy to spam, if desired. My main opponent does it frequently. Some games he gains back over 500-VP's in free stuff, I'd reckon.

Example of 1 turn of magic from him sometimes:

Invo- 5 Ghouls

Invo- 4 Ghouls

Invo- 6 Skeletons

Invo- 3 Skeletons

Invo- 2 Skeletons


= 20 x 8 = 160 points worth of "free" models in 1 Magic Phase



Not unrealistic at all, since he has 12-14 Power Dice in most of our games.


I simply don't have enough Dispel dice to try to "one-off" and counter his stuff, especially when he has that +1 to Cast thing going on with some of his Vamps. He rolls a 4...it counts as a 5...the spell is cast...and I'd have to toss 2 Dispel Dice to have a shot at stopping him from getting that off.

As the game progresses, it becomes worse, because you are saving your dice to stop a critical Van Hel's Danse, and have even less chance in deciding to stop/or not an Invo-Spam.


----------------
----------------


As to the question...it's really one of the gray areas that is going to HOPEFULLY be clarified in the Daemon FAQ in early July. Rumours have been saying that Alessio said in some email it IS supposed to be considered a spell from the Lore of Vampires though, and thus would be able to be affected by the Great Standard of Sundering.

We shall see. . .

Spirit
22-05-2008, 02:02
3+ is only available when the vampire have lord of the dead or the other master powers and cast on the appropriate unit. You will never get below 4+ on any other unit.

I see you have not yet read the rules for the skull staff. You should, it is excellent.

Lordmonkey
22-05-2008, 03:42
IoN is not part of the lore of Vampires. It's on a seperate page of the book, for a start.

Dark_Mage99
22-05-2008, 08:37
Yeah, Invocation is not part of the Vampire Lore. As far as I'm concerned, every group of magic spells in the game is a "Lore", so it can be used on Skaven, etc. Armies don't get out of being weakened just because a writer wanted to dip into his vocabulary a bit.

Spirit
22-05-2008, 08:40
See i agree that its not part of the lore, but i'm willing to bet that when the FAQ comes out for daemons, they will say it is.

Mind you they dont often cross army books in FAQ's, so if it wasnt in the vamp one, there may yet be hope!

EvC
22-05-2008, 09:57
I agree with Spirit. It's not part of the Lore, but thge FAQ will probably tell us it is. Another reason to take Forbidden Lore...

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-05-2008, 10:15
The reason that the rumoured Alessio Email is supposed to be saying it IS in the Lore is that in the main page on The Lore of Vampires in the book, it has a sentence like:

"In addition to Invocation of Nehek, a Vampire knows additional spells from the Lore of Vampires, up to his casting level" - something like that - I don't have the actual book in front of me, but my recollection is something like that.


It can be argued that the wording they used is meant to suggest that Invocation is in the Lore of Vampires, and in addition to it, they have more spells based on their Wizard Level and spell rolls each game.

It seems they just wanted to make it clear to players that ALL Vampires naturally know the Invocation Spell without having to roll for it, and they also know (further) spells from the Lore of Vampires based on their levels, etc.


I admit it's rather unclear/confusing the way they have it written though. I was of the opinion that it was NOT of the Lore of Vamps, but we shall have to see what happens when they FAQ it. I'd like to hear more about the rumoured Alessio-email, but it's been quiet on that front since news of it came out a week or two ago.

Akuma
22-05-2008, 10:48
@ Fulgrim's-Chosen

I think we all know that when the FAQ hits IoN will be from the necromantic lore :) - Each and every spell is from some lore - the question is the RAW rule - it has been corrected in previous FAQ - even aginst the common sens - My bet is that when the FAQ is out lods of VC players will feel very very raped :D

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-05-2008, 11:10
Right...I guess I just find it odd that they would not address it in the recently released Vampire Counts FAQ.

Like:

Q: Is Invocation of Nehek a spell from the Lore of Vampires ?

A: Yes, though not spelt out directly as such, Invocation of Nehek should be considered a spell from the Lore of Vampires.

---------------------------

Instead they didn't say anything about that...and will force us to wait till July for a formal ruling (we hope). Why ? Seems odd when they could have gone ahead and just answered it with the Vamp FAQ.

Akuma
22-05-2008, 11:15
I dont know if thay think that much :D I'm getting a fealing that thay like players querreling about rules :D

GranFarfar
22-05-2008, 12:13
Yeah, Invocation is not part of the Vampire Lore. As far as I'm concerned, every group of magic spells in the game is a "Lore", so it can be used on Skaven, etc. Armies don't get out of being weakened just because a writer wanted to dip into his vocabulary a bit.

The same question is granted for Tk invocation and OK Gut magic. Not once is the word lore actually used, as far as I know to describe these.
How can you be so sure that it is the case that everything is a lore?

Not saying you are wrong, this is one of those that go either way, depending on what GW says in the faq.

I know this is not really being a rule question - but OK and TK would be seriously crippled if the banner worked against them.

Spirit
22-05-2008, 14:25
@ Fulgrim's-Chosen

I think we all know that when the FAQ hits IoN will be from the necromantic lore :) - Each and every spell is from some lore - the question is the RAW rule - it has been corrected in previous FAQ - even aginst the common sens - My bet is that when the FAQ is out lods of VC players will feel very very raped :D

It wont be from the necromantic lore, there is no such thing, there are necromancy SPELLS, two of which are definitely in the lore of the vampires, one of which may be.

A necromancy spell can be cast over and over again by the same wizard, it is a special rule for the spells, not a lore.

damiengore
22-05-2008, 17:10
You are so so wrong. Are you aware you can restore knights, grave guard, varghulfs and black coaches all with a 4+ spell? (3+ on most summoning lords)

I am a vampire player and this spell is used every turn, why spend 240 points on 10 knights when i can spend 144 on 6 of them and just regain my loses?

Not that I want to get into a lengthy debate about it (I play VC as well) but I disagree. VC's win by bunging you up with garbage troops and winning combats with vampires (or their equivilant), the vampires (that units that kill stuff) are generally small and easy to destroy if focused on in exclusion to all else. The key is to kill little bits at a time, each turn, one or two units, if you nibble here and there you lose.

6 knights (BK's I'm assuming you're talking about here) are relatively easy to kill for most armies with decent shooting/magic and will crumble hard if charged by any unit worth it's salt. Sure you'll say the skeletal steeds will mean you'll be hiding behind some terrain or whatever. Point is small unit+focus= unit gone.

Also a lot of the hard units (killy vampire ones) will spend most of the game on the side lines (ie the flanks) with maybe the vamp lord babysitting the garbage, if your opponent sets up with this in mind he can crush the hard hitter on the flanks.

Finally everything you listed with the exception of the GG are units that can only get a single wound back with each IoN. GG are essentially another garbage unit (albiet heavy garbage) and if you're opponent is only inflicting one or two wounds on your vamps (ie hard hitters) he's doing it all wrong.

I agree IoN is cool and definetly give VC the flavour and as a VC player you should use it freely but is it broken, no. Are Summoning, IoN spamming VC's unbeatable Uber killers from outerspace? No.

Malorian
22-05-2008, 17:42
Gut magic will be fine, even if it is effective. The spells are so easy to cast that the increase only means that you use two dice (which I do now anyway) instead of 1. Which in turn just makes them harder to dispel.

damiengore
22-05-2008, 17:53
I just wanted to run some hypothetical math hammer:

Okay so say you have a pretty magic heavy IoN spamming VC list, say 20 PD, the lord has a staff and all the 4 thralls have +2 PD.

Against a relatively average army that has say 4 to 6 DD and 2 scrolls

If you spent the entire magic phase just spamming IoN you could do it about 12 times ( Lord x 8 PD x .6666 success= 5.3 + 12 PD x .5 success = 6). .5 success holds up for 12 single die casts or 4 double dice casts at 100% and 4 singles.

Of course in reality these would be spread out based on the caster location and range etc... . Now your opponent could dispel about 2 or 3 of these, we'll say 2 just to make it a nice 10 successfull IoN's. So in one average magic phase you could summon about 30 garbage troops worth about 240 points or 50 zombies which are worthless (lol, seriously I love zombies and actually buy hordes from my core!) Sure, sure if it's turn 4, maybe you could summon 30 GG for all I care, 360 points! it's mathhammer lets be gracious!

YAh! You're winning right? You're now 240 points up on your opponent right? You've got more bodies right?

I don't think so. What's the investment for this magical power!?!? Just in terms of raw upgrades it's 400 points, the vampires are an additional 605. Half your army alotment for 5 characters that do'nt even have a stitch of armour or talismans or whatever! Yeeks!

That's insane surely but I've seen a couple of lists that are even more focused on PD, it's just an absurdly heavy investment into summoning garbage IMO. Then on top of that you have to give these vamps some gear so they won't die and will be able to kill stuff.

IMO it's better to come up with a more balanced army that has some garbage to start and a lot more points invested in sizable units that can win you combats, even if it means you can't spam IoN like crazy because ultimately it's the garbage+the hard units that win you games, putting more free garbage on the table is a distraction.

damiengore
22-05-2008, 17:55
Okay, 1 more thing!

I also think that undead infantry is very overpriced for it's combat power. The only thing that makes them worth the points is fear+ItP and IoN.

I also think the answer to the thread that I feel I am now highjacking is : Ion is not in the lore of Vamps, it's clearly not one of the spells. It's a necromantic spell yes but not in the lore.

Dark_Mage99
22-05-2008, 19:45
The same question is granted for Tk invocation and OK Gut magic. Not once is the word lore actually used, as far as I know to describe these.
How can you be so sure that it is the case that everything is a lore?

Not saying you are wrong, this is one of those that go either way, depending on what GW says in the faq.

I know this is not really being a rule question - but OK and TK would be seriously crippled if the banner worked against them.


There is no definite ruling of what a "Lore" is. It appears to just be a grouping of spells, and like many things in the language, it has numerous names. Just because the banner only uses the word Lore, doesn't mean it doesn't affect those spell lists that don't call themselves Lores. Writers use different words for things, because they connote different things. "Lore" suggests order, and Orcs or Skaven aren't as ordered as Empire - so their magic might not necessarily be named the "Lore of the Orcs". It doesn't mean it's not a Lore, though.

As far as I'm aware, Tomb Kings won't be effected by the banner in any case: they don't roll to cast, they just roll for power levels. So -2 to cast can't hurt them at all.


The reason that the rumoured Alessio Email is supposed to be saying it IS in the Lore is that in the main page on The Lore of Vampires in the book, it has a sentence like:

"In addition to Invocation of Nehek, a Vampire knows additional spells from the Lore of Vampires, up to his casting level" - something like that - I don't have the actual book in front of me, but my recollection is something like that.




There's nothing in the book that links Invocation to the Lore of the Vampires. The word additional isn't in there... it is a completely independent spell to represent the fact that all vampires can inherently manipulate the undead. The Lore of the Vampires is the grouping of six spells that you can roll for.

GranFarfar
23-05-2008, 11:49
There is no definite ruling of what a "Lore" is. It appears to just be a grouping of spells, and like many things in the language, it has numerous names. Just because the banner only uses the word Lore, doesn't mean it doesn't affect those spell lists that don't call themselves Lores. Writers use different words for things, because they connote different things. "Lore" suggests order, and Orcs or Skaven aren't as ordered as Empire - so their magic might not necessarily be named the "Lore of the Orcs". It doesn't mean it's not a Lore, though.

As far as I'm aware, Tomb Kings won't be effected by the banner in any case: they don't roll to cast, they just roll for power levels. So -2 to cast can't hurt them at all.


I am well aware of that even when the word lore is not in use, it might still be considered as one. But that dosn't make it an obvious ruling. Both TK magic and Gut magic works differently from other lores. Gw might, or might not have considered this difference important.

And yes, Tk will still get their spells through. But the opponent will have a much easier time dispeling, and thus TK will indeed be hurt.

Akuma
23-05-2008, 12:02
Maybe its not on the same page as the 0 spell because it simply to long in it's description ?

Dark_Mage99
23-05-2008, 12:08
I am well aware of that even when the word lore is not in use, it might still be considered as one. But that dosn't make it an obvious ruling. Both TK magic and Gut magic works differently from other lores. Gw might, or might not have considered this difference important.

And yes, Tk will still get their spells through. But the opponent will have a much easier time dispeling, and thus TK will indeed be hurt.

Apologies if I came across rude in that last post, I didn't intend to.

Gut Magic is no different to other Lores in terms of casting, though: you still roll the dice and see if it's cast.

TK magic, in my opinion, is unaffected. They don't roll to cast at all, so can't have their casting result reduced in the normal manner.

Soul of Iron
23-05-2008, 12:12
TK throw bound spells around so they should be unaffected.

As far as IoN, it does not appear to be part of the LoV but you can never know what direction GW will go with their FAQs. We will just have to wait and see.

Zoolander
25-05-2008, 03:04
Any vampire army that relies on summoning garbage troops with IoN is losing the game because their not casting spells that actually do something. Trust me the summoning thing is a gag with no teeth. The only reason a summoning army wins is because the opponent is wasting their time killing garbage troops that won't die. Do yourself a favour and kill the vampires.

Actually, I win all my games using this exact tactic. 10 is a row to be exact. My vampires are safely hiding in units with regen banners, ward saves, and the like. I can rez more units than you can kill every turn. But while you are busy trying to kill my vamps, my knights, bats, coaches, wraiths, scouting vamp, etc. are eating the rest of your army alive. But yes, you are correct that a VC player's achiles heel is his vampires. Kill the count and the rest of the army will crumble. But killing even a caster Count isn't that easy.

I make a more balanced list - only 10PD, with 2 killy vamps as well. The tactic works. I fear the new daemons, especially if lead by a BT, because he could kill my vamp easily. But a few people have tried with lesser lords (HE of star dragon and star lance for example) and they have always failed.

As for the question at hand, if you read the HE book, isn't Drain Magic, which is listed exactly like IoN, part of the HE lore? If it is, then IoN should be also, regardless of the wording.

*Edit - Scratch that. I just read the HE book, and I was right about that spell. Drain Magic is part of the HE lore - any mage that selects another lore does not know Drain Magic. HOWEVER - and this is what changed my mind completely about IoN - the IoN spell does NOT operate the same way. Reading page 39 of the Vampire Lore places IoN as a separate spell. So does the power Forbidden Lore, it specifically states "In addition to IoN, the vampire knows all the spells from either the Lore of Vampires or any one of the Lores of Magic". This specifically makes IoN a separate spell, not part of the LoV. I was with the Daemons until I read this. Sorry, I'm under the belief Sundering would not work on this spell for this reason.

Pavic
25-05-2008, 04:01
I think this whole issue has to be cleared up by GW. Though probably all we will get is something like "Lore refers to any group of spells, including Gut magic, spells of the little waaagh, etc." They probably won't mention Drain Magic as being part of High Magic for the HE, IoN being part of LoV for VC, etc, just like they didn't clear up the whole spiking issue with steam tanks.

Lijacote
26-05-2008, 06:21
Gut magic will be fine, even if it is effective. The spells are so easy to cast that the increase only means that you use two dice (which I do now anyway) instead of 1. Which in turn just makes them harder to dispel.

If you're forced to double the amount of dice thrown on a single spell, doesn't it count as hurting? Oh sure, Gut Magic will still work and that's good for everyone. We wouldn't want game-breaking banners... Dirty, dirty elves.

50% less magic and an actual chance of miscast does hurt however. Doesn't make it harder to dispell...

Dark_Mage99
26-05-2008, 10:28
It's their protection against what would otherwise be a dominating magic phase. Just kill the BSB if you're that worried about it...

Akuma
26-05-2008, 10:57
"just like they didn't clear up the whole spiking issue with steam tanks."

Jesus please dont start ...

wizuriel
02-06-2008, 02:32
even if it's not part of the lore of vampires couldn't you just use the banner against the 1 spell? It has to be part of some lore

Condottiere
02-06-2008, 05:30
even if it's not part of the lore of vampires couldn't you just use the banner against the 1 spell? It has to be part of some lore

You should be able to, but it seems somehow wasteful.:(

Red_Duke
03-06-2008, 12:44
Diverting slightly from this... Given the whole debate over magical 'lores' - Can a vampire with Forbidden Lore use magic from say, the magic of the horned rat, or gut magic, or even say the Lore of Tzeentch?

I'm assuming that you could'nt use TK magic by default, as it's unique as far as casting value goes etc, but being able to use some of the other 'specialist' lores would be pretty good - especially Ogre!

eleveninches
03-06-2008, 13:39
Sundering does not work on IoN or Drain Magic

Loopstah
03-06-2008, 14:03
Diverting slightly from this... Given the whole debate over magical 'lores' - Can a vampire with Forbidden Lore use magic from say, the magic of the horned rat, or gut magic, or even say the Lore of Tzeentch?

"...any of the Lores of Magic in the Warhammer Rulebook..."

So no.

logan054
03-06-2008, 17:01
It certainly does work on drain magic, personally i think it works on IoN as well however cant really prove it either way.

Red_Duke
03-06-2008, 19:08
Well, its not listed under the Lore of Vampires, and as far as Necromancy Spells go - thats more of a definition for spells that can be cast repeatedly. (so theres definitely no 'Lore of Necromancy' to speak of. The interesting bit is that it states that "all vampire characters can instinctively manipulate the Undead, and so know the invocation of nehek spell. Other spells are generated from the Lore of Vampires as detailed on page 39"

So going as RAW it would suggest that it is'nt part of the Lore of Vampires. The Lore of Vampires is its own section, with the standard 6 spells in it. Given it wouldnt have been really that hard to put the invocation spell under the 'Lore of Vampires' heading in position '0' it would suggest that its NOT part of the lore - as otherwise it would be listed as such, rather than a somewhat strange spell shunted out on its own.

thats my personal opinion only of course however ;)

Somehow i suspect that this is one argument that will only be settled once an FAQ comes out to nail it down for good.

Btw, just read the Vamp book on the other lores thing. So noted! On a small gripe at the Daemons book changing the subject somewhat - why on earth couldnt they have laid out the Daemon abilities as neatly as the Vamp ones rather than slapping them randomly over a number of pages? :wtf: tres bizarre...

wizuriel
03-06-2008, 20:48
lores don't have to be just 6 spells. The old Tzeentch lore in hordes of chaos had 7.

Malorian
03-06-2008, 20:55
But those 7 are all part of the same lore. The top of the page said lore of Tzeentch and all the spells were listed beneath. The vampire lore has all it's spells listed under it, and on the previous page it talks about IoN. Totally different.

At some point you have to draw the line on what's part of the lore and to me it's that line on the page. On one page it talks about IoN and on the next page it has the vampire lore.

Dark_Mage99
03-06-2008, 21:51
It certainly does work on drain magic, personally i think it works on IoN as well however cant really prove it either way.

It doesn't work on Drain Magic, nor does it work on Invocation - they are not part of any Lore.

logan054
03-06-2008, 22:12
Im not sure how you came to the conclusion that drain magic isnt part of the high lore, the lore isnt actually clearly defined in the rule book, seeing how your only acess to it is through choosing high magic i cant see how it can be considered anyting other than high magic.

IoN is just wierd, i mean the way its worded is that is a free necromatic spell that all vampires know, then it goes on how some vampire can expand this knowledge with other spells. To me, i think it certainly sounds like its part of the vampire as the addition spells are part of the vampire.

RAW suggests nothing, sorry, but raw, all it says is that lores in army rule book are represented by 6 spells and how lores from other races may be different. I see nothing that says all lores are work exactly the same at all, using the word usually alot dosnt help much either.

Loopstah
03-06-2008, 22:16
Im not sure how you came to the conclusion that drain magic isnt part of the high lore, the lore isnt actually clearly defined in the rule book, seeing how your only acess to it is through choosing high magic i cant see how it can be considered anyting other than high magic.


I imagine he's referring to the Slann spell which isn't part of any lore.

Your point also provides one of the possible proofs for IoN not being in the Lore of Vampires. If you take Forbidden Lore then you can pick any lore in the rulebook and you still get IoN. If you aren't required to have access to the Lore of Vampires to use IoN how can it be part of that lore?

logan054
03-06-2008, 22:19
I love it when people only read what they want to read ;) please read the whole post before quoting things out of context ;) I would also point out that lizardmen drain magic is also bought as part of a upgrade so makes it very different to IoN

Loopstah
03-06-2008, 22:32
I would also point out that lizardmen drain magic is also bought as part of a upgrade so makes it very different to IoN

On the other hand it's a spell that all Slann of the 3rd Generation and above know, but it isn't part of a lore. The same as IoN is a spell that all vampires know, but it isn't part of a lore.

Would it be different if they'd included separate entries for all 4 generations of Slann and then put in "All Slann of the 2nd and 3rd Generation can easily manipulate the winds of magic and know the Drain Magic Spell. Other spells are generated from any lore in the rulebook see pg xx"?

logan054
04-06-2008, 05:27
yes and being a 3rd gen slann is a upgrade, you have to pay points to be a 3rd gen slann ;) you dont have to pay points to become a vampire with IoN

WLBjork
04-06-2008, 07:06
It still comes back to the Forbidden Lore ability though.

A Vampire taking spells from the Lore of Fire for example will still know IoN.

Does that make IoN part of the Lore of Fire?

logan054
04-06-2008, 10:14
Not really, forbidden lore dosnt automatically equal not part of the vampire lore, forbidden means you can use spells from another lore, thats it. of course if you read the invocation it explains why he sill still knows IoN, funny thing is its written in a similar manner as the magic lore definition (and this is taken only 6 spells..).

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 11:09
Not really, forbidden lore dosnt automatically equal not part of the vampire lore, forbidden means you can use spells from another lore, thats it. of course if you read the invocation it explains why he sill still knows IoN, funny thing is its written in a similar manner as the magic lore definition (and this is taken only 6 spells..).

"In addition to IoN a vampire knows all the spells from either the Lore of Vampires...."

If IoN was part of the Lore of Vampires it would be included in the "all".

logan054
04-06-2008, 12:59
Or its written that way so you dont lose IoN ;) of course i dont pretend here that something is written as black and white as the rest of you. Beside i tend to think what is written within the IoN rules has more bearing on it than a item several pages later in the book. Thats kinda like me quiting rules from the magic item section of rule book (all of them mind you) and saying that have direct bearing on lores of magic in the rule book.

These are two very separate things just as close combat and shooting are very separate things.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-06-2008, 13:10
Sundering does not work on IoN or Drain Magic


It will when the FAQ is released. Allessio have said that the FAQ will rule that both Drain Magic and IoN is part of High Magic/Vampire magic.

Of course, when it's released I haven't really don't know, so it could potentially be quite a while until that surfaces in print.

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 13:23
Evidence that suggests IoN is a spell in the Lore of Vampires:

1. Vampires can cast it.


Evidence that suggests IoN is not a spell in the Lore of Vampires:

1. It isn't listed as a spell in the LoV.

2. It's on a separate page, in it's own box.

3. "In addition to IoN, vampires know one spell from the LoV per level" not "one other spell from the LoV per level"

4. If a vampire takes a lore that isn't LoV he still gets IoN.

5. Forbidden Lore specifies a vampire knows IoN in addition to all the spells in the LoV.

6. All the special character entries except Konrad under "magic". Unlike Forbidden Lore which uses the term "In addition" they don't.



It will when the FAQ is released. Allessio have said that the FAQ will rule that both Drain Magic and IoN is part of High Magic/Vampire magic.

Of course, when it's released I haven't really don't know, so it could potentially be quite a while until that surfaces in print.

So what about the Slann Drain Magic spell? Since I'd say that has more in common with IoN than the HE version.

EvC
04-06-2008, 13:42
Slann Drain Magic will be ignored by the FAQ (Or perhaps even wryly included as being part of High Magic). It doesn't fit anywhere really but the FAQ will still more than likely decree IoN as part of the Vampire Lore.

logan054
04-06-2008, 13:59
Evidence that suggests IoN is a spell in the Lore of Vampires:

1. Vampires can cast it.

Seeing as you have just ignored everything i said by just justing posting one point here i feel its only fair to do the same ;)

1) vampire can caste it
2) its a necromatic spells
3) all necromatic spellls are part of the lore of the vampire
4) if you actually read the IoN is actually gord into detail on how Vampires instinctively know this spell and can improve upon by learning others spells which are part of the lore of vampire
5) at no point has i read that lores are only made up of 6 spells in a chart, actually usually is written so many times it indicates this clearly isnt the case

against

1) you dont roll for it
2) a vampire power mentions you get the spell which has nothing to actually do with the rules of IoN.

Ant i nice, i gave you two ;)

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 14:09
Seeing as you have just ignored everything i said by just justing posting one point here i feel its only fair to do the same ;)

1) vampire can caste it
2) its a necromatic spells
3) all necromatic spellls are part of the lore of the vampire
4) if you actually read the IoN is actually gord into detail on how Vampires instinctively know this spell and can improve upon by learning others spells which are part of the lore of vampire
5) at no point has i read that lores are only made up of 6 spells in a chart, actually usually is written so many times it indicates this clearly isnt the case


2) "Necromancy Spell" is a spell type like magic missile, remains in play etc and has nothing to do with what lore the spell belongs to.

3) Only if IoN is part of the lore. You can't argue that because it's part of the lore it must be part of the lore.

4) If anything that gives the impression that IoN should have been a special ability rather than a spell. Of course if it wasn't a spell people would go crazy they can't dispel it like they do with the anvil.

5) Usually if there's an entire page titled "Lore of the Vampires" and descriptions of all the spells in said Lore then I'd expect all spells in that lore to be on that page.


Personally I can see why they would include it in the Lore of Vampires when they FAQ it, it's probably fair to do so, but I'm still convinced it isn't actually part of the lore. ;)

One-S
04-06-2008, 14:25
So what about the Slann Drain Magic spell? Since I'd say that has more in common with IoN than the HE version.

The standard of sundering says that the player must choose a "lore of magic".
The slanns drain magic spell is an "ability" that he gets when he's a third (second) gen slann, it isn't part of any "lore of magic", since the slann chooses his lores from the BRB (and non of those have the drain magic spell).
The standard of sundering doesn't work on a slanns drain magic spell.
Not even if the opponent wants it to work for the slanns drain magic alone.
It simply isn't part of a lore and you must name a lore.

Condottiere
04-06-2008, 14:42
The standard of sundering says that the player must choose a "lore of magic".
The slanns drain magic spell is an "ability" that he gets when he's a third (second) gen slann, it isn't part of any "lore of magic", since the slann chooses his lores from the BRB (and non of those have the drain magic spell).
The standard of sundering doesn't work on a slanns drain magic spell.
Not even if the opponent wants it to work for the slanns drain magic alone.
It simply isn't part of a lore and you must name a lore.

If I understand correctly how the SoS works, the Daemon player is wasting points trying to neutralize the magic phase of a slann, who can cast from potentially 4 different lores.

Malorian
04-06-2008, 14:45
If I understand correctly how the SoS works, the Daemon player is wasting points trying to neutralize the magic phase of a slann, who can cast from potentially 4 different lores.

Absolutely. Although the deamon player will obviously pick the lore of light so try and get more miscasts (auto-failures for slann).

One-S
04-06-2008, 15:30
Absolutely. Although the deamon player will obviously pick the lore of light so try and get more miscasts (auto-failures for slann).

The standard always provides miscasts on bouble 1, 2 or 3 against the lore of light, even if the player that controls the banner choses another lore.
IMO it's not obvious that the player will choose the lore of light, he already benefits from a miscast effect on that lore.

Malorian
04-06-2008, 15:35
Well most slanns are machine-gun slanns, meaning they'll have lvl 1 death, lvl 1 fire, lvl 1 light, lvl 1 metal, and probably another fire spell.

The +2 wouldn't really do much to stop the lore of fire when a slann is casting it so you might as well go for stopping the lore of light.

logan054
04-06-2008, 16:29
2) "Necromancy Spell" is a spell type like magic missile, remains in play etc and has nothing to do with what lore the spell belongs to.

Actually its not a spell type as they have very different effects on undead units. one heals, one raises new units, on moves them, a magic missle no matter the lore will always do x amounts of hits at x strength following the shooting rules.


3) Only if IoN is part of the lore. You can't argue that because it's part of the lore it must be part of the lore.

Find me a raw definition of a lore then


4) If anything that gives the impression that IoN should have been a special ability rather than a spell. Of course if it wasn't a spell people would go crazy they can't dispel it like they do with the anvil.

No actually it dosnt give that impression at all, if it was a vampire abilty it wouldnt be listed as a spell and necromancers wouldnt be able to buy it, also it is refered in the lore vampires.



5) Usually if there's an entire page titled "Lore of the Vampires" and descriptions of all the spells in said Lore then I'd expect all spells in that lore to be on that page.

Usually? i didnt know it was a common thing in warhammer to have pages about vampire magic pop up, i thought that was a new thing in the new army book.


Personally I can see why they would include it in the Lore of Vampires when they FAQ it, it's probably fair to do so, but I'm still convinced it isn't actually part of the lore. ;)

Long and the short is you can see the intention of it but will ignore it until GW holds your hand?

Malorian
04-06-2008, 16:46
I don't think it was intended and I don't think it's covered by RAW. This is my opinion though and if the FAQ rules against me I won't say a word more.

In the mean time I'll just work it out with my opponent before the game. (Like I had to do with the IoN in combat thing until it was FAQed.)

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 16:56
Actually its not a spell type as they have very different effects on undead units. one heals, one raises new units, on moves them, a magic missle no matter the lore will always do x amounts of hits at x strength following the shooting rules.

A magic missile is subject to the rules used for shooting, a remains in play spell has an effect that lasts until it is dispelled or the caster casts another spell, a necromancy spell may be cast more than once a magic phase and on the same unit multiple times. So yes, it is a spell type.


Find me a raw definition of a lore then

That isn't relevant. You're trying to say "it's a necromancy spell, because all necromancy spells are in the Lore of the Vampires".

There are 3 necromancy spells, 2 are in the lore of vampires the other might be. So that isn't a valid point.



No actually it dosnt give that impression at all, if it was a vampire abilty it wouldnt be listed as a spell and necromancers wouldnt be able to buy it, also it is refered in the lore vampires.

The fluff suggests it would be, as it's an instinctive thing. Obviously it isn't, because they decided to play it as a spell in game. It still suggests it's not something they had to go and learn like other spells. However fluff and rules don't always go hand in hand so I'll concede that point. :D



Usually? i didnt know it was a common thing in warhammer to have pages about vampire magic pop up, i thought that was a new thing in the new army book.

Yes, oddly enough if I look under the Black Coach heading, I find rules for the Black Coach and not Wight Kings. If I look on the pages marked Vampiric Powers, I find the vampiric powers listed and not the Core army choices.

It must be some radical new system GW have brought in of giving matching headings to relevant sections of the book. ;)



Long and the short is you can see the intention of it but will ignore it until GW holds your hand?

No, if my opponent wanted IoN to be affected by the standard I wouldn't mind. I just don't see anything in the army book that convinces me IoN is in the Lore of Vampires.

logan054
04-06-2008, 17:13
A magic missile is subject to the rules used for shooting, a remains in play spell has an effect that lasts until it is dispelled or the caster casts another spell, a necromancy spell may be cast more than once a magic phase and on the same unit multiple times. So yes, it is a spell type.

I'll give you that one



That isn't relevant. You're trying to say "it's a necromancy spell, because all necromancy spells are in the Lore of the Vampires".

There are 3 necromancy spells, 2 are in the lore of vampires the other might be. So that isn't a valid point.

Actually its very relevant, seeing how a lore needs to be defined before you a spell can be defined as not part of one, how can you say it isnt part of a the vampire lore if you cant even define a lore!


The fluff suggests it would be, as it's an instinctive thing. Obviously it isn't, because they decided to play it as a spell in game. It still suggests it's not something they had to go and learn like other spells. However fluff and rules don't always go hand in hand so I'll concede that point. :D

well then definition of a lore must also be fluff then meaning we actually have definition of whatr a magic lore is, your right, i does suggest it isnt something they didnt have to learn, it suggest its actually the basis for the lore of vampire. Of course i am not even suggesting this a RAW , still their is no actual RAW for this ruling anyway.



Yes, oddly enough if I look under the Black Coach heading, I find rules for the Black Coach and not Wight Kings. If I look on the pages marked Vampiric Powers, I find the vampiric powers listed and not the Core army choices.

And that has nothing to do with what i said, i said it wasnt common for the vampire lore to pop up in warhammer other than in a new book :P


No, if my opponent wanted IoN to be affected by the standard I wouldn't mind. I just don't see anything in the army book that convinces me IoN is in the Lore of Vampires.

Well isnt that very nice of you! funny i thought you just wrote you can see why it can be seen as part of the lore of vampire, suddenly changed your mind?

@ Malorian - well atleast we can agree this is all opinion! it would have been nice if they had a few examples in the daemon book of how it effected lored including the lore of the vampires!

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 17:28
Well isnt that very nice of you! funny i thought you just wrote you can see why it can be seen as part of the lore of vampire, suddenly changed your mind?

No, I can see why GW would FAQ it as being affected by the Standard along with the other spells in the Lore of Vampires. That doesn't mean I think it is part of the Lore of Vampires.

My ideal FAQ result would be:

Q: Is Invocation of Nehek affected by the Standard of Sundering if I pick Lore of the Vampires as my chosen Lore.

A: Yes it is. Although not technically part of the Lore of the Vampires we feel that in the respect to the standard it should be treated as such.

That way everyone's happy.:D

Gaftra
04-06-2008, 19:52
No, I can see why GW would FAQ it as being affected by the Standard along with the other spells in the Lore of Vampires. That doesn't mean I think it is part of the Lore of Vampires.

My ideal FAQ result would be:

Q: Is Invocation of Nehek affected by the Standard of Sundering if I pick Lore of the Vampires as my chosen Lore.

A: Yes it is. Although not technically part of the Lore of the Vampires we feel that in the respect to the standard it should be treated as such.

That way everyone's happy.:D

thats the way i see it happening. RAW its totally not in the lore, it is its own separate spell that isnt in any specific lore.

logan054
04-06-2008, 20:28
you cant define raw and raw you cant define a lore, if you use what is written in the rule book to define it you clearly are only using raw when it suits you.

Dark_Mage99
04-06-2008, 22:33
There is a heading: Lore of the Vampires.

Underneath, there is a list of spells. These spells make up the Lore of the Vampires. Invocation of Nehek is not there, so therefore it is not part of the Lore of the Vampires.

That is how I choose to define the situation. They might well FAQ it in the future, and for the sake of fairness or for whatever other reason they might make the Standard work on Invocation as well as the other spells - or they might not - but as it stands it is certainly not part of the Lore as a whole.