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Alessander
22-05-2008, 19:57
Now that the new Daemon Codex is out, Daemonhunters need some rules tweaks, specifically the Grey Knight Rules. The only rules that need addressing are the Rites of Excorcism (that impose a penalty on Instability Checks) and Daemonic Infestation (which allow certain units to recyle via Sustained Assault, but those units no longer exist).

GW rulesboyz suggest that all Daemon codexTroops and Fast Attack choices from the new codex would get the sustained attack rule (bar special characters, of course). However, because the GK's can't give the daemons a penalty to instability (since instability is gone), you'll have to come up with a new rule to balance the infestation out. I suggest that rites of exorcism should be amended by one or more of the following:

* Daemons lose their Fearless rule in close combat when engaged with Grey Knights (and are -1 Ld during tests as per the current rule, so they would all be Ld 9). or...
* When outnumbered in a losing combat, daemons take double wounds for being fearless and losing combat when ountnumbered ("no retreat").
* When counting kills in combat, Grey Knights count as inflicting double the number of wounds caused for calculating combat results.
* In combat, each Grey Knight model counts as two models for "no retreat" wounds against fearless daemons losing a round of combat.
* When Grey Knights are on the table, all daemons have a penalty to their reserves roll. Or, their Deep Strike scatter may be rerolled at the request of the DaemonHunter player, to represent the rites interfering with the daemons' ability to enter real space.
* Daemons assault GKs as though they are in difficult terrain (as per the existing rules).
* Daemons count Grey Knights as being in dangerous terrain when assaulting them, possibly taking wounds (being banished) as they charge (too much?)
* When rolling for "daemonic assault" (choosing which half of the army deploys), an opponent with Grey Knights may choose to give a -1 modifier to the roll.
* All Nemesis Weapons give a +1 penalty to daemon saves in close combat?

What do you think would work, if any? If the rulesboyz database is saying that all troops and FA get recycling against GKs, the counterbalance should be signifigant...

==Me==
22-05-2008, 20:01
I like the 3rd and 4th, messing with reserves and DS-ing is also useful.

How about Nemesis weapons ignoring inv saves against daemons?

Alessander
22-05-2008, 20:10
I thought about that. General "no save at all" seems overly powerful, perhaps base it on the skill level chart they normally have, normal GKs in power armor grant a -1 penalty to daemon saves, Justicars and Terminators a -2 penalty, and Heroes no save at all against daemons?

kishvier
22-05-2008, 20:12
There is no longer an instability rule anymore for daemons of chaos and CSM's, they just DS.

x-esiv-4c
22-05-2008, 20:14
On the flipside however if you are going to beef up DH then Daemons should be beefed too. Give them relentless assault (or whatever it was called). Perhaps Daemons get to re-roll their reserves etc

40kdhs
22-05-2008, 20:14
Now that the new Daemon Codex is out, Daemonhunters need some rules tweaks, specifically the Grey Knight Rules. The only rules that need addressing are the Rites of Excorcism (that impose a penalty on Instability Checks) and Daemonic Infestation (which allow certain units to recyle via Sustained Assault, but those units no longer exist).

GW rulesboyz suggest that all Daemon codexTroops and Fast Attack choices from the new codex would get the sustained attack rule (bar special characters, of course). However, because the GK's can't give the daemons a penalty to instability (since instability is gone), you'll have to come up with a new rule to balance the infestation out. I suggest that rites of exorcism should be amended by one or more of the following:

* Daemons lose their Fearless rule in close combat when engaged with Grey Knights (and are -1 Ld during tests as per the current rule, so they would all be Ld 9). or...
* When outnumbered in a losing combat, daemons take double wounds for being fearless and losing combat when ountnumbered ("no retreat").
* When counting kills in combat, Grey Knights count as inflicting double the number of wounds caused for calculating combat results.
* In combat, each Grey Knight model counts as two models for "no retreat" wounds against fearless daemons losing a round of combat.
* When Grey Knights are on the table, all daemons have a penalty to their reserves roll. Or, their Deep Strike scatter may be rerolled at the request of the DaemonHunter player, to represent the rites interfering with the daemons' ability to enter real space.
* Daemons assault GKs as though they are in difficult terrain (as per the existing rules).
* Daemons count Grey Knights as being in dangerous terrain when assaulting them, possibly taking wounds (being banished) as they charge (too much?)
* When rolling for "daemonic assault" (choosing which half of the army deploys), an opponent with Grey Knights may choose to give a -1 modifier to the roll.
* All Nemesis Weapons give a +1 penalty to daemon saves in close combat?

What do you think would work, if any? If the rulesboyz database is saying that all troops and FA get recycling against GKs, the counterbalance should be signifigant...

all i can say is brilliant.

Alessander
22-05-2008, 20:20
On the flipside however if you are going to beef up DH then Daemons should be beefed too. Give them relentless assault (or whatever it was called). Perhaps Daemons get to re-roll their reserves etc

See original post. They already have a HUGE boost in the form of a buffed Daemonic Infestation (all Troops and FA get it now). I'm trying to balance this with the GKs now.

Kelderaith
22-05-2008, 21:58
Aren't daemons already charging in difficult terrain, halving their WS and Init (or something like that) as well already? If so, might as well not play Daemon vs grey knight... I mean, basically, even under current rule set where "instability test" don't exist, they still have huge bonuses compared to all other armies. Yes Daemon are more "cost effective" in the new codex, but I think this issue was already dealt with since they deploy half and then deepstrike the rest.

I mean, I know grey knight are made to kill daemon, but just like everything in the game, transition from fluff to game needs balance, it has to happen for both players to have some fun.

Chem-Dog
22-05-2008, 22:32
* Daemons lose their Fearless rule in close combat when engaged with Grey Knights (and are -1 Ld during tests as per the current rule, so they would all be Ld 9).

Don't like this, it's messing with a pretty fundamental mechanism of the army. Against non Daemonic armies it'll be a big advantage lost.


* When outnumbered in a losing combat, daemons take double wounds for being fearless and losing combat when ountnumbered ("no retreat").

This could work. Not sure how often you're gonna get 25 point+ GK's outnumbering 14 point Daemons though.


* When counting kills in combat, Grey Knights count as inflicting double the number of wounds caused for calculating combat results.

Bit too powerful methinks, I'd be tempted to give them an Instrument of Chaos equivalent, this will prevent any Daemon units defualting a win in combat and potentially push the GK's into a win instead of a draw.


* In combat, each Grey Knight model counts as two models for "no retreat" wounds against fearless daemons losing a round of combat.

Something I've been an advocate of for Terminators for some time, would be tempting to restrict this ability to Grey Knight Terminators.


* When Grey Knights are on the table, all daemons have a penalty to their reserves roll. Or, their Deep Strike scatter may be rerolled at the request of the DaemonHunter player, to represent the rites interfering with the daemons' ability to enter real space.

Now this is bang on the money a simple alteration of a rule that's essential to Daemon armies. Any Daemonic unit entering play within 12" of a Grey Knight unit must roll an additional D6 scatter, meaning even units locked on to Icons will not land EXACTLY on target.


* Daemons assault GKs as though they are in difficult terrain (as per the existing rules).

As a Slaaneshi player, I can't help feeling this would be largely redundant, but I suppose other slower Daemons might have trouble with this.


* Daemons count Grey Knights as being in dangerous terrain when assaulting them, possibly taking wounds (being banished) as they charge (too much?)

Wouldn't it just be easier to say GK's benefit from "Defensive Grenades" Vs Daemons?
Admittedly it's not quite the same effect but represents the trouble a Daemon might be having actually getting into combat.


* When rolling for "daemonic assault" (choosing which half of the army deploys), an opponent with Grey Knights may choose to give a -1 modifier to the roll.

Like this one, again simple and easily applied.


* All Nemesis Weapons give a +1 penalty to daemon saves in close combat?

No way, A majority of Daemons get a 5+save, you know how awful a 5+ save is (even if it IS an Inv save). I'd suggest a reroll to wound but if you're keeping the S6 Nemesis it really isn't necessary as you'll seldom need more than 4's to wound.

Some good ideas there. :)

killa kan kaus
23-05-2008, 02:26
I do not think demons need a boost or anyone needs a boost while fighting GK. I think a lot of these rules are good but I thought GW sent save modifiers the way of the dodo with the removal of the chain axe and choppa, however I could be wrong.

Lord Inquisitor
23-05-2008, 02:50
I think Grey Knights counting as having Defensive Grenades against Daemons is the simplest and most elegant solution...

Feor
23-05-2008, 03:02
I like the idea of Daemons treating Grey Knights as Unit Strength 2 for combat resolution, so they have to outnumber us 2 to 1 before they get any real benefit from beating us in close combat.

Also, probably the best way to deal with Grey Knights hitting daemons is that Justicars and Terminators ignore Daemonic invul saves, while regular Grey Knights can force them to re-roll their save.

Also, Shrouding should come down to actually equalling night fighting while Dealing with Daemons, rather than the regular roll it takes.

Lord Cook
23-05-2008, 03:21
* When Grey Knights are on the table, all daemons have a penalty to their reserves roll. Or, their Deep Strike scatter may be rerolled at the request of the DaemonHunter player, to represent the rites interfering with the daemons' ability to enter real space.

I think I like this one the best. Screw with daemons transition from the Immaterium into the Materium. I'd make it a straight +1D6 to all scatter, and this should apply even if the unit is landing via an icon or even if it rolls a hit.

==Me==
23-05-2008, 03:21
GKs aren't all that common and they need a buff against the new Daemons, though something big like ignoring fearless or negating/weakening saves may be a bit much.

Defensive grenades seem simple and should work fine. Re-rolling scatter within 12" of GKs also works.

Pink Horror
23-05-2008, 03:32
* In combat, each Grey Knight model counts as two models for "no retreat" wounds against fearless daemons losing a round of combat.


This is the one I was thinking of before I read the list. Make the Grey Knights earn it by winning a round of combat, and then shoo away more deamons.

40kdhs
24-05-2008, 17:00
GKs have furious charge and counter attack ability

Boomstick
24-05-2008, 17:36
Surely just giving the GK prefered enermy would be the most logical solution then you have a nice simple USR that everyone understands and makes sense.

40kdhs
24-05-2008, 17:47
Surely just giving the GK prefered enermy would be the most logical solution then you have a nice simple USR that everyone understands and makes sense.

it makes sense.

scairyfairy
24-05-2008, 21:32
it makes sense.

GK don't need a boost like that in combat against daemons though I don't think. Personally I like the +1D6 scatter roll for when the Daemons come in.

nightmare12369
24-05-2008, 21:53
i would say that things are fine the way they are.

rodmillard
24-05-2008, 22:07
The thing to remember is that it's rites of exorcism that needs the rewrite. so instead of affecting instability, we need to either affect combat resolutioon or the daemon's deep strike ability (or both). Actual combat stats should not come into it - they're already amply covered by the wargear, which is largely unaffected by the daemon codex.

As far as CR goes, I'm right behind GK terminators counting as unit strength 2, and/or all GK units never take panalties for being outnumbered by daemons. Deep striking is more complex. There is mileage in the GK player being able to modify the roll for which daemon cohort comes on first, and for units from the second cohort deep striking, but an easier mechanic would be for the GK player to have the option to force a reroll (any daemon rerolls would then be irrelevant, since you can't reroll a rerolled dice). to keep it from being overpowered you could limit it to reroll 6s, or limit it to one reroll per GK hero per turn.

(edit: typos)

ZiggyTempest
24-05-2008, 22:12
GKs have furious charge and counter attack ability

Your powers of deduction are amazing sherlock.

I suggest a simple leadership nerf for any daemon units withing a certain distance of grey Knights units. About 12 inches should do it?

The_Outsider
25-05-2008, 00:04
Considering daemons are fearless I doubt that will be worth the effort other than "oh noes, my horrors failed target priority".

ZiggyTempest
25-05-2008, 02:08
Considering daemons are fearless I doubt that will be worth the effort other than "oh noes, my horrors failed target priority".

Well obviously they'd lose the fearless ability too.

Feor
25-05-2008, 03:12
One other thing I thought of: Daemons in base contact with Grey Knights lose the Eternal Warrior rule.

Alessander
25-05-2008, 03:58
GKs have furious charge and counter attack ability

No they do not, that's only in Dawn of War. Only USR that GKs have are True Grit.

Perhaps having Rites of Excorcism strip Daemons of some of their "daemon" rules while engaged with GKs would work as a good balance against their signifigant boost to Daemonic Infestation. Losing Eternal Warrior, and making their invulnerable saves into normal saves sounds like a good switch - so only Justicars and Terminators would cleave through their saves.

So, against Grey Knights, Daemons would:


Gain Sustained Assault if they are Troops or FA while GKs are on the table (per the current Daemonic Infestation rule).
Lose Eternal Warrior when engaged with GKs (rework of Rites of Excorcism)).
Lose Invulnerable status to their saves when engaged with GKs (rework of Rites of Excorcism).
Perhaps lose fearless when engaged with GKs? (rework of Rites of Excorcism)


Sound like an even trade? Ranged daemons (read: horrors) would have the greatest advantage, as they generally don't get in assault.

The whole point about GKs is to give them special rules that only work against Daemons. Preferred Enemy: Daemons is a step in the right direction, but it seems like more is needed... GKs are already WS5, so a reroll isn't a huge boost (yes, it is a boost).

Kelderaith
25-05-2008, 04:16
What I need to understand is why you have to make grey knight win 100% of their fight against demon as they are "demon hunters". These kind of rules are sooo ****in good against daemon it's just dumb. I mean, I've seen daemon play once or twice (that's not a lot I know but still) and even vs "normal" armies, they have a tough time, now with people who practically half their combat abilities, have spells and powers against them, and have psycanon and incinerator (which are normally fielded in quantity as grey knights have no other special weapons) which totally RAPE daemon I don't think they need more. Even though grey knight got 2-3 rules that are obsolete vs the new daemon, the new codex is already balanced out as per deployment rule and such.

Btw, I am standing really bemused that everyone just ignored my first post about the same thing.

Lord Inquisitor
25-05-2008, 04:52
The thing is, the rule that allows daemons to respawn is damned powerful! Even with the old rules, most daemonhunter players (including myself) would rather face Chaos without the Grey Knights because the added daemon-killing power didn't offset the massive advantage of respawning daemons.

They need to have some serious daemon-smacking power to offset that rule. But now Instability is gone and daemons are immune to Instant Death...

Grey Knights Nemesis weapons ingnoring daemonic Invulnerable saves in combat is a reasonable idea, albeit a very powerful one. It makes sense! Always thought it odd that daemons get no saves from psycannon but do get saves from Nemesis weapons.

nurglez
25-05-2008, 05:10
IMO, making DH ignore demon saves or something like that is silly, just plain silly.

the old rules had nothing about countering invlunerable saves at all, except with the psycannon/incinerator. so i dont see the point in making new rules like that. modifying the old rules, yes, making up new ones, no.

Yes i thought it bizare that nemisis force weapons dont get rid of demons saves, cosidering GK's fight demons, but GW must have had a reason.

kdh88
25-05-2008, 06:16
IMHO, Daemon Hunters need a complete rework from the ground level up. Daemonic Infestation is supposed to balance out the daemon-specific wargear as well as the special rules, but no one ever actually takes the wargear (in a take-all-comers list it's a waste of points, and tailoring is, in my experience, almost universally frowned upon). What you end up with is an army that is typically terrible against daemons, on top of the overpriced troops and near total lack of anti-armor weaponry. That's not exactly a recipe for a competitive force.

Wolfs_Bane
25-05-2008, 09:46
Hmmmm I can't see nothing of these happened. In the new rulebook, don't exists Sustained Assault as a rule.

So, we must wait to July and hope that the DH Faq were as good as it should be.

keatsmeister
25-05-2008, 11:54
I like the option of messing with Daemons arriving, as that is the crux of the imbalance to start with.

Here are my potential solutions

A - When rolling for which group of daemons may make a Daemonic Assault on turn 1, the presence of Grey Knights alters the roll required to 4 or more for the Chaos player's chosen group to make the daemonic assault.

B- There are two options for this alteration.

1) Any Daemonic units entering play using Sustained Assault must pass an unmodified Ld test. If they pass the test, they may deploy as normal. If the unit fails, they must use the SMALL blast template to deploy using Deep Strike. Any models which cannot fit fully or partially inside the template have been affected by the Rites of Exorcism and cannot be deployed, thus counting as casualties.

Perhaps a little powerful.

2) Any daemonic unit entering play, either as a reserve or using Sustained Assault must pass an unmodified Ld test. If they pass the test, they may deploy as normal. If the unit fails, they automatically scatter when deploying. Place a marker where you intend to deploy. Roll a scatter dice, and the unit is deployed 4D6" in the direction indicated by the scatter dice.

Fear is the mind killer
25-05-2008, 15:21
How about all daemons are treated as standard daemons (the ones that are powered down in the CSM codex) when fighting grey knights in close combat, or at least are treated like this if the Grey Knights pass a psychic test?

The_Outsider
25-05-2008, 16:47
Well obviously they'd lose the fearless ability too.

Which is A) massive overkill and B) impossible to correctly cost.

Feor
25-05-2008, 17:00
You know, with rumors of 5th edition's deep strike system, we could just make it that any daemon deep striking with 2d6" of a Grey Knight unit is considered to have landed in impassable terrain.

HsojVvad
25-05-2008, 18:30
I think these are all good rules, but are just house rules. For anyting legl to come out we will either have to wait for the new DH codex to come out, (very unlikely) or wait till July, August or September once the new rules for 5th edtion comes out and the FAQ for DH comes out.

Let's see what they put out and then we can have this discussion again. Good points though by the way.

40kdhs
25-05-2008, 20:19
It's time to give GKs new rules and abilities to fight every army instead of daemon because It doesn't justify the point cost of GKs or anything if you only use these rules for 1 particular army.

If other armies in Imperium can fight without GKs, why can't DH fight without allying anybody.?

Feor
26-05-2008, 02:15
It's time to give GKs new rules and abilities to fight every army instead of daemon because It doesn't justify the point cost of GKs or anything if you only use these rules for 1 particular army.

If other armies in Imperium can fight without GKs, why can't DH fight without allying anybody.?

... because they're Daemon Hunters.

I suppose you also wonder why Assault Marines can't take heavy weapons, or why Fire Warriors can't take stealth suits.

If you don't want to fight an army specialised for killing daemons, stay away from a Codex titled "Daemonhunters".

40kdhs
27-05-2008, 18:27
... because they're Daemon Hunters.

I suppose you also wonder why Assault Marines can't take heavy weapons, or why Fire Warriors can't take stealth suits.

If you don't want to fight an army specialised for killing daemons, stay away from a Codex titled "Daemonhunters".

The funny part is other armies don't have 'daemon special rules' and they can defeat a daemon army while DH have the rules but have the hard time. Is it ironic.?

Are you saying that i can't use a GK army to fight none daemon army.? As far as i'm concerned, nobody spends their money to purchase models and books to simply use his army for 1 particluar army.

People seem to forget that GKs always fight other armies for various reasons. They will terminate any Imperium force if it participates in fighting daemon.

Sustain Attack should be removed from DH codex because it makes GKs weaker.

1- The point cost of a GKPA unit is twice the cost of a daemon unit.
2-To assume that GK units will be instact after 4 turns is ridiculous.

In order for a DH player to earn his point back or capture an objective, he has to kill a daemon unit twice and it's impossible to do because he doesn't have enough GKs on the table and his GK unit I is slower than daemon units.

Hopefully, GK I will have furious charge or counter attack.

Feor
27-05-2008, 22:44
Oh for the love of... I just spent three pages arguing this on Bolter andChainsword like a month ago.

Daemonhunters have trouble against Daemons because the Daemonhunters are 2 editions behind the Daemons in terms of rules. Sustained assault was added in because against a Daemon heavy Chaos force, when the codex was released, the Grey Knights were powerful enough to be considered broken. So rather than jack up the Grey Knights points cost even more, make them unviable against other armies, GW instead built in an automatic advantage for daemons when fighting Grey Knights. Should this come out? Maybe, depends on what they do to the rest of the army.

Do I think Grey Knights should be able to only fight Daemons? No. But I think they should be created specifically to fight Daemons. If that makes them more powerful against some other armies and weaker against others, so be it, they're not balanced against that army, they're balanced against daemons.

As to Furious Charge or Counter Attack, I hope not. Or if they do only when charging/charged by daemonic forces. The point isn't to make them more powerful, the point is to make them more powerful vs. daemons

Znail
28-05-2008, 00:53
Rather nutty suggestions. Its far better to just leave things as they are, ie no relentless assault nor Rites of Exorcism penalty to instability. This will make DH extra good against Daemons as wished for and they can give Daemons a new bonus against them when DH gets a new codex.

40kdhs
28-05-2008, 01:23
Daemonhunters have trouble against Daemons because the Daemonhunters are 2 editions behind the Daemons in terms of rules.


Did you use a DH in the 4th edition before a new daemon codex came out.? The old S5 PW 'bloodletter' will eat any GK unit for breakfast.





Sustained assault was added in because against a Daemon heavy Chaos force, when the codex was released, the Grey Knights were powerful enough to be considered broken.


GKs were powerful in the 3rd and 4th edition.? Were you drinking when you wrote it.?

It's laughable.

ReveredChaplainDrake
28-05-2008, 01:42
I'm surprised nobody mentioned anything about The Aegis. Does anybody else find it silly that, against an army of Marines geared specifically to fight Daemons, the only psychic powers that Grey Knights have no protection against... are from Daemons? :wtf:

Though I did have an interesting discussion with a future Daemon player about the uselessness of Gift of Chaos / Boon of Mutation on a Grey Knight. As Spawns must charge, have I3, just 3 wounds, and not a helmet of armor to speak of, instead relying on t5 to live, a GK turned Spawn is basically handing the closest GK squad a free massacre move. Thus, we reasoned that any GK turned into a Spawn by either of these powers would be simply removed as a casualty, not turned into a Spawn. The plunking down of a free Spawn is optional, anyway.

Some other clarifications to consider:

-Sacred Incense: This item says that it only applies to "Chaos" models. However, there are not just one Chaos army anymore, but two: Daemons and Marines. Therefore, does Sacred Incense only apply to Chaos Marines? Or both? (The answer is pretty obviously both, but I just hate seeing little rules naggled about like this...)

-Culexus Assassins: Particularly regarding Tzeentch, as everything in the codex under Tzeentch used to be a psyker, the only use for a Culexus against Daemons is to zap a couple Bloodletters or to make Fateweaver vanish quicker. (The latter though is incredibly funny. *in a posh accent* "Oh dear, I do believe I've been shot by this little chap with no soul... Bye now.")

-Grimoire of True Names: A comment echoed out earlier about Daemonhunters players tailoring their lists for anti-daemon work, the Grimoire is the least taken item in the Daemonhunter's armoury (except possibly Annointed Weapons or Digi-Lasers). Possibly turning it into a special effect of some of the bigger heroes would IMO serve much better. Or drop the cost to virtually nothing.

Feor
28-05-2008, 04:31
-Grimoire of True Names: A comment echoed out earlier about Daemonhunters players tailoring their lists for anti-daemon work, the Grimoire is the least taken item in the Daemonhunter's armoury (except possibly Annointed Weapons or Digi-Lasers). Possibly turning it into a special effect of some of the bigger heroes would IMO serve much better. Or drop the cost to virtually nothing.

Forget that, my only regret about the Grimoire is that it's one per army, or I'd be adding them to every Justicar out there. Before tehy were kinda useless, now, Tooling my army up for anti-daemon work, it's going to mean I can actually kill a Greater Daemon in close combat.


-Culexus Assassins: Particularly regarding Tzeentch, as everything in the codex under Tzeentch used to be a psyker, the only use for a Culexus against Daemons is to zap a couple Bloodletters or to make Fateweaver vanish quicker. (The latter though is incredibly funny. *in a posh accent* "Oh dear, I do believe I've been shot by this little chap with no soul... Bye now.")

The assasin that's really going to rock at anti-daemon work (not that she doesn't already) is the Callidus. Phase Sword = saveless daemons.