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View Full Version : Slaanesh Daemons can now Auto-Destroy Entire Units !!!



Fulgrim's-Chosen
23-05-2008, 10:12
Okay, granted it's not "easy" to pull off, but here is how it is done.

Let's assume the enemy has deployed a powerful unit of 25 Dwarfen Ironbreakers, dreaded by all for their hard hitting and extreme resilience (2+ Armor Saves when attacked from the front !). They have full command and the Rune of Battle for a further +1 to their Combat Resolution. These Dwarfs are not to be messed with !

They come in a bit less than 400, to keep it non-specific.


Anyways...here's what Slaanesh can do on their turn.


1.) Keeper of Secrets advances to bring the unit of Dwarfs into spell range.

2.) The Masque of Slaanesh hits the Dwarfs with -D3 Leadership dance. It is not a spell and cannot be dispelled or disrupted. Let's assume she rolls the maximum and reduces the Ironbreakers Leadership-9 by 3, to Leadership-6.

3.) A Herald of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery and Lore of Death casts Doom and Darkness on the Ironbreakers, successfully. They now have a further -3 Leadership Penalty on them. This reduces their active/current Leadership to a mere Leadership-3 !

4.) The Coup-De-Grace: A Herald of Slaanesh (the third Hero-choice in this combo) in a Chariot or on a Steed in a unit of Seekers (player's choice) has the Great Icon of Despair, a BSB-only special Icon in the new Daemon book that says, "All Enemy Units within 12 inches of this banner suffer a -2 Penalty to their Leadership", and approaches right behind the Keeper (they each can Move-10, if the Herald is in the more-protective Chariot, or 20 if the Herald wants to go all out and keep up with the Marching Movement-10 Keeper, should he feel the need to rush that fast at the enemy).

The Dwarfen Ironbreakers unit now takes a FURTHER -2 Penalty to its Leadership and is now reduced to....drumroll.... Leadership 1 ! :eek:


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5.) The Deathblow: The Keeper of Secrets now casts Slicing Shards of Slaansh with 3-4 dice and (for our example purposes) gets Irresistible Force or for some reason the Dwarfs cannot Dispel it (maybe it's late in the game and they have used up their Scrolls already, or they try to Dispel with Dice, and simply roll poorly). He targets the Dwarfen Ironbreakers unit, of course.



6.) They Die and their controller picks up his entire 400-ish (appx) point cost unit and places it off the table, in the "dead" pile. You smile like only a demented Slaaneshi can :D


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Explanation: Since the unit has Leadership-1....and the big red book tells us to take Leadership tests on 2d6, and if we get equal to or less than our Leadership, we pass the test....the unit CANNOT succeed at the Leadership Test which Slicing Shards tells them to take in order to get the effect of a further D6 STR-5 hits from slamming into the unit.


Roll 2 dice...did you get a "1" or "less" ? :p Nope...didn't think so. Try again. Nope...still no "1" or less ? Jeez....another roll...nope. A "1 and a 2", that's a 3...nope...another roll "6, 3" - nope, failed again....another roll, etc. etc.

For those thinking "Ah, wait, Insane Courage can save me ! Just roll Snake Eyes and I'm fine !" - I will point out that Insane Courage ONLY applies to Break Tests, not Leadership Tests taken for other reasons (like wickedly powerful Slaaneshi Daemonic Magic ones !).

See Break Tests, Insane Courage, and the Leadership stat discussion in the Big Red Rulebook, for those that doubt this.


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Basically, since the unit can NEVER pass that low a Leadership Test, you can effectively deal "infinite" numbers of hits on it. If you want to pick a number, say 50-D6 STR-5 hits. Your opponent will not make you roll out that insane volley, and it's clear they cannot save it with their armor since, on average, they would be rolling SOME 1's and each 1 (or whatever depending on what your unit's armor save was), would result in another dead model for the enemy !

--------------------------

Granted, this is a pretty complicated "combo" to pull off....and Ironbreakers massive Leadership-9 makes it very hard (you can just barely get it to work if the Masque rolls a "-3" max for her ability - if she only does -1 or -2, it's not enough as the Ironbreakers would still have Leadership-2 and could pass the test on a roll of double-ones).

However, this works great and is far easier to get off on lesser leadership enemy formations. Something like Leadership 6 can get hacked -3 by Masque and -2 by the Banner of Despair and ....boom...you got them down to Leadership-1. Now hit them with Slicing Shards and voila...they're gone !



Leadership 7 or above requires you to field a supporting Herald of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery (Death) to get Doom and Darkness off on the enemy unit. This spell only works on units that are NOT immune to psych, meaning you can't use it on Undead or other Daemons, etc, but it's still nice to have on most foes as the Lore itself is fairly good, as the rulebook lores go.



* note that, with Undead, you don't usually NEED to reduce their Leaderships by all that much as they are so pathetically low to begin with. If the unit doesn't have a Vampire in it, and aren't in range of the General, a simple Masque Activation (-2 or -3) is enough to turn them low enough that Slicing Shards can really tear them up, even if it doesn't destroy them completely. *

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(Total things that need to go right for this to ever work)

A- You have to have a Keeper that has Level-4 (improves odds) and happened to have rolled the Slicing Shards spell (pure chance that you will get it or not, each game)

B- You have to take the BSB and the Icon of Despair and have them close enough the enemy unit that they are affecting them with the -2 Leadership Penalty.

C- You have to take the Masque, prevent her from getting shot up, magicked, etc. - and move her within 12-inches of the enemy unit to use her ability. You also need her to roll luckily enough on her -D3 Leadership Penalty to actually pull the enemy down enough so the auto-kill from Slicing Shards can affect them.

D- You need to take a supporting Herald of Tzeentch (for most enemy armies or targets with greater than Leadership 7), give him Master of Sorcery, and pick the Lore of Death. You then have to get that Herald within 24 inches of the enemy unit and successfully cast a Doom and Darkness spell (the enemy cannot Dispel it).

E- Lastly, the Keeper must successfully cast the Slicing Shards of Slaanesh spell, and not have it be dispelled or stopped in any way by the enemy.

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So it's hardly a "freebie" or "easy to pull off" - but it CAN happen, so I thought I'd share it with everyone.

Anyways, feel free to discuss at your leisure. I find it pretty scary/crazy that, on top of all the other great stuff GW has given the Daemons of Chaos, they enable things like this to be possible TOO ! But I'm not complaining ;) !

Akuma
23-05-2008, 10:24
Fallow this link (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144008)

And you will find this combo posted quite time earlier ... We dont use special chars so i cant use masqe do get extra -d3 but I play this army for quite a while and phantasmagoria + slicing is common sight - also things like 5+ stupidyty is more then great if you have -2ld banner ...

All in all I think Slannesh GD has the most to offer in term of Balanced tournament play - it has lods of possible ways to deal with the enemy whereas tzeensh is only viable as mono magic total MM spam - and khorne must fight for supremacy in CC - slanesh can do both and its most flexible :)

+ Pavane with phantasmagoria and banner on the he lord on dragon :D Pricless ;) ( he failed two times ... and it wiped starr dragon from his sorry but - then got sirenated into keeper - my opponent almost struck me with his model :D )

Atrahasis
23-05-2008, 10:28
It's already come up in the FAQ discussion elsewhere :)

I would have used, oh goblins or something to make the example a little less convoluted though ;)

Completely off topic, can you stop with the "------------------"?
It makes it look like you have 12 signatures in that post, creates a mental break (similar to the page 30 textured-fluff-box-that-contains-rules) and is just generally annoying.

Armilthuan
23-05-2008, 10:36
I don't have the exact wording with me, but there is no such thing as automatically losing a Ld test. Insane Courage will always work.

Why else would I still stand after rolling Insane Courage when I have to deduct 16 from my Ld from a horribly lost CC?

Now, on how to make this a viable strategy:

You don't need to bring down the unit's Ld all the way to 1. Ld 4-5 is enough. For this you only need the Masque and the banner. Two things which can't be dispelled. The Herald of Tzeentch can be ditched.

What you described is a one trick pony, because, as you already stated, there is a chance you don't get it or it gets dispelled/scrolled.

But you can do oh so many other mean things with this.

If you know your opponent is not immune to terror, you can use these two tricks on the unit containing the enemies general.

With a little luck, you should see his face when he needs to pass a Terror test on Ld5 because your KoS is within 6 inch.

Or your opponent has allowed you to make his unit Stupid because he wanted to stop other, more powerfull spells.

theunwantedbeing
23-05-2008, 10:38
Seems legitimate. (other than the masque limiting the leadership to a minimum of 2....seems I forgot to check her rules when replying initially)
You cant pass so your going to keep taking hits untill the unit dies.
So it's easier to just auto-remove the unit.

It's a hellishly tricky combo to pull off so it's perfectly in line with other such combo's that require massive combo's to pull off.

To make it a viabale strategy you need to dicth the masque from the equation.
As she's a special character and such things should never be included in regular battle.

Atrahasis
23-05-2008, 10:44
I don't have the exact wording with me, but there is no such thing as automatically losing a Ld test. Insane Courage will always work.Insane Courage only applies to break tests, not all leadership tests.

T10
23-05-2008, 11:31
Okay, granted it's not "easy" to pull off, but here is how it is done.

Verbose, as usual.

-T10

Faustburg
23-05-2008, 12:10
It takes one additional step to work...

You have assumed the Banner of Despair (lacking the "to a minimum of 2" clause) is something you can finish with, and it is not really... It is not something you can activate at your leisure, it is always on. As soon as the enemy is within 12" they will suffer the -2 Ld.

which, of course, more often than not will be during the movement phase, and thus the Leadership in the magic phase will be at two lower than normal before the effects that includes a minimum score kicks in...

So, to pull it off, in addition to the above, you need to move the Herald wit the Icon in the magic phase. You will need another caster with something like "steed of shadows" to do it.

Caboose123
23-05-2008, 12:57
A decent tactic, so why is in the rules forum?

Anyway, its tricky, quite complicated and you deserve the results if you can pull it off.

(P.S. How many points did you use to destroy the 400 points dwarves? Is it worth it?)

Akuma
23-05-2008, 13:17
"A decent tactic, so why is in the rules forum?"

It's acctualy a cantrip rather then tactic - to pull it off you have to firstly GET this spell with your KoS ... Yeah you get 4 - so there is a slight possibility that you just wont get it and what then ?

It's quite a nice ploy to use but has far to many variables to be acctualy usefull

The thing I've been toying with is 1 KoS 2 Heralds of Tzeensh in Chariots and one Slannesh Chariot mounted herald ( with Etherblade ) the rest of the list is a lot of seekers and fiends - you get to enemy on turn 2 and he may well be in the dumps ...

SPYDER68
23-05-2008, 13:19
Since when does it say you require permission to use special characters ? :P

Gaftra
23-05-2008, 13:24
this is a sound strategy, though i think youll see alot of variations on it. Getting all of the caveats to make phantasmagoria work is somewhat unlikely but what i think you will see more of is a combo of slaneesh and tzeentch units beating down their ld then using the siren banner (a unit charged by someone carrying this banner can only hold) to allow you to simply break a unit with the armies hard hitters.

if you can reliably reduce a target units ld by 3-5 points that is simply huge against just about every army and i think we will be seeing alot of this tactic.

Tutore
23-05-2008, 21:01
I see there is such a possibility, however would you try it in a real game? Isn't there a waste of points, where such a perfect result isn't sure at all?

sulla
23-05-2008, 21:43
What about the dwarven counter tactic?

Cannon the keeper to death and thunderer the rest of the daemons to death starting with the masque, all the while blasting your units with thorek's anvil to slow and disrupt them. That or a spell destroyer makes the spell go 'pop!' first time you try to use it and you sit there looking pretty silly for the rest of the game.

I don't know if I'd bother with a greater daemon vs dwarves. Seems too risky. he could be dead before you begin your first turn if there's no suitable terrain to hide him behind. I'd probably just go bloodletters and heralds on juggers to maximise vs him. Maybe a few cheap units of furies to tie up the war machines for a vital turn or two.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
23-05-2008, 21:45
Interesting replies, so far.

To Atrahasis: I use the ----- for just the reason you mentioned. It's as a form of "mental break" - a turning of the page to another part of the discussion or scenario I'm laying out. I find it helps separate the post (especially on some of my longer ones which have to be fairly sizeable to lay out all the particulars of what I'm describing), and keep the various sections separate in the mind of the readers.

I only use it for "big posts" - and before T10 can reply with a smile, not ALL my posts are this big ;)


To T10: see above ! :D



To Caboose: It's not really like you are purposely taking things to do the combo and only the combo though. You are taking things which are generally very useful....period....like a Keeper, a Herald of Tzeentch and another Herald/BSB etc. for the Banner. Granted, Masque is optional, but I only noted her since it makes the combo work easier and is needed to get those really high leadership enemy's with it. You can throw her out and the other parts of the thing still work well and will help your army. So in this sense, you aren't really giving anything major up when you take units which can pull this off....it's just a nice thing to know and to have available if the stars align and you get a chance to actually pull it off !

StefDa
23-05-2008, 22:15
Isn't it impossible to have a Ld value of less than 2?

Lord Inquisitor
23-05-2008, 22:27
To make it a viabale strategy you need to dicth the masque from the equation.
As she's a special character and such things should never be included in regular battle.
Why on earth not?

She's a hero choice right there in the army list.

Bob the Butcher
24-05-2008, 00:20
Double 1 will pass any test as far as I know see MRB.

If the dwarf player is silly enough to let all those spells off they deserve to die.

theunwantedbeing
24-05-2008, 00:28
She's a special character.
They should never be taken as part of your list except on really special occasions.
The rules may not say this but you used to need opponents permission to use them...now you dont and it's rediculous as all armies seem to contain several special character's.

Lord Inquisitor
24-05-2008, 01:36
She's a special character.
They should never be taken as part of your list except on really special occasions.
The rules may not say this but you used to need opponents permission to use them...now you dont and it's rediculous as all armies seem to contain several special character's.
Basically you should never use special characters for normal games? What the heck are they for?

The whole point of putting the characters right in the army list is to show that they are a) balanced and b) to be used!

I personally still don't use special characters much, but I never used to because I bought into the whole "you don't use special characters ever unless you want to throw game balance out the window" train of thought.

There is nothing wrong with using special characters for any game: if you don't like it then don't use them! There are many characters which alter the army composition (more common to 40K than fantasy, admittedly), so if you want a particular army then you have to use them.

If people like using special chars why try and make them feel it's wrong?

Atrahasis
24-05-2008, 01:55
You have to take the Masque out of the equation anyway - her ability cannot reduce the target's Ld below 2 ;)

theunwantedbeing
24-05-2008, 02:11
if you don't like it then don't use them!

If people like using special chars why try and make them feel it's wrong?

I dont use them....other people do.
That's the problem.
It makes the game less fun for ME, and I am as much a part of the fun aspect of the game as my opponent is.
It's only fair to do what your opponent wants every once in a while afterall.

Faustburg
24-05-2008, 07:56
You have to take the Masque out of the equation anyway - her ability cannot reduce the target's Ld below 2 ;)

Follow the OP's setup and you see she will not, it is the Icon of Despair that will take them down the last points, and it lacks the "to a minimum of 2" clause.

Not that the smart money isn't on it getting one of those in an errata, either 'official' or at least in tourney packs and such.

Atrahasis
24-05-2008, 10:08
Her ability is still contributing to the enemy's Ld being reduced below 2.

I'll add it to the list of questions for the Design Team though.

Faustburg
24-05-2008, 16:50
It doesn't matter that her ability is "contributing" to dropping the enemy Ld to below 2, her rules (and same goes for Doom and Darkness) is only concerned with themselves actaully doing so,

So the question should be:

Should the Icon of despair have a "to a minimum of 2" clause, like other Ld-diminishing abilities?


(and the likely answer is of course; Yes...)

T10
24-05-2008, 17:20
I only use it for "big posts" - and before T10 can reply with a smile, not ALL my posts are this big ;)


To T10: see above ! :D



Too late. :)

-T10

Fulgrim's-Chosen
24-05-2008, 18:45
Sigh...too late indeed ! :D

The thing is though...Atrahasis....if you wanted them to FAQ that, then they would ALSO have to FAQ Chaos Furies and the Doom and Darkness spell.

That requires nothing special....just hitting the Furies with the -3 Leadership penalty from the relatively common Doom and Darkness spell, which many armies can have access to. Now the Leadership-2 Furies drop to ....what ? Leadership-0, I guess ? (Stats can't go "negative", as far as I know).

Now you hit that unit of Leadership-0 Furies with Slicing Shards...and they should be auto-slain too ? (just like the Dwarfs in my above-example)

Are they going to have to FAQ D+Darkness / Furies too ? Or should we just accept that, although rather hard to pull off, this combo is legit and should be allowed in the rare times you can get it to work ?

Zoolander
25-05-2008, 04:30
Basically you should never use special characters for normal games? What the heck are they for?

The whole point of putting the characters right in the army list is to show that they are a) balanced and b) to be used!

I personally still don't use special characters much, but I never used to because I bought into the whole "you don't use special characters ever unless you want to throw game balance out the window" train of thought.

There is nothing wrong with using special characters for any game: if you don't like it then don't use them! There are many characters which alter the army composition (more common to 40K than fantasy, admittedly), so if you want a particular army then you have to use them.

If people like using special chars why try and make them feel it's wrong?


You used to have to get permission to use them from your opponent. I liked that rule. They were included in the back of the army book, too, not in the normal heroes section. But GW wasn't selling enough minis, so they made them fully legit now. If you ask me, special characters are not balanced. If you have ever tried to build a special character using points from the army book, you will see they are rather cheap for what they can do, and often have powers that are a little ridiculous, which is why you always had to get your opponent's permission - they were not balanced!

But why shouldn't we use them in every game, you ask? They are there to be used, for sure. But I would argue it's rather non-fluffy. Picture this: You field Archeon, the Lord of End Times. The greatest Chaos hero ever to walk the earth. He decides to raid a local Empire village with his mighty... 2000pt force? I'm sorry, but if all Archeon can muster when he raids is some warriors, some knights, some hounds, a giant and some dragon ogres, he REALLY needs to give it up. His presence alone would attract 2k-3k without doing anything! By actively gathering forces, he can muster a 5k force easily.

My point is that special characters are cool and can add a lot of flavor to the game, but if they are used in every ******* game out there, which is how common they are becoming, they are having a reverse effect, and becoming more boring the more commonplace they are. I would say limit them to greater point games, and do not field them every game you play, and they will provide more interesting games to everyone involved.

Think of them as swear words. If you say the F word every sentence, it will lose much of it's magic. Say it once in a while, and enjoy it's full effect!

T10
25-05-2008, 09:45
Sigh...too late indeed ! :D

The thing is though...Atrahasis....if you wanted them to FAQ that, then they would ALSO have to FAQ Chaos Furies and the Doom and Darkness spell.



Completely unneccessary. Chaos Furies are Daemons and are Immune to Psychology and are therefore not affected by the Doom and Darkness spell.

-T10

EvC
25-05-2008, 21:30
The true Dwarf counter: make the Slaanesh player actually roll all the dice, then your armour saves, then your leadership tests, until the unit has been destroyed. This will take approximately three hours. The game will now not progress beyond turn three due to time constraints, and the Dwarf player will probaby win due to his shooting's effectiveness :D

Fulgrim's-Chosen
25-05-2008, 21:49
T10- I didn't explain myself fully. What I meant was, they would have to FAQ:

1) Furies


2) Doom and Darkness

-----

I didn't mean that they would have to FAQ them necessarily because of how the two of them work together, as you are correct about the D+D not working on ItP units/models. What is true though is that it would work on things like Leadership-5 Goblins....knock them down to Ldrshp-2 with D+D, then hit them with the Icon of Despair (-2 to Leadership of all units/models/etc. within 12-inches; no minimum stated value as with The Masque's ability).

Ditto on Furies...because even without Doom and Darkness, you could easily have a Chaos Daemons VS Chaos Daemons battle where a unit of Furies moved up, was approached by a Herald of Slaanesh with that Banner of -2 to Leadership *Making the Furies Leadership-0*, then have that unit get hit by the Slicing Shards spell and we'd have the same "auto-destruction" thing that I originally presented with the Dwarfs.

It just becomes easier to accomplish, and less complex, with the Lower base leadership of the targeted enemy unit.

Akuma
25-05-2008, 22:59
"The true Dwarf counter: make the Slaanesh player actually roll all the dice, then your armour saves, then your leadership tests, until the unit has been destroyed. This will take approximately three hours. The game will now not progress beyond turn three due to time constraints, and the Dwarf player will probaby win due to his shooting's effectiveness"

Dont forget to acctualy look the other way few times to force reroll ... Yeah but seriously I wander what time would it take for this spell to wipe out 20 ironbrakers ...

Dark_Mage99
26-05-2008, 01:07
Not very long if the attacks are Strength 5, and their Ld is 1.

EvC
26-05-2008, 13:59
Ah, you miss the point, Dark_Mage99. We know that it's definite destruction, but if the dice are rolled, which the Dwarf player could insist upon, you now have to roll up the number of hits, work out the wounds, then take the saves, then remove the casualties ("I'll just put them delicately back in the case, only take a minute"), then take the leadership test, then start again from scratch. Though I despise stalling tactics, I think it would be quite funny for a Dwarf player to drag this kind of silliness out as long as it possibly takes :D

Spirit
26-05-2008, 21:21
I really dont see the problem with people using most of the new special characters.

I dont personally use them, but they seem to be getting better at balancing them. I mean the maske has 2 T4 (3?) wounds and cant join units, ok she doesnt need line of sight for her abilities, but most armies have easy ways to pick out a single character running about.

T10
26-05-2008, 22:54
All that being said and done, it's probably cheaper to buy a level 1 wizard and have him cast Conflagration of Doom with Irresistable Force and have the subsequent roll-offs go 6/1 in his favour for, well, forever.

Just takes a bit of luck and a lot less preparation.

-T10

decker_cky
27-05-2008, 00:06
The point is more important against lower leadership units (largely goblins, skaven without ranks, BoC units and VC or TK units outside general's leadership range), you can get it off with only 1 or 2 of the things going off, and all the parts you start working on are used in other ways too (terror tests for example) so it's not really working towards a 1 trick offense.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
27-05-2008, 13:45
Greetings again Decker. You are everywhere ! ;)

I agree about your great point regarding it on Undead units. That has gotten me excited to use against some opponents I regularly face. Just a single casting of plain old Slicing Shards on Zombies and you can "more or less" remove the entire unit since it's only going to stop if the enemy rolls "1, 1" on his Ldrship roll since Zombies are wretched Ldr-2, IIRC.

Skeletons have a nearly-as-bad chance of survival too.


This has got me thinking Deck....I wonder if it's worth it, against Vampire Counts at least, to have your Heralds of Slaanesh roll and try to get Slicing Shards, instead of going with the usual standard of Acquiesence (also awesome). Taking multiple Heralds with Slicing Shards could be very strong for a Slaanesh force since the enemy general would have to be stopping almost every casting or risk whole units being cut to shreds with a single casting of the spell.

Also, since you can borrow a die from the Common Pool, the Heralds can make the roll with 2d6, and the spell only needs a "7+" anyways, so you should make it (on average) with just 2-dice being rolled.

Atrahasis
27-05-2008, 14:39
Only if the target units aren't near the general, which is pretty much death for a VC army anyway.

Armilthuan
27-05-2008, 14:44
If it is possible (due to ItP), you are better off making them stupid. They aren't worth the points.

Casting the shards on Grave Gaurd with -3/-5 Ld penalty is far more effective.

fubukii
27-05-2008, 16:17
Ah, you miss the point, Dark_Mage99. We know that it's definite destruction, but if the dice are rolled, which the Dwarf player could insist upon, you now have to roll up the number of hits, work out the wounds, then take the saves, then remove the casualties ("I'll just put them delicately back in the case, only take a minute"), then take the leadership test, then start again from scratch. Though I despise stalling tactics, I think it would be quite funny for a Dwarf player to drag this kind of silliness out as long as it possibly takes :D

to Add further insult to injury isnt there a banner that gives dwarves a 5+ ward save vs shooting and or magic missles 4+ save +5 ward :) that will take forever to remove

soots
27-05-2008, 20:54
5th edition with Magic Arcanum expansion.

Liche/Necromancer - in a unit with 30 allied skaven slaves (cheap).
- Drain Life, Gaze Nagash, Curse Years, Summon Undead
- Item lets you cast with total power, at the cost of a nominated stat - Wounds.
- Cast Gaze, Summon, Gaze total power. When down to one wound, cast drain life on your own unit. Rinse repeat. GAME OVER!

Spirit
27-05-2008, 20:56
Whats that got to do with the thread soots?

Fulgrim's-Chosen
27-05-2008, 21:30
Nothing lol. ;)

Lord Inquisitor
27-05-2008, 22:10
I dont use them....other people do.
That's the problem.
It makes the game less fun for ME, and I am as much a part of the fun aspect of the game as my opponent is.
It's only fair to do what your opponent wants every once in a while afterall.
That's a quite frankly ludicrous position. It is entirely equivalent to saying that I shouldn't use Greater Daemons because you don't like them.

Let's say I don't enjoy gunline armies. Now, I can say I don't like gunlines, I can even ask my opponent not to run a gunline army as it is a less enjoyable game for me - or at least, not run a gunline army every time. But there's nothing wrong with gunline armies per se and if you toted out a gunline army every time that's your perogative.

The same applies to special characters. Why shouldn't you use them every game if you wanted to? After all, you've got the model, painted it up, just like any other unit. And yet veteran wargamers will stick up their nose at you.

The rarity isn't a big deal either. You can run an ancient dragon every time or one of the very limited steam tanks. So what if Karl Franz is in every army you field? Obviously this army is his personal bodyguard!

Now don't get me wrong, I think many special characters are best reserved for big or special games. Equally, just trotting out Grimgor whatever army you field with no thought to it can get a little old. Then again, sometimes it is appropriate to bring a special character every time. I was considering a Beasts army build around Morgur with lots of Spawn and gribblies. That army simply wouldn't have worked without the character. Equally, an Empire army built around the Imperial Guard as the Emperor's personal retinue really rather justifies taking the Emperor no matter how small the engagement!

Switching over to 40K, sometimes special characters aren't so special anyway. If you take a Deathwing army and give them a Captain, that Captain will be Belial. There is simply no such thing as a generic Deathwing captain. There is only one!

If someone takes a special character, they've chosen a unit in their army list. Just as I might restrict myself from selecting Khorne units in my Slaanesh-themed daemon army, I can restrict myself from taking the Masque in every game. But that's my choice, not yours.


You used to have to get permission to use them from your opponent. I liked that rule. They were included in the back of the army book, too, not in the normal heroes section. But GW wasn't selling enough minis, so they made them fully legit now.
They were always selling the mins - everyone just used Grimgor as their normal Black Orc Boss.

They changed it because noone ever took special characters. "Opponent's permission" just translated to "hideously unbalanced" (and some of them were!) I didn't use special characters for a long time, neither did anyone I knew.

Then they got rid of the "opponent's permission," which was a good thing IMO. Some years ago, I arranged a game, and more or less on a whim decided to include Mannfred. I hadn't used a special in maybe 5 or 6 years before that. And, while I'd normally run this past my opponent anyway, I didn't have time so just plonked him on the table. And my opponent was clearly upset about it.

Nowadays the characters are right in the army list to try and stop this from being a perceived problem.

And yet people still have issues with them. What do they need to do to make them acceptable?



If you ask me, special characters are not balanced. If you have ever tried to build a special character using points from the army book, you will see they are rather cheap for what they can do, and often have powers that are a little ridiculous, which is why you always had to get your opponent's permission - they were not balanced!
They're actually easier to balance than regular characters as they are static. A vampire lord has a staggering number of options. Vlad has none. Theoretically, you should playtest every variation - and potentially vicious combos can sneak past playtesting.

In some ways, you might be right that they can be cheaper. A special that is balanced might be cheaper than a generic - because the generic has to be pointed so that they're not unbalanced no matter what combo you try to build.

But that's all hypothetical. Special characters are now units in the army list. They should be as balanced as anything else in the list.


But why shouldn't we use them in every game, you ask? They are there to be used, for sure. But I would argue it's rather non-fluffy. Picture this: You field Archeon, the Lord of End Times. The greatest Chaos hero ever to walk the earth. He decides to raid a local Empire village with his mighty... 2000pt force?
Which will be rather smaller than 2000 points once you factor him in... ;)

So what? Maybe this is Archaeon's personal guard? Maybe your pitched battle is just the most exciting part of the larger war?

Besides, the example was the Masque, a lowly herald. Who knows if there is only one masque anyway? In 40K, you are encouraged to use the special characters and give them other names if you want to use them for e.g. a successor chapter.

soots
28-05-2008, 03:05
Whats that got to do with the thread soots?

Pointing out that you could autodestroy in 5th edition with far more consistency and without the ability to avoid it.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
30-05-2008, 20:38
Ahh...a retro-reference !

In any event, this spell is quite powerful.

I'm actually wondering if it's not best to KEEP it for your Heralds, if they roll it up at random, INSTEAD of subbing it for the Acquiesence (also awesome), first spell in the Lore ?

Given that S-Shards only takes a 7+ to cast, and the Heralds can use their basic dice plus 1 from the Pool (2-Total), they SHOULD (on average) be making those S-Shards casting rolls.

This could effectively result in THREE S-Shards going off / being cast per turn when you factor in the Keeper (if he also got the spell).

Granted, it's not a guaranteed thing with them that you will actually get that spell, but it's nice to know it's a potential option if you are playing an army with very low unit-leadership like VC's or Goblins, etc.