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Cycorax
24-05-2008, 00:22
Hey, i'm looking for some wisdom on fighting my friends skaven, we're rather new to playing games so we're playing low point games at the moment.

We've played a couple of games at 500 - 1000 point levels, I've had average success as we only ever draw against each other or get minor victories. The main problems i have with him is he often takes many skirmishers and gutter runners deployed with an assassin. I find this unit had to deal with as my shooting often cant take out the assassin fast enough and the unit really packs a punch in shooting. Also to my dismay he almost always takes the blasted brass orb which makes a mockery of my poor I1 saurus :cries:.

I'm currently making a new 500 point list and would like some advise. I want to use a fast and aggressive force.

I'll post up my army list soon, any advise is welcome!

Ipeninrod
24-05-2008, 02:40
Salamanders!

soots
24-05-2008, 02:54
Priority hit list

1. Weapons teams. You must get rid of these asap.
2. Warlocks. If hes heavy magic, youll get bombared by S5 hits. Bring Dispel power.

Keep your battle line firm, so you dont get surrounded or broken up.

Think twice before pursuing, its better to keep the battle line straight because you will get surrounded. A skaven army can afford to sacrifice a 25 man unit easily to break up a battle line and take advantage of their numbers.

Skinks may not be a great idea, shooting skaven is like peeing in the ocean.

Cycorax
24-05-2008, 02:59
I wrote up this rough 500 pointer - criticism welcome.
Note this is using the border patrol rules!

Scar-vet w/ shield, LA, GW, Jag charm - 113pts

10 skinks /w b.pipe and scout - 70pts

13 skinks /w jav and shield - 78pts

1 sally hunting pack - 65pts

12 saurus /w full cmd - 210pts

500pts

Rhamag
24-05-2008, 03:08
Can you give us an idea of the rest of the list your Skaven friend uses? Does he use much magic and/or shooting? I don't know much about Lizardmen, but I've been playing Skaven regularly for a while now and I can hopefully point out their weaknesses for you.

Brass Orb - this is from a warlock engineer in a ranked unit? With 8" range, he'll only have one turn to make it count before you charge, and if on that turn his unit is engaged in combat with some terradons for example or even some skinks on the flank, all they have to do is keep the unit busy for a single turn of his and he'll never get chance to throw it.

Is he definitely following the Mainstay rule? If he has 2x units of night-runners he needs 2x clanrats. Although 1 clanrat would let him take 1x night- and 1x gutter-runners.

Get as many Fear/Terror causing units as you can. Skaven hate taking Ld tests. Once they start running, they rarely stop.

Nearly all infantry in the Skaven list is Str 3 (except stormvermin w/halberds, rat ogres and plague censer bearers I believe). Anything which is T4 or more is hard for Skaven to kill without shooting/warp-lightning.

OldMagik
24-05-2008, 03:12
thus the salamander hunting pack . . . which causes fear
i don't think a JSOD is very good at this level since this is ur general u want him to stay alive and around ur army . . and u can't use shield with GW anyway

Rhamag
24-05-2008, 03:24
thus the salamander hunting pack . . . which causes fear

I didn't know that. Cool. That'll do the trick then. How about kroxigors?

The_Dragon_Rising
24-05-2008, 10:41
How about kroxigors?

Not at 500 points against skaven. Low armour, high strength, high points krox vs low armour, low toughness, cheap skaven isnt a good match. Krox excell at knight, chariot, hunting of which skaven have none to my knowledge.

Cycorax
24-05-2008, 13:34
Thanks for all the help guys.

Yes he does follow the mainstay rules, we try and keep it legit as possible :D.
He doesnt often use a lot of shooting in bigger games, except of course a warp lightning cannon and a rattling gun. i dont find these much of a nuisance at all, the rattling gun dies instantly to a volley of javelins.
thus the salamander hunting pack . . . which causes fear
i don't think a JSOD is very good at this level since this is ur general u want him to stay alive and around ur army . . and u can't use shield with GW anyway

He can use it when hes being shot at though and if he leaves the unit he may be left vulnerable for a turn or so.

I was going for a JSOD simply because i know my saurus will mash his clan rats and/or plague monks and its always his skirmishers that are left slinging and warp star'ing them. These few turns always leaves my saurus running around willy nilly not being able to do anything. This is where my Scar-vet could just leave the unit and easily pursue and probably finish off his assassin. Usually by this point he would of cleared my skinks off the board with his superior skirmishers. But to be honest i think i'm being too paranoid about these gutter/night runners xD, i think my skinks and sally can handle them. Maybe i should just make my scar vet more killy with those 20 points... Any ideas? I've always loved the venom of the firefly frog :D.

I was wondering, if the rank bonus is negated by a flank or rear charge, does that mean that the skaven lose their extra LD as well as the ranks?

Kai Itzah
24-05-2008, 13:50
This is what I would reccomend:

Saurus Scar Veteran: Light Armour, Shield, Sword of the Hornet, Charm of the Jaguar Warrior, Sacred Spawning of Quetzl.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes: Scouts, Brave.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin & Shield: Brave.

12 Saurus Warriors

Salamander Hunting Pack.

The General will zip around the map killing the small troops if the scouting Skinks aren't able to wipe them out from their positions. The Saurus Warriors with a Skink screen will hopefully be a missile fire attraction while the Salamander reduces their flanks to cinders. Here's 1000:


Saurus Scar Veteran: Light Armour, Shield, Sword of the Hornet, Charm of the Jaguar Warrior, Sacred Spawning of Quetzl.

Skink Priest: Second Level Upgrade.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes: Scouts, Brave.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin & Shield: Brave.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin & Shield: Brave.

12 Saurus Warriors: Standard Bearer, Spawning Champion.

12 Saurus Warriors: Standard Bearer, Spawning Champion, Sacred Spawning of Quetzl.

3 Terradon Riders: Brave.

Salamander Hunting Pack.

Pretty much the same as before except this time you have as an almost certainty that those war machine crews will be eaten by the speed of the Terradons.

Cycorax
24-05-2008, 15:10
I would do something similar to your list at 500 Kai Itzah but we're doing the border patrol rules and you cant have a model worth more than 125pts :(.

kdh88
25-05-2008, 21:31
I was wondering, if the rank bonus is negated by a flank or rear charge, does that mean that the skaven lose their extra LD as well as the ranks?

Yep. They also don't get it when fleeing.

If you want fast and aggressive you might go with Sarus Cav instead of warriors. It's a bit risky since it leaves you without an infantry block, but they're great at killing hordes, and cause fear as well. They are a points sink at that level though, and Stupidity can be a real killer, so you should probably proxy them first to see how they work out for you.

Also, you realize that a 210 point unit of saurus with full command would be 15 right? Probably a typo, but I figured I'd check.

Cycorax
26-05-2008, 14:46
We played the 500 point yesterday, didnt go too well :mad:!
He took a warlock with some nasty items that aloud him to use up my 2 dispel dice with a bound item, then he'd hit me with 2d6 S5 hits a turn - which massacred my saurus block in 2 turns and my sally in 1. Couldnt really do anything about it.

Ward.
26-05-2008, 15:07
I guess you mean the storm daemon? my advice is to ignore the bound item as it only casts the first level of warp lightning.

Inform him that using a level that much magic in a warband game is considered unsporting (Although admittedly it's also expected that you go nuts in warband games.

Kai Itzah
26-05-2008, 15:26
I would do something similar to your list at 500 Kai Itzah but we're doing the border patrol rules and you cant have a model worth more than 125pts :(.

If you do play another game, give this list a go - revised from my other one for Border Patrol.

Saurus Scar Veteran - Great Weapon, Light Armour, Charm of the Jaguar Warrior. 111pts.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes - Brave, Scouts. 75pts.

10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelin & Shield - Brave. 65pts.

12 Saurus Warriors - Standard Bearer, Spawning Champion. 168pts.

5 Chameleon Skinks - Stalker. 81pts.

With only one hero because of border patrol, I couldn't really reccomend anything other than swapping the Salamander for Chameleon Skinks so you can plant them in front of the Warlock Engineer and hope you get lucky. It's difficult going 500pts against an enemy who can realistically use a powerful magic caster as it's general.

Cycorax
26-05-2008, 15:30
But he was planted in a unit of clanrats, I'm pretty sure you cant snipe characters in units?

Dexter099
27-05-2008, 18:37
Nope. You need to take some magic defense. Take a skink priest and give him 2 dispel scrolls. Should help you out a ton.

huitzilopochtli
29-05-2008, 01:12
500pt lizzies

personally, i'd use a red crest army. rules are online for this;
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:dpqmsV-XYw8J:gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/assets/warhammer/redhost.pdf+red+host+of+tehenhauin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ie

then i'd go with;

skink chief; dagger of sotek, light armour, shield, sotek (94pts)
[alternatively: skink priest; sotek, dagger of sotek or dispell scroll (100pts]

11 red crested skinks, standard, champion, sign of sotek standard (118pts)
10 red crested skinks, standard, champion (86pts)

10 skirmishers, sotek (70pts)

2 salamanders (130pts)

total (498pts)

i've used all of these against skaven before, and though i'm not familiar with any of the skaven rules i did not find it difficult to secure a win.

the main weakness of this army is the low ld, 6 at best. if you feel this is a problem swap back to the scar vet and rank him alongside the skinks.

aside from this magic will be a problem. the best thing to do is to get to the enemy as fast as you can and hope for a little luck.

the idea behind this is to force multiple fear tests and panic tests. use your skink skirmishers as decoys, drawing out any surprises. don't be afraid to let them die, and when your red crests hit home, charge these guys with them. they have the spawning of sotek too so make use of it!

focus your fire on one unit at a time (including salamanders spout flames).
this way you increase the chances of causing panic.

go for broke in one, all out charge. being able to reroll misses and wounds for one of your units (possibly including your chief with the killing blow weapon) makes red crests very formidable against skaven.

never take one sally. they don't function well on their own.
never take braves in skirmisher units.

Cycorax
29-05-2008, 02:06
Does the red host require permission to be used? Or is it fully legit?
I like the idea, seeing as most of my battles are vs skaven and my paint scheme uses alot of red, red scales and crests for example so it fits =D.

Kai Itzah
29-05-2008, 11:00
But he was planted in a unit of clanrats, I'm pretty sure you cant snipe characters in units?

That's where the hope you get lucky comes into it. :D

But the other guys Red Host list is good, certainly I would have gone with that but I assumed you wanted to stick the normal rules. Red Host is made to fight Skaven - ah one thing I just noticed about the other guy's Red Host list is that you cannot have a Red Crest unit less than 15.

With that I'd swap the Skink Chief for a Priest for Red Crests, Dispel Scroll and Bane Head. Bump the two units of Red Crests up to 15 (drop the magic banner because as you know you can't have magic banners in border patrol). If you drop the normal skinks then you've got enough points left for two Salamanders.

(Personally in this situation I would have instantly opted for the Chief with the Dagger, but seeing as magic is the main issue I've gone with the Priest)

huitzilopochtli
29-05-2008, 12:19
oops, forgot units couldn't be less than fifteen, my apologies. as for the banner, i didn't know you couldn't use it, sorry again. how's this?

skink priest, sotek, dispell scroll, charm of the jaguar, red crest (125)

15 red crests, champion, standard (121)
15 red crests, champion, standard (121)

2 salamanders (130)

total (497)

hopefully this army fits better.

i've chosen the jaguar charm here instead of the bane head because, to be honest, i don't see the bane head being much use. if you prefer you can swap back, of course.

the idea here would be to cast bear's anger on the priest himself and use him as the spearhead for your attack. (4, S5 attacks are not to be sneezed at). he could then charge directly at the enemy and with some careful positioning, could hold them up for a turn, allowing your other troops to get the all important charge. also, since bear's anger is a remains in play spell, you'll be tempting your opponent to waste precious power dice dispelling it, if you can make it look dangerous enough.

main drawbacks, low ld of 5 everywhere. if you start running, you are not likely to stop.

i'd suggest you leave the salamaders in the middle of the field, between your red crests. that way your opponent either has to charge them, (hopefully failing the fear test), or leave himself open to a flank charge by them. something like this:

S= sally unit
R=red crest unit

S S
RRRRR RRRRR

here i've only shown the front ranks, and the salamanders themselves, for convenience.