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Lost_In_Lustria
24-05-2008, 15:52
What unit strength do you give Fell Bats? They're described as a flying unit which suggests US1, but have 2 wounds like Great Eagles which have US2.

vampires are cool!
24-05-2008, 16:13
I believe the Great eagles have some form of special rule covering their unit strength. Fell Bats do not possess any similar rule, and their entry states that they are a flying unit. This said i would imagine that they only have unit strength 1. In that vein when fielding them its best to take large units - tens the best. Anything under that is pretty much a waste.

Belerophon709
24-05-2008, 16:27
Eagles are monsters with the fly rule. They're not a "unit of flyers". Hence, their US equals their # of starting wounds.

Fell bats are indeed a "unit of flyers" and as such have US1, even though they have 2 wounds each.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
24-05-2008, 18:47
Is it still true (they haven't FAQ'd it otherwise) that Vamps can ressurect Fell Bats as if they were Infantry, using the Invocation Spell and / or bonuses from the Corpse Cart for +1 further Wound, restored ? It seems rather broken to let them do that, but the book implies they are "infantry", if its not a typo. :confused:

Festus
24-05-2008, 20:00
Hi

Yes, they are infantry, as they are neither chariots, nor cavalry, nor monsters, nor characters....

Festus

Fulgrim's-Chosen
24-05-2008, 20:07
Great for the Vamps then ! My prime opponent plays Invo-Spam, and he just tried out the Fell Bats for the first time last battle. They didn't do all that much, as he only had one unit, but if you can take that power that lets you raise them beyond their starting strength...ouch...they could quickly get to their max size pretty quick (F-M-I - what is their max unit size ?).

Tarax
24-05-2008, 20:09
To the OP: Great Eagles have 3 wounds and 2 attacks, so US 3.

Fell Bats are listed as Flying Unit, so all those rule apply, ie US 1, move as skirmishers AND -1 to hit penalty when being shot at. (Bad for me, good for you. ;) )

dinobot
24-05-2008, 22:58
A unit of 3 bat swarms would have unit strength 9, because of the cloud of horror rule, right?

explorator
24-05-2008, 23:08
what is their max unit size ?).

Only 10 :)


A unit of 3 bat swarms would have unit strength 9, because of the cloud of horror rule, right?

Yes, but as a flying unit (re:skirmishers), they will not break ranks.

Zoolander
25-05-2008, 04:11
To the OP: Great Eagles have 3 wounds and 2 attacks, so US 3.

Fell Bats are listed as Flying Unit, so all those rule apply, ie US 1, move as skirmishers AND -1 to hit penalty when being shot at. (Bad for me, good for you. ;) )

Not exactly. Units of bats do not receive the -1 penalty to be shot at because they are not man-sized. They are on 40ml base size, not 20 or 25.

WLBjork
25-05-2008, 07:52
Zoolander:

1)Fell Bats are in fact mansized - the description states that they are "horrific predators as large as a man".

2) Being mansized has nothing to do with getting the -1 to hit for skirmishing. The requirement is being US1.

(Are you thinking of the Bat Swarm? As a swarm, these use a 40mm base.)

Zoolander
25-05-2008, 16:33
Zoolander:

1)Fell Bats are in fact mansized - the description states that they are "horrific predators as large as a man".

2) Being mansized has nothing to do with getting the -1 to hit for skirmishing. The requirement is being US1.

(Are you thinking of the Bat Swarm? As a swarm, these use a 40mm base.)

1) I don't care what their description says. Their base size determines whether they are man-sized or not, and Fell Bats are on 40mm bases, which is not man-sized.

2) Incorrect. Check page 67 of the BRB, under the Shooting section, last paragraph. "Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 penalty...".

I was using that rule incorrectly for the longest time, too. It's a common mistake. :)

WLBjork
25-05-2008, 16:40
1) I don't care what their description says. Their base size determines whether they are man-sized or not, and Fell Bats are on 40mm bases, which is not man-sized.

2) Incorrect. Check page 67 of the BRB, under the Shooting section, last paragraph. "Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 penalty...".

I was using that rule incorrectly for the longest time, too. It's a common mistake. :)

You're definately wrong on 2.

It's been corrected in the BRB FAQ, which has been available since 19/12/2006 :p

As a unit of flyers is, by definition US1, they are -1 to hit for being skirmishers.

Loopstah
25-05-2008, 16:42
2) Incorrect. Check page 67 of the BRB, under the Shooting section, last paragraph. "Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 penalty...".

I was using that rule incorrectly for the longest time, too. It's a common mistake. :)

Wrong.

It also says "as if they were shooting at a single man-sized model (see the shooting section)."

If you then look at the shooting section like it tells you to, then you'll see that the -1 penalty applies if it's a "unit of models with unit strength 1 who are in a skirmish formation."

Fell Bats are skirmishers with US 1 models so they give a -1 penalty to hit.

Spirit
25-05-2008, 19:15
Great for the Vamps then ! My prime opponent plays Invo-Spam, and he just tried out the Fell Bats for the first time last battle. They didn't do all that much, as he only had one unit, but if you can take that power that lets you raise them beyond their starting strength...ouch...they could quickly get to their max size pretty quick (F-M-I - what is their max unit size ?).


I dont think max size has anything to do with the summon powers, as far as i know you can go above that awell.

WLBjork
25-05-2008, 21:18
Nope, new VCs can only raise Zombos above starting number without use of a Power.

edit: Just realised what spirit said - oops!

I think that if you are capable of raising more of a unit, you can indeed raise it above the maximum permitted purchased size.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
25-05-2008, 22:11
See....then that could quickly get ridiculous (Well, it already is with Invo-Spam...one of the poorest game-mechanics decisions that GW has made in a while, IMHO). You could take that Creatures of the Night thing that lets you boost Fell Bats, Dire Wolves, etc. beyond starting strength, have the Corpse Cart nearby and start 1-dicing it (3+) with your Lord Vampire that has 5 Power Dice (or so). You should cast it successfully 3-4 times at that rate and on average get 3-ish per roll to see how many wounds you restore/add, +1 from Corpse Cart so 4 Wounds = 2 new Fell Bats per casting.

Boom. First turn, there's 6-8 more of the things into that unit.

Ugh. Invo Spam...:rolleyes:

Spirit
25-05-2008, 22:30
To be honest, what are 7 or 8 fell bats going to achieve that 3 or 4 cant? They are S3 T3 with 2 attacks at WS3, they cant cancel ranks and are US 1 each.

I would rather raise my dead skeletons or my grave guard.

treben1234
03-10-2008, 02:31
Three FellBats are easy to shoot down. Two groups of three FellBats will still get shot down. Two units of seven fell bats will weather a round of shooting.

It does not make them more offencive it just increases there chances of getting into combat.

Scene warmachines would be far back and you wouldn't put a fragile unit of
three FellBats up front in your army to charge lone charators, turn one would be used to get things closer and ION.

Turn two they would have enough wounds to weather a round of shooting or magic. So you start chargeing or getting close. Turn three all his mages jump into units or have been killed by you winged freinds. Then you move on to warmachine crews and range shooters. The mages in the units can be attack by the vampires in your units. Worse case the mages jump into the woods. The point of them is to take out warmachine crew, lone mages, march block and muck up your oppoents plans.

So yes there is a point. To raise them, you just need a purpose for them.

That and they sould be a huge fire magnet that can be used to sapport your Blood Knights, or at least moblie screen.

w3rm
06-10-2008, 23:39
im pretty sure (coorect me if im wrong) that fell bats r swarms which under all circumstances have a unit str of whatever there starting wounds r no matter how many wounds they take

EvC
07-10-2008, 00:06
To be honest, what are 7 or 8 fell bats going to achieve that 3 or 4 cant?

Kill stuff that runs into them?

Spirit
07-10-2008, 00:07
Three FellBats are easy to shoot down. Two groups of three FellBats will still get shot down. Two units of seven fell bats will weather a round of shooting.

It does not make them more offencive it just increases there chances of getting into combat.

Scene warmachines would be far back and you wouldn't put a fragile unit of
three FellBats up front in your army to charge lone charators, turn one would be used to get things closer and ION.

Turn two they would have enough wounds to weather a round of shooting or magic. So you start chargeing or getting close. Turn three all his mages jump into units or have been killed by you winged freinds. Then you move on to warmachine crews and range shooters. The mages in the units can be attack by the vampires in your units. Worse case the mages jump into the woods. The point of them is to take out warmachine crew, lone mages, march block and muck up your oppoents plans.

So yes there is a point. To raise them, you just need a purpose for them.

That and they sould be a huge fire magnet that can be used to sapport your Blood Knights, or at least moblie screen.

I can honestly say i have never needed 14 fell bats. I would rather have the 220 points in something usefull.

3 fell bats wont get shot down if you know how to use fly. turn 1, they fly behind a unit/forest, turn 2 they fly infront of a cannon (out of sight from archers) and vanhells in. If they dont vanhells, the enemy can turn his entire archer formation to kill them (woo less dead from the important stuff) or leave them ,in which case turn 3, dead machine.

If my opponent gets a spell off against my vamps, he is lucky. And if any mages are facing the bats, they'd better kill them, else they are getting 4s3 attacks with vanhells for an eaten mage.

For blood knights, use dire wolves, they are 8 points, not 20.

Theres no way anything can shoot at a unit of fell bats unless i want them too, 20" move and skirmish makes it impossible. And anything that can has generally wasted a turn firing at a 60 point unit.





im pretty sure (coorect me if im wrong) that fell bats r swarms which under all circumstances have a unit str of whatever there starting wounds r no matter how many wounds they take

Consider yourself corrected, they are most definately not swarms.

They are flying infantry and are thus US1 regardless.

Bat SWARMS, are though.



Kill stuff that runs into them?

I would rather be 80 points closer to a varghulf so i can run into them quite honestly!!

treben1234
07-10-2008, 00:27
Fell bats are unit strength one, Your thinking of Bats Swarms which states in there proflie as unit strength 2. I went over this with a red shirt last week end. He didnt beleave in tell we spent 10 min in rule books.

They are not calvary or monsters don't move in groups. Infantry can have larger bases (it in the consult the rule book ) So units with the fly move are nothing more then skirmishers (that are infantry) with a fly move. Charators have more wounds but are still unit strength one thoe there not charatos.

Nehek gives you "1d6 wounds back worth of models" so a 3 will give you 2 bats with 3 wounds total and a roll of 6 will give you 3 fell bats at full wounds. I play Vc and looked for months to see if it was to good to be true.

After bringing this up a my local Gw the only catogory that fell bats fit into is flying skirmisher which is infantry with the skirmish rule and skirmishers with the an optinal fly movment. So in tell the next errata or new BRB or Vampire counts codex they now have a play in my hoard army/


Also bat swarms lose there swarm on there profile but in there profile that they have unit strength 2 so they will only get 1 wound back per casting.

treben1234
07-10-2008, 04:03
3 fell bats wont get shot down if you know how to use fly. turn 1, they fly behind a unit/forest, turn 2 they fly infront of a cannon (out of sight from archers) and vanhells in. If they dont vanhells, the enemy can turn his entire archer formation to kill them (woo less dead from the important stuff) or leave them ,in which case turn 3, dead machine.

If my opponent gets a spell off against my vamps, he is lucky. And if any mages are facing the bats, they'd better kill them, else they are getting 4s3 attacks with vanhells for an eaten mage.

For blood knights, use dire wolves, they are 8 points, not 20.

Theres no way anything can shoot at a unit of fell bats unless i want them too, 20" move and skirmish makes it impossible. And anything that can has generally wasted a turn firing at a 60 point unit.







I would rather be 80 points closer to a varghulf so i can run into them quite honestly!![/QUOTE]

Sorry I didn'nt meantion this before but I am going to be using fell bats for the first time in on saturday so Im new at this stratagy stuff. In other words thanks for the tip I think I will try it your way first. Thoe I do know this one killer combo you can do with them. And I was going to use extra fell bats as additional screaning for my blood knights.

EvC
07-10-2008, 11:08
I would rather be 80 points closer to a varghulf so i can run into them quite honestly!!

Tell that to my opponent last night- when his Varghulf charged, if he'd had 5 Fell Bats waiting expectently behind my troops, then I'd have had to take the charge rather than flee and leave the Varghulf sitting out away from the action.

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2008, 11:20
Back to the original question:

Since most players acquiese that Fell bats are US1, would they also accept that Screamers are US1?

Atrahasis
07-10-2008, 11:32
would they also accept that Screamers are US1?Why wouldn't they? :P

Lordsaradain
07-10-2008, 11:41
Back to the original question:

Since most players acquiese that Fell bats are US1, would they also accept that Screamers are US1?

They most definetly are. Screamers have only 1W, so even players inclined to think that the number of wounds detirmine unit strenght must agree to this.

On fell bats, they can be good in large units, say you start with 3 and charge a dwarven warmachine. Then you raise an additional two, now if you win combat you will autobreak the stubborn dwarf crew even though you may not have managed to kill them due to autobreak and fear.

treben1234
07-10-2008, 11:42
not familure with them I will check there codex and rule book after work.

EvC
07-10-2008, 11:46
Back to the original question:

Since most players acquiese that Fell bats are US1, would they also accept that Screamers are US1?

I see more people confused and expecting Flamers and Wraiths to be US2...

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2008, 12:23
Shouldn't they all then have the same base size - Screamers, Flamers at 25mm and Wraiths and Fell bats, at 20mm? .

but not Cavalry base size for some Daemon units?

T10
07-10-2008, 13:01
im pretty sure (coorect me if im wrong) that fell bats r swarms which under all circumstances have a unit str of whatever there starting wounds r no matter how many wounds they take

You are wrong on several accounts:

- "I am" is not spelled "im"
- "correct" is not spelled "coorect"
- "are" is not spelled "r"
- Fell Bats are not swarms.
- Swarms do not have a unit strength equal to starting number of wounds.

I'm happy to contribute my bit to the Great Effort.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2008, 13:06
Great T10 :D but isn't the right expression 'wrong on several counts' or maybe you were wrong too?:D

Atrahasis
07-10-2008, 14:00
Shouldn't they all then have the same base size - Screamers, Flamers at 25mm and Wraiths and Fell bats, at 20mm? .
Base size and Unit Strength are in no way linked, except that anything on a 25x50 base is cavalry and therefore US2.

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2008, 14:27
Hmm, I was sure that most readers would have recognised my question as a rule proposal instead of a rules enquiry.:p

Atrahasis
07-10-2008, 14:38
As a rule proposal it completely alters the dynamic of the units, and is therefore daft ;)

Spirit
08-10-2008, 00:29
Fell bats are unit strength one, Your thinking of Bats Swarms which states in there proflie as unit strength 2. I went over this with a red shirt last week end. He didnt beleave in tell we spent 10 min in rule books.

They are not calvary or monsters don't move in groups. Infantry can have larger bases (it in the consult the rule book ) So units with the fly move are nothing more then skirmishers (that are infantry) with a fly move. Charators have more wounds but are still unit strength one thoe there not charatos.

Nehek gives you "1d6 wounds back worth of models" so a 3 will give you 2 bats with 3 wounds total and a roll of 6 will give you 3 fell bats at full wounds. I play Vc and looked for months to see if it was to good to be true.

After bringing this up a my local Gw the only catogory that fell bats fit into is flying skirmisher which is infantry with the skirmish rule and skirmishers with the an optinal fly movment. So in tell the next errata or new BRB or Vampire counts codex they now have a play in my hoard army/


Also bat swarms lose there swarm on there profile but in there profile that they have unit strength 2 so they will only get 1 wound back per casting.


Bat swarms are unit strength one with the cloud of horror rule, which makes them unit strength THREE, not Two.

Also i retract my last statement on bat swarms. They are not swarms, they are just flying 3 wound models with the undead rule. Nowhere does it say they are swarms.

apbevan
08-10-2008, 01:09
well yes and no. Page 50 has swarms listed for bat swarms but the faq gets rid of swarm rules stating its irrelevant.

Bat Swarms are both a Flying unit and 40/50mm base so what unit strength are they? I would assume 3.

Fell bats are a Flying unit. They are unit strength 1

T10
08-10-2008, 07:18
Great T10 :D but isn't the right expression 'wrong on several counts' or maybe you were wrong too?:D

Nobody is perfect; I merely aspire.

(Could've said "perspire".)

-T10

treben1234
08-10-2008, 23:23
Bat swarms are unit strength one with the cloud of horror rule, which makes them unit strength THREE, not Two.

Also i retract my last statement on bat swarms. They are not swarms, they are just flying 3 wound models with the undead rule. Nowhere does it say they are swarms.


Thanks mate I thought they were BatSwarms are unit strength 2. not 3. Kow they starting to look beter to me.

Spirit
09-10-2008, 07:08
Also, now think on it a bit more, US3 has nothing to do with raising, they are still infanty, non cavalry , non vampire and non ethereal and thus get raised d6 wounds like fell bats :/.

apbevan
09-10-2008, 15:55
yes but its really hard to choose bats swarms over fell bats.
If they had the same ST and Toughness or could fly 20 or were just a little cheaper they might have been worth it.

btw I love the feel of bat swarms over fell bats but because of the stats have not used them.

Spirit
10-10-2008, 01:46
3 bat swarms becoming 7 in a 1500 point game is one of the funniest things for undead. And no one expects it. (and thats with one lvl 2 mage)

apbevan
10-10-2008, 15:32
yes its a lot of wounds, 3x4=12 raised to 7x4=28 but they only move 10, and die just as easy as zombies... easier in fact because of no ranks.

Fell bats you can do they same with, 5x2=10 add in the same 16 wounds as above = 13 Fell bats that can actually go somewhere and do something in combat.

treben1234
11-10-2008, 05:32
I just checked the brb pg7. I think your right.

Lordsaradain
11-10-2008, 05:58
Bat swarms(and fell bats obviously) are unable to negate ranks, right?

skank
11-10-2008, 11:07
Yep, like all skirmishers they can't bust ranks.