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Ipeninrod
26-05-2008, 02:32
OK I have a match coming up in a few weeks against my old Empire Nemesis. We called it Quits after SOC but here we are again Ready to exchange Blows!

Things have changed a bit for me and Him.

I read the book. hmmm...

I threw out all old concepts. I mounted Black orc warboss placed him in a ranked up unit of plain boys. Gave him the 100pt Super Axe.

I Bought some Savage Infantry Gave them 2 weapons Big uns upgrade set the unint at 7 wide rank 2. no command except Standard Bearer with the Banner of Butchery.

Created a large normal Big Un unit with the Spirit totem for magic defence.

Specials 6 Savage orc boar boys no command. Lead by savage shaman with Wand of Kaloth and warpaint.

6 Chuckas
4 pump wagons.
Trying to figure out if I want a bsb and or another mage.

I've played since 5th so Orc tactics I have. They are just geared to 6th edition goblin horde tactics. I just dusted off me boys for a spell.

Lord Aries
26-05-2008, 02:38
Squigs.... get some, they are amazing. Both the herds and the hoppers.

klinktastic
26-05-2008, 04:00
just keep the dust on them...or sell them on ebay and start investing in a decent army....

Gorbad_NZ
26-05-2008, 04:16
I'd maybe find some points for a giant. You're gonna need something scary to keep his shooting away from those savage orcs

Ward.
26-05-2008, 04:40
just keep the dust on them...or sell them on ebay and start investing in a decent army....

QFH



It's going to be an uphill battle, especially against the empire as they have a large number of units that can take advantage of the orcs and goblins biggest weaknesses.

Braad
26-05-2008, 08:24
Savage orcs cannot take a magic banner IIRC.

Lord Khabal
26-05-2008, 08:48
1 mage and no DMS? Even with 6 DD I'll put a caddy. Besides 1 mage won't cast any spells consistently, unless the oponent also has 1 mage and no scrolls. I would play with a BSB and give him the totem std on a big (25-30) boys uint. Big Uns are just too expensive. On the other hand you could upgrade the savage ones to Big Uns and keep the formation. And give them a musician.

woytek
26-05-2008, 10:18
Orcs in units of 25 should never be big'uns, way too expensive. If you do use them, field something like 12/13. Savage orcs cannot have a magic banner by the way.

Get a black orc BSB on boar and give him the spirit totem for extra mobility. Put him in a block of 23 orcs with shields and use the big'uns as support.

Drop the savage orc shaman. Either go without mages or get a goblin scroll caddy with chariot.

6 Savage orc boar boyz are very good, could also make these big'uns.

Ubercarp
26-05-2008, 13:43
I run a unit of 30 orcs with extra hand weapons. It's cheaper to include my battle standard bearer in this unit than to upgrade to big'uns. The size of this unit ensures that they can take missle fire and still give the extra dispell dice. My normal empire opponent uses a lot of magic so get as many dispell dice as possible. You might want to include a goblin shaman for the staff of sneaky stealing. The guy I play also uses the lore of death spell Doom and Darkness alot. If this is out there try to stop it. It will make leadership tests almost impossible.

Some wolf riders might help get behind his line and get his artillery. Avian has a great website with O&G tactics. Check it out if you have not already. I took his advice about arrer boyz and it has worked well for me. They got in a tower one game and managed to cause a unit of pistolers to flee with missle fire.

Jack of Blades
26-05-2008, 13:48
Four pump wagons? If you don't bring battle reports, I think I've got to kill myself. Ever since I discovered that you could actually make a battle report, I've wanted to see 4 Pump Wagons in action :D

Ipeninrod
26-05-2008, 14:42
Alright.
Blorc BSB Heavy Armor Mounted on Boar with Morks Spirit Totem.
Placed him in a unit of 28 orcs full command no upgrades.

Blorc General Same but in unit of 28 orcs full command no upgrades.

12 Savage Orc >Big Uns< Command no musician. Upgrade Extra Hand weapon. Banner of Butchery.
Savage Orcs can't take Banner but Big Uns can? Need a Lawyer on this one.

Savage Orc Shaman lv 2 Skull Wand and War Paint on Boar. In a unit of 5 Savage Orc Big Uns Boar Riders. Standard and Champ. Spear and shield upgrades.

6 Chuckers
4 Pump wagons

1 night goblin Shaman Staff of sneaky stealing or sorcery?

5 Wolf Riders bows and Musician
5 Wolf Riders bows and Musician

Anything else?

@klinktastic. No Thanks. I just took the dust off them. Plus its a buyers Market for O&G on EBay. Go troll somewhere else.

Storak
26-05-2008, 18:49
spiders. and then place a wood, so that it blocks part of LOS from the hill that he will place in his deployment zone. and advance your spiders through it.

Tuch
26-05-2008, 20:13
12 Savage Orc >Big Uns< Command no musician.

I'd rather have the musician for a tie breaker than a boss with one more attack.

W0lf
27-05-2008, 08:52
Didnt bother reading it all but if you want to 'power up' start by taking grimgor.

Of course many orc players are happy to call the orc book weak as they refuse to ultalise their best option.

Storak
27-05-2008, 13:50
I'd rather have the musician for a tie breaker than a boss with one more attack.

the rules are simple.

biguns --> musician is a must have. (basically true for all orc units, btw)
losing frenzy because of a tie and no musician sounds like a major disaster to me...

champion is a must, if you intent to join the unit with another char because of all kinds of challenge tricks.

the biggest advantage that biguns offer to the O&G army is, that they are the reason for the higher strength of orcish bosses!

Storak
27-05-2008, 13:52
Didnt bother reading it all but if you want to 'power up' start by taking grimgor.

Of course many orc players are happy to call the orc book weak as they refuse to ultalise their best option.

yes you are right! strong close combat generals on foot in expensive but badly protected units are clearly DOMINATING this game!

Grimgor has really nice stats and equipment. that he has to walk on foot and has to be placed in an expensive black orc units are part of his PRICE!

no responsible O&G player would place Grimgor with the black orcs (or take him on foot either) if he had an option NOT to do it!

sephiroth87
27-05-2008, 15:07
If you could put grimgor in a regular orc unit, no one would take any other general. However, putting a nearly 400 point character in a 300 point foot unit is just asking to get hit in the side. I used him in the 3500 point 'ard boyz tournament and he performed really well. In 2000 and 2250, I'm usually not as big of a fan.

As for the staff of sneaky stealin', I'd use it over the staff of sorcery. In most games, I'd rather have the sureness of dispel scrolls over anything else. I usually take a goblin shaman in a chariot with a dispel scroll.

The list looks ok, but you have some point heavy units that might not see much of a return in the game.

Mercules
27-05-2008, 17:01
just keep the dust on them...or sell them on ebay and start investing in a decent army....

I love these helpful comments. :rolleyes:

Avian
28-05-2008, 10:11
You don't have to put Grimgor in a Black Orc unit, you just can't put him in any other unit. If your opponent doesn't have much in the way of cannons or similar, he can happily run around on his own. ;)



Savage Orcs can't take Banner but Big Uns can? Need a Lawyer on this one.
Or you could just check the Savage Orcs entry in the army book and look for the magic standard option which isn't there. :p

Storak
28-05-2008, 12:17
You don't have to put Grimgor in a Black Orc unit, you just can't put him in any other unit. If your opponent doesn't have much in the way of cannons or similar, he can happily run around on his own. ;)

Avian is right, while you have to take a unit of black orcs when fielding Grimgor, he is not forced to join them but can move around on foot alone.

in the vast majority of situations, this is an extremely risky plan...

Ipeninrod
28-05-2008, 18:56
Thanks Guys Grimgor and me don't mix well. He is big and bad but points are needed elsewhere.

Shimmergloom
28-05-2008, 23:11
Didnt bother reading it all but if you want to 'power up' start by taking grimgor.

Of course many orc players are happy to call the orc book weak as they refuse to ultalise their best option.

That is just a purely ridiculous remark.

Relying on special characters to make your list usable does not make it balanced in the slightest or make it a good non-weak book in any way. A good army book is not dependent on special characters. And players of such book should not be forced to take a special character for a minimum of a Lord and Special choice for 440pts in order to compete with overpowered armies that come out later. The rest of the book should not be nerfed to hell and back just because Grimgor exists.

Gralph!?!
29-05-2008, 00:07
i personally think the orcs biggest strength is that thye have fairly good stats and a rather cheap to boot. you get essentially the same thing as an empire swordsman but with toughness and strength 4 (first round only) for an extra point but lose a point of weapon skill and initiative. yeah i would take that any day.

the big unit and warboss weilding the battle axe will actually be a rather nasty thing to fight but the main problem withthat is that he will die very easily and the army NEEDS its leadership where if you were to not take such pprotective goodness as the best boss at or other helpful items it would mean that your leadership 9 boss is rather redundant as he will then get squished by anything slightly combaty.

Shimmergloom
29-05-2008, 04:08
Empire also get detachments and no animosity and smaller base sizes. So it's a fair trade.

It's not a fair trade that goblin spearmen are only 1 pt cheaper than empire spearmen.

Embalmed
29-05-2008, 09:31
Empire also get detachments and no animosity and smaller base sizes. So it's a fair trade.


Empire infantry rules :D



It's not a fair trade that goblin spearmen are only 1 pt cheaper than empire spearmen.

But vanilla Goblins/NG are a only 60% of the cost. I for one would never dream of putting a spear on a goblin, it seems even more stupid than putting a spear on a skellie. Edit: In the case of regular gobbos I would certainly consider giving them a shield though.

Storak
29-05-2008, 12:28
i personally think the orcs biggest strength is that thye have fairly good stats and a rather cheap to boot. you get essentially the same thing as an empire swordsman but with toughness and strength 4 (first round only) for an extra point but lose a point of weapon skill and initiative. yeah i would take that any day.

the swordsmen comparison demonstrates a manin problem with the orcs:

the orcs will win the combat by abou half a wound. (slightly more if they had the charge, slightly less if they didn t)

http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calculations/orc_boyz.php

in any subsequent round of comabt, the two units wil perform IDENTICALLY!

while this may sound like a small advantage for the orcs, two important points haven t been factored in:

1. animosity (and the detachment rules to a lesser extend, as they require spent points..)

2. orc boys are considered to be the BEST unit in our army, while the swordmen (though being very solid infantry) are not vital at all to the empire army!

the orcs will win the combat only, when being supported (mostly char).

the main advantage that they enjoy over empire swordmen is T4 vs. shooting. and this advantage is contradicted by the strength of the empire weapons in a direct confrontaton between the two...

Shimmergloom
29-05-2008, 20:12
I wouldn't give goblins spears either. Because they are already overpriced and that just makes a bad situation worse.

Malorian
29-05-2008, 21:40
I don't know why people are saying animosity is a bad thing. Normally you will do nothing as many times as you run up, and then once a game you get to call a waagh and really get the jump on your opponent.

I always have trouble playing against orcs because they are so unpredicatable, and you never really know how far they can charge you from. Combine with sure things like black orcs that will auto-waagh and you can be in some trouble.

The main thing orc players need to do is have several plans. Orcs don't work like other armies where you have a single plan and try to follow it through the battle, you have to set your self up with several options so that you can go with whatever the dice give you.

Gralph!?!
29-05-2008, 21:59
the thing is though, does that calculater add in the effects of the unit champion? does it add in the effects of banners or other such things?
if i remember correctly, with a unit of 20 swords v 20 orcs with the same equipment each (choppas and shield v hand weapon and shields) then the empire strike first, hit 4 times, wound about 1-2 times with which the orcs will lose on average a single guy.

while the orcs will attack back, kill a single swordsmen with basic orcs then the champion (who is str 5 on the first turn) and then kills another, the empire lose combat by 2 as theyare then out numbered and have lost an extra guy.

so the way i see orcs, they are already powerful for there points as point for point who is better? a chaos warrior?, a good save, good weapon skill and the same strength and toughness, while the orc is half the cost at least and will have 4+ save and another orc for the same price, they are a good unit since you can take so many of the blighters, as sch it makes them really hard in big blocks as they are cheap. as regards to someone saying that theylose the banner, if that happens you hunt down the unit with another as you should have more than enough units to get revenge. with animosityif you are able to make sure some of your units will not be stupid by having a character (sdoesn't have to be black orc) and then call the waagh so you can achieve it on a roll of a 3+ then it means you will be getting some free movement on a critical turn.

Shimmergloom
29-05-2008, 22:11
Most of you obviously haven't read the orc book. Animosity 6 rolls mean you have to move toward the nearest enemy you can see or move straight forward.

So this often means wheeling in front of your own troops and screwing over your own battlelines.

The only way around this is to pack your troops together so tightly that you have to move forward before you can wield. Which solves that problem but then means you are packed so tightly that you can't manuevor your troops the way you want to.

So no, this is not an advantage.

Animosity should stay, but the troops pts cost should reflect this and the stupid rule where black orcs do D6 S5 hits to their units needs to be thrown out as does D6 wounds on a waaagh!

Gralph!?!
29-05-2008, 22:22
eh? i rarely have an issue with animosity like that as a smart person will move the unit as close as possible to an enemy unit (cautiously naturally) while also turning away from thescary thing that may be on the flank.

Malorian
30-05-2008, 01:00
If you are wheeling in front ofyour troops then that unit was hopelessly far on the flank.

Shimmergloom
30-05-2008, 02:44
Unless you are packed in tight, which means less regular room to move, then you can easily find youself wheeling in front of your own troops.

http://shimmergloom1.homestead.com/files/animosity1.jpg

Enemy parks a fast cav unit a few inches in front of your orcs. Goblins on the flank roll a 6, they have to more toward that fast cav unit. If they roll a 4, then that's about 1 inches up, 2 inch wheel and then 1 inch forward in front of your orcs.

As you can see in the 2nd picture.

http://shimmergloom1.homestead.com/files/animosity2.jpg

The orcs have now been blocked by the goblins. The goblins were by no means hopelessly far on the flank. In regular moves the goblins will now have to spend most of their movement wheeling back into line. If the goblins charge the spiders, then they will be blocking the orcs even more. And if the orcs charge the spiders, the spiders will of course flee and the orcs will find themselves wheeled out of postion and out of the battleline.

This is not a good thing. And this roll of 6 is suppose to be good. But it is just as often a bad thing than it is a good thing.

Voodoo Boyz
30-05-2008, 03:02
People are talking about Grimgore?

Screw him, you want Gorbad if you want a Special Character to power up your O&G Army.

Storak
30-05-2008, 05:18
the thing is though, does that calculater add in the effects of the unit champion? does it add in the effects of banners or other such things?
if i remember correctly, with a unit of 20 swords v 20 orcs with the same equipment each (choppas and shield v hand weapon and shields) then the empire strike first, hit 4 times, wound about 1-2 times with which the orcs will lose on average a single guy.


while the orcs will attack back, kill a single swordsmen with basic orcs then the champion (who is str 5 on the first turn) and then kills another, the empire lose combat by 2 as theyare then out numbered and have lost an extra guy.

the calculator does NOT take into account champions, as they complicate the situation.
when factoring in champions you have to factor in tactics (will he be targeted?) and random rolls (second round is very different when champion died during first...)

but this is NOT necessary at all! the result between the troops is as i reported above (about 0.5 wounds in favor of the orcs, slightly more IF they got the charge)
while the two strength 5 attacks from the orc champion might make a difference (though not always one extra wound: 4 to hit, 2 to wound, 6+ save..) he also costs an extra 5 points!

so when taking him into account, the swordsmen will start combat with one more soldier and will OUTNUMBER the orcs...

Gralph!?!
30-05-2008, 17:25
the empire effectivly get an extra attack while the orcs lose one but gain 2 at strength 5 which does make a differance, there characters in the boyz units is what makes the differance in a fight for normal orcs as other wise they are severly screwed against most things. (my group never target characters inside units, we challange for that)

Malorian
30-05-2008, 17:49
Unless you are packed in tight, which means less regular room to move, then you can easily find youself wheeling in front of your own troops.

http://shimmergloom1.homestead.com/files/animosity1.jpg

Enemy parks a fast cav unit a few inches in front of your orcs. Goblins on the flank roll a 6, they have to more toward that fast cav unit. If they roll a 4, then that's about 1 inches up, 2 inch wheel and then 1 inch forward in front of your orcs.

As you can see in the 2nd picture.

http://shimmergloom1.homestead.com/files/animosity2.jpg

The orcs have now been blocked by the goblins. The goblins were by no means hopelessly far on the flank. In regular moves the goblins will now have to spend most of their movement wheeling back into line. If the goblins charge the spiders, then they will be blocking the orcs even more. And if the orcs charge the spiders, the spiders will of course flee and the orcs will find themselves wheeled out of postion and out of the battleline.

This is not a good thing. And this roll of 6 is suppose to be good. But it is just as often a bad thing than it is a good thing.

I wouldn't say that they are blocked since they can still charge and get by easily. I also don't think that situation is very typical. I don't see why the spiders would be that close other than hoping you roll a 6 with the goblins and not with the orcs.

It would be way more common for the unit you are moving towards to be a lot further away (so you don't wheel in front as much) or that if the enemy unit was that close that it would be one that wouldn't be fleeing (as it's there to be in combat).

lparigi34
30-05-2008, 18:47
the empire effectivly get an extra attack while the orcs lose one but gain 2 at strength 5 which does make a differance, there characters in the boyz units is what makes the differance in a fight for normal orcs as other wise they are severly screwed against most things. (my group never target characters inside units, we challange for that)

Agreed, but that should be factored-in in the cost of the champion itself, simmilar troops with simmilar capabilities should be priced about the same.

Not that Orc champions upgrade is particularly cheap and even worst if the unit is BigUns

Shimmergloom
30-05-2008, 21:23
I wouldn't say that they are blocked since they can still charge and get by easily. I also don't think that situation is very typical. I don't see why the spiders would be that close other than hoping you roll a 6 with the goblins and not with the orcs.

It would be way more common for the unit you are moving towards to be a lot further away (so you don't wheel in front as much) or that if the enemy unit was that close that it would be one that wouldn't be fleeing (as it's there to be in combat).

If they charge then they are going to be wheeled at an angle presenting their flank to enemy units.

If they charge then they will also not be able to enemy in the way, since chargers can only wheel once and the orcs need to wheel just to make the charge as it is.

If the goblins charge then they will block the orcs even further.

The spiders are obviously there to march block and force you to charge them, while they flee and you've essentially wasted a movement phase with a 4" move instead of a 8" move. And if nothing else, every good general should know how horrible the animosity rules are and would want them there for expressly the situation where you roll a 6 and now have to wheel in front of your own units to move toward them.

If you aren't constantly wheeling, then you are either A) not playing the rules or B) are packing your units in really close or C) are spreading out so much that you are a dream to any WE, HE, Dwarf and DE player in the world.

Malorian
30-05-2008, 21:44
If any army charged marched blocking spiders "they are going to be wheeled at an angle presenting their flank to enemy units" so what's the difference?

For orcs and goblins you have to look at the bigger picture. It's not as simple as this demonstrations. As I said before, Orcs are about setting up several options and seeing which ones the dice favour rather than a single all binding plan. That's what makes them unique as an army and fun (for those that like randomness).

Heretic Burner
30-05-2008, 22:29
For orcs and goblins you have to look at the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is animosity is the single most devastating drawback in the entire game. "Setting up several options" is not a valid strategy for O&G, it doesn't even make much sense. O&G are the very worst army in the game as far as movement goes (by far the most important phase). They are the very worst army in the game for "setting up several options", no army in the game is less capable of positioning their units to maximum advantage.

Obviously an animosity roll of 1 is devastating. Against any opponent of even moderate skill a roll of 6 is also an absolutely horrible result. Why? Quite simply it means your opponent has just dictated your own movement. It is your opponent's positioning that determines the movement of O&G units and this absolutely wrecks the army.

The points costs don't even work out. Despite having by far the biggest disadvantage in the game, Empire swordsmen remain a much more effective unit choice than orc boyz - and orcs may very well be the best unit in the Greenskin army. To no surprise Empire can field a far more competitive army than O&G.

6th edition animosity was of course bad. However, the designers knew this and mitigated it through several options (greenskin magic, properly priced goblins, black orc area quelling, etc). The end result was a very well balanced army (in fact maybe the best balanced army) despite having the very worst disadvantage in the game.

Sadly 7th edition animosity was made even worse while the ability to mitigate the problem was also diminished. The end result? Yup, the very worst performing army in the game. I still don't follow the logic.

Gralph!?!
30-05-2008, 23:35
"Sadly 7th edition animosity was made even worse while the ability to mitigate the problem was also diminished. The end result? Yup, the very worst performing army in the game. I still don't follow the logic."

thats the issue, there is NO logic behind the army, only the ability to constantly change your battle plans until they work, so you have to be aware of what is going to happen and have back up plans viable in order to do well, then play style comes into it as well as army compasition and tactics. a couple of sneaky tricks are also a few things to keep your opponents off balance by worring about such things. the prime way the orcs work is by making the opponent worry about multiple things and animosity doesn't help them when they suddenly run faster, that unpredictablity and the fact the entire army macks no sense is what makes them powerful on a whole.

i am just wondering how alot of these naysayers on this thread would perform while using an orc army against some other armies that are out there. i have the feeling it would go badly then they will blame animosity and such despite being a bad general with orcs (it is difficult controlling the lads though).

so anyone here want to take on the gauntlet? fight against a tournament style army, maybe even the highelf or something that won the GT last year with an orc army based around things being cheap and see how well you would do. so anyone want to try it?

sephiroth87
30-05-2008, 23:50
As far as wheeling over your own units during animosity goes, that's why you put chariots or squig hoppers around them and a little space in between all three units (chariot or squigs and 2 orc units). If an opponent decides to perform a little trickery to try to take advantage of the animosity, whack them with the chariot or squigs every time until they don't try it anymore. Any opponent who sticks a unit close to me within my orcs' line of sight to try to take advantage of a 1 in 6 chance to screw me, I'm usually going to overcome unless they're very lucky.

Another orc thread going down in flames and I'm tired of reading the same junk from the same people...

If the original poster wants constructive help on how to make a solid list or on tactics, they can pm me and I'll be happy to help.

Heretic Burner
31-05-2008, 00:56
so anyone here want to take on the gauntlet? fight against a tournament style army, maybe even the highelf or something that won the GT last year with an orc army based around things being cheap and see how well you would do. so anyone want to try it?

I'm not sure what you mean. Many of us players own multiple armies and are able to have direct comparisons between armies with O&G. There is no question in my mind Empire are a far stronger army (and statistical evidence backs me up on this). And yes, every single army in the game can "constantly change" battle plans just as well, they just don't have to deal with animosity making their ability to place their units significantly more effective.

I'm not sure what you mean by an army based around things being cheap - elite armies have absolutely been dominating standings lately. If you mean by pure horde than those armies tend to fail spectacularly against even moderately experienced players. They have been tried, your guantlet has already been taken up, and the results are predictable - it just doesn't work.

Ipeninrod
31-05-2008, 04:13
Thanks Seph. The crew here are pasionate about there orc boyz. I picked up some of the basics. Avians documents helped as well with one exception. Pump wagons are by far still my fav rare!