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Son of Makuta
27-05-2008, 11:07
In my planned Chaos army, I have a character called Onyx, Chaos Lord and second-in-command of the Phantoms. As second-in-command and with considerable daemonic gifts, he has the honour of joining the 1st Company of Daemonkin, warriors who have taken on so many daemonic gifts or been possessed so that they are almost daemons. Wielding a daemonsword called Ixratheus, Subtle Bringer of Agony, he is nigh invincible, the life essence absorbed by the blade making him superhuman even by Chaos Marine standards. A mind-impulse (MIU) linked weapon system is mounted on his shoulder, spitting energised bolts at his foes. Dark wings spread from his back as he leads his legions into battle.

The point of this? Well, I want to use the daemon army rules to represent this 1st Company, and Onyx had to be in it. Ixratheus makes him super-powerful, so I needed something tough. So it was either a Herald of Khorne on a chariot, or a Daemon Prince.

Herald + Chariot: 85 points
- furious charge, power weapon
- 100 points with MIU (death strike)
Daemon Prince + Iron Hide: 110 points
- monstrous creature
- 190 points with wings & MIU (daemonic gaze)

What? A 90 point difference for +1 WS, +2 BS and wings, and no furious charge?
Let's compare the Chaos Marine DP...

Normal Chaos DP: 110 points
- monstrous creature
- 140 points with wings & MIU (doombolt)

50 points cheaper and +1 Strength, the only offsetting disadvantage being the (Ld10) psychic test for him to fire the MIU.

This I do not understand. There must be some reason why wings cost 60 (!) points for a Daemon DP and only 20 for a CSM one. Even Hive Tyrants only pay 40 points for their wings. Skarbrand, the wingless Bloodthirster, only costs 50 points more than a normal Bloodthirster despite having Fleet, Burning Hatred, Instrument of Chaos and Breath of Chaos (worth 35 points between them, as upgrades), +1 Strength and +1 Attack over the normal 'thirster. (I love Skarbrand :D)

Another, albeit smaller, discrepancy is in the Flesh Hounds. A Flesh Hound costs exactly half what a Fiend of Slaanesh costs. On the defence, a pair of Hounds and the Fiend are identical: two un-instakillable T4 wounds, 5+ invulnerable. Hounds do have a 2+ save against psychic stuff, but that's situational, and it's offset by their slightly increased vulnerability to blasts (due to higher numbers).

On the charge, the two are almost identical. 6 attacks at S5, I5 and WS4. However, the Fiend benefits from Rending, not to mention Hit and Run. In subsequent rounds the Hounds suffer. 4 attacks at S4 and I4 versus the Fiend's five S5 I5 rending attacks.

Unless I've missed something, I don't understand this at all... IMO Flesh Hounds should be about 13 points here.

Many of the upgrades also seem overly expensive. Bolt of Tzeentch 30-35 points? It's a 24" meltagun without melta... S6 on a daemon prince for 20 points? Rending on a Khorne Herald (who has a power weapon) for 10 points? (In 5th ed rending is on the to-wound roll, so it won't do anything at all for him except give him +D3 penetration on a vehicle should he roll a six.)

Don't get me wrong, I love the codex. The army itself is great. I just think some of the points costs are a little bit overinflated (or a big bit, in the case of DP wings :eyebrows:) and wanted to raise a few points and see if anyone could explain any of them.

Thanks for reading. :)

Xenobane
27-05-2008, 11:17
I know nothing about Codex Daemons, but is it that odd? Unit costs are balanced internally within a codex (theoretically), and the codeci balanced against each other.One unit will be worth more to one army than another, so one army might pay more. Witness the varying cost of the same weapon across different armies.

dark blade
27-05-2008, 11:21
for the 60 point wings,
1) you can have 3 deamon princes and they are very powerfull with wings. In the chaos we can only have 2. a Chaos DP is good for its points and if you let an army take a lot of things that are good for there points then it would be considered broken. so they upped the points of taking the wings to keep the DP fair.
2) the DP is still undercosted in the chaos codex for what it can do really.
3) in the deamons codex you have a lot of things that are hard to kill off, there fore they have to be more expencive points wise, the chaos marines doe have that many things that are tough in this way (IE can survive a las cannon hit 1 out of 3 times becouse of a save) and so the DP for chaos filles a very specific role and can get away with being cheaper becouse of this.
4) our dp with wings has to walk it acros the bord. your deepstrikes. that means that with the wings as well you will be EXACTLY where you want to be almost immedealty and that is worth the points hike.,

njfed
27-05-2008, 12:21
our dp with wings has to walk it acros the bord. your deepstrikes. that means that with the wings as well you will be EXACTLY where you want to be almost immedealty and that is worth the points hike.,

BINGO! This right here is the main factor. Which is why I can't understand why you would want to put wings on a creature that can DS. Save the points and buy more troops.

Norsehawk
27-05-2008, 13:49
It is balanced with the codex since:

In a chaos marines force, you can have 2 daemon princes, and that's all your hq slots used up.

In chaos daemons, you can have 3 daemon princes, and 2 greater daemons, or 1 greater daemon plus 2 heralds, or 4 heralds.

Fluff wise, daemon princes are somewhat looked down upon by the 'real' daemons since the 'real' daemons were never weak mortals.

==Me==
27-05-2008, 13:50
As others have said before, the points cost reflect the internal balance within the Codex. Deep Striking is huge, almost to the point where you don't need wings (especially if you tie the enemy down with stuff like Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, or anything fast). You can get up to 3 DPs in Heavy Support, if they costed as little as the CSM version, Daemons would never go without 3 for a fraction of what they would cost normally.

The DP is also faster than the Herald, takes up a Heavy slot (Daemons have lots of awesome HQs but only 2 awesome Heavy Support), and has a much better ranged weapon. I prefer Khorne Heralds on juggers to benefit from IC status, T5 is a bit flimsy.

Raven1
27-05-2008, 14:55
Just to let the OP know you cannot write actual points costs in the rules of warseerand is a breach of GW's IP.

on topic points costs are internal balances within the codex.

max the dog
27-05-2008, 15:30
Everyone always thinks that their armies are overcosted. I'm of the opinion that the Daemons are undercosted. The daemonetes for example are way too cheap. While it may be true that they can't shoot back only 3 or 4 survivors have the ability to easily waste a squad of marines once in close combat. Their high initiative, high number of attacks and rending make them one of the most dangerous units in the game but at less points than a standard space marine.
I believe the reason they're so cheap in comparison is the fact that rending is going to get nerfed. In 4th edition they're too powerful but in 5th edition things will balance out. the opposite could be true of the daemon prince (too expensive now but just right later).

senorcardgage
27-05-2008, 15:47
The opposite could be true of the daemon prince (too expensive now but just right later).

What new rules are going to make the daemon princes better?? (I'm rusty on the rumours)

Son of Makuta
27-05-2008, 19:46
BINGO! This right here is the main factor. Which is why I can't understand why you would want to put wings on a creature that can DS. Save the points and buy more troops.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's going to be in the enemy's face anyway. Being winged might allow you to place it differently from non-winged, so you can hide from the guns behind terrain and it can still get to the enemy next turn, but that's so unlikely to come off (due to the scatter roll) that you'd never get it to work properly. When you do roll a hit, the enemy'll most likely just walk around and blast you anyway. Other than that, wings provide no benefit besides looking awesome.


(Daemons have lots of awesome HQs but only 2 awesome Heavy Support)

Uh, they only have two Heavy Support. Both of them are indeed awesome, mind. :D

Still - the disparity is rather vexing. Basically: :wtf:

senorcardgage
27-05-2008, 20:04
I usually run a winged demon prince with my CSM army that costs 140 points. I was quite dismayed to learn that that same demon prince costs like 205 points in the CSD army...

Aeneas
27-05-2008, 22:36
I think it has to do with the fact that in a daemon army you could have two winged greater daemons and three winged daemon princes: five winged monstrous creatures in one army.

The Chaos Space Marine army can only have two as the summoned greater daemon can't have wings.

The extra points for the daemon army daemon prince wings is a premium paid for having such monstrous mobility

Xandros
28-05-2008, 00:43
You're comparing HQ and HS, FA and Elites, which is daft. FOC slots are not equal.

Torga_DW
28-05-2008, 01:12
I would take a daemon prince, for the cool factor. This is the guy, fresh from the warp battling hellish spawn and returned to help his minions.

Znail
28-05-2008, 01:15
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's going to be in the enemy's face anyway. Being winged might allow you to place it differently from non-winged, so you can hide from the guns behind terrain and it can still get to the enemy next turn, but that's so unlikely to come off (due to the scatter roll) that you'd never get it to work properly. When you do roll a hit, the enemy'll most likely just walk around and blast you anyway. Other than that, wings provide no benefit besides looking awesome.



Uh, they only have two Heavy Support. Both of them are indeed awesome, mind. :D

Still - the disparity is rather vexing. Basically: :wtf:
This post makes it pretty clear. And the simple truth is that its not worth 60 points for wings so you are much better of to remove any wings on your models to save points. This is equaly silly to an upgrade being too cheap and thus bought every time. I think the cost for the CSM DP is too cheap thou, in the middle is probobly best. But the odds of GW actualy changing this before the next codex is somewhere between zero and null.

I also find the concept that using the exact cost of an upgrade in a balance discussion would somehow hurt GWs IP rather absurd. But if its Warseers policy then it needs to be followed.