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View Full Version : Landraiders reborn in 5th ed?



Latro_
27-05-2008, 15:38
Ok so i'm thinking after a read of the 5th ed rules and a couple of test games that tanks are back and back hard.

The new damage table is very very forgiving
The cover save and smoke save of 4+ is sick
The effect on damage to the troops inside near on gone.

Land raiders have become cheaper and with the fact any CC attacks against vehicles hit the rear, in this vain they have a big advantage over other vehicles (less monos).

From what used to be a 250pt points sink that could be killed quite easily. It is now a super hard, reliable cheaper troops transport.

consider:


1. Shaken
2. Stunned
3. Weapon destroyed
4 Vehicle immobilised
5 Wrecked
6 Vehicle explodes d6 inches, Strength 3 ap- hit.

Glancing is -2, Ap1 is +1. AP- is -1.


this menas that the likes of most S8 weapons, krak missiles, ork rokkits etc... CANNOT kill your raider. At best immobilise it. (unless they do the whole immobile, and all weps gone or VV)

Mix in some smoke to get a 4+ save against hits, bit of cover here and there.

I'v ordered 2 for my world eaters army already.

max the dog
27-05-2008, 15:49
Don't forget that nid venom cannon's and rending genestealers are helpless against it. The only thing we've got that can effectively deal with it is a CC carni.

Of course the Tau should be able to handle it as well or better than before.

senorcardgage
27-05-2008, 15:52
In my opinion they aren't getting cheaper. The Chaos ones cost less, but I believe the loss of 'infernal device' more than makes up for the cheaper cost.

Latro_
27-05-2008, 16:29
Don't forget that nid venom cannon's and rending genestealers are helpless against it. The only thing we've got that can effectively deal with it is a CC carni.

Of course the Tau should be able to handle it as well or better than before.

Or warp blasts from ZT's?

Lordsaradain
27-05-2008, 16:39
Yes!!! Now I wont see my LR destroyed by rokkits or battle cannons turn 1. And no more fear of genestealers! Too bad asscannons can still potentially rape a land raider. :)

Tonberry
27-05-2008, 16:40
Well, the Heavybolter will no longer be a defensive weapon, which is one nerf. True LoS is also interesting for these giant bricks, as they can be very effective screens now.

jfrazell
27-05-2008, 16:52
The LR Crusader remains a nice hammer with the S4 defensive rule.

Latro_
27-05-2008, 21:22
haha just thought, even the new ramming rules are LR friendly
A 12" charge from one of these bad boys is a S9 hit

So plough into a nearby tank, bang s9 hit.
Your guys jump out 2.9" and assault who they like within 6".

'LR Ram Raid'

ReveredChaplainDrake
27-05-2008, 21:40
Or warp blasts from ZT's?

Big point of difference: Warp Blasts are AP2. Railguns are AP1. Also, Tau have Melta weapons. (That can JSJ, no less.) Tyranids do not. Really peeves me off as Warp Blasts fired as a template weapon in 5th ed are now absurdly bad.

But anyway, my Possessed Land Raider is going to be getting some serious mileage next edition. Immunity to Shakes and Stuns makes 2/3 of all glances utterly useless, and cover will not downgrade to glances anymore, but will be a flat cover save!

Ravenous
27-05-2008, 21:52
Of course the Tau should be able to handle it as well or better than before.

Not true, with a 4+ save half of the rail guns hitting will be ignored, and then you throw in the fact that you will need to roll a 5+ in order to kill it as easy as now.

Ap1 no longer insta-pens.


In my opinion they aren't getting cheaper. The Chaos ones cost less, but I believe the loss of 'infernal device' more than makes up for the cheaper cost.

True but the new marine dex might be going down the same road and ditch the machine spirit since the land raider is going to be an unstoppable behemoth.

Man I feel sorry for guard and tau, they will be helpless as a raider comes barrelling at them. But then again, we are assuming that the "assault ramp" rule is still in the 5th ed book.

Oberon
27-05-2008, 22:15
well, if you can't beat them, join them. Guard can take land raiders, and it doesn't even cost that much extra. Plus you get the nifty specia abilities of the inquisition. 26pts for min. sized Inq and his retinue, and then the LR on top of that, but of course you want the first turn playing cards or deployment zone-book for him too. And what was that talk about being able to transport any unit in "dedicated" transport, not just the squad that bought the tank?

My LR will get some tabletop-time, transporting some grey knights, in my WH army...

Lordsaradain
27-05-2008, 22:30
Land Raiders should be the Tank of Tanks, it was lame in the 4th Ed when they could be destroyed by mere genestealers, or a lucky rokkit hit turn 1 etc...

Latro_
27-05-2008, 23:09
Man I feel sorry for guard and tau, they will be helpless as a raider comes barrelling at them. But then again, we are assuming that the "assault ramp" rule is still in the 5th ed book.

:P not a problem for chaos LR's, that special rule is written into the codex entry.

Raven1
28-05-2008, 01:33
I never thought about that, I jsut might have to figure out a way to stick on in my list. I always liked LR's
Give it possession and you are good to go, on a glancing hit one half of rolls are ignores. (considering the -2 ofcourse meaning rolling 1 through 4 is ignored)

I love it!

Ravenous
28-05-2008, 01:37
I never thought about that, I jsut might have to figure out a way to stick on in my list. I always liked LR's
Give it possession and you are good to go, on a glancing hit one half of rolls are ignores. (considering the -2 ofcourse meaning rolling 1 through 4 is ignored)

I love it!

Then use smoke launchers in the same turn, you ignore half the shots that do anything, they you ignore half the shots that actually get in.

Super Ninja
28-05-2008, 01:44
[QUOTE=Oberon;2649889]well, if you can't beat them, join them. Guard can take land raiders, and it doesn't even cost that much extra. Plus you get the nifty specia abilities of the inquisition. 26pts for min. sized Inq and his retinue, and then the LR on top of that, but of course you want the first turn playing cards or deployment zone-book for him too. And what was that talk about being able to transport any unit in "dedicated" transport, not just the squad that bought the tank?

My LR will get some tabletop-time, transporting some grey knights, in my WH army...[/QUOTE/]

Oh yeah? I never realized that. I'll have to tell my IG friend about that.

weissengel86
28-05-2008, 02:28
if land raiders are to become behemoths then monoliths with their living metal rule will be literally unstoppable

Ravenous
28-05-2008, 02:43
if land raiders are to become behemoths then monoliths with their living metal rule will be literally unstoppable

The only problem with monoliths is they will have to work alot harder to get that 4+ cover save (via hiding behind cover).

But yeah, the monolith ignoring meltaguns (the best anti tank weapon in 5th edition) and lances makes it pretty much on par if not a tad better then the landraider.

Raven1
28-05-2008, 03:00
The only problem with monoliths is they will have to work alot harder to get that 4+ cover save (via hiding behind cover).

But yeah, the monolith ignoring meltaguns (the best anti tank weapon in 5th edition) and lances makes it pretty much on par if not a tad better then the landraider.

I think a good monolith breaker will be ordinance pieplate. OR should I rephrase to something that will actually work. A LR Destoryer or whatever or the vindicators have str 10 wpns, the range is a problem but you wont be able to go in unprocted and flanked by friendly troops.

PotatoLegs
28-05-2008, 03:12
What, the Leman Russ Demolisher? Sporting the Demolisher Cannon?

Raven1
28-05-2008, 03:46
What, the Leman Russ Demolisher? Sporting the Demolisher Cannon?

yeah, that's the one. now sush up, you know it all. :)

the str 10wpn still does have good chance at killing it.

to keep it on topic, a pair of vindicators lead by a land raider would do some damage.

PotatoLegs
28-05-2008, 04:14
:p

What about two landraiders with a wee vindicator nestled between them?

I may do that with the models I actually have in a game large enough, just for the sheer over-kill factor of it

Eternal Marine
28-05-2008, 04:26
Is the Land Raider going to be cheaper in 5th Ed? I have not heard this one yet. I already use one (Crusaider) for my Black Templars and will be using one for my Space Wolves. Seems to me with all the changes that the IG will no longer be the tank heavy force it used to be, hell my IG are going to have TONS of Lascannons for 5th ed!!!

Lisiecki
28-05-2008, 06:09
Nope, sorry, no Allied HS choices for you


well, if you can't beat them, join them. Guard can take land raiders, and it doesn't even cost that much extra. Plus you get the nifty specia abilities of the inquisition. 26pts for min. sized Inq and his retinue, and then the LR on top of that, but of course you want the first turn playing cards or deployment zone-book for him too. And what was that talk about being able to transport any unit in "dedicated" transport, not just the squad that bought the tank?

My LR will get some tabletop-time, transporting some grey knights, in my WH army...

cuda1179
28-05-2008, 06:11
It's not a heavy support choice. It is an elites choice. The Inquisitor can have a Land Raider As his own personal pimp-wagon.

Lisiecki
30-05-2008, 06:09
Really

His LR dosn't count as a HS choice?
that raises interesting possibilitys



It's not a heavy support choice. It is an elites choice. The Inquisitor can have a Land Raider As his own personal pimp-wagon.

Ravenous
30-05-2008, 06:11
Really

His LR dosn't count as a HS choice?
that raises interesting possibilitys

Yep it counts as a dedicated transport for your HQ or Elite inquisitor unit.

And it just so happens in 5th that anyone can ride in a empty dedicated transport, so just leave the inquisitors and mystics sitting back (waiting for daemons to drop by of course) while you plow a unit of grey knights or entirely flamer wielding last chancers at your enemy.

Clang
30-05-2008, 07:04
so the games tables will be full of almost invulnerable LRs driving around playing turkey shoot? Yawn. I don't see that as a good thing at all, unless the points cost will be increased to maybe 500 (which they obviously won't, given the newish Chaos codex). An invulnerable model is a boring model.

Eternal Marine
30-05-2008, 07:18
so the games tables will be full of almost invulnerable LRs driving around playing turkey shoot? Yawn. I don't see that as a good thing at all, unless the points cost will be increased to maybe 500 (which they obviously won't, given the newish Chaos codex). An invulnerable model is a boring model.

Don't really see how you'd get more then 2...MAYBE 3 as that would be HALF your army (at it's current point cost). Besides I always seem to loose mine to a lucky shot on the 1st or 2nd turn. Granted that STR 8 weapons won't get lucky shots anymore, I just think that there will now be a ton of melta weapons all over the place (and they can get in a lucky shot due to AP 1).

I also still think that the Monolith is the be all end all of Vehicles in 40K.

Lisiecki
30-05-2008, 07:19
Actually my idea has more to do with Space Wolves, but simmiler over all i think...
those long fangs dont need a ride after all...


Yep it counts as a dedicated transport for your HQ or Elite inquisitor unit.

And it just so happens in 5th that anyone can ride in a empty dedicated transport, so just leave the inquisitors and mystics sitting back (waiting for daemons to drop by of course) while you plow a unit of grey knights or entirely flamer wielding last chancers at your enemy.

Neknoh
30-05-2008, 07:22
Mmmmm, Inquisitorial Land Raider.... ĄdroolsĄ

Dominion Squad in Land Raider, jumps out, launches 5 Flamer Templates... mmm... crispy

Griffin
30-05-2008, 07:39
Hmmm, Black legion Land Raider with Terminators inside....... Damn that's gonna be hard.

The_Dragon_Rising
30-05-2008, 07:48
But yeah, the monolith ignoring meltaguns

Not quite. No extra pen due to living metal and str 8 means it can only glance but meltas are Ap1 which is +1 for a net -1 so a 6 will = a 5 and still a wrecked result.

Royal Tiger
30-05-2008, 12:07
the basic Land raider is not going to be reborn with 5th edition, its still useless as a transport and a gun platform, its a jack of all trades that is STILL useless at all of them

sure it can get a 4+ cover save in cover, however that now makes its transport ability pointless
hell why not advance with the cargo, I'm harder to kill.....oh wait now my guns are buggered

its the same as 4th for the Land raider, and its still a massive waste of points

Doomseer
30-05-2008, 12:47
There's really gonna be some whining about 'lucky shots' in 5th then! Even S10 is going to require a fluke to bring one down! Tissues at the ready!!

Satone
30-05-2008, 13:05
Land Raiders should only be used in apocalypse "coughSARCASMcough". I see Land Raiders be very useful in 5th especially with the supposed rule of being able to have different units use them a stransports if they are empty. Take for example a LR dropping off a terminator squad on an objective (i know troops score only, but let me get to my point) swiftly followed by said LR dropping off PMs for examle who are scoring, try removing that from an objective. This all assumes of course the LR survives, but so far mine hasnt even been scratched so all is well

Eldanar
30-05-2008, 13:43
Don't get too overly excited about LR's. True, the effectiveness/survivability against most armies goes up significantly; but Eldar and Dark Eldar will still be able to make swiss cheese out of them.

Cypher
30-05-2008, 16:57
Meh - I see Eldar becoming far less common in 5th Ed.

And yeah, I agree that LRs are going to be better off under 5th Ed. The Crusader is one of the few vehicles that isnt at all impacted by the S4 defensive rule.

Latro_
30-05-2008, 17:31
The game i played the other day with with 5th ed rules, my mate's predators and razor backs stood out a great deal as being harder to stop. I might try a tester game over the weekend with my 2LR khorne list to see what happens.

Eldanar
30-05-2008, 19:35
Meh - I see Eldar becoming far less common in 5th Ed.



Mech Eldar - yes.

But foot Eldar are a whole different matter.

The_Outsider
31-05-2008, 00:04
Not quite. No extra pen due to living metal and str 8 means it can only glance but meltas are Ap1 which is +1 for a net -1 so a 6 will = a 5 and still a wrecked result.

If you immobilise the monolith it just floats to the ground and stays there.

Meh, its not LR's themselves that are getting better per se, the core rules are changing to make AV14 (and 13 to be fair) far more resilient.

The LR for example doesn't change from what it does and how it works now, it just lives longer (not like its actually fragile now, but warseer claims anything can take out a LR thus it must be true).

The LR wil lstil lbe overcosted - this is a fact you cannot escape simply because its a high AV, lascannon, TLHB, terminator transporting wagon of DEATH.

The downside is its getting all the best gear in any given area which gimps it overall because it has to pay a premium. So no, the LR won't be any more awesome than it is now, it just means its most important feature is machine spirit, the tank itself will still be overcosted.

Eat it warseer.

Necrotyr18
31-05-2008, 03:09
And yeah, I agree that LRs are going to be better off under 5th Ed. The Crusader is one of the few vehicles that isnt at all impacted by the S4 defensive rule.

Keep in mind that this doesn't affect the Monolith either. As it could only shoot one of it's 2 weapons a turn anyway.

The_Dragon_Rising
31-05-2008, 08:10
If you immobilise the monolith it just floats to the ground and stays there.


Yes- but going on the first post 4= immobilise. 5= wrecked which i assume still kills it.

Mitheral
31-05-2008, 17:10
Yes- but going on the first post 4= immobilise. 5= wrecked which i assume still kills it.

No. Additional immobilize results count as weapon destroyed until all weapons are destroyed. Which means seven weapon destroyed results and an immobilize are needed before an immobilize result gets you a destroyed.

The_Outsider
31-05-2008, 18:01
No. Additional immobilize results count as weapon destroyed until all weapons are destroyed. Which means seven weapon destroyed results and an immobilize are needed before an immobilize result gets you a destroyed.

Fun fact: Nowhere does it say you can actually destroy the gauss flux arc, you merely keep getting -1 to its shots (so you get minus a billion and it would still be there).

To stop a monolith you actually have to roll a destroyed on the damage chart.

Mitheral
31-05-2008, 18:11
Sure, by RaW. If you want to keep getting opponents you probably want to go with -6 = destroyed though.

Same thing with the particle whip (it actually says that it can't be destroyed). I figure after you've reduced the arc to -6 and the next weapon destroyed result should count as destroying the whip only for the purposes of escalation on the damage chart. IE: the next weapon destroyed immobilizes and if already immobilized counts as monolith destroyed. However until the mono is destroyed I can still fire the whip.

Never had that happen though so it's not really that generous of an offer.

The_Outsider
31-05-2008, 18:19
Sure, by RaW. If you want to keep getting opponents you probably want to go with -6 = destroyed though.



'Round these parts people accept that you cannot use accumlative damage to kill a monolith because those are the rules.

Has nothing to do with bending the rules to suit ones own nefarious wishes.