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Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 11:07
Okay, from what i have seen so far, there are some rules, that don't exactly seem to make sense, unless you imply, that GW just included them to sell more stuff:

A. Kill points. If you ever want to field certain kinds of units (like Raveners), you certainly won't be able to field them in small numbers. Either you take a lot of them, or you don't take any at all, because they give KP way to easily. Gone are the days of "i have 40 points left, so i take a single Ravener". I think that lists will become more bland and less diverse because of this. Less different units, but more of the same.

B. Only official bases allowed. So if you want to play in official tournaments, you better buy two sets of Daemons, one with round bases, one with square ones...

C. Only Troops are scoring: You need a lot of Troops, because those usually are more fragile than the rest of the army. So you need more to compensate for this.

D. True line of sight. Laser marker...

What do you think?

bassmasterliam
28-05-2008, 11:11
I think the overall aim for GW is to make money so i guess yes it is all about the money and customers buying more stuff.

Komnenos
28-05-2008, 11:11
Another ploy by the evil empire to make money has been uncovered!

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 11:13
Well, i don't care if GW tries to make money, but A, B and D IMHO are harmful for the game and should not be there. So i have a problem, when the overal quality of the product declines because of business decisions.

Melchor
28-05-2008, 11:15
*GASP* GW tries to make money? How dare they!

tsutek
28-05-2008, 11:16
You forgot the buildings. If one is going to need two versions of intact buildings (one 'intact' and one 'ruined'), that's going to sell a few more building sets as well..

EarlGrey
28-05-2008, 11:17
A. Kill points. If you ever want to field certain kinds of units (like Raveners), you certainly won't be able to field them in small numbers. Either you take a lot of them, or you don't take any at all, because they give KP way to easily. Gone are the days of "i have 40 points left, so i take a single Ravener". I think that lists will become more bland and less diverse because of this. Less different units, but more of the same.


Only 1 out or 3 missions uses Kill points, and they apparently work quite well.
I doubt it will really make much difference. There will be more troops, but that's a good thing in my opinion (balancing).



B. Only official bases allowed. So if you want to play in official tournaments, you better buy two sets of Daemons, one with round bases, one with square ones...


Where does it say that? I thought this rumour was debunked.



C. Only Troops are scoring: You need a lot of Troops, because those usually are more fragile than the rest of the army. So you need more to compensate for this.


I see this as more of a balancing issue. Prevents people taking minimum Troops and maxing out on Heavy Support and such.



D. True line of sight. Laser marker...


It's not required, and it's pretty cheap.



What do you think?

Cynical?

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 11:17
Well, i don't care about the buildings, because that probably has a positive effect on the game.

MistaGav
28-05-2008, 11:18
The new 5th edition in general is going to be a ploy to make more money simple as.

New Rulebook
New Boxed Set
Apocalypse reload
New SM Codex
New SM stuff
New Apoc Stuff
Not to mention all the other small bits and bobs they release alongside

I know for me that July will be an expensive month...

Melchor
28-05-2008, 11:19
Everyone seems to know EXACTLY how everything is going to work in 5th edition. Did I miss the secret pre-release or something?
Either way, I'm going to postpone my judgement until I have a few games of 5th under my belt instead of crying on the internets that '5th = teh suxx0rz!!!1~1!'.

Slaaaaaanesh
28-05-2008, 11:23
C. Only Troops are scoring: You need a lot of Troops, because those usually are more fragile than the rest of the army. So you need more to compensate for this.


I don't think that this is much of an issue, most 40k collectors have 3-5 squads troop selections for each of their armies. And in a standard 2K point battle you won't really be using much more than that.

It's only a 'problem' when it comes to apocalypse games, but then people are willing to pay 120 for two baneblades so the equivalent is six more troop units at 18 each isin't much to moan about.

Killgore
28-05-2008, 11:27
regarding the troops choice thing

i think personaly that its the fault of the gamer if they have to buy more troop choices for their army, i only use the minimal of two troop choices if i'm doing something wacky like using 10 man wraithguard units or small point battles, most other games i have 4-5 troop choices with another couple in my carry case for apoc games

Whitehorn
28-05-2008, 11:33
If you honestly thought GW wasn't a company trying to make money, shoot yourself before someone makes you president.

If you don't like the new rules, don't play them.

'The evil Empire' that you have no obligation to give any money to.

Too long has the game been about the characters. I welcome the emphasis being shifted more towards the troops =)

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 11:38
I think some people are missing the point here...

x-esiv-4c
28-05-2008, 11:48
Of course GW wants to make money, it's a business but it's questionable whether it should come at the price of game quality.

In 5th we have to buy a laser pointer (sure as hell not getting the GW one) because of the LOS rule.

In 6th edition will we have to buy a wangflangler doohickymowhatsit to keep count of our meeplesniffs? Probably.

Whitehorn
28-05-2008, 12:01
'We have to buy..'

No, you don't.

Get it yet?

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 12:09
So your opinion is basically this:

My car now has to use a new type of fuel, that is more expensive AND makes the car move slower, just because the oil company wants to make money.

So your reaction is: "Don't complain, drive a different car."

Perfect customer...

Nexto
28-05-2008, 12:14
If gw really made the rules the way they are to generate money, they made a very, very poor job.

Imagine yourself as a greedy gamedesigner, what would u do?

Making troops better? Hell no, they are some of the cheapest options anyway, u get enough troops for 5th edition with just buying 2-3 boxes and also, most players already have these boxes. You better make big bike squadrons and elite units much more powerful! Remember: 4 Bikes cost nearly as much as a full troops box! With elites, its even worse. Additionally, transports can be used by nearly every unit, the have low detail and can be, i assume, produced quite cheap. So reintroduce the rhino rush again, everyone can assault out of transports --> everyone buys transports!

Seriously, no, they didnt make the changes the way they are to generate more income. They made new rules and stuff to generate more income in general, thats true. But i cant see why that should be negative. If they do got work, im willing to pay for it and looking at 5th edition, they mostly DID good work.

Concerning your car example: The comparision lacks in 2 ways. First, if you cant get the "old" fuel for your car, you just cvant use it anymore but you can still play by the rules of 4th, 3rd or even 2nd or 1st edition although there is a new one. Second, many people need a car to get to work but you dont need to play warhammer its your decision. If you like it for that price, buy it, if you dont, then let it go or use the 4th edition, thats it.

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 12:17
Its good to have a thread with an intelligent title [/sarcasm] (<-- actually my sarcasm doesnt end there...it never turns off)



A. Kill points. If you ever want to field certain kinds of units (like Raveners), you certainly won't be able to field them in small numbers. Either you take a lot of them, or you don't take any at all, because they give KP way to easily. Gone are the days of "i have 40 points left, so i take a single Ravener". I think that lists will become more bland and less diverse because of this. Less different units, but more of the same.


Oh? Why are they gone? Shooting is going to be tougher now, with priority targets being the nasty enemy forces who can kick 9 shades of hell out of you, who is going to bother shooting an insignificant Ravenor?

anyway, why is that gone? i'd do it, what else am i going to spend those 40 points on?



B. Only official bases allowed. So if you want to play in official tournaments, you better buy two sets of Daemons, one with round bases, one with square ones...


Quite quite debunked, but also, playing 40k with square bases does look lame, i'd rather have 2 armies. This means the 40k one could be full of conversions, impressive bases, etc while the fantasy one has more conservative converting and bases.



C. Only Troops are scoring: You need a lot of Troops, because those usually are more fragile than the rest of the army. So you need more to compensate for this.


Like Wraithguard, Death Guard, Thousand sons, Deathwing Terminators.

Hey look! all the 5th edition codices have tough troops choices! Who'da thunk it?!



D. True line of sight. Laser marker...


Who has forced you to take this?


I think some people are missing the point here...

Actually, YOU have missed the point. The rules change, as do how people view and build their army. Your just trying to rabble rouse.

Halfpast_Yellow
28-05-2008, 12:20
So your opinion is basically this:

My car now has to use a new type of fuel, that is more expensive AND makes the car move slower, just because the oil company wants to make money.

So your reaction is: "Don't complain, drive a different car."

Perfect customer...

You might have to explain this analogy a bit further because I think it's so terrible I can't tell what you're trying to relate to...

Doomseer
28-05-2008, 12:22
Surely we are all free to buy new stuff, from any profit-making company, whenever we want to?

5th Edition is an offer you can freely choose to decline, it's not an order, they are not coming to get you!

If buying more troops is an issue, then I truly despair!

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 12:26
You might have to explain this analogy a bit further because I think it's so terrible I can't tell what you're trying to relate to...

I already own an army (car). Now the situation has changed in a way, that
A. the stuff becomes more expensive
B. the quality decreased (see points A, B and D in my changes list, which i think are horrible rules)
which i need to accept in order to still use my army (car), because no one will play 4th edition of course.
The only other option is to stop playing 40K and use another system (car). At least that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of complaining about those changes.

Even if i decide not to buy more stuff, i still have the problem of worse rules, that seem to have no other reason than to get other people to buy more stuff.

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 12:31
I already own an army (car). Now the situation has changed in a way, that
A. the stuff becomes more expensive

sorry? What do you mean by stuff?

If your talking about an army, then you already have one! Hooray!



B. the quality decreased (see points A, B and D in my changes list, which i think are horrible rules)

sorry, but you'll have to deal with it.



which i need to accept in order to still use my army (car), because no one will play 4th edition of course.

See thats the funny thing, if everyone is playing 5th edition, perhaps it IS a good rulesset and its YOU that has the problem, not the rules?



The only other option is to stop playing 40K and use another system (car). At least that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of complaining about those changes.

Even if i decide not to buy more stuff, i still have the problem of worse rules, that seem to have no other reason than to get other people to buy more stuff.

Perhaps GW is releasing rules you dont like, Stingray, to force you to play another gaming system.

...

ITS A CONSPIRACY BY WARMACHINE I TELL YOU!

setekhite
28-05-2008, 12:33
Well, no. No-one's army books are changing, so you can still field exactly the units you do at the moment. The new rules sound like they emphasize big, solid Troops contingents rather than lots of small elite units - but hey, aren't those Troops choices the ones with relatively cheap plastic sets anyway? But really, all that's happening is that the rules are shifting to reflect what GW's 'good gamer' advice has been saying for years; trust your Troops and take plenty of them.

IMHO it was only the shadier WAAC elements of the gaming community that really loved such things as single Wraiths for objective grabbing. These are also the people who will get most frustrated by changes in perceived unit value, and then feel they have to buy more stuff to 'keep up'. That's entirely self-imposed pressure (rather like thinking you MUST have the latest games console).

To answer specifics:




A. Kill points. If you ever want to field certain kinds of units (like Raveners), you certainly won't be able to field them in small numbers. Either you take a lot of them, or you don't take any at all, because they give KP way to easily. Gone are the days of "i have 40 points left, so i take a single Ravener". I think that lists will become more bland and less diverse because of this. Less different units, but more of the same.

IMO, this is mainly focussed on the very 'gamey' approach in V3+4 of taking single models to improve survivability / chance of grabbing objectives / fire options. There is now a downside to doing so which wasn't there before - your choice as to the balance of benefits and risks.



B. Only official bases allowed. So if you want to play in official tournaments, you better buy two sets of Daemons, one with round bases, one with square ones...

How are 25mm square bases not official? Anyway, you answered your won question; this is really only relevant in tournament play, where you should be extending such courtesies to your opponent.


C. Only Troops are scoring: You need a lot of Troops, because those usually are more fragile than the rest of the army. So you need more to compensate for this.
Tell me an army where the Troops are (point for point) the most fragile element. Go on, please! It's the high-cost Elites, HS etc that are most fragile IMO. Anyway, see my main remarks...

Dave_Loken
28-05-2008, 12:38
appart from the periperals im set since 3rd ed for the most part. This is 5th now kids fresh start what fun. Marines, necrons tau and nids have had a core plastic available for a long time. orc players had some nice plastics now they have a grrrrrreat codex and more plastic. Holding hands up now dark eladr deserve new toys. even chaos got a better sprue but it looks fine next to the old one. 30 rule book 6 laser pen i got dice and toys to keep me happy till i find my feet with 5thit should be a smooth transaction. "into to 3rd though ohh my god there were these nice toys that i had that were then blown away by new marine plastics. That wow factor has gone now for the most part ( exept the mumuk, monothith, baneblade and land raider when they came out) i can't understand the moaning changes better or worse its been the cycle for years when i finaly get fed up i'll just jump off

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 12:41
So you actually think, that true line of sight is a good thing, even though it means, that heavily converted models mean different visibilities.

You really think it is a good thing, that certain armies builds give 6 KP, while others give 12.

And you really think, that it is okay, that in official tournaments, heavily converted models are no longer legal, because they use larger bases.

Whitehorn
28-05-2008, 12:42
Agreed, that is terrible.

I still use models and paints from over 20 years ago. there are newer versions, so what? I enjoy the game just as much and the wow factor is often greater than some shiny new figure...

Equally I have practically every version of the game and often play alternatives. It's a game after all, no one forces you to play any particular version of the rules (if at all).

GW is foremost a miniature company not a games designer. That's just a supplement to their business.

kongnico
28-05-2008, 12:43
that korean-made lasermarker is going to drive me bankrupt, its my last 2 pounds :(

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 12:51
GW is foremost a miniature company not a games designer. That's just a supplement to their business.

And this is a good thing?

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 12:58
And this is a good thing?

Its not a good thing, or a bad thing. Its a thing, take it or leave it.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 13:07
Its not a good thing, or a bad thing. Its a thing, take it or leave it.

Miniature design having more importance than rulesets are a bad thing, because in the end it is a game that we play, not just collecting miniatures.

You may disagree, but you can not tell me, that i am not allowed to not like this fact.

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 13:21
Miniature design having more importance than rulesets are a bad thing, because in the end it is a game that we play, not just collecting miniatures.

You may disagree, but you can not tell me, that i am not allowed to not like this fact.

Wouldnt dream of telling you to like it when you dont.

I can tell you to accept it, just like you can accept that a tree is a tree, whether you like it or not.

jedipenguin
28-05-2008, 13:22
Miniature design having more importance than rulesets are a bad thing, because in the end it is a game that we play, not just collecting miniatures.

You may disagree, but you can not tell me, that i am not allowed to not like this fact.

I dont like the fact that I'm gonna die someday, but not liking it doesnt make it any less of a fact.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 13:23
I dont like the fact that I'm gonna die someday, but not liking it doesnt make it any less of a fact.

Then why criticising me for not liking it?

In this thread i am stating my concerns about some changes in 5th edition. But instead of discussing about those changes, people are telling me, that i should not discuss these changes and just accept it.

With this kind of mindset, please unregister your account on Warseer. There is nothing here for you.

Melchor
28-05-2008, 13:25
In the long run, which is a better business decision money-wise; Making a crappy ruleset that will sell you more miniatures in the short run but will eventually drive customers away? Or a decent ruleset that doesn't drive customers away keeping them in the hobby for a longer period of time, thus making money out of them for a longer period of time?

I know which one I'd go for, and it isn't the first.

As said before, if you don't like (some of) the new rules houserule them. Or consider sticking to 4th edition. I, for one, will try to get a decent number of games under my belt before I pass judgement.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 13:27
In the long run, which is a better business decision money-wise; Making a crappy ruleset that will sell you more miniatures in the short run but will eventually drive customers away? Or a decent ruleset that doesn't drive customers away keeping them in the hobby for a longer period of time.


Well, if you are a manager who has a goal to make as much profit as possible in the short time you are employed in a firm, before you go to the next one (while cashing in some nice bonus), then you'd go defenitely for the first one...

Also you might think, that crappy rules are sufficient, because most customers will stick to it anyway, because "it is as it is" and it's "just a thing".

Anton Gorodetsky
28-05-2008, 13:27
Miniature design having more importance than rulesets are a bad thing, because in the end it is a game that we play, not just collecting miniatures.

You may disagree, but you can not tell me, that i am not allowed to not like this fact.

Actually, GW is selling a hobby, not just a game. I wouldn't call it a lifestyle, but it's pretty close. Most of us, I'd say 80% of us, don't play 40k for just the game. It's clunky, inelegant, and incapable of doing some of the fancy things new games like WM and AT-43 can pull of. But it's beauty is in it's simplicity, and in the massive hobby that it is. WM and AT-43 haven't fostered this "Make your own army, and make it big" style of thought. Now the cynics (like me) can point out that GW is out to make money, but who goes into a hobby to save money? You think we have it bad, think about people who go sailing, people who ski, people who like guns or sports cars. Also, yes I can compare one hobby with another, because hobbies are all money hemmorrages. Yes, even hiking. You need to get boots, clothes, etc, and I'm pretty sure you want special equipment. Thats what hobbies are about, wants. You "need" in that hobby, but you don't need in comparison with the real world.

Sit back, take a breath, wait for the rules to actually be released, and then we can all bitch about them on Warseer. I imagine if S4 defensive weapons is still in 5E, and there isn't special rules to change that for my IG, I'll be on here quite a bit. But remember, 40k is mostly about collecting and painting, playing is supposed to be a fun activity, not just limited to tournaments but to playing with your buds over a brew.

Also, whew, long reply.

Huw_Dawson
28-05-2008, 13:33
On the official bases arguement:

The wonderful world of "borrow a base and blue tac it to the bottom of your incorrect base" works well here.

Anyway, GW sells minatures to make money. Such is life.

- Huw

jedipenguin
28-05-2008, 13:38
Then why criticising me for not liking it?

In this thread i am stating my concerns about some changes in 5th edition. But instead of discussing about those changes, people are telling me, that i should not discuss these changes and just accept it.

With this kind of mindset, please unregister your account on Warseer. There is nothing here for you.

You were'nt discussing the changes to the rules at that point, you were disputing/decrying the fact that GW views itself primaily as a retailer of miniatures, not rules.

I merely pointed out that not liking something does'nt make it any less true, no criticism was involved at any point.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 13:40
Anyway, GW sells minatures to make money. Such is life.


And people get killed in wars. So?

unheilig
28-05-2008, 13:40
GW is a corporation that manufactures a product... and just like Ford, Coca-Cola, Apple, and Nike. All of these corporations have a primary mission of Selling More Product.

The primary methods for Selling More Product are:

1. Attract more Customers- this is where advertising comes into play.
2. Cultivate repeat Customers- this is where product improvement comes into play.

GW has yet to really leverage #1, and concentrate on #2.

Improving the value of their product involves:

1. Improving, at least by their standards, the game that serves as a interest vector for their product.
2. Increasing the quality of miniatures
3. Pricing the miniatures at what the market will bear

Whether or not you think they are successful at those 3 points is subjective. The only way to really voice a strong opposition to a corporation's attempts at Selling more Product is to vote with your dollar.

40k isn't perfect. Neither is Coca-Cola. Neither are Macs. But I enjoy all these things- and prefer them all to the products of their competitors.

Were I less understanding about the necessary methods and practices of ALL corporations, I might stomp my feet and throw a tantrum over every perceived attempt by the above companies to maintain themselves as viable businesses and increase their profits, I suppose- but I can't claim to understand that phenomenon.

Anton Gorodetsky
28-05-2008, 13:41
And people get killed in wars. So?

Thats their job or duty. So?

x-esiv-4c
28-05-2008, 13:43
Thats their job or duty. So?

It's a soldiers job/duty to get killed?

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 13:43
Thats their job or duty. So?

And bananas are yellow.

Has the same meaning to the discussion. (that is: none at all).

Melchor
28-05-2008, 13:44
Well, if you are a manager who has a goal to make as much profit as possible in the short time you are employed in a firm, before you go to the next one (while cashing in some nice bonus), then you'd go defenitely for the first one...
[...]

You may be right, but I have yet to see proof of that actually being the case... For now, I still believe that the people who are in charge of game design are (at heart) hobbyists and that they intend to make the game fun.

You can call me naive if you like, but that's the way I see it.

If the rules are fun or not is mostly a matter of opinion (I happen to like 4th and like what I hear about 5th, but that's just me).

And again, if I happen to call 5th ed. 'teh sux' it will only be after I have played a decent amount of games with it not after I read about it in the internet.

Copella
28-05-2008, 14:09
to the OP, Not insulting you, but you may have jumped the gun a little perhaps. GW is a business, they do need to make money in order to keep the business going. They haven't made any rules that make you have to buy a whole new army (unless you "want" those crawling zerkers:wtf:)

A. Kill points, I haven't played using them yet. I understand the issue tho. Seeing lists with 6 KPs vs a list with 12 KPs will mean the smaller KP force has more of a chance to win due to more targets.

B. Has there been a definition of what is official for each model? I can see some infantry using Terminator bases without a problem. I would have a problem seeing ppl put Assualt squad models on Dreadnought bases tho. Perhaps it means that the base has to be one GW made, and not the mdf or press-board used to make diaorama bases. We should prolly wait till more info is official on this rule.

C. They made troops more important: This isn't a major deal. It helps stop the min/maxers.

D. True line of sight, Laser point or, kneel down and use the organic laser pupil (otherwise known as your eyeball).

Sorry if i came off sounding catty. I understand some of the issues with the new rules as we've seen them so far. Tho we should refrain from "oMGeeZZ they teh suxzor!!111#?bob!!!" comments till we actually play a few games using all the new official rules.

Witchsight
28-05-2008, 14:28
Is it just me, or didnt they say after 4th that any changes to the game would only be minor and they wouldnt be doing huge revamps...?

Maybe im thinking WHFB

Anton Gorodetsky
28-05-2008, 14:31
It's a soldiers job/duty to get killed?

No, to fight for their country, or profit if they work for an MNC. Getting killed is just part of the deal. For glory or profit, who said life would be easy

But this is irrelevant, and discussions of pacifism should be relegated to a different website entirely.

ReveredChaplainDrake
28-05-2008, 14:37
If this "buy more stuff LOLZ!!!" edition rumor is really true, then I'm gonna' just get all my stuff from Warstore from now on.

Back in 4th, and even in 3rd, I had the wherewithal to buy lots of Troops because that's what I thought the game should have been about. (Yes, I was fielding 4 full Marine (well, Initiate) squads repeatedly in 3rd edition.) Now in 5th, nearly a decade later, my suspicions about the superiority of massed troops are finally vindicated.

The only thing that's stupid about 5th edition is True LoS. Up until now, 40k modeling and 40k gaming were virtually synonymous, overlapping and even enriching one another via WYSIWYG, such that a good modeler would have a tactical edge over the less-adventurous modeler in bang-for-buck conversions. But now, with True LoS, one cannot be an equally-good modeler as they are a gamer (unless they do that "underwater Carnifex" crap).

Dave_Loken
28-05-2008, 14:38
I'm realy hoping that 5th edition will be alot of fun memories for me as a gamer and my mates. After the first 3 price hikes and a codex that disapointed me I stopped caring, im still in the hobby so i let the cost and the occasional terrible rules writting pass cos i've made so many friends, had so many good battles and still buy these silly toys

gorgon
28-05-2008, 14:42
I think maybe what the OP was really asking is if 5th edition will drive sales through forced obsolence and tactics like that.

I don't think the OP is really representing himself well, but those of you simply replying that "companies are in business to make money" are ignoring how companies sometimes use unscrupulous (or just plain annoying) methods to make said money. I'm not saying GW is, but that is a topic more worthy of discussion.

Personally, I'm staying optimistic about 5th edition. I like many things I've heard. However, it does probably represent GW's last chance to really keep my business. 40K has been a mess for TWENTY YEARS...it's time they do better.

tsutek
28-05-2008, 14:45
I dont like the fact that I'm gonna die someday, but not liking it doesnt make it any less of a fact.

Learn to like it before you do - It'll be a lot nicer experience for you, I promise :)

samiens
28-05-2008, 14:45
Well, to deal with the issues:

Kill points are great- they force you to make army choices that are more than slap in the face simple- more units will have a greater survivability and tactical manoeverability but you face being outdone on kill points.

Real line of sight isn't how I would have gone, but I can tell you right now I would not let a laser pointer near my models! We'll just crouch down like we did in 2nd edition- I intend to play for cover saves as hiding will be too much hassle- but I'm over cautious and actually do best when I'm pressing up....

Troops as scoring makes the min-maxing lists a big risk to take- GOOD! It means that we might have balanced games- fighting a min-maxed list just isn't as fun as once you break their unbeatable unit its over

tsutek
28-05-2008, 14:58
Oh yeah, being on-topic? I'll try:

Are you sure you have not turned into warhammer 40,000? You seem to take it so seriously that I would call your mum if I'd know her number.. worrying stuff.

It's only a set of abstract rules to 'have fun' with.. you can enjoy it casually, you can embrace it with all your cells and lose yourself into it, you can ignore it... there's many ways to play. But to me, it's never a burden, a source of _real_ angst, or anything like that.. It's a hobby. Just a *******' hobby, like jogging..

Of course, I can blame everyone else in the world if I'm not enjoying my hobby - but ultimately I am responsible for the happiness in my life, and no matter how much I spit venom on top of others, my happiness will not be affected..

And yes, GW is a monster for trying to employ many people to get their livelihood from doing something they really enjoy.. shame on them! In 6th ed, we will have to not only buy more miniatures (god forbid, no!), but we'll have to pray to Jervis two times a day or be banned from all tourneys - forever.

Brother Loki
28-05-2008, 15:06
In this thread i am stating my concerns about some changes in 5th edition. But instead of discussing about those changes, people are telling me, that i should not discuss these changes and just accept it.


The thread title is a question, and you reiterate it in your post by asking what people think. Nobody's suggesting you shouldn't hold those opinions, just that they disagree with them.

On to your points (bearing in mind that I haven't read the rulebook yet.):

A. Kill points. I don't know the details, but my assumprion from your comments is that, say 3 obliterators in one unit would be x kill points, while 3 obliterators in 3 separate choices would be 3 times as many, is that it? That seems perfectly reasonable to me, and rewards non-gamist army building.

B. Bases. Has anyone actually read this in the rulebook? Is it a 40k rule or a GT rule? If its the former, then its free to be ignored or houseruled like anything else in the rulebook. If the latter it makes a certain amount of sense to prevent people claiming advantage from non-standard bases, and has no bearing outsode of those specific tournaments. Either way, might I suggest a variety of solutions such as magnets, pinning, blue-tack and so on.

C. Troops should be the backbone of the army, the core choice. There's nothing wrong with encouraging their use in my opinion. Most players I know have more than 2 in their collection anyway (even if they don't cuirrently field all of them in an army).

D. How does true LOS equate to needing a laser pointer? They may sell one, but that doesn't mean you have to buy it. We used true LOS for years before 4th edition without needing one. Have we forgotten how to see since then? I don't know about you, but I can't imagine ever needing anything more stringent than my opponent's word for it that his unit has LOS to mine, even in a tournament. I'd expect the same courtesy in return. Maybe because I generally play adults and people that I like.

Cheers
Pete

Grimmeth
28-05-2008, 15:11
Lets face it, if you got off on taking no troops choices and min/maxing everything previously then you're now being penalised - you've had a good period where you could trounce everyone I'm sure, this is pretty much just desserts.
For the rest of us these changes (bar the bases one, which has been debunked anyway) aren't all that bad at all. I for one like being nudged (but not forced, otherwise force org charts would have changed) to take more troop choices, because in absolutely every army you can think of, there's more 'basic troops' than there are Elites, Support etc.
Seems to me this is a thread trying to cause an argument for arguments sake.

Morticon
28-05-2008, 15:12
Wow.

GW finally does something to remove a HUGE aspect of power gaming (min-maxing of certain units) and suddenly its a conspiracy theory to get us to buy more >_<

Those guys cant win can they.

Grimmeth
28-05-2008, 15:15
Wow.

GW finally does something to remove a HUGE aspect of power gaming (min-maxing of certain units) and suddenly its a conspiracy theory to get us to buy more >_<

Those guys cant win can they.

They win in most people's eyes. Personally I'm relatively impressed with GW's recent performance (Warhammer 25th, 5th ed rules that I've seen, re-implementing some humour into the armies - Daemons for example) but, unfortunately, some people are never going to be happy.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 15:22
A. Kill points. I don't know the details, but my assumprion from your comments is that, say 3 obliterators in one unit would be x kill points, while 3 obliterators in 3 separate choices would be 3 times as many, is that it? That seems perfectly reasonable to me, and rewards non-gamist army building.

No, you don't understand.
The problem is, that now a single 80 points Lictor is worth the same amount of kill points as a 500 point Terminator squad.
I should take more Lictors in the squad? Well okay, now those Lictors are worth 3 times the kill points...
And even if they are not, they still cost half as much as the Terminator squad but give the same amount of kill points. That's nonsense and makes a lot of units extremely unattractive.



D. How does true LOS equate to needing a laser pointer? They may sell one, but that doesn't mean you have to buy it. We used true LOS for years before 4th edition without needing one. Have we forgotten how to see since then? I don't know about you, but I can't imagine ever needing anything more stringent than my opponent's word for it that his unit has LOS to mine, even in a tournament. I'd expect the same courtesy in return. Maybe because I generally play adults and people that I like.


You are missing the point here too. I didn't complain, that i need to buy a laser pointer, i said, that they included this rule in order to push sales for their new laser pointer. The problem i have with this rule is, that now different conversions mean different visibilities, opening a whole can of new problems.

And about the bases thingy? Where was it debunked?

Copella
28-05-2008, 15:29
I think maybe what the OP was really asking is if 5th edition will drive sales through forced obsolence and tactics like that.

I don't think the OP is really representing himself well, but those of you simply replying that "companies are in business to make money" are ignoring how companies sometimes use unscrupulous (or just plain annoying) methods to make said money. I'm not saying GW is, but that is a topic more worthy of discussion.

There is nothing that prevents you from using the same lists you used in 4th. So you really don't have to buy anything more. Those lists may or may not be less effective in 5th tho. This is the fact that ppl are happy with. You won't see eldar field two tiny troop squads and 3 ring circus (harlies).

The only reason you might want to buy your whole army over again is if you "want" to make that crawling army or whatever odd conversion you have in mind. Tho, i wouldn't expect many ppl to actually play your crawling army.

The troop choice, which prolly should be a larger chunk of your army is brought more into the spotlight. Gives ppl more reasons to take more troops. Thus, making more balanced lists and less cheese wheels. That may mean some ppl will have to go out and buy more to make troop squads more powerful/survivable. Seeing 6, 5-man tac squads compared to 3, 10-man squads, always made me want to question the SM player's tactic. 5-man squads were so easy to reduce to less than 50% than 10-man squads (i know this is only pretains to 4th ed and earlier)

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 15:36
There is nothing that prevents you from using the same lists you used in 4th. So you really don't have to buy anything more. Those lists may or may not be less effective in 5th tho. This is the fact that ppl are happy with. You won't see eldar field two tiny troop squads and 3 ring circus (harlies).


My current 2000 point has these things:

1 Lictor
1 Ravener
1 Biovore
1 Zoanthrope
3 Winged Warriors
3 Shooty Warriors

Now i would need to buy more Lictors, Raveners, Biovores, Warriors and Zoanthropes, otherwise they give away KP too easily. (Probably they still give them away to easily evevn when taken in larger amounts). Or maybe i should play Nidzilla in KP missions...

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 15:39
No, you don't understand.
The problem is, that now a single 80 points Lictor is worth the same amount of kill points as a 500 point Terminator squad.
I should take more Lictors in the squad? Well okay, now those Lictors are worth 3 times the kill points...
And even if they are not, they still cost half as much as the Terminator squad but give the same amount of kill points. That's nonsense and makes a lot of units extremely unattractive.

But those units are attractive in the 2 Missions which dont have Kill points in them. Since its rolled randomly, you need to decide whether its worth it or not.


You are missing the point here too. I didn't complain, that i need to buy a laser pointer, i said, that they included this rule in order to push sales for their new laser pointer. The problem i have with this rule is, that now different conversions mean different visibilities, opening a whole can of new problems.

And about the bases thingy? Where was it debunked?

You have it the wrong way round.

Especially when you consider that they wouldnt sell a laser unless true line of sight existed in the first place.

Your arguements are hinged on the basis that GW is a money grubber, perhaps they are, perhaps they arnt. but to have an arguement you need to deal with facts, not with conjecture.

Strix
28-05-2008, 15:39
I don't think this is the "OMFG< U MU$T BY MORE!!!111!" Edition. That was 3rd edition, where they halfed the points cost of pretty much everything. (marine squad went from about 300 to about 180 now with upgrades). The rules will take some getting used to tactically, but I really don't think theres anything in GW's motives beyond shifting 50000 shiney new rulebooks.

To the OP, the answer really is simple.

I'm going to make a huge logical assumption here that most of your friends play 4th edition at the moment. Which obviously means, when the new rulebooks come out, they will still have the 4th edition ones. When you play your friends, play 4th edition, simple.

GW is not pyhsically putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy or to play the rules set. Don't like it? Change it or adapt it how you want to.

Brother Loki
28-05-2008, 15:45
I probably shouldn't comment any further on kill points, since I've no real idea how they work. I can't imagine they'll be a big factor in the way I build armies though (any more than Victory Points in Warmachine). There's much more important things like how cool are the models, can I think of a good conversion, do they fit in the theme of the army and so on.


No, you don't understand.
I didn't complain, that i need to buy a laser pointer, i said, that they included this rule in order to push sales for their new laser pointer.


That sounds like paranoia to me. I'd lay money on it that the rules came first, and then someone had the bright idea that they should do a laser pointer. Bear in mind the original rumour was that the pointer would come in the starter set, not that it would be a separate item for sale. I can see why they wouldn't put it in the starter though, as that might cause legal problems in some countries etc.



The problem i have with this rule is, that now different conversions mean different visibilities, opening a whole can of new problems.


That's a valid criticism, but I think its been blown out of proportion. If someone wants to go to the effort of converting a kneeling army, then more power to them. I can't see it affecting enough people to matter. Are people really crazy enough to do that kind of thing for some perceived in-game advantage, or is it a 'what if' scenario? Is it really even an advantage? If your model is kneeling to make it harder for the enemy to see it, then its also harder for it to see the enemy, surely?


And about the bases thingy? Where was it debunked?

I don't know if it has been debunked, but until I've read it in a rulebook, I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

Copella
28-05-2008, 15:46
My current 2000 point has these things:

1 Lictor
1 Ravener
1 Biovore
1 Zoanthrope
3 Winged Warriors
3 Shooty Warriors

Now i would need to buy more Lictors, Raveners, Biovores, Warriors and Zoanthropes, otherwise they give away KP too easily. (Probably they still give them away to easily evevn when taken in larger amounts). Or maybe i should play Nidzilla in KP missions...

You can still play that list in 5th ed. Yes, you prolly will be giving up some easy KPs. Tho your list is still playable (just with a bit of a disadvantage).

I don't know much about the points costs or force org. of Nids, but if you drop something, you could boost one of the others. Maybe 6 Wing-a-ling bugs or something like that.

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 15:47
But those units are attractive in the 2 Missions which dont have Kill points in them. Since its rolled randomly, you need to decide whether its worth it or not.


Oh, so you mean they are only useless 1/3 of the time...? I'd rather prefer a game, where those units are usefull ALL the time, like in 4th edition...

It's a bad rule and defending the rule with: "it's only a bad rule, when it's in effect" doesn't make much sense...



Your arguements are hinged on the basis that GW is a money grubber, perhaps they are, perhaps they arnt. but to have an arguement you need to deal with facts, not with conjecture.

So, you have proof for the "fact", that GW suddenly decided to make a laser pointer for their new rule and not the other way around?

Stingray_tm
28-05-2008, 15:49
You can still play that list in 5th ed. Yes, you prolly will be giving up some easy KPs. Tho your list is still playable (just with a bit of a disadvantage).

I don't know much about the points costs or force org. of Nids, but if you drop something, you could boost one of the others. Maybe 6 Wing-a-ling bugs or something like that.

So it is okay, that i have an disadvantage, just because i like this list and the variety of it?

You aren't contesting what i said, that i have to buy more models to make this thing work, like 3 new winged Warriors to upgrade my existing 3 ones. At the same time the list becomes more boring, because i drop the Biovore, the Lictor and the Zoanthrope.

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-05-2008, 15:59
Oh, so you mean they are only useless 1/3 of the time...? I'd rather prefer a game, where those units are usefull ALL the time, like in 4th edition...

It's a bad rule and defending the rule with: "it's only a bad rule, when it's in effect" doesn't make much sense...


You mean like buying Deep Strike and Infiltrate in Alpha Missions?

My arguement is that balance is achieved because a player cannot be sure what kind of unit will be useful in which situation, they need to be prepared for them all, meaning a balanced list is needed.

Each mission requires different types of units, Annihilate requires killy units, The loot counter one requires strong, resiliant units, the recon one requires fast ones.

The battlezones change this too, since taking Infiltrating or scouting troops choices will be most useful in the cleanse style set up.

See? You need a balanced list which can effectively fight in all these missions. Overspecialise and you will be destroyed.


So, you have proof for the "fact", that GW suddenly decided to make a laser pointer for their new rule and not the other way around?

No, meaning that both our arguements are based on conjecture, not fact. So there is no evidence either way, meaning there is no point arguing unless you are in the mood for some kind of internet pissing contest.

Copella
28-05-2008, 16:04
So it is okay, that i have an disadvantage, just because i like this list and the variety of it?

You aren't contesting what i said, that i have to buy more models to make this thing work, like 3 new winged Warriors to upgrade my existing 3 ones. At the same time the list becomes more boring, because i drop the Biovore, the Lictor and the Zoanthrope.

Every army has advantages and disadvantages. The KP stuff added another advantage/disadvantage for all armies (Tho like a lot have said here, we'll have to wait for the final FAQs to get a complete idea of how they are to work). You'd have to use that list a little more smartly to get max damage out of them. They will have just the same amount of killing power as they did in 4th.
Also, I stated in my first post that ppl will "want" to buy stuff to beef up current squads. That included troops and other stuff. You are not forced to buy it. Heck, I still haven't boosted my Sister's Retribution squad to 10 models yet since I've been working on other projects. They are currently 6 models with an Immolator transport. Do i HAVE to go buy more of them, nope. Will I? At some point I will. I plan on finishing a Stormtrooper squad and another 10-woman troop in a Rhino first tho.
I Don't have to add anything to my army to play 5th. Will I have some disadvantages from the KP system, more and likely. Will my army be able to kill just as much as they did in 4th, Yes.

Grimmeth
28-05-2008, 16:09
Just a side note: But GW have used 'True LOS' for a lot longer than the weird 4th ed system - Warhammer has used it for god knows how long and 2nd ed and Necromunda both used it. I'm pretty sure Epic did too - so it's hardly a new system.
It also doesn't need a Laser Pointer to be able to play like this - it may make it a little easier, but it certainly isn't necessary after all, they haven't been available until now.

lotrchampion
28-05-2008, 16:10
I like my WH list for High Elves which attempts to some degree the armies of Ancient Greece. Does it put me at a disadvantage? Hell yes! I've had my force ripped to shreds by Empire gun lines in a few turns before. Does it put me off the list? No, because I like it. That kind of counters the argument that you should have an equal advantage no matter the list you play.

It seems that you are writing your lists purely to win games, as opposed to getting some enjoyment out of it. I say this based on the fact that you really are whinging so much about the whole Kill Points thing-why??? As has been said, the are used in so few scenarios that it makes little difference.

The official bases matter. This mainly affects, as you have said, Daemons. If you want your WH Daemon army to double as a WH40k Daemon army, there are a number of ingenious inventions to help your plight.
-Magnets
-Pinning
-Double sided tape

Personally, I would mount all my daemons on a thin piece of plasticard and then use double-sided tape or similar to stick this to the base I need to use for the respective system. Remember, normally you have to buy 2 different armies for WH and 40k. I am sure that if you really are going to complain about not being able to completely miss out on giving GW money for this second army, that it isn't too much trouble to put a little effort into making them cross-system compatible. Just seems like laziness on your part to me.

Only troops scoring. Wowsers. Can you guess what most armies are made up of? Troops. Suprising that. Since people avoid the FOC's locks on this by including the cheapest possible troop units in favour of lots of l33tzor units, this encourages not trying this. Is that so bad? At 1500pts, there is enough room to get several decent Troops units in addition to all the sparkly stuff. At last than that, realistically speaking a force of the size wouldn't include many shiny units anyway, mainly troops! That is the point of having a main core to an army. If it were any other way, then you might as well make Harlequins, Terminators and Carnifexes troops. See my point? Real armies are made up of troops, not elites, that's why they are elites.

And the laser pointer? What makes me, a primarily LotR player, laugh, is that we have been getting by with LoS rules ever since it's release. We have the ability to use our eyes and not rely on laser pointer things. If GW is afraid that 40k players might not be able to resolve matters by eyesight e.g. LoS through a narrow gap in a building, what is wrong with a laser pointer? And as an extension of this, what is wrong with offering people a place to mbuy them? It gives people the option. The LoS rule isn't an excuse to flog laser pointers, rather the pointers are an aid, nothing more. What I'd be more worried about is that GW seem to think players of 40k have sight problems. They certainly will after buying a laser for regular use, knowing some of the kids at my local store.

I can see where you are coming from (I think Kill Points are pointless really) but this seems paranoia to the extreme. Take a breather about this and consider some of the points made on these matters, and you can see that not everything is as big, bad and nasty as you make out about 5th Edition.

Brimstone
28-05-2008, 16:14
This thread has barely any connection with 5th edition discussion and is becoming a price/general bitching thread.

As such I'm going to close it.

The Warseer Inquisition