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EvC
28-05-2008, 14:36
Is it possible for two Daemon characters in a 2000 point Daemon army to both have the Siren Song ability? If so, what happens if they both use it on the same unit? It'd most likely be unable to charge both, so would that mean it has to flee..?

Oenghus
28-05-2008, 14:48
Hmm. I'd say that two characters could both have SS, but that targeting the same unit with it simultaneously (even if you'd want to waste two once-per-game gifts on one unit) wouldn't work. The targeted unit must be able to charge in order to be affected -- and as it'll have to declare a charge against the first SS activated (or flee anyway) by the time you get around to activating the second SS it will be locked into the first charge and unable to charge the second daemon. Even if that's only a half-second later as you move your glance from one model to the other.

Or something.

I think? :confused:

Armilthuan
28-05-2008, 15:00
Rules loop.

How to avoid: Don't use it both on the same unit.

My solution: If there are two or more Siren Songs being played on the same unit. The unit may flee as normal or charge either Siren, unit controller's choice.

Condottiere
28-05-2008, 15:31
I would have thought that if two effects are in contradiction, the last cast one over-rides the first.

EvC
28-05-2008, 18:03
Ah, top-notch suggestion there Condottieri (and others) :D

BloodiedSword
28-05-2008, 18:09
Now maybe this is a bit too obvious, but is there actually a rule anywhere saying that Fleeing units may not charge?

I'm reading page 46, "Subsequent actions of fleeing troops", and it makes no mention of fleeing troops not being able to charge. Nor is there anything on page 18, under Declaring Charges, indicating that fleeing troops may not charge.

However, note that "If any model from a fleeing unit moves into contact with a non-fleeing enemy unit with unit strength 5 or more ... [other possibilities here] ... the entire unit is destroyed".

So, my contraversial suggestion is: the unit may be the target of Siren more than once per turn. If it charged successfully the first time then it is in combat and so the second Siren does nothing. If it fled the first time, then it may either charge (in which case any successful charge will destroy the unit immediately!) or flee a second time.

EDIT: Of course, this leads to a slightly ridiculous situation when the Sirening unit is US4 or less. Then, if the fleeing unit charges it you have the quagmire of conflicting rules such as the fleeing/charging unit being able to move right through the Siren unit and the fact that if the fleeing unit does somehow end up in combat then it cannot fight.

Something to be aware of in case you decide to play it this way.

logan054
28-05-2008, 18:39
Is it possible for two Daemon characters in a 2000 point Daemon army to both have the Siren Song ability? If so, what happens if they both use it on the same unit? It'd most likely be unable to charge both, so would that mean it has to flee..?

Yes they can, rather than being magic items they are more like unit upgrades, im guessing you would have to flee as you cant charge both, looks like a nice loop whole the other guy found, pretty sad hes using it.

Lordsaradain
28-05-2008, 18:43
Is there anything stopping you from picking siren song multiple times with teh same character...?







Just kidding.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
29-05-2008, 22:49
Yes- the Daemonic Gifts section says you can only have a gift ONCE on a given Character, though several Characters in the army could have the same gift. . . but still only ONCE per.

That is to stop that, as well as Tzeentch Heralds with 2-Spellbreakers each, or Bloodthirsters with 4 x Firestorm Blades = +4 STR Bonus = STR-10, Flaming, etc.

decker_cky
29-05-2008, 23:27
stuff

So if playing against you, you'd be fine if they declared a charge with a fleeing unit? Fleeing units are bound by compulsory movement so cannot declare a charge (or any other movement).

I'd also say that to the original situation, the first siren song is targeted, then the decision is made to charge or flee. The second siren song could not target because they have already declared a charge, or cannot charge because they have chosen to flee.

BloodiedSword
29-05-2008, 23:33
So if playing against you, you'd be fine if they declared a charge with a fleeing unit? Fleeing units are bound by compulsory movement so cannot declare a charge (or any other movement).

I'd also say that to the original situation, the first siren song is targeted, then the decision is made to charge or flee. The second siren song could not target because they have already declared a charge, or cannot charge because they have chosen to flee.

I would be absolutely fine with it! As mentioned, a fleeing unit is completely destroyed if it ever comes into contact with an enemy model for any reason, including if it charges it ;)

Where does it say that units subject to compulsory movement may not declare charges? Unless you can give me a page reference for this, I'm not buying it.

Models that fail a Stupidity test may not voluntarily declare charges, but that is a special side effect of failing a Stupidity test - not because they are bound by compulsory movement.

Nurgling Chieftain
30-05-2008, 00:01
Where does it say that units subject to compulsory movement may not declare charges?The main rulebook FAQ says you cannot deliberately declare an unsuccessful charge.

...Don't fleeing units have no facing?

WLBjork
30-05-2008, 09:33
Page 19 -Rally Fleeing Troops states:
Fleeing troops are of no fighting value unless they can be rallied, which means they come to their senses and stop fleeing in readiness to fight once more.

Not particularly helpful, but a good indication that fleeing troops cannot declare a charge.

Also, it is important to consider that even if Fleeing units could declare a charge, they could not complete it.


If the test is passed, the unit stops fleeing and has rallied. The unit must immediately execute a Reform Manoeuvre. If the fleeing troops fail their rally check and continue to flee, they are moved next along with other compulsory moves, as described later.

Either of these results would override the effects of SS.

Mike KK
30-05-2008, 09:44
i think it would work how the first reply to OP because you would declare it with one then with the other either overriding each other or only one effecting...however tbh just use it on two units

BloodiedSword
30-05-2008, 12:23
WLBjork - here you are assuming that in the process of declaring their charge, they stop fleeing. That isn't a necessary assumption though, and I am arguing that they charge while still counting as a Fleeing unit - therefore, they don't rally, they can't fight in CC, and are destroyed if they come into contact with an enemy of US5+, and move through enemies of US4 or less as if they were open terrain.

As you mention, Fleeing units may not fight but this doesn't really matter since they are destroyed as soon as they move into contact with the unit they are charging, or may not move into contact into it if it is US4 or less.

Nurgling Chieftan - I don't know actually. Does it say somewhere that they do not have a facing?

And yes, I am aware that the RaI probably do not intend for Fleeing units to be able to charge, but on the other hand it would have been so easy and obvious for GW just to say "Fleeing units may not declare a charge". So.. why didn't they?

WLBjork
30-05-2008, 13:45
Did I say they stopped fleeing?

No, I said the exact opposite - that because they were fleeing, they *still* have to make a rally check (if they can), and the results of that rally check immediately override the effects of SS :rolleyes:

Facing is uncertain, but they no longer have a formation, so I suppose that it could be argued that they no longer have a facing.

BloodiedSword
30-05-2008, 15:42
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow you here. When are you saying that they need to make their Rally check? These are only made by the Fleeing unit during its own turn, after declaring charges.

Since Siren is used in the other player's turn, how do these rules interact? By the time it gets to the Fleeing unit's turn (and hence it gets a chance to make a Rally test), it has either fled again from the second Siren or been destroyed.

Armilthuan
30-05-2008, 15:48
Check your armybook. It is used in the opponent's player turn.

BloodiedSword
30-05-2008, 15:50
Huh. Good point. Well, in that case feel free to disregard anything I've said previously :p