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View Full Version : Reorganising the glorious Imperial Guard!



Commissar Vaughn
28-05-2008, 15:26
Theres been a number of threads recently about how the Guard need a new codex/new rules/new haircuts etc etc etc, and I decided that rather than try and address each thread individualy I'd post my own suggestions here for your criticisms!

I feel that there is one major change needed, and ill come to that in a moment; Im not convinced of the need for much change with the actual army itself, its units, rules or points values are fine. ok so some stuff is a little too expensive, but in a way it has to be to prevent us from filling our side of the table with more targets than the enemy has bullets! Im happy with the way most of this is at the mo, and my guard regiment copes perfectly well with it

The main thing I feel needs changing is the way the guard is organised: The docrtine system introduced for a good reason, however its not I feel the best solution. The Guard is hampered by the fact its various lists (infantry coy, armoured coy etc) force you to select units according to three different criteria : the normal Force org chart, platoon level selection("if you have one of these you can have X of these or y of those") and the doctrines ("All your guys must have this, that or the other etc"). This gives the Guard a lot of diversity, but at the same time strangles Guard commanders with red tape...everyone else is just limited to the force org charts.

I get the feeling that by streamlining this selection process (and i dont mean by reducing the variety or diversity!) a lot of Guard players problems will be solved.

What would you say to one list, that covers all the variables (recce, grenadier, Infantry, Armoured, Mechanised, Droptroops with divisional artillery and air support) allowing you to theme your force around one type with support from the others at a sensible level? A way of doing this already exists within the various Guard lists, but it seems to me that if we removed the need for a Force organisation chart, and took away the doctrines we would be a lot closer to the way the Guard should work

One game already uses a selection process similar to the one I have in mind: Flames of War, and a few minor changes would make for a much more efficient Guard army. Anyways, I reckon the Guard has more in common with a WW2 army than with any other 40k force!

Ill just give a quick example of how it could work:
First you pick the core of your force: If you select a Recce force, the core of your army would be made up Salamander squadrons, Sentinal Squadrons, Light Infantry platoons, probably with a Sally command as HQ, if Grenadier company it would be Stormtrooper platoons (the command platoon would have to be modified appropriatly!) perhaps with sentinals and chimeras: selecting X number of these units would allow Y supporting units selected from (for the Recce example...) armoured squadrons and Grenadier platoons, with divisional support from Arty salvos, and air strikes (probably wouldnt be on table, but firing from reserve, probably have bassies and griffons back as close support assault guns rather than arty!)

The army list would simply become a list of platoons and squadrons:
command platoon (which can be made into grenadiers/recce etc as needed)
Infantry platoon
Para platoon
Light infantry platoon
Conscript platoon
Grenadier platoon
Mech platoon(I'd love to add motorised platoons but we dont have trucks )
armoured sqdn(russ of all kinds!)
recce sqdn(salamanders, chimeras, centaurs, possibly hellhounds)
sentinal sqdn
support sqdn (bassie, medusa, grffon, hydra etc
Divisional support (air and arty strikes, super heavies!)
etc etc

You pick the core force which then allows you to pick appropriate support in limited amounts. no Force org needed (except for deplyment at the mo, but as those rules are changin in 5th anyway what the hell!)

Maybe its just me but this style feels more like how the guard should work, and would probably result in a more effective fighting force than the current doctrine system.

Of coure theres a few downsides: the sheer variety of models available/needed to adequatly support the list would be huge (incorporating all the normal models plus the forgeworld range!) and would require more shelf space than any other army!(unless they just sold Russ/chimera kits and everything else was simply availabale as a conversion kit?)... and Im sure you'll point out a few more problems, but thats why I posted it!

Ill now leave you to tear this silly idea to peices!

Dave_Loken
28-05-2008, 15:41
Do you mean like the Scaven idea, take core of these and you can have up too x these in support.

I like the way the command platoons works. It could be the same for infartry platoons buy x units have y attached for certain choices.

I like ur idea might toy with it ask the guys at the shopif they would let me play a one off they are the relaxed type so should be cool

x-esiv-4c
28-05-2008, 15:47
I'd like to see a new heavy support weapon introduced that is a median between the Autocannon and the battlecannon, something that would represent a 105mm perhaps.

ssgtdude
28-05-2008, 16:06
The only problem I have with your suggestion is that it gives the feel that GW will be developing the army and all we as players would be doing is playing pre built armies.

I would rather have the doctrine and armory removed with the options of both added into the troop lists. IN this way if I wanted to upgrade that unit with Sharpshooter for X cost then I could.

Just as if I wanted to take a Commissar as an independent I could then pay X points additional for that.

SImple easy fix that would allow for the diversity that we enjoy, and also solve the problems as to who is allowed to have what from the armory as GW will have already made that decision on if it is a legal troop option or not.

Commissar Vaughn
28-05-2008, 16:19
I think there would be enuf scope within platoons to do that i.e you could still pick the weapons and upgrades per squad/tank but I dont think squads should have too much individuality...though im thinking the veteran squad should be an upgraded squad in an infantry platoon(the 5th squad in a platoon may be upgraded to vet at +x points and gets these options:...). Things like sharpshooter/carapace etc should perhaps be bought for entire platoons, becouse thats the basic unit of the guard, not the squad.

Commissar Vaughn
28-05-2008, 16:23
I'd like to see a new heavy support weapon introduced that is a median between the Autocannon and the battlecannon, something that would represent a 105mm perhaps.

See forge world: large cal mortars and conquerer cannons

VikingThor
28-05-2008, 16:23
I think you have some good ideas. While I like it, it seems so customizable that it may not be very friendly for new players. The options are so abundant that many people would get lost in accounting instead of putting together a quick army and playing a fun game. I think the quick fix for what pains you would be to play apocolypse and use whatever you like. You just need 3000 points.

Chem-Dog
28-05-2008, 16:28
Commissar Vaughn's ideas aren't without merit but I feel they may just overly complicate things, rather than having a codex full of what you could call "Appendix Lists" wouldn't it be easier to have a flexible list that allows the player to theme their army without the need for massive variations in what counts as what in the FOC?

I agree with X-esiv-4c, some Artillery pieces would be most welcome in the IG.

Ssgtdude's Idea of turning Doctrines into simple squad upgrades (thus eliminating any question of what unit is allowed what upgrade) is also good but I'm not entirely convinced that we will keep any aspect of the Doctrine system at all.

Commissar Vaughn
28-05-2008, 16:30
I think you have some good ideas. While I like it, it seems so customizable that it may not be very friendly for new players. The options are so abundant that many people would get lost in accounting instead of putting together a quick army and playing a fun game. I think the quick fix for what pains you would be to play apocolypse and use whatever you like. You just need 3000 points.

I though it would streamline things tho : you could simply follow a flow chart for army selection! "X command platoon lets you take Y troops platoons, which allow W and Z support"
your basically buying your army in ready built chunks, and furnish them with whatever fine detail u like.

Problem with apoc is that I recently culled my model collection of all the stuf I never used! My guard army has been reduced from 12000 points to about 2000 which is basically a couple of infantry platoons and all the scratchbuilt/converted/kitbashed vehicles from my project logs over the years: all the standard verhicles and 300+ infantry have gone!

x-esiv-4c
28-05-2008, 16:33
Ok Vaughn, then the rules are already in place.
Stick a conquerer cannon on some wheels and make it a towed howitzer. I think most guard players would welcome something like that.

Commissar Vaughn
28-05-2008, 16:37
What about the rules for the krieg arty? arent they already similar? im sure forgeworld does some big wheeled guns!

edit how about these!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/heavymort.htm

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/quadl.htm

x-esiv-4c
28-05-2008, 16:46
Hey, as long as it makes it into the standard IG codex, then i'm all set :)

keatsmeister
28-05-2008, 16:56
Squad options is one way to go, but to be honest, I'm thinking if anything remotely like doctrines arrives in 5th ed, it might be beneficial to set it up in a similar way to purchasing a detachment for Apocalypse games.

You pay a chunk of your points for a detachment, complete with skills, then flesh it out with the number of units you require. Simple and easy.

Perhaps extend the system so you can purchase "Elements" for infantry, heavy infantry (including Vets), elite infantry (including light infantry), cavalry/mechanised troops, command, artillery, light armour, heavy armour. Each of these Elements initially would simply consist of 2 to 5 units, with an option to upgrade the Element to being a specialised Element with an Apocalypse-like skill set.

For example

Starting off you would have an infantry element consisting of a Lieutenant and 4 Infantry squads. This could be upgraded to a Light Infantry Element at a cost of 90pts, granting all units the Infiltrate and Move Through Cover abilities.

A detachment could consist of a Command Element, and at least one Element of Infantry, Heavy Infantry or Cavalry/Mechanised Infantry as the minimum requirements. Borrowing from Commissar Vaughn's original post, for each element of these types taken, an element of artillery, armour or cavalry/mechanised infantry may be taken.

A little tweak here and there, and I reckon that could be a usable system

Gwedd
28-05-2008, 17:07
Well,


I am pretty much fine with the IF the way it is. If I could have any change or rule, then I would opt for a foctrine or rule that allows me take Eough Riders as troops choices. My goal is to build an Tallarn RR army, complete with towed heavy weapons, artillery, etc.

Respects,

jimyg
29-05-2008, 20:47
as far as steel legion armies go ( tanks counting as troops ) i think they should do something along the lines of what they did for wraithguard in the eldar codex. if you have 3 leman russ's for example you could count that as one of your mandatory troop selections, but with the caveat of the small arms rule.

something along the lines of haveing to role 3 sixes in a row to score a glanceing hit with abolter or lasgun. they had this rule allready in one of the miny steel legion codexs a while back.

but if you have only two russes then they count as two of your heavy choices but do not suffer from the small arms rule

there could also be an option to put your army general in a tank.