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Morentez
28-05-2008, 16:21
A few gamers from my local club (myself included) all seem to have decided to rekindle their interest warhammer fantasy at once...
We have each chosen the armies we wish to do and so far we have:
Ogre Kingdoms (Me)
Brettonians
Vampire Counts
Empire
High elves/ lizardmen undecided
Demons

we are all starting at 500pts and working our way up in 500pt jumps and i was wondering if anyone could give any advice on unit selection etc

my starting 500pts is almost exactly what GW put for their ogre border patrol on their website... 8 bulls and a butcher

any help or advice anyone can offer?

Feefait
28-05-2008, 16:28
There is an Ogre Tactica around here somewhere. It's actually really good. I don't play OK but I play against them frequently. My suggestions would be to be patient. I think OK doesn't come into their own until around 2000. My main strategies or suggestions wold be to work as hard as you can to ensure the charge, that bull rush can make the difference. Unfortunately your friends have chosen some of the "power" armies and so it's going to be a rough go. Just don't isolate your units or let them get picked apart, and for the love of gork get your charges!

SuperArchMegalon
28-05-2008, 16:29
Do you mean 500 points for regular games or 500 point Border Patrol? A Butcher may not be the general so you have to take a Bruiser regularly. For Border Patrol go with a Maneater.

As for general army selection, go to www.ogrestronghold.com and read up there, it's a site dedicated to Ogre Kingdoms. Ironguts a much better value than Bulls, that's important. The rest I'll leave to you.

Arodan
28-05-2008, 17:03
Sorry i can't help you with the 500 point army but here is my 1000 point list:
2 Bruisers one with Siegebreaker (I play mostly against Dwarfs)
2 units of 6 unequiped Bulls (against an army with fewer shooting you better use more smaller units)
10 Gnoblar-Trappers (They are great in my oppinion)
2 units of 2 Leadblechers (Are the first unit to get shot which buys you much time)
1 Gorger to kill those dangerous artillery units

fubukii
28-05-2008, 17:13
with ogres you will find out that running large units is silly most of the time.

Sure you get +1 str to your impact hit if you have a ogre behind you, but if you have 2 units of 3 ogres you get 3 extra impact hits, and 3 ogres worth of attacks, and the ability to get possible flank charges.

keep ogre units short and sweat 3-4 men with a bellower. Normally taking iron guts over bulls is a smart idea as well, the +2 str, and +1 ld really makes a huge difference

Sadly ogres are so pricey point wise its gonna be tough to make a good 500 pt list. My suggestion is talk to your mates and make them raise the pt cap to 750, still small and not hard to collect but this way you will have more then 2 units on the table.

pkain762
28-05-2008, 17:32
for 500 points just take a bruiser w/tenderiser

3 bulls and 3 ironguts and fill the rest of your points with as many gnoblars as you can

that's about all you can get for 500 points

kain

ps go to the OK tactica in the army tactics area and there is a bunch of good stuff.... i am on OK general myself so you'll see me, molarian, and a bunch of other OK guys that can help you out

TheDarkDuke
28-05-2008, 18:08
Not many people want to ever listen to this advice, and wonder why they barely win using Ogres. Ogres are the building material of the army, where Hunters, Sabretusk, Gnoblar, Trappers, Yhetee and Gorger are the glue. I have yet to loose a game with my Ogres, and I can tell you one nice sized unit of Ogres with smaller units else where is very good. I will give you a quick break down of the army:

Slaugtermaster: Must be 3000 points to even use this guy, so you won't ever use him 99.9% of the time, so don't worry about it.

Tyrant: Uber killing Ogre. You will find that a basic GW is usually your best bet with him, I use the Thunder Mace sometimes to good affect. Taking the Spangleshard or Wyrdstone Necklace is a must. Also magic gut plate stacks with heavy armour so you can get a ok save. If you take a Tyrant I would avoid spending points on any bruisers.

Bruiser: Your lower point game general, and the basics are the same as the Tyrant. I personally see no point in ever taking a brusier as a BsB.

Hunter: I love the model, and too many people dismiss them right off the bat. I would say always take the 2x sabretusk with him. Hunters are simply great flank charges, lone mage hunters, and war machine hunters. If your playing an army not set up like that, guess what these guys are great at taking down large targets and disrupting scouting units.

Butcher: Your mage, that can also fight to a reasonable degree. You can take them as scroll caddies, or semi fighter/casters, or pure casters. All of the combos are useful, and taking one is a must at 1000 points.

Bulls: Mandatory one unit. The set ups for these guys IMO are as followed. Keep them naked, or give them everything aka light armour and ironfists. If you have a couple points to spare or want extra attacks just additional hand weapons are an ok choice. But never take light armor without ironfist, and vice versa otherwise you are wasting points.

Ironguts: Hard unit, with a soft armor save. These will be a nice target for your enemy, I really only see use in taking Rag banner as a magic standard. A unit of 8 of these guys can pretty much make it into combat no matter what and cause a heck of a lot of pain.

Gnoblars: Great for table quater taking. Rear protection of your ogres, If you face a really shooty army they block los to ogres, and will slow you down but will save you a bunch of wounds should you line them up in longer lines.

Trappers: Your scouts, good at slowing down pesky scouts, add them on a flank with a Hunter and they are a great little combo.

Leadbelchers: A hit and miss unit. Great ability to blow away pretty much anything... if they don't misfire. Expensive and only ever take a unit of 2 or 3. Can hold down a flank, blast away fast cav with ease, and can scare the enemy from getting too close.

Yheete: The best flanking unit in the game. Unaffected by any terrain, 3 wounds, faster then ogres, and - to hit in combat, they are over looked by too many players. They simply are the best flankers in the game with their speed and immune to terrain.

Scraplauncher: Another hit and miss units, however KB catapult shots can be nice. A combo of this and a unit of leadbelchers creates a real "no fly zone" aka get into this area and there will be a ton of lead and sharp stuff being flung at you.

Maneaters: expensive so at lower points games not an option. However if you get up around the 3000 points mark, a unit of these guys is hard as nails. They could hold a flank for the entire game, add in mixed weapon options and they are very versatile. Even a single one can act as a decent flank protector or speed bump.

Gorger: Another war machine killer, lone mage hunter, mess with armies from behind. They are real beasts, when they show up, and disrupt any shooting from behind. Again a unit too many people do not take, that is nearly a must for continued success.

Slave Giant: Not as strong as a normal giant but it has great purpose. It creates another target for magic and ranged attacks. Either that unit of 8 ogres makes it relatively unscathed into combat and beats the snot out of me... or the giant makes it there and does the same.

On a whole, poison is your number one fear. Do not forget you cause fear (which people underestimate not taking more bulls in a larger unit... fear+outnumber=flee). You have so many things to protect your flanks and get after the ranged attacks that soften up Ogres, but people leave at home and wonder why they can't win against anything. So really take advantage of these units. Personally you are gonna get beat down in magic by everyone so I tend to field a nice butcher at 2000 points and 2 at 3000 points, just enough to slow down some offensive magic, and if I am lucky get the odd gut magic spell off. Take the extra points into units that will get up the board and take out the magic casters before they get 4,5,6 turns of casting in. Thats all I have for you at the moment hope it helps you out.

fubukii
28-05-2008, 19:39
thedarkduke - a unit of 8 ironguts is gonna be almost 400 pts, just as effective killing wise as 4 ironguts, when they panic you lose alot more points, insanlely vulnerable to being flanked and or redirected. You seriously are spending 200 pts to get +1 str on 4 impact hits, maybe.

the pros of running 2 units of 4 ironguts is much better, you now take up twice as much space, giving you more chances to flank, or being able to hit multiple units if need be.

Finnith
28-05-2008, 20:30
Played quite afew small games with my ogres and some larger ones so here some srarting advice.

500 Points that i took to a day tourney and didnt loose a game all day.

Bruiser: GW, Heavy armour, Longstrider. Quite able to make a real mess of most units at a small points battle, just dont charge a full unit of anything since you cant win but cavelry, warmachines or flankers get turned to paste.

4 bulls with extra hand weapons and a muscian. Against basic troops these seem to do better than ironguts and often win man of the match as they make it intact to combats over the scary looking elements in the army.

4 Ironguts with a standard and muscian. Heavy hitters, turns armour into a fine mist.

8-9 trappers: worth their weight in gold. Just dont get into combat unless you really have to.

Best part is you get the enitre army in the army deal batallion box.

Lazarian
29-05-2008, 02:48
If you get the rules and are allowed 1 rhinox cavalry with light armor and ironfist is tremendous. For 116 points you get d3 impact hits and 6 attacks 5 wounds and a 2+ HTH armor save, pretty much a wretched mess for any opponent.

TheDarkDuke
29-05-2008, 04:28
thedarkduke - a unit of 8 ironguts is gonna be almost 400 pts, just as effective killing wise as 4 ironguts, when they panic you lose alot more points, insanlely vulnerable to being flanked and or redirected. You seriously are spending 200 pts to get +1 str on 4 impact hits, maybe.

the pros of running 2 units of 4 ironguts is much better, you now take up twice as much space, giving you more chances to flank, or being able to hit multiple units if need be.

However, you protect your flanks, as this is a hammer unit (not that its a must for anyone... just throwing out something I have had success with and many do not have success at all with Ogres) any ranged fire on a unit of 4 needs 3 wounds to cause a leadership test, 8 is 6 wounds (better chance of not fleeing). Trying to outbeat a unit of 8 Ironguts in combat with a banner isn't very good... if unscathed thats US 24 Fear... plus their killing power = pretty much anything unit you run into is fear+outnumber and done. I am not saying this isn't expensive, nor am I saying this is something I always do, however is a very nasty unit if protected correctly.

I mentioned I rather have had great success running Ogre armies with one big hammer unit and then many multiple 3 ogre strong units. I tend to save points as I do not take max characters, or invest often in many of the pricer units. I very rarely play below 2000 points however, so I am just trying to give the OP some advice once he starts to build his force as he mentioned. At 500 he as very limited options, 1000 he can open up a little bit, but 2000 is where he will get options and needs the most advice IMO.

I do not disagree with your comment, as its what I do with the rest of my army after I form a block of 8 bulls or ironguts, or combo with tyrant and butcher in it.

fubukii
29-05-2008, 05:04
My mistake i think i misunderstood the advice you were trying to give ( i thought you were suggesting a whole army of 8+ ogre units), i think maybe just 1 unit of large ogres can be gotten away with, but if you run more then one you are leaving your flanks very wide open.

Vedar
29-05-2008, 18:14
TheDarkDuke,

Awsome write up. I've been looking for information like that. I wish all armys had a write up like that.

Arodan
29-05-2008, 19:46
TheDarkDuke,

Awsome write up. I've been looking for information like that. I wish all armys had a write up like that.

Well I know one internet site which actually has such informations on all armys (besides the newest ones). The only problem is that it is a German site so if you don't speak it or if you don't have some sort of translationprogramm it wont help you very much.
Anyways the site is: http://kompendium.tabletopwelt.de/wiki/Hauptseite
(it furthermore is written by one person and has only one oppinion on each army)

Mawchild
29-05-2008, 19:49
I had a couple of good games at 500pts with this list:

Bruiser: heavy armour & Siegebreaker
3 Bulls
22 Gnoblars with groinbiter
2 lead belchers
Gorger

Ogres are not really suited to 500pts but have patience and use it as a chance to learn what they can and can't do. Atleast you won't have to worry to much about fear tests.

Garg Foecrusher
29-05-2008, 20:09
I've played some 500 pts games with ogres, and I used like 1 Butcher, 20 Gnoblars, 4 Ironguts, and 3 Bulls. Went okay

Durloth
29-05-2008, 20:42
Ive been taking Ogres regularly to turnaments since right after the release of the book and I couldn`t disagree more with some of the above posts; I find that Ogres, unlike TK and a couple of other armies who get exponentially better the higher points game you play, Ogres perform at their best at around 500pts. Then most armies have rather low Ld. and little in the way of shooting.

One butcher is in my experience not enough to validate the points used on him, as the two free dice the opponent gets usually keeps your magic at bay by them selves. A bruiser with longstrider and a GW will take care of most things that your units can`t handle and can be kept safely within a unit only to be "catapulted out just at the right moment. I often send him warmachine-hunting if there isn`t anything he absolutely has to take care of, just for the points denial and fact that you want your other units to concentrate on your opponents main army.

Bulls- I run units of three with a musician and think of them as fast cav with some punch. They are there to bait, redirect and take flanks. With the bruiser in the unit they can also take fully ranked up troops, but only then.

Ironguts- Very handy in small games, where a unit uf cavalry foten can ruin your day without them. Can also fill a more heavy cav. -role in the army. In larger games I usually only take a single unit, as it costs as much as both a unit of Bulls and 20 Gnoblars.

Gnoblars- My favourite unit in the army (besides the mandatory Tyrant with Longstrider and Tenderiser). They pay for themselves just by staying out of the fight and taking a tablequarter, give you some much needed static combat resolution and two units working in concert will shoot down any t5 large tarhget out there. I`ve lost count of all the gigants the four units I usually field have killed:)

This is a list I`ve done well with at 500 pts. turneys in the past:

Bruiser- HA, GW, Longstrider -167pts.
3 Bulls- Musician, LA, Ironfist -139pts.
3 Ironguts- Musician -154pts.
20 Gnoblars -40pts.

Which adds up to exactly 500pts. and I really love getting a round total:)

Edit: Spelling.

Drongol
29-05-2008, 21:18
Honestly, I'm no good for anything under 2000 points, but I will say this much:

1. You will take a Tyrant.
a. You will give him a Tenderizer.
b. You will not give him a Wyrdstone Necklace or Spangleshard.

2. You will take 3 Butchers
a. At least two will have a Dispel Scroll
b. One will have a Bangstick, one will have a Skullmantle.
c. One might possibly have the Siegebreaker.

3. You will realize that there are only two viable Rare Choices.
a. Gorgers.
b. (where available) Bull Rhinox Riders

4. You will not take units of more than 4 Ogres.
a. This includes characters.

5. You will take lots and lots of Ironguts.

Really, that's about it. Using these rules, I have a pretty darned impressive record against just about every army, outside of Wood Elves.

Drongol

The Brusier
29-05-2008, 22:53
Just remember you will have major trouble with anything under 2000 pts, so don't expect to win all the time. Ogres don't have enough unit, and so rely solely on your expertise and you opponents ineptitude in 500 pts

Morentez
30-05-2008, 15:27
lots of good help coming in
thanks guys :)

bought the army book last night, buying my army within the next 2 days
as well as paints and glue etc as my orks ran me dry... dry i say! lol

solvay
30-05-2008, 15:55
if your just starting out then the batallion box is a fantastic buy .. if you get 2 of those + a tyrant and convert 3 bulls into butchers and a few gnoblars into trappers then straight away you have a decent 2k list

FranticDaemon
30-05-2008, 16:26
Just remember you will have major trouble with anything under 2000 pts, so don't expect to win all the time. Ogres don't have enough unit, and so rely solely on your expertise and you opponents ineptitude in 500 pts

Actualy ogres are good in 500pts, kinda sucks at 750 - 1750 and starts become good again at 2000. AND to


1. You will take a Tyrant.
a. You will give him a Tenderizer.
b. You will not give him a Wyrdstone Necklace or Spangleshard.

2. You will take 3 Butchers
a. At least two will have a Dispel Scroll
b. One will have a Bangstick, one will have a Skullmantle.
c. One might possibly have the Siegebreaker.

3. You will realize that there are only two viable Rare Choices.
a. Gorgers.
b. (where available) Bull Rhinox Riders

4. You will not take units of more than 4 Ogres.
a. This includes characters.

5. You will take lots and lots of Ironguts.
Drongol

I agree with most of things except :

Altho this build is most common and reliable, I know few people who used quite diffrent builds and were quite succesfull, so dont make it sound like this is the only way to build good OK army. Also I must disagree abut not giving Wyrdstone Necklace to Tyrant, when facing army with warmachines, WN is a must (IMO), and saved my tyrant lots of times against things like Hellfire sword and Frostblade, it also practically gives 1,5 additional wound to a tyrant (or 1,17 to a character with 4 wounds), and at 20 pts its a bargain. Also I almost allways give BoH to tyrant in adition to Tenderiser, since ability to shoot fanatics or shoot 1 unit from back rank of enemy unit to reduce rank bonus or even ability to use them as AHW against low T and AS unts are realy worth these few points.

Also about rare units - against armies with little to no shooting Maneters are realy effective (and you dont need gorgers that much), the best weapon option for them is Brace of Handguns (proven by mathammer and playtesting), since BoH counts as breace of pistols with 24" range rulewise, so they don't get to hit penalties for moving and shooting nor for long range, meaning that you almost allways will hit on 4+ when using multiple shots. And it also counts as AHW, so your Maneaters have 5 str5 ws4 attacks each, making them one of scriest unit in the game, 3 of them with tyrant in them will make your opponent s***t bricks if he doesn't get shoot along the way.

Chaos Mortal
30-05-2008, 20:06
ive seen a unit of 3 (possibley 4) Maneaters hold a flank for an intire game, brace of handguns and cathyan longswords are great combos aswell. I also find that if your Maneaters are etting shot the rest of your army isnt which works similarily to a giant and so the rest of your army is free to move on unscathed for the most part.

Thanks, Chaos Mortal

TheDarkDuke
30-05-2008, 21:06
Honestly, I'm no good for anything under 2000 points, but I will say this much:

1. You will take a Tyrant.
a. You will give him a Tenderizer.
b. You will not give him a Wyrdstone Necklace or Spangleshard.

**Yes you will take a Tyrant! Im not sure why you would give him the Tenderizer, I see it as an ok option, but a GW is cheaper and as affective. Without Wyrdstone or Spangleshard, how do you give your Tyrant any chance of surviving a Bolt Shot or Cannon Shot? As from range your best armor save is gonna be a 4+.

2. You will take 3 Butchers
a. At least two will have a Dispel Scroll
b. One will have a Bangstick, one will have a Skullmantle.
c. One might possibly have the Siegebreaker.

**I see logic in this at times, however I see no logic is Siegebreaker at all. Halfling Cookbook would be 100x better option. If your gonna give a Butcher a magic weapon, it should be the Butcher Only One.

3. You will realize that there are only two viable Rare Choices.
a. Gorgers.
b. (where available) Bull Rhinox Riders

**At 2000 or under I will agree. Bull Rhinox Riders are not in the Army Book, simple as that.

4. You will not take units of more than 4 Ogres.
a. This includes characters.

**As I mentioned earlier, this is merely a one minded opinion.

5. You will take lots and lots of Ironguts.

**Again a mistake I think too many Ogre players make, with a 5+ save only, most times bulls are cheaper and more flexible with options.

Really, that's about it. Using these rules, I have a pretty darned impressive record against just about every army, outside of Wood Elves.

Drongol

Just my thoughts, I am also wondering what your general Ogre list looks like, as it seems like many a list that have a extremely difficult time winning, due to excluding units. However this may be offset as you use the Rhinox Cav which really break the army.

Drongol
30-05-2008, 23:14
The Tenderizer exists as a way for Ogres to rack up CR from challenges. If your opponent does not accept your challenge, it's not as useful, admittedly, but that's more than fine.

Check the amount of wounds you save with the Tenderizer and compare it to the number of times you take a wound from it. I've found that I take more wounds from the item than I ever save. War Machines are only a problem with bad terrain or unskilled players, simply enough.

Grut's Sickle is an awful weapon. The Siegebreaker allows a Butcher to fight effectively, making him a decent value. Personally, I do not take it, but many others do.

The Halfling Cookbook is not a good value unless you're running a Slaughtermaster. Guess what you can't run at 2250 points?

Bulls are suited to screening, and yes, they can have a 4+ save in close combat. Guess what? That's not worth jack unless you can rack up some kills, and 16 (at the most!) S4 attacks do not frighten a ranked infantry unit. Ironguts, on the other hand, will cause wounds that stick and help you win combats. Of course, I must be a "beginning" player for thinking that.


Just my thoughts, I am also wondering what your general Ogre list looks like, as it seems like many a list that have a extremely difficult time winning, due to excluding units. However this may be offset as you use the Rhinox Cav which really break the army.

A "typical" 2250 point army for myself would look something like this. Bear in mind, I have absolutely no rulebook handy, so I'm sorry if my numbers are off.

Tyrant w/Tenderizer and Kineater

Butcher w/Dispell Scroll and Bangstick

Butcher w/Dispell Scroll and Skullmantle

Butcher w/Hellheart

2 units of 3 Naked Bulls w/Bellower

4 units of 3 Ironguts w/Banners and Look-Out Gnoblars

2 units of 20 Gnoblars

1 unit of Gnoblar Trappers

2 units of 3 Yhettees

2 Gorgers

Again, points might be off, but this is the basic core of the list. If we're playing somewhere that Bull Rhinox Riders are allowed, I might take 2 units of 1, but aside from that, it's pretty simple. And, oddly enough, it wins far more often than it loses. And looks quite a bit like Phil Manwaring's OK list, as a matter of fact.

But, then again, I must be completely new to the army.

Drongol

TheDarkDuke
31-05-2008, 00:04
I never was implying you were new to the army. Just that there were some ideas that many people who struggle with Ogres use, and some I personally did not think about. Sorry if I came across as putting you down or anything, simply trying to pick your mind for ways I may try incorporate. Glad to see you run with gnoblars, trappers, yhetee and gorgers. I preach of there usefulness first and foremost to anyone struggling with Ogres.

Now that I think of it, that I didn't mention earlier, the extra gnoblars... I have varying views on them, and would be curious to see your views on them as well. So here is mine:

Sword-Gnoblar: Personally think they are a waste of points, I do not think I have ever fielded one at all.

Tooth-Gnoblar: Have tried the odd time, but I don't see them as very worthwhile either, perhaps these are something that at higher end games if you were going really magic heavy with ogres might be useful.

Luck-Gnoblar: I actually really like this, the re-roll one dice per game is actually really good for me personally. Maybe thats why I see more use in the Wyrdstone or Spangleshard on a Tyrant?

Look-Out Gnoblar: Useful with a hero in the unit, I do not field them otherwise, one with the Tyrant most times.

Also on a side note, have you tried(and if so) what are your experiences using a Hunter combined with the trappers, as I know very very few try this. For me it has worked quite well.

Conotor
31-05-2008, 01:21
For 500 points, try to work some knoblar fighters to muck around so your aroundrs can get charges.

Drongol
31-05-2008, 17:35
Also on a side note, have you tried(and if so) what are your experiences using a Hunter combined with the trappers, as I know very very few try this. For me it has worked quite well.

Hunters are god-awful. Seriously. You're sacrificing a Butcher (a useful character) for a model that cannot even pivot and fire his spear launcher, two fast cavalry no-armor models, and the ability to take a second unit of Trappers.

Really, of those three things you get, the only useful one is the second unit of Trappers. And they ain't worth 150 points to get.

Drongol