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Plebian
28-05-2008, 22:25
One thing I'm surprised more people have not mentioned is the ability of players to pull models out of CC that are not engaged. This means that low initiative creatures like Orks or Kroot will almost always get their full number of attacks. This kinda goes against the fluff, as creatures like Orks are supposed to be very deadly but slow. It also removes the importance of initiative and i see fast but fragile armies like Dark Eldar struggling against large, slow hordes. What do you guys think? Not a big deal, or large shift in the fundamentals of close combat?

Stezerok
28-05-2008, 22:58
Yes I think it is a very big deal actually. My Eldar are not happy about this at all lol. Combine this with the fact that now every unit has a form of Counter-Assault, and Horde armies suddenly become stupid how good they can be in CC. It essentially means that in a one on one situation, you can only hope that quite simply your guys just kill off more of them than they do of you, and that you can win combat that way. I guess the Initiative part is really just to say that the the player with the greater Initiative gets to maximize their number of attacks (assuming that the high Initiative unit is smaller in number). I think it is kind of dumb to be honest, I think that have counter-assault for every unit is fine enough... but in the end all it means for smaller more elite armies is that they can simply never make a lone assault. Period. We must always use shooting units in conjunction with assaults or have two assault units ramble in at the same time...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

njfed
29-05-2008, 00:10
I'm fine with it.

Initiative 2 Necron warriors, line up for CC training! On the double!

Gensuke626
29-05-2008, 02:06
I play orks, so I don't see it as a terrible problem. It means that people are going to need to be more careful with fragile assault like Harlies and 'Stealers. Can't just ram harlies in and hope that you clear your killzone, now you need to use them as a scalpel.

Initiative is still very important for the system. After all, Fists still strike at I1 from what I hear, so you can still use the Casualty system to deny PF attacks if you'd like, or to neuter an IC in CC if it's a fister. Similarly if it's an IC with a PW that strikes before you, you can remove just the right casualties to deny maximum attacks...

big squig
29-05-2008, 05:27
Chances are that because every unit has counter attack now, 90% of units will have all their models in the kill zone anyways.

Koryphaus
29-05-2008, 05:31
Initiative is still very important for the system. After all, Fists still strike at I1 from what I hear, so you can still use the Casualty system to deny PF attacks if you'd like, or to neuter an IC in CC if it's a fister. Similarly if it's an IC with a PW that strikes before you, you can remove just the right casualties to deny maximum attacks...

Thats the system we use now. But apparently, no more. According to rumours, every model able to attack in cc at the start of the round gets to fight unless they have been killed.

There is no more removing attacks because the killzone has been cleared.

Mitheral
29-05-2008, 06:38
I play orks, so I don't see it as a terrible problem. It means that people are going to need to be more careful with fragile assault like Harlies and 'Stealers. Can't just ram harlies in and hope that you clear your killzone, now you need to use them as a scalpel.

Initiative is still very important for the system. After all, Fists still strike at I1 from what I hear, so you can still use the Casualty system to deny PF attacks if you'd like, or to neuter an IC in CC if it's a fister. Similarly if it's an IC with a PW that strikes before you, you can remove just the right casualties to deny maximum attacks...

From what I've seen this is wrong, clearing the zone doesn't deny attacks. As long as you were able to attack at the beginning of the turn you are guaranteed your attacks.

zeqe
29-05-2008, 11:52
From what I've seen this is wrong, clearing the zone doesn't deny attacks. As long as you were able to attack at the beginning of the turn you are guaranteed your attacks.

Right, it's sort of wonky in a few ways though, and this could just be due to the way we've been interpreting it. The way it's written (wish I had it with me right now for a direct quote) indicates that you have to keep track of models that are in combat at the beginning of the player turn (this is an important distinction from 4th) since you can only allocate attacks against models in the assault phase that they were in combat with at the beginning of the turn. So if you have models like this:

MA,MB,MC <-----C2
MD,ME,MF <---- C1
XX,X1,XX
XX,XX,XX

All of the Ms can allocate their attacks against Xs, but not against the Cs that are charging them in THIS ASSAULT PHASE (!!!) since they were not in combat with them at the beginning of this turn. Now, if the Xs strike before the Ms and kill MD, ME, MF then MA, MB, MC will still get to attack when their initiative rolls around, however if X1 managed to kill MD/ME/MF by himself the other Xs could still kill any of the other Ms (regardless of the relative differences in initiative, assuming both parties survive to that point to begin with) since they had been locked in combat at the beginning of the turn.

Here's the rub though: None of the Ms can attack the Cs.

Now, we could be misinterpreting the way it's written but it seems pretty clear to me based on the fact that at various points throughout the book it uses the word turn to refer to the player turn and the names of the appropriate phases to refer to each phase in turn, and in fact in the first few pages of the book I believe it even says that "the turn" refers to the player turn much like the BGB.

I hope this horribly drawn ascii example helped at all.

A.S.modai
29-05-2008, 15:28
I'm trying to get this straight.

It seems to me like it is almost similar to 4th with a subtle difference.

It's determined who "can" attack at the beginning, not who will. So, your high initiative eldar come in and get their attacks on my orks. Even if I take all the boyz in btb as casualties any boyz that were 2" from the dead btb boyz would still get their attacks. Where the dead don't get to do anything.

In 4th I could remove the btb guys and get no attacks back.

Am I right? It doesn't seem wrong to me considering the randomness of the casualty removal process.

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 16:58
I can't see how you say its against fluff?

It's realistic - two squads of enemies running towards each other, they clash.
Rather than one squad making a cup of tea and *bam* 6 of 10 guys didn't spot the 40 Orks running towards them roaring "WAAAAAARGH".

"Oh hai, did you want sugar wi..." *chop*

eriochrome
29-05-2008, 16:59
Right, it's sort of wonky in a few ways though, and this could just be due to the way we've been interpreting it. The way it's written (wish I had it with me right now for a direct quote) indicates that you have to keep track of models that are in combat at the beginning of the player turn (this is an important distinction from 4th) since you can only allocate attacks against models in the assault phase that they were in combat with at the beginning of the turn. So if you have models like this:

MA,MB,MC <-----C2
MD,ME,MF <---- C1
XX,X1,XX
XX,XX,XX

All of the Ms can allocate their attacks against Xs, but not against the Cs that are charging them in THIS ASSAULT PHASE (!!!) since they were not in combat with them at the beginning of this turn. Now, if the Xs strike before the Ms and kill MD, ME, MF then MA, MB, MC will still get to attack when their initiative rolls around, however if X1 managed to kill MD/ME/MF by himself the other Xs could still kill any of the other Ms (regardless of the relative differences in initiative, assuming both parties survive to that point to begin with) since they had been locked in combat at the beginning of the turn.

Here's the rub though: None of the Ms can attack the Cs.

Now, we could be misinterpreting the way it's written but it seems pretty clear to me based on the fact that at various points throughout the book it uses the word turn to refer to the player turn and the names of the appropriate phases to refer to each phase in turn, and in fact in the first few pages of the book I believe it even says that "the turn" refers to the player turn much like the BGB.

I hope this horribly drawn ascii example helped at all.

That does not seem to make any sense at all. Is this only for units which are already locked since if not you could never attack your chargers since they do not come into base to base until during the assault phase?

This interpretation of the rule would make tarpit units really powerful in controlling combats. My nurglings charge you this turn and on my next turn my expensive Bloodletters get you without any fear of return hits.

Latro_
29-05-2008, 18:32
Basically as i understand it, there is still an init order to fighting. However you can remove models from whoever you like. So against big units the whole killing all your enaged models to stop return attacks is gone as he can remove them from the back. If of course you are attacking just say 10 orks who are 'all' enaged and you fight first and kill 5 of them then only 5 can attack back.

Also I is still used for running an opponent down.

So really the only nerf to I is against bigger units which can absorb the kills.

big squig
29-05-2008, 19:55
I'm trying to get this straight.

It seems to me like it is almost similar to 4th with a subtle difference.

It's determined who "can" attack at the beginning, not who will. So, your high initiative eldar come in and get their attacks on my orks. Even if I take all the boyz in btb as casualties any boyz that were 2" from the dead btb boyz would still get their attacks. Where the dead don't get to do anything.

In 4th I could remove the btb guys and get no attacks back.

Am I right? It doesn't seem wrong to me considering the randomness of the casualty removal process.
You sir are correct.

big squig
29-05-2008, 19:56
Seriously though, in almost every combat, unless you're fighting 50 conscripts, almost everyone is going to be in the killzone anyways thanks to counter attack.

A.S.modai
29-05-2008, 21:39
@Big

True. I can't see how this is bad. Other than it may make being faster not quite a beat-all like it is now.

That seems a bit more balanced to me as I have seen numerous different armies get slowly chewed up and not do anything back (orks vs necron wraiths)

The casualty rules combined with the Ld mods make this seem streamlined to me. I have yet to playtest but i like what i'm hearing.

zeqe
29-05-2008, 22:20
That does not seem to make any sense at all. Is this only for units which are already locked since if not you could never attack your chargers since they do not come into base to base until during the assault phase?

This interpretation of the rule would make tarpit units really powerful in controlling combats. My nurglings charge you this turn and on my next turn my expensive Bloodletters get you without any fear of return hits.

My example only applies to units that were locked in (a previous) combat at the beginning of a turn as it applies to chargers, if it's a fresh combat for that turn you will of course get to fight your attackers, sorry. Should have clarified that.

Tarpit units are stupidly OP in 5th for this reason. There's nothing that makes me giggle more in 5th than tarpitting a S3/S4 unit with a wraithlord (now that powerfists have been nerfed a bit, they're less of a worry imo) then charging in a unit that I would have never considered willfully engaging in CC with in 4th (Guardian Jetbikes, Guardians in general) just to push the combat resolution more in my favor... I like the realism it engenders, it brings concepts like "Double Envelopment" into a game like 40k that has been lacking anything but broad strategic moves (Refused Flank, et al) for a long time.

Mandragola
30-05-2008, 02:22
I am looking at the option of fielding a whole hell of a lot of kroot in 5th. Combining the new response move and kill removal I think I'll do rather a lot of damage.

I might mix in a few kroot hounds, not sure. These have a higher initiative so they can attack, be removed as casualties, and thereby keep kroot alive to attack.

On the other hand, the kroot do have guns. Guns are handy.

I was thinking of taking about a hundred kroot in 1500 points in 5 units (I have to take 1 unit of fire warriors). That's about half my points once shapers are included, so I'd have a horde army with plenty of points left for hammerheads and maybe the odd crisis team. It might work.

Stezerok
30-05-2008, 02:26
I was thinking of taking about a hundred kroot in 1500 points in 5 units (I have to take 1 unit of fire warriors). That's about half my points once shapers are included, so I'd have a horde army with plenty of points left for hammerheads and maybe the odd crisis team. It might work.

And they can all Outflank! ah... :D

Throw in some Pathfinders and Stealth Suits to complement, and it might be pretty interesting to see...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

zeqe
30-05-2008, 02:33
After reading through the shop copy again today (as I recommend anyone else should do if they have a GW store nearby) I noticed that instead of "turn" it says "fight" in a few places.

The section where it describes who can allocate attacks to whom says "Units may allocate attacks only against enemy units they were engaged with at the beginning of the fight."

Hooray nebulous wording! Does that mean since the first assault phase that the oldest assault in any assault involving more than one unit began? Or what? Maybe I missed a precedent set earlier in that section but I did my best to try and nail it down with a certainty today... it seems we have been playing it right thus far.

On a related topic I also noticed that if a model equipped with a powerfist chooses to he can still deactivate his powerfist and count his (for example) boltpistol as the "main" weapon he is using. Interestingly enough the (deactivated) powerfist appears to act as an additional CCW for the purpose of granting an extra attack in this case, and the model would attack at his normal initiative etc (much like 4th). This is good news to any space marine Sgts that are faced with a lot of low toughness I3 enemies and want to get as many attacks in as they can.