PDA

View Full Version : Would like to clarify base sizes in 5th ed.



spaint2k
29-05-2008, 09:04
So I'm planning an ork army with a strong oddboy theme, and my "nobz" squad would actually include some counts-as figures, like a big mek, an ork pilot, and a warlord, all of which are mounted on 40mm bases.

Since all the threads with actual 5th ed information have ballooned to such enormous size, I'm having trouble finding how this would actually be dealt with in 5th ed.

Any comments?

Steve

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 09:30
If your opponent agrees, you can use bigger bases. Otherwise you have to use those supplied as standard. This should be interpreted as what they are sold with today, not what your terminators came on 20 years ago.

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 09:33
So by the usual ****-poor wording of the (completely idiotic) "rule", this idea of mine is perfectly acceptable, because my Big Mek came with a 40mm base, right? I mean, the rule doesn't refer to the unit type having a particular base size (eg. Ork Nobz: 25mm round base)...

Steve

Darnok
29-05-2008, 09:48
If your opponent agrees, you can use bigger bases. Otherwise you have to use those supplied as standard.

Big Mek, Ork Pilot and Warlord are sold with a 40 mm base.

The issue is: normal nobs are not. This is quite an interesting question, as using anything but the "normal" miniatures opens a can of worms regarding base size. What if I want to use anything beside the normal nobs (as here), which is not sold on 25 mm bases? It is a damn loophole: either enforce the base size of the unit in question - then every "counts as" model has to stand on a 25 mm base, instead of the one it was supplied with, thus breaking the rule; OR allowing the use of other models, which possibly are supplied with bigger/different bases, thus breaking the rules of the original unit.

While I'm happy with the most things GW does at the moment, this "rule" concerning base size for 5th Ed. is a plain stupid thing. It is not enforcable and should just be ignored.


This should be interpreted as what they are sold with today, not what your terminators came on 20 years ago.

And why? No offense intended, but anybody forcing me out of playing with miniatures that were "legal" a month ago, but are not now because of base size would get a rude comment from me at least.

Vovin
29-05-2008, 10:40
The magnificent Basetransformer deluxe (TM), brought to you by "Ruleslawyer INC.":

39923

Plastic Rat
29-05-2008, 10:46
And why? No offense intended, but anybody forcing me out of playing with miniatures that were "legal" a month ago, but are not now because of base size would get a rude comment from me at least.

I'd say the rule makes a great douche-bag filter. Simply have a couple of minis in your army on the wrong size bases (do it all artistic like for effect), then when some twit freaks out and refuses to let you play them because of it, well at least you didn't waste all your time setting up and rolling for missions and all the rest. The game against them would likely have sucked.

Then again... I've heard stories of people putting terminators on smaller bases or some other crap so they can get some minor advantage in deepstriking or so forth. In the end, I wouldn't play against a person like this for very long either.

I simply plan to ignore it completely in game and whine vociferously about it online, just like I do with most of GWs idiocy when it comes to rules.

Hellfury
29-05-2008, 11:00
If your opponent agrees, you can use bigger bases. Otherwise you have to use those supplied as standard. This should be interpreted as what they are sold with today, not what your terminators came on 20 years ago.

Well that MIGHT be considered okay if GW was consistent with their basing sizes for the same models.

a dozen years ago, eldar jetbikes came on 25mm hexagonal flight bases.

Fast forward to now.
Eldar jetbikes are haphazardly supplied with either a 30mm flight base OR a 60+mm flight base...

I am sure it doesn't take a doctorate in physics to understand how this rule, if it is indeed in the new rulebook, makes a complete mockery of itself and by extension, GW.

Simply put, if this is indeed a rule in the new rulebook, it should be consistently and universally ignored. Nay, ignored isn't a strong enough word, mocked endlessly is a better way of treating this rule.

And by the way, your example of terminators is a contentious one.

Plastic loyalist terminator kits come with both 25mm and 40mm bases. Likewise, Metal terminators are still being supplied with 25mm bases in the blister.

Again, no consistency to logically enforce this supposed rule.

Levett
29-05-2008, 11:09
Another sound way to mess this rule up is if you build a model from scratch... what do i use then? a 60mm? :p

Technically speaking it didn't come with a base of any form, however... common sense should dictate that if its a normal PA marine then it should use a 25mm base. This rule will cause too many arguments.

EarlGrey
29-05-2008, 11:28
Then again... I've heard stories of people putting terminators on smaller bases or some other crap so they can get some minor advantage in deepstriking or so forth. In the end, I wouldn't play against a person like this for very long either.

They can't do that in 4th edition anyway. Rules say you can't mount something on a base smaller than the one it comes with, only larger.

Anyway, I don't see what the fuss is about the "new" rule in 5th edition. It's an "if your opponent agrees", which basically means "idiots need not apply" as someone already said. This rule is becoming a lot of fuss about nothing.

The one thing I'm interested in is whether the rule forces you to use round bases, but I believe it's all about size. :)

Plastic Rat
29-05-2008, 11:43
They can't do that in 4th edition anyway. Rules say you can't mount something on a base smaller than the one it comes with, only larger.

Correct. The person who did this was blatantly cheating (especially since he was using the new plastic terminators and not the old metal ones which DID come out on smaller bases). The player specifically stated that he was doing it to gain an advantage in game. I can't remember what the advantage was, as I'd switched off by that point, but I think it might have been to do with placement in deepstriking.

My post was meant to illustrate that GW may have made the rule in order to deal with some perceived loophole or imbalance. Doesn't make it any less retarded.

Of course since most of us haven't actually laid eyes on the new rulebook, we could just be getting all excited about nothing.

IJW
29-05-2008, 11:53
The player specifically stated that he was doing it to gain an advantage in game. I can't remember what the advantage was, as I'd switched off by that point, but I think it might have been to do with placement in deepstriking.
I believe the technical term for the advantage gained when deepstriking with 25m bases is 'having the entire unit taken out by a single Plasma Cannon shot next turn'... ;)

StrikerFox
29-05-2008, 12:13
i just played a guy with a deathwatch kill team whose sergeant was mounted on a dreadnaught base... thus letter all of his unit to hit in cc, even himself.. a lil far fetched, but me being the "good sport" throughout the game, let him do wat he wanted... i ended up losing, but watever :P

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 12:18
One can only wonder at the exact wording of the rule because there are a few non-vehicle models that do not come with a base at all such as the Trygon or the old Fantasy scorpion. My Trygon has a base made from a CD spindle (it doubles as a carrying case), while my Hive Tyrant has the legs replaced by the scorpion entirely, making it impossible to fit on the standard base. I also have just finished making the molds for my bike bases (using a 40mm round and square base) and was going to pour and have stable and fancy bases for all of my Dark Eldar and Marine bikers. As noted above, I also have Terminators on different sized bases, some of which are still supplied on the smaller ones but placed on a larger one such as the Terminator Captain. In that case the wording of the rule become paramount as you know tournaments will see all kinds of bonehead rulings beyond all logic (such as all Terminators must be based on 40mm bases added to a ruling that no model may be on a larger base than which they came and suddenly many people have a problem). My planned conscripts would have been affected as each one would have been on a 40mm base consisting of two models, one with a gun and a second without a gun but armed with an extra power pack or perhaps an extra magazine depending on if I convert and any lasguns to autoguns. Fortunately for me my group is great and anyone abusing that rule will quickly find themselves without a game, but there are many folks out there who are not so lucky. While I may express some concerns regarding this, I will wait until I read it in the book before complaining.

McMullet
29-05-2008, 12:38
The magnificent Basetransformer deluxe (TM), brought to you by "Ruleslawyer INC.":

39923
Awesome idea (and use of MS Paint)!

On another note, since GW sells bags of bases, you can buy a bag of whatever sized bases you want with your models. That way, GW are "supplying" you with with every size (and indeed shape) of base that they produce. So, say, if you want Warhammer Fantasy 50mm square bases for your Grots, you buy some at the same time - thusly you are supplied with Grots, along with 50mm square bases.

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 12:45
If you tried that on me I'd slap you for coming up with such a great idea before I did. Then I'd shamelessly steal it.

dyslexia
29-05-2008, 14:47
And by the way, your example of terminators is a contentious one.

Plastic loyalist terminator kits come with both 25mm and 40mm bases. Likewise, Metal terminators are still being supplied with 25mm bases in the blister.

Again, no consistency to logically enforce this supposed rule.I can't comment on the metal Terminators, but the issue with the plastic ones, I think, is people misinterpreting the purpose of the small bases.

As someone who has recently purchased and put together a plastic Terminator squad, what I had in the box was:

- Enough parts to make 5 Terminators
- Parts (1 part, really) for a Teleport Homer
- 5 40mm bases
- 4 25mm bases

Note that it did not come with enough 25mm bases for the Terminators. Also note that the Teleport Homer is meant to be based on a 25mm base. Also note that, if you've bought enough GW boxes, you will quickly come to the conclusion that 4 25mm bases is the smallest number they will give you in a box. They will never snap off just 1 and put it in the box, even if you only need 1; they simply throw in the sprues of 4 until you have at least as many bases as you'll need, and if that means you get a few extra, so be it.

Logically, it follows that the 25mm bases provided in the plastic Terminator kits are not meant for the Terminators. They're there to provide 1 base for the Teleport Homer, while the Terminators are meant to be based on the 40mm bases.

This doesn't even get into the fact that most of the legs for the plastic Terminators would look ridiculous on a 25mm base. At least 4 of the 5 that come with, for example, the regular Terminator set (non-CC) are modeled in a wide enough stance that you would have a hard time getting even part of both feet on the base at once, and you would certainly have the majority of both feet sticking out off the base, with likely only the heels touching the base.

And to reverse my decision and comment on the metal terminators: are you sure they're "new"? I've seen blisters of metal models still in circulation in stores that were clearly manufactured 5+ years ago, if not more.

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 14:51
It's simple..

COMPREHENSIVE guide by GW:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/orks/gallery/1/

It's quite clear what models are what and the base sizes for them.

Mega armour - as with terminators = 40mm.
Nobs = 25mm.


And why? No offense intended, but anybody forcing me out of playing with miniatures that were "legal" a month ago, but are not now because of base size would get a rude comment from me at least.

I have a unit of 16 mummies from 15 years ago. They are no longer a unit choice in any Undead army. Be as rude as I may, I can't use mummies.

Extreme maybe, but it highlights the point. If you want to play by the rules (ie 5th) then you play the rules. No one is forcing you do do anything.

Royal Tiger
29-05-2008, 14:58
damn, well thats a VERY large chunk of my army mounted on Warmachine 30m bases completely ruined, and my power armourd commanders mounted on 40mm bases, thanks GW, will you be sending me all the replacement 25mm bases free of charge?

EarlGrey
29-05-2008, 15:04
Note that it did not come with enough 25mm bases for the Terminators. Also note that the Teleport Homer is meant to be based on a 25mm base. Also note that, if you've bought enough GW boxes, you will quickly come to the conclusion that 4 25mm bases is the smallest number they will give you in a box. They will never snap off just 1 and put it in the box, even if you only need 1; they simply throw in the sprues of 4 until you have at least as many bases as you'll need, and if that means you get a few extra, so be it.

Actually I bought a box of Tzeentch Flamers two weeks ago and recieved only 3 bases (3 square and 3 round they had removed one of each).
I've had numerous times in the past when I've only been given 3 or less rather than the full 4.
Sorry, just thought I would point that out. :)

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:05
damn, well thats a VERY large chunk of my army mounted on Warmachine 30m bases completely ruined, and my power armourd commanders mounted on 40mm bases, thanks GW, will you be sending me all the replacement 25mm bases free of charge?

Surely you had them in the first place?

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 15:17
Oh, like skeleton ninjas and assassins? Or how about skeleton heroes? Or how about Zoats, Jokaro, assassult cannon armed sentinels, lasgun armed Eldar Guardians, 40K Slann, goblin boar chariots, or the daddy of them all, the entire Squat list? The fact is that the game changes and units are added and removed. Some units change and may require older models to be tweaked accordingly, as frustrating as it may be. As Taerij says, the rules are what they are and if you wish to play by them you have to obey them all, otherwise you'll be using a house rule which may not be accepted everywhere. In cases where you have regular group, then it may not be a huge issue to use a few little house rules to save you the hassle of rebasing potentially a huge chunk of your collection but in situations like tournaments or similar venues, you may not have that option and ultimately your two choices there, as bad as they may be, are to convert or not participate. Believe me I understand your frustration on this as I have lots of models in that very boat. Heck, I even have old GW produced minis with illegal options, such as my beloved Marine with a shuriken catapult. I have converted other Marines to have similar weapons such as a kroot rifle, grenade launcher, pulse rifle, AK-47 shoota, flesh borer, shuriken pistol, and lasgun (he's the artillery spotter) to give it that old Rogue Trader feel that they took weapons from worthy foes. None of these are legal but were fun conversions that my regular foes enjoy seeing and let me use. However, not a single one of them are legal at many tournaments, even with the "counts as" rule simply because nowhere since Rogue Trader are Marines allowed to carry such weapondry. I use them when I can but understand that strict rules forbid their use.

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:22
I'd say the rule makes a great douche-bag filter. Simply have a couple of minis in your army on the wrong size bases (do it all artistic like for effect), then when some twit freaks out and refuses to let you play them because of it, well at least you didn't waste all your time setting up and rolling for missions and all the rest. The game against them would likely have sucked.

How true.

In fact, the thought almost compels me to go ahead and make my Ork army using these guys as stand-ins for nobs (purely because I both own and really like the models, but have no other way of using them in an army). If anyone complains I will happily concede the game and put all my models away. Preferably after my opponent has deployed.

"Hey, you win. That was great! Wanna play again? Cool! You win again!"

Steve

DarkstarSabre
29-05-2008, 15:30
I have a unit of 16 mummies from 15 years ago. They are no longer a unit choice in any Undead army. Be as rude as I may, I can't use mummies.



I have a unit of Space Marine Terminators from over ten years ago. They are supplied with 25mm round bases. Sure, they look better on larger bases. But since they've stopped selling bags of specific sized bases I would have to buy rather a lot of their 'all bases' bags to get a comparable amount of 40mm round bases that I used to get with just one bag. Would you like to pay for that?

No?

There we go.

This rule is a joke. If someone gets anal about this rule then I will quite happily show them the door.

Also, you have a unit of Mummies from 15 years ago. I suppose you also have some skeletons, skeleton horsemen, skeleton archers and some skeleton chariots.

Well my friend, a Tomb Kings army is for you!

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:31
There's two approaches to this.

Personally I don't care about the base sizes as long as it is sensible and the player isn't purposely doing it to abuse rules. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Jervis Johnson is always about the fun and the game. He probably feels the same regarding bases, but there's the issue of players and events that aren't so casual.

When the game or player isn't casual, there has to be a rule. When a player abuses a base, you have to have that commandment to fall back on. Not everyone has sportsmanship, empathy or a sense of humour. Sadly these people have to be catered for! :)

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:32
Oh, like skeleton ninjas and assassins? Or how about skeleton heroes?<SNIP>
As Taerij says, the rules are what they are and if you wish to play by them you have to obey them all.

The first part I quoted above is kind of irrelevant. The issue is clearly not one of models that have become obsolete. It's rather one of GW's complete inconsistency in providing BASES with their miniatures.

The smart way for GW to make a boneheaded rule like this one would be to specify the correct base size for each and every unit, in the same way that WFB has specific frontages for different unit types.

Unfortunately, the lack of clarity is what makes your second point ("the rules are what they are") somewhat of a joke, since the rule is laughable and in actual fact only serves to penalise interesting conversions and ideas like the one by the guy above about mounting two guys on a single base.

The issue of "using the bases provided" makes no sense. My Killa Kan didn't come with a base. My ork pilot WAS provided with a 40mm base but I'm using him as a nob (which are mounted on 25mm bases): is there a problem here? My metal Chaos Terminators (which are still available from GW) were provided with both 25mm AND 40mm bases - which one of the provided bases "counts as" the "provided base" referred to in the rule?

Steve

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:36
My Terminators came with no dice. How do they roll dice?

Royal Tiger
29-05-2008, 15:37
Surely you had them in the first place?
I did have them yes, but there now mounted on my German grenadiers, and I ain't gonna rip them off them just to make GW happy, the point is I shouldn't have to rip my bases off ANYONE

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:41
No one is forcing you to rip them off either.

Just.. don't take them to GT :)

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:42
My Terminators came with no dice. How do they roll dice?

You clearly think I'm a full-on retard.

Steve

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:43
The issue of "using the bases provided" makes no sense. My Killa Kan didn't come with a base.

I think you are just taking it a bit too literally.

Triggerdog
29-05-2008, 15:45
The magnificent Basetransformer deluxe (TM), brought to you by "Ruleslawyer INC.":

39923

I approve of this , lol

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:46
I think you are just taking it a bit too literally.

Yes, you're right. We should be taking the rules metaphorically.

Steve

Royal Tiger
29-05-2008, 15:47
No one is forcing you to rip them off either.

Just.. don't take them to GT :)
thats one solution, but what do I do if I want to play in a GW store?, since the staff are there to make sure rules are enforced, and my entire army is breaking one of there rules


The issue of "using the bases provided" makes no sense. My Killa Kan didn't come with a base
Neither did mine, so I mounted them on 60mm bases because the 40mm you usually get is pathetic and the Kan doesn't fit on them, so even my 3 killa kans break GW's precious rules

looks like all my armies are doomed because of bases

looks like GW has found the perfect way to ruin everyones fun all at the same time, instead of codex by codex, which was taking too long for them obviously

IJW
29-05-2008, 15:52
thats one solution, but what do I do if I want to play in a GW store?, since the staff are there to make sure rules are enforced, and my entire army is breaking one of there rules
It's up to your opponent. Any opinions that shop staff have on the matter are totally irrelevant. :rolleyes:

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 15:53
Yes, you're right. We should be taking the rules metaphorically.

Steve

Precisely.

Your model arrives with no base... look at the GW 'comprehensive' guide to see what provision they present.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/orks/gallery/images/killa_kan_lg.jpg

Since that's what GW use and is current, it must be the mysterious provided base size.

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 15:54
Actually spaint2k, I was the one who mentioned putting the conscripts two to a base. :D As far as the whole first part of my last post, yes it was a tangent to Taerij's comment about the mummies. I then steered back on topic and the whole rules are what they are bit was not intended to be the rather hilarious joke it is, but I'll take credit for the intent just the same if you want. I had simply meant that in short Taerij was making the point that we use the rules as laid down by GW and no amount of complaining makes any difference as we all use the same official rules.

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:55
Precisely.

Your model arrives with no base... look at the GW 'comprehensive' guide to see what provision they present.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/orks/gallery/images/killa_kan_lg.jpg

Since that's what GW use and is current, it must be the mysterious provided base size.

And what about my other two examples, O Wise One? What can the metaphorical depths of your wisdom say with regard to those?

Steve

Lordmonkey
29-05-2008, 15:55
I think you are just taking it a bit too literally.


Yes, you're right. We should be taking the rules metaphorically.

In WHFB, a Steam Tank is technically destroyed the moment it enters close combat, because technically it is a war machine in close combat with no crew.

This is obviously ********** stupid, but it's happened in tournaments nonetheless.

Sod literal vs metaphorical, or RAW vs RAI, or whatever. Before you try to define the 'rules', define your environment. Are you in a casual environment? Tournament? GW store?

If someone wants to abuse the wrong base size in any way, point this out during the game. If it really doesn't matter, why make a big deal of it?

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 15:59
Actually spaint2k, I was the one who mentioned putting the conscripts two to a base. :D

So it was. And a tragedy that you might not actually do it for fear of encountering the kind of opponent who'd take offence because of a poorly-written, poorly-conceived "rule" that someone at GW tossed into the rulebook on a whim.



I then steered back on topic and the whole rules are what they are bit was not intended to be the rather hilarious joke it is, but I'll take credit for the intent just the same if you want.

Awesome, credit given. :)



If someone wants to abuse the wrong base size in any way, point this out during the game. If it really doesn't matter, why make a big deal of it?

You're right of course, and if someone was abusing the base sizes (regardless of a rule or lack thereof) I'd be sure to point it out.

The problem is that GW put the damn thing in the book as a rule, which means there WILL be people out there making a big deal of it even when it's not a problem.

Steve

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 16:02
And what about my other two examples, O Wise One? What can the metaphorical depths of your wisdom say with regard to those?

Steve

If you need more examples. Same process:

Terminators: 40mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_terminators_lg.jpg

I already covered Nobs before.

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 16:04
The biggest obstacle is actually all of the other projects; my Thriller Zombies, Stompa, lots of Marines looking like they need to be repainted as Red Scorpions, lots of other Marines in need of assembly and painting, Guard in need of painting, an Eldar army in need of painting, an Imperator Titan Cities of Death table, general terrain, and a few other odds and ends. The fact that the rules may be annoying is more the straw that broke the camel's back.

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 16:05
If you need more examples. Same process:

Terminators: 40mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_terminators_lg.jpg

I already covered Nobs before.

You did. My bad.

Terminator: 25mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060102015&orignav=301117

Terminator Captain: 25mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060101111&orignav=10

Steve

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 16:08
You did. My bad.

Terminator: 25mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060102015&orignav=301117

Terminator Captain: 25mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060101111&orignav=10

Steve

That's the online store, not their model guide. Try again :)

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 16:12
That's the online store, not their model guide. Try again :)

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/miniature-gallery/3/

What makes the model guide so much more definitive than the online store? I don't remember anyone saying the rule was "the model must be based on the same base as shown in GW's online model guide."

Steve

Ravenous
29-05-2008, 16:13
Bah, I say dont worry about it, the day someone gives you "serious" crap for base sizes is the day brass knuckles are a part of the hobby.

Royal Tiger
29-05-2008, 16:18
It's up to your opponent. Any opinions that shop staff have on the matter are totally irrelevant. :rolleyes:
the day something like that actually happens, I'll eat my hat

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 16:21
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/miniature-gallery/3/

What makes the model guide so much more definitive than the online store? I don't remember anyone saying the rule was "the model must be based on the same base as shown in GW's online model guide."

Steve

The guide is an up-to-date provision.

The store sells models older than me. The old metal Terminators aren't in the army roster there either. That'll be why they haven't updated every archived image ever...

Let me make it clear that I didn't state the guide was the rule. I'm pointing out that some of you are taking its far too literally and some even lack the initiative make a simple decision: look at GW's latest official guides and see what they portray.

Well they cocked up on that commander and you know it - but the likes of Abaddon has been updated. The marine chaplain in Terminator armour is on 40mm too. I have no doubt there are some other old models that haven't been updated on 40mm (if they even care!).

IJW
29-05-2008, 16:31
the day something like that actually happens, I'll eat my hat
From what I remember of my brief look at the rule, it specifies that it's only if your opponent objects - like I said, what the shop staff think is irrelevant as them enforcing the rules in the book is to make it your opponent's decision, not theirs. Assuming you're not playing against the staff... ;)

Whitehorn
29-05-2008, 16:52
Anyway, having said my piece.
This is why I think Terminators are justified on 40mm ;)

http://fulgrim.com/minis/dread_term_comparison.jpg

Faustburg
29-05-2008, 17:06
The thing one must understand is this:

It is an advantage to have a smaller base. You get more models into combat, Deep strike and disembark from your Land raider (especially if it is being swamped by enemy and destroyed in close combat...) better, etc.

You pay the points cost listed in the current army book, right? (I assume you are not using 1st and 2nd ed rules and costs, because that is what the terminators "came with")

So why should you get a free advantage over a model bought from the current range?

Of course it is a beach to rebase models, especially since the (just a few years) old bags of bases are no longer in the store, and even if you have them, you will have to cut slots for the tabs or remove them and pin the metal terminators to the bases, but these things happen, and anyone honestly arguing "It came with..." meaning what the original model was supplied with XX years ago and not what the out of the box contemporary models is based on is the jerk here.

spaint2k
29-05-2008, 17:16
The thing you must understand is this:

It is an advantage to have a smaller base. You get more models into combat, Deep strike better, etc.


Funny that. I can see two distinct advantages to larger bases.
1. I can be in base to base with MORE of your guys.
2. I can extend a deep strike in any given direction by 22.5mm by using larger bases, making it easier for me to charge you next turn.


anyone honestly arguing "It came with..." meaning what the original model was supplied with XX years ago and not what the out of the box contemporary models is based on is the jerk here.

So just to clarify what else might make people jerks:

If someone wanted to play you, and his army was mostly classic models, including terminators on 25mm bases, would you refuse?

Or let's say I wanted to play you, and my (pathetic and ineffectively small) Nob squad included a big mek, an old warboss, and an ork pilot simply because I love the models and also don't have enough models to make a legal squad any other way. All three are mounted on the 40mm bases they came with (as opposed to the 25mm bases the nobs they represent would come with). Would you refuse to play me?

Steve

VikingThor
29-05-2008, 17:30
Most people can tell the difference between someone who used bases that they had, vs. people who got bases specifically to bend the rules. I put my SM standard bearers on 40mm bases....they come with 25mm bases....but if you mount them, they will fall over if the air conditioner is blowing over head. F that. I want my model to stand up and he's on a 40mm base. To some people 40K is more of a hobby than a game, but still want to play from time to time. If someone spent months working on awesome bases to display their army, I would not refuse to play them because the base size was wrong. However, that same person, should expect to give some leway back to me when measuring, counting models in range, under templates, etc. I don't play serious games so I never have a problem, and always have a blast........and I lose about 50% of the time and don't cry.

Ravenous
29-05-2008, 17:36
Its like when I did this:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa298/Ravenouspainting/Tyranid_Winged_Hive_Tyrant_by_Raven.jpg

Everyone thought I did it just to get more models in combat, but in the truth is that more models in combat was a bad thing. I did it because I wanted to use the downed lightning to make it look cooler.

Copella
29-05-2008, 18:31
Maybe everyone is reading a little too far into this rule?
If its up to your oppenant, than it will depend on your gaming community's tastes. If it's printed in the book that x unit has to use y size bases, than it means either rework your models or buy/make new ones.
Personally i think this rule is more of a sledgehammer approach to fixing a problem that required a scapel. Like someone said earlier, its easy to tell if its an abuse of bases or not. 10 models with grossely oversized bases is easy to spot. 10 models with undersized bases is also easy to spot.

I hope its worded so your oppenant approves or not. Cause i'd hate to rip up my pretties and redo the non-standard basis for them.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z283/Osaliske/SuperSeraphim1.jpg

Satone
29-05-2008, 19:00
A lot of my characters are based using 40mm bases and thats for a reason there characters, who really wants there leader to be on a small base where you cant do anything cool with it?

Kettu
29-05-2008, 19:28
Alright, I must be living under a rock or something but what, pray tell, is this horrible rule that will lead to a base based apocalypse?

I have had a quick look around but I can't seem to see it anywhere.

Dosadi
29-05-2008, 19:38
In the current 4th edition rules you can place models on any sized base as long as it's not smaller than the base the model was supplied with.

In 5th edition the rule is that models should be based on the base they come packaged with. Anything different shuld be cleared with your opponent first. So, since some people are rules lawyers, they ruin it for the rest who believe they must now constrain their base size to the one the model came with.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to up size their bases. With the new rules for blasts in 5th I'll take every extra mm. I can't see any major advantage to putting models on larger bases. That being said if someone showed up with a bunch of marines on dread bases, I may ask him what he's up to.


Dosadi

FashaTheDog
29-05-2008, 19:38
Get with the present Kettu, we're talking about the future. This is all about a rumored base rule in 5th edition.

Lordmonkey
29-05-2008, 19:55
What makes the model guide so much more definitive than the online store?

The photos on these sort of things should be taken as guidance only. The new Daemons for WHFB have a spearhead box with a picture of models on round bases, which is by and large illegal.

Darnok
29-05-2008, 22:49
I have a unit of 16 mummies from 15 years ago. They are no longer a unit choice in any Undead army. Be as rude as I may, I can't use mummies.

That is so completely missing the point, it is not even funny.

Terminators on 25 mm bases are legal now. They won't however - even though only by your interpretation of the rule, not mine - as soon as 5th Ed. hits the ground. There is no Codex rewrite involved, nothing deleting Terminators from their army list, it is only this line concerning bases. And nobody can force you to not use those mummies as Grave Guard or Tomb Guard, but by your reading of "The RULES" you could keep me from playing Termis on 25 mm bases.


Extreme maybe, but it highlights the point. If you want to play by the rules (ie 5th) then you play the rules. No one is forcing you do do anything.

I still don't get your point. By my reading of this "rule" I can play Terminators with 25 mm bases. They are supplied with them - legal, check. No picture you can wield will dismiss this reading of the rules, as it is merely following RAW.

Playing by this "rule" is impossible, as there are so many inconsistencies and loopholes coming with it to make "Rollercoaster 40K" with them. Literally you're right, nobody can force me to play by this rule. But to bring this abonmination into the core book in the first place is a mistake GW just shouldn't have done to begin with.



In 5th edition the rule is that models should be based on the base they come packaged with. Anything different shuld be cleared with your opponent first. So, since some people are rules lawyers, they ruin it for the rest who believe they must now constrain their base size to the one the model came with.

Nice. Since GW does sell no scenic bases (for their normal miniatures) I would be prohibited to use those of any other manufacturer? Using RAW: quite so. Using common sense: of course not. But what does common sense matter to a rules lawyer?

My opinion still stands: if this rule is in the book as it is rumoured at the moment, I'll burn it out from my book. This hideous brainfart of "rule" shall not have one moment of peace...

Anton Gorodetsky
29-05-2008, 23:10
Hey folks, not to be snarky but who here actually has read the rulebook, the one GW is going to release officially.

If you have, please tell us the exact ruling on bases and continue discussing

If not, why cry about it? It isn't relevant until we actually read the book.

Also, if the rule is as draconian as rumours and hearsay show, you don't need to comply by them. You just won't be able to play in official tournaments, as in GW stores or at GT's. But in the scale of things, those tournaments are very rare compared to FLGS's and the big unofficial tournaments like Adepticon or GenCon.

Darnok
29-05-2008, 23:19
Hey folks, not to be snarky but who here actually has read the rulebook, the one GW is going to release officially.

If you have, please tell us the exact ruling on bases and continue discussing

If not, why cry about it? It isn't relevant until we actually read the book.

This is a section of the board to discuss rumours. Telling people to not do this (as you essentially are) is quite pointless, and adds nothing. Everybody here is well aware that he/she discusses rumours. ;)


Also, if the rule is as draconian as rumours and hearsay show, you don't need to comply by them. You just won't be able to play in official tournaments, as in GW stores or at GT's. But in the scale of things, those tournaments are very rare compared to FLGS's and the big unofficial tournaments like Adepticon or GenCon.

The problem is: even casual gamers want to play as "tournament approved" as possible. It might not be a thing concerning a majority of players, but setting it in stone in the core rules should never have happened in the first place.

Mitheral
30-05-2008, 00:08
If you need more examples. Same process:

Terminators: 40mm
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_terminators_lg.jpg

I already covered Nobs before.

That's nice, what size base is a tomb spider on? http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/miniature-gallery/9/

zeqe
30-05-2008, 00:36
That's nice, what size base is a tomb spider on? http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/miniature-gallery/9/

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060110021&orignav=10

Normal Flying Base----^

An interesting thought occurred to me in regards to flying bases: Are you forced to use the mounting peg that came supplied with the model, or just the flying base itself? I long ago went and bought small clear plastic dowels from a craft store that fit into the GW base so that I could vary the heights of my models more. I never liked all my jetbikes flying at exactly the same altitude partly due to the fact that it makes it much harder to stack them up in BTB (the front of the jetbike extends past the base by a few mm).

So can some one tell me I'm not using the correct base size in a GW sponsored event now? This rule seems ridiculous the more I think about it, especially considering scratch built models and really old citadel figs that came with square bases.

I agree with the previous poster that said it would serve as a fairly effective rules lawyer/jerk/immaturity filter though, since if someone tries to call me on all my jetbikes being "At the wrong altitude" I'll promptly pack up my army and move to a different table.

Mitheral
30-05-2008, 02:55
Ya, but:

That's the online store, not their model guide. Try again :)

Point being, the model guide isn't the end all, be all to what is the _Official_ base. They don't even show the classic Necron models which are of course still legal. What size base is the metal destroyer on?

This rule is so goofy anyways, the larger not smaller is plain common sense. I don't see any reason to question anything larger that's smaller than a CD.

zeqe
30-05-2008, 03:25
Ya, but:


Point being, the model guide isn't the end all, be all to what is the _Official_ base. They don't even show the classic Necron models which are of course still legal. What size base is the metal destroyer on?

This rule is so goofy anyways, the larger not smaller is plain common sense. I don't see any reason to question anything larger that's smaller than a CD.

That is until you see a Mega-armor Nob unit that's all mounted on CDs come charging at you engaging an entire flank of your army in close combat at the same time. There has to be some sort of guideline in the end I suppose but saying "The EXACT BASE WE GAVE YOU WITH THE MODEL AS OF 10:31pm April 23rd, 2008" or that sort of rubbish is really only going to disaffect modelers and converters. A happy middle ground could be made by putting an upper limit on how much larger or smaller than a GW base they could be mounted on: "Infantry models can be mounted on bases ranging from 20mm to 30mm" imo.

FashaTheDog
30-05-2008, 04:01
That is until you see a Mega-armor Nob unit that's all mounted on CDs come charging at you engaging an entire flank of your army in close combat at the same time.

I say bring it. Nothing like getting all of my Stealers and Fexes charged at once to get things off on a good start. "What you just charged 10 Nobs in mega-armor and got three Carnifexes, the Broodlord and retinue, both broods of Stealers and the Tyrant all at once? Thank you for making my job easier! :evilgrin:"

Mitheral
30-05-2008, 05:43
I'd say bring it too. Large bases are a pain to try to keep in cover and manuver on the table. Cripes I often wish Destroyer flying bases were smaller, they get in their own way and it's only a five man squad max. A ten model squad mounted on 25mm bases can already maintain a line 28" wide, 5" bases don't really get you much.

And after all they can only charge 6", it's going to be hard to engage more than a unit or two regardless of the base size.

I sure would like to give it a try just to find out though. Wouldn't be hard to blue tac some CD coasters to a few units and play a couple games.

setekhite
30-05-2008, 14:39
A happy middle ground could be made by putting an upper limit on how much larger or smaller than a GW base they could be mounted on: "Infantry models can be mounted on bases ranging from 20mm to 30mm" imo.

And ironically, that's exactly what Epic did to get around the profusion of infantry bases in use... :rolleyes:

And actually, in the era of 'true' LOS... how tall your flying stand is could also be an issue. After all, a model with a low stand could take cover behind infantry, while a high one could be exposed... this could obviously cut either way, but how stupidly gamey is it to be worrying about LOS considerations when basing your Destroyers / Jetbikes / Gargoyles?

Whitehorn
30-05-2008, 16:07
They are supplied with them

Are, not were.

Darnok
30-05-2008, 17:34
Are, not were.

Sorry, I don't get what you are trying to tell me. They are, as well as were supplied with them. :eyebrows:

zeqe
30-05-2008, 18:06
And ironically, that's exactly what Epic did to get around the profusion of infantry bases in use... :rolleyes:

And actually, in the era of 'true' LOS... how tall your flying stand is could also be an issue. After all, a model with a low stand could take cover behind infantry, while a high one could be exposed... this could obviously cut either way, but how stupidly gamey is it to be worrying about LOS considerations when basing your Destroyers / Jetbikes / Gargoyles?

Yeah, I really do it more for dramatic effect and ease of stuffing them closer together when it comes time to pile into the inevitable rugby scrum of close combat... the prospect of someone telling me that they all have to be exactly the same height isn't appealing.