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Akuma
29-05-2008, 09:04
Ok the purpose of this thread is to - think on how to change the tournament rules to see more tactical warhammer - to cut out all the crappy combinations that play almost by themselves ... To make Wfb a real chalanging experiance in pick up games - Impossible - maybe but its worth to try ...

Now - for VERY IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER

This is not a thread to argue about the SENS of doing such thing - there is another topic made by my - If you want to express irritation and dissagreement to such practice - GO THERE and dont litter in this thread ...

We have come up with this solution

XXX

The game is played in 2 formats -

1500 - for shorter tournaments

2250 - for longer ones and to allow Lord Choices
We deliberated for a long time about 2250 or 2500 but came up with a conclusion that 2500 is to much as the games are hardly ever ending in 2H format

Setting up terrain - before The battle there is X pices of terrain aveliable

1500 Game is played on 48" x 48" table with 6 pieces of terrain
2x Forest
2x Hills
1x Pond ( impossible terrain that doesnt obscure LOS )
1x High Building ( Terrain that units can enter and denying LOS to the LT )

Each player takes 3 pieces of terrain - 1 forest 1 hill and thay roll to see who gets the 3 piece - thay set it up like this -

No forest can be in deployment zone , No initial piece of terrain can be closer to the table edge then 8" and 2 same pieces of terrain cannot be closer then 12" of each other. Player take turns and set up one piece at a time - 1 one must be placed in thair dep zone.

Such solution gieves players control over the terrain placing making it another part of the game - this helps to cut "terrain was set in someones favour claims"

In 2250 Games that are played on 72" x 48" tables there are 2 more pieces

A LoS blocking impossible rock formation and a set of 3 walls and hadges You roll for them to

OK now onto the limitations

Magic Phase -

in 1500 pts you cannot USE more then 8 PD and 5 DD in one turn ( bound counting as one and DS counting as one of the respective group )

in 2250 pts you cannot USE more then 12 PD and 9 DD in one turn ( bound counting as one and DS counting as one of the respective group )

Mind that while we all think that magic is not to strong and it should be important factor of the game we simply want to cut lists like 17 - 20 PD that do nothing more then irritate opponents by simply not allowing them to react in any sensible manner. I think both new Deamons ( that I play ) and VC ( that one of my best friend play ) will easly mannage to squise in this bounds - the fact that you can have all PD that you want but you can only use limited number gives you staying magic power even if some of your casters die ...

This is coupled with small disspell cutting - this simply doesnt allow armys like 2x Caddie to use full 4 scrolls and 4 dd in one turn to shut it down - so while magic driven armys has a limit on thayr PD opponents also has limited resource to stop them.

On to the army composition

NO SPECIAL CHARACTERS - thay are fun - sure but some of them are better then others - thay just arent ballanced quite good as the army list themselves ( my own deamons of chaos beeing perfect example - but so are the HE ) - You can all do fun stuff without skulltaker or teclis - trust me on that one ;)

NO MORE THEN 2 SAME HERO , CORE , SPECIAL CHOICES - So no more then 2 vampires ( you can easly put one necro in there can you ? ) no more then 2 mages , no more then 2 herald of tzeensh in chariots and so on - same for core with cutting armys such as 50 crossbowman and stuff ... no more 2 steam tanks or 4 cannons either , or 4 units of pegasi knights for that matter ...

NO MORE THEN 1 SAME RARE CHOICE ( 2 IN THE SOLE CASE OF HE AS THAY USE DIFFRENT FOC ) - self explanatory

And to sum things up special start rule

The players after setting up terrain make a single dice roll - whoever wins decides

a) He will go first , He must start his deployment by deploying 2 units rather then one.

b) He will go second , He can choose the board side.

There is also pretty special deployment limitations ( to cut down dragon armys a bit as they will face less cannons then most times )

You must deploy your army in regards of base sizes of the units - As the Dragons have bieggest so all ridden monster will come first and so on - cavalry be put before infantry ( and that makes infantry even more playable and so on ) - This even has some augment in the fluff - as the bigger the unit is the earlier it will be spoted ...

XXX

Ok now feal free to post critiqe - corrections - idea - anything

ANYTHING OTHER THEN SAYING YOU ARE AGINST THE IDEA - AS I SAID THERE IS OTHER TOPIC ONLY FOR SUCH POST GO THERE DONT START A FLAME WAR HERE

If you want to say that I'm a "Warseer Bad Boy" ( lol ) as one of the posters caled me DO THIS VIA PM

THX Ahead for anwesrs !!!!

BloodiedSword
29-05-2008, 10:57
I can understand why you might want to limit offensive magic potential in each turn but why limit defensive potential as well?

I figure if someone has spent all those points on anti-magic stuff that is absolutely worthless against a non-magical army, they can use it whenever they like - not like offensive magic, which will always be of use.

Plus if someone uses up all their dispel scrolls early then they can't use them later. It just cuts out viable strategies like "use scrolls to stop magic in turn 1, then rely on actually killing wizards quickly in later turns".

In particular, how do you quantify things like the Lizardman Cube, or HE Vortex Shard? They completely stop your opponent from casting at all for a turn; are they allowed? Does whether they are allowed depend on how much magic your opponent has?

Finally, if you are allowed to use the Cube or Vortex Shard, then why aren't you allowed to emulate the effect using Dispel Scrolls for the other races (which is a much more expensive way of achieving the same thing)?

Also I don't see why you restrict people to only 2 of the same Core choice. What exactly is the justification for this? I'm assuming you're trying to stop gunlines, but I've never heard people complaining that their opponent took too many units of Skeletons before. Why not only apply this restriction to missile weapon armed core choices?

EDIT: Wow that sounds negative reading it. I should add that everything else sounds relatively sensible :)

Duke Raoul
29-05-2008, 12:30
NO SPECIAL CHARACTERS - thay are fun - sure but some of them are better then others - thay just arent ballanced quite good as the army list themselves ( my own deamons of chaos beeing perfect example - but so are the HE ) - You can all do fun stuff without skulltaker or teclis - trust me on that one ;)

NO MORE THEN 2 SAME HERO , CORE , SPECIAL CHOICES - So no more then 2 vampires ( you can easly put one necro in there can you ? ) no more then 2 mages , no more then 2 herald of tzeensh in chariots and so on - same for core with cutting armys such as 50 crossbowman and stuff ... no more 2 steam tanks or 4 cannons either , or 4 units of pegasi knights for that matter ...

NO MORE THEN 1 SAME RARE CHOICE ( 2 IN THE SOLE CASE OF HE AS THAY USE DIFFRENT FOC ) - self explanatory



I use these in my gaming group and I think it works well

Duke Raoul
29-05-2008, 12:34
Also I don't see why you restrict people to only 2 of the same Core choice. What exactly is the justification for this? I'm assuming you're trying to stop gunlines, but I've never heard people complaining that their opponent took too many units of Skeletons before. Why not only apply this restriction to missile weapon armed core choices?


Armies made up of mostly core skinks really are no fun to play against.

Crube
29-05-2008, 12:42
Hmmm, a lot of what you say has merit. The only things I would challenge or change would be

a) restricting magic - Magic heavy armies generally pay a lot for the privalledge and so will be quite short in other areas. The same for magic resitance heavy army. I played in a tourney, where my opponent went very magic defensive, and used up many points on it - against my WElf list with minimal magic. Sure I didnt get many spells off, but likewise i got to mash the rest of his army in the mean time.

To my mind, yes the magic heavy armies are extremes, but they are generally quite well balanced, (pointswise, not necessarily fluff wise) and will come undone

b) restricting Core choices. Why? why cant I take 4 units of skeletons in an Undead army, 3 units of Glade Riders in my Wood Elves... If the idea is to restrict gunline type armies etc, then... meh... I dunno. In an Empire army, I could still go with 2 x crossbows, 2 x handgunners, 2 x cannon, 2 x mortar, 2 x helblaster, 2 x Helstorm, 2 x archers... still plenty to choose form to a similar effect on the game.

I do like the deployment and terrain ideas though...


Just my 2p worth


[edit] core skinks - I like\playing against them. THey go squish very easily... when you hit them. and if you shoot htem enough times, they die too...

winkypinky
29-05-2008, 12:48
The only thing I can really agree on is no special characters. But that nerfs HE infantry lists to such a lame degree that AA-cavalry or dragon lists are the only options left to take. (No Korhil = spearelfs being one of the worst and most overcosted units in the game, right after HE archers.)

Also the Pd limit seems VERY low compared to DD limit. A dwarf player can more or less negate 1 of the main weaknesses of his army (No magic) to easy. Since no one will be doing anything in the magic phase with those comp rules. (You might as well just remove the magic phase instead, so dwarfs/brettonians will not dominate everything, other armies will then have to fight the game totally on the dwarf/brettonian players terms but that is better than playing with an army that is 500 points lower than them effectively.)

Ah damn there is just so much I think there is wrong with those comp rules I dont even know were to start.

Lizardmen: How are they EVER going to win with those rules in a tournament with just 1 other player? No skinks, no good monsters. Forced to field saurusses in blocks, which is horrible. And even more horrible without any magic to protect them.

HE: Already mentioned, I wouldnt bring a HE army under those rules at all. It would just be getting into the botton 10% automaticly.

WE: Could dominate beyound all belief. Since the standard "power" list just cuts 1 treeman and everything is the same. And none of the comp rules hits them at all. + they get to place 2 forests just were they want them. Instead of the normal of 1 forest. Not fun. At all.

DE: I would hate playing them under those rules. The only semi-good way to play DE's is with dark-riders. (And mark my words it will still be the only way to play DE's if they remain core in the new book.) You cant under these rules = DE's lose.

Empire: You have not done ONE! (1) thing to limit a gun-line. Sure you can not take 50 handgunners, but who did that? It was a 50/50 split of handgunnners/crosbowmen anyway. No more 4 cannons might but the list a little down. But honestly I dont htink so at all, since every good empire player I know dosnt play with more than 2 cannons anyway. (Pistoliers ARE that good.)

O&G: Good luck and have fun playing a horde army in a setting that makes sure you have to play the worst units in your book to fill out your points.

Chaos: You will be the WE/brett players bitch even more than you were before, since now you have no magic at all, which was the only way to combat those 2 armies as Chaos.

Vamps: You can do nothing now, nothing. Everyone can counter what you normally do (Cast magic) without even trying. You are left with way overpirced troops that gets out manouvered and crumbles in the first 2-3 turns of the game since you do not have the magic that is so vital to make the list work anymore.

Brettonians: Oh yeah, they just get bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus upon bonus under these rules. No one have magic? Nice the nr.1 enemy of brettonian knight formations are gone. The nr.2 enemy? There is no other thing in warhammer you can possibly fear when playing brettonians when magic have been removed from the game.
But only having 2 units of pegasus knights must kill the brettonian players and their power lists? No.

Dwarfs: We dont need magic, and now noone else has any. Seems a bit lame to give certain armies huge bonusses by enforcing comp rules.

Also the whole how much you can use per phase removes 75% of the skill required to play the game. The opponent can not suprise you anymore. If there is no suprises it just becomes even more important to make the perfect list and just go in auto play mode at the tournament. If no one can pull any tricks of you dont have think at all.

And the restriction to core units just seem lame. (Almost lamer than the restriction of magic.)

Also what will the guy with the mono-god deamon list do? Cry? He can not participate at all.


Ironic comp rules:

No more than 2 units can move per turn.
No more than 1 unit can shoot per turn.
You may only roll 8 offensive dices during a turn. (CC attacks, shooting, etc.)

It just seems like that is what you are going for.

Also the deplyment rules are horrible. The base is big so it goes down first?
Also that you try to justify it by saying it is a part of the fluff since you can see them from further away is just the most pathetic way to make sure gun-lines can dominate everything.

Also the game does not become more challanging because of comp rules. And for certain it dosnt make it more balanced. Then it just becomes a game to see who can power-play the most under your comp-rules instead of the normal rules. And that dosnt seem right at all. (Or it becomes a game of beating on the Lizardmen and Dark elf players by as much as possible so you can get a top seat, while you try to dodge WE and Brett players during the pairings since they will just demolish you more than ever.)

If you remove the comp rules, and learn some tactics yourself you will see that the game is infact not imbalanced at all. And there is no need to setup a different layer of rules that just invites to more powergaming since more rules = more things to "break". (Have you ever seen someone with a powerlist in chess?) Play the game, learn to beat hard opponents, and stop making lame comp rules that will just make sure that a few armies will stand undefeated on top of the skulls of the other armies, who the comp system left helpless behind.

- Since when have you not been able to react to magic? You SEE them roll the spells. Just pay a bit of attention during these 1-2 mins of the game and the effect of his magic is lessened by 50-80%. Since you KNOW what is coming. But I can understand that you are having trouble against magic heavy armies if you have your head hidden away in a dark place when you play. And just runs around like a headless chicken and getting suprised by everything they do.
EX:
You: OMG! You killed my light cavalry!!!! HAXXXXX!!! You just did it with magic that is so skill-less l2p noob. Your army requires no skill!!!!
Me: Ehmmm YOU moved your light cavalry within 24" of my Sorceror on steed, so I could move her next turn and unleash magic range 18" death upon your expensive unit with no save the YOU moved into the reach of my magic. How did you not see that coming?.......

Aparantly you made a play mistake. And you still havnt noticed your play mistake. Instead you blame "magic".

The conclusion. You KNOW what spells an opponent have, you can GUESS when he is gonna use what about 75% of the time. You even know how many spells he can cast per turn. (roughly) Magic is no more suprising or powerfull than shooting. If you had moved your light cavalry within range of a hellblaster wouldnt you expect the unit to die? But if you move it into range of a more than 50% more expensive sorceror/mage you expect the unit to joyfully live through your opponents turn so it can make the game winning flank charge?

Maybe I just think in a different way when I play.

(1 full post of almost all disagreements from me to you, the presents you end up liking the most is normally the ones you didnt ask for.)

winkypinky
29-05-2008, 12:50
Armies made up of mostly core skinks really are no fun to play against.

But on the other hand armies made up of saurusses are fun to play against since you win every game against them?

xragg
29-05-2008, 12:58
Why restrict forests in a deployment zone, but allow hills and other pieces in deployment? That really only targets out one army. I personally miss the old random terrain chart. I no longer pick terrain anymore so my opponents cant accuse losing on "terrain that favors your army" BS. I let them select around 6 pieces of terrain they feel are balanced. Then we take turns placing them on the table and roll for sides when complete. It gets old when players try to fault you for using your armies strengths to beat them. Sorry for the little rant, I guess you found a tender wound.

ZeroTwentythree
29-05-2008, 13:00
One of my issues with limiting the number of duplicate units is that it penalizes "themed" armies based on fluff -- regardless of strength.

For example, if I were making a Clan Moulder themed army of skaven, I'd probably have to include alot of giant rat packs and rat ogres. They're arguably two of the weakest (for the points) units in the army list, but I'd get penalized along with the "power gamers" for making a weaker than average themed list.

Similarly, no more than 2 core can hurt horde armies (anything with cheap core). In 2250 point games, I'm likely to take 3 units of clanrats if playing skaven or 3 units of swordsmen if playing empire. They're supposed to be the bulk of the army.

Related to the above, different army books are arranged differently. So empire spearmen, halbardiers and swordsmen are all different entries, thus different "core choices." So I could get around the "no more than 2" rule by playing 1 unit of spearmen and 2 units of swordsmen. But skaven could not do the same by taking 1 unit of spear armed clanrats and 2 units of sword armed clanrats.

BloodiedSword
29-05-2008, 14:20
Armies made up of mostly core skinks really are no fun to play against.

As I said in my original post - if the aim is to stop gunlines, why not only restrict Core troops that are armed with missile weapons, not all Core?

N810
29-05-2008, 14:25
Mmm under these rules the Lizardmen have basicly only one list to play in the 1500 point game. :(
and its not that good.

and the slan becomes completely unplayable in the 2250 because of magic restrictions.

SPYDER68
29-05-2008, 15:36
Its better to have a 3rd person set up the terrain instead of the ones playing that way no one can try to place it to their advantage if your trying to limit everything.

That and random terrain makes the game better to me.

squalie
29-05-2008, 15:41
What if you just couldn't double up on rares? Gets rid of a few common builds right there.

kdh88
30-05-2008, 04:06
Armies made up of mostly core skinks really are no fun to play against.

It's not like LM players have a whole lot of choice in the matter, since they only have 2 actual core choices (no, jungle swarms and temple guard don't count, espescially when you effectively can't take slann under these rules). Seriously, they can barely even fill their compulsory core choices with these rules. In fact, I'm not even sure you could actually hit 2250 points with those restrictions. Lets see:


25 Saurus w/ full command: 330
10 skinks: 60
10 skinks: 60
4 Kroxigor: 232
4 Kroxigor: 232
5x Sarus Cav w/ full command, Huanichi banner: 265
5x Chameleon Skinks: 75
3 Salamanders 165
Stegadon: 235


That's 1654 points, and cannot actually field any more units. That leaves you with 596 points that must be filled with characters, which can only occur by using a slann (which is dumb because of the magic restrictions) or an old blood on a carnosaur (which is also dumb because your deployment rules make it easier to avoid than it already is).

I can understand the no special characters (I don't care for them myself), and maybe even the no doubling up on rares, although that hoses TK and DE since they can't get their obligatory warmachines, and it isn't possible for HE to fill their rare slots (they have four slots and only two kinds of units). I seriously doubt you've thought through the "no more than 2 of any single choice" rule though.

Zethal
30-05-2008, 04:24
The problem with most comp rules is that they do not effect all armies equally, in addition to the grips about lizardmen core. Certain rules just destroy lots of options.

A player can not even field a mono-daemon army under those restrictions.

I suppose my question is what is the purpose of your restrictions, what are you trying to restrict, and then why are you restricting them?

Rubicon
30-05-2008, 09:17
NO MORE THEN 2 SAME HERO , CORE , SPECIAL CHOICES - So no more then 2 vampires ( you can easly put one necro in there can you ? ) no more then 2 mages , no more then 2 herald of tzeensh in chariots and so on - same for core with cutting armys such as 50 crossbowman and stuff ... no more 2 steam tanks or 4 cannons either , or 4 units of pegasi knights for that matter ...

NO MORE THEN 1 SAME RARE CHOICE ( 2 IN THE SOLE CASE OF HE AS THAY USE DIFFRENT FOC ) - self explanatory


I like this, but then it's not much of a change from what I usually do. I dunno about this whole comp score thing, it isn't really a feature for the casual gamer and IIRC not really a thing that happens a great deal in the UK Tournament scene.

Good on you for posting your ideas tho...

vesp
30-05-2008, 09:23
These comp rules seem restricting to the point of choking any kind of creative army lists (and I mean creative in an interesting way, not a powered up way).

I'm playing O&G these days, and to be quite honest there's just no way I'd bother wasting my time participating in a campaign or tourney with the restrictions set out above. Sorry.

W0lf
30-05-2008, 10:11
Agree with most of what winky pinky said.

Oh and are you sure you want 6 pieces of terrain on 4x4?

With the 'no terrain' around board edges the terrains ganna be realy tight. So much so that a gunline wouldnt actually function anyway.

papariera
30-05-2008, 11:03
I would normally agree with some of the points winkypinky raises but he is so furious in going about it that I find it hard to not disagree with him. I see what akuma is going for and it is commendable but we must understand that these rules can't apply to all armies equally. Most of them make sense but in some extreme cases the contradict both background and game mechanics. The limitation on power dice is OKish but some armies have every reason to have tons of them. Think of Tzeentch horrors. They are effectively a missile unit, only they shoot by casting magic. How can you limit them? What about beastmen? They are left with three core choices one of which doesn't even count towards your compulsory ones. This effectively forces you to take bestigors, who whilst not being as rubbish as most people make them to be, aren't exactly brilliant either. The terrain rules are good, and so are some of the comp rules, but they all rely on the understanding of someones opponent in case you are forced to break them for very legitimate reasons. I don't think there is a panacea that will solve all these problems. I for one will try to use akumas rules with my group of friends but using them in a tournament setting will be unfair.

Akuma
30-05-2008, 11:19
Restrictions on the composition of the army;

Army restriction
No army can be doubled, SoC counts as the same army.
SoC lists count as the same armybook they are taken from originally.
SoC allowed if source army book not revised, which means that Slayers, ArdBoyz and Middenheim are banned.


General
- Armies are 2250 points.
- No characters that are: special or Albion
- No DoW war machines, in none DoW
(Malakhai allowed, Assarnil banned? - up to you really)


- Rare choices may not be repeated
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice.
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons.
- Max. 9 PD/10DD usable *

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells from magic items, and only magic items, in the same turn counts as 2 power dice. For example a Treemans treesinging or Grave markers, only count as 1 power dice each time they are used, even if more than 1 is used in a turn.

All dice you would not normally regenerate, such as 2 gen Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does NOT count in this maximum.



Race specific
- Max 3 ratlings
- Max 3 chariots (units of chariots)
- Max 6 goblin fanatics.
- Treeman ancient counts as Treeman



*Same as last year, copy and paste.

Soft scores.
While giving the results of the last battle, Captains fill the name of the Team that gave them the most enjoyable game.
If one team gets the most votes, such a team will receive half a Team Battle Point, putting it above all the other teams with same amount of VP.
All other soft scores will have no bearing on the overall standings.

Akuma
30-05-2008, 11:19
This are the ETC comp scores now for a my anwsers ...


Ok I'll start from the end.


These comp rules seem restricting to the point of choking any kind of creative army lists (and I mean creative in an interesting way, not a powered up way).

MAN I ASKED IN RED BIG FONT DONT LITTER WITH SUCH REMARKS - THERE IS ANOTHER THREAD FOR THAT ONLY.



I suppose my question is what is the purpose of your restrictions, what are you trying to restrict, and then why are you restricting them?

The sole purpose is to create such enviroment that wont allow for player to bring rock paper and scisors army - so an list that will from definition win aginst one army and do very poorly aginst other - Its not fun to be the scisors when you have to play a rock ...


Oh and are you sure you want 6 pieces of terrain on 4x4?

We could easly go with 4 but it looks quite effevtive to have 6 - only the hills can be glued to board edges - guess i didnt containt it in my first post.


That's 1654 points, and cannot actually field any more units. That leaves you with 596 points that must be filled with characters, which can only occur by using a slann (which is dumb because of the magic restrictions)

Or you could take slann - 2 skink mages and for a moment think about the limited ability for a disspel of your opponent think of it for a while ... And then think that on the most prestige of tournaments that arent chees fast dice are caped 9 PD and 10 DD ( euro ETC ).


What if you just couldn't double up on rares? Gets rid of a few common builds right there.

Because it laves RAF undamaged ?


Its better to have a 3rd person set up the terrain instead of the ones playing that way no one can try to place it to their advantage if your trying to limit everything.

That and random terrain makes the game better to me.

You would acctualy have to get a guy from the street for that because if someone does it he is always someones friend more then somebody else ... Why the ressitance to have more control over tehe game effectivly opening new tactic possibilitys ?


As I said in my original post - if the aim is to stop gunlines, why not only restrict Core troops that are armed with missile weapons, not all Core?

Dryad spam lists


Mmm under these rules the Lizardmen have basicly only one list to play in the 1500 point game.
and its not that good.

and the slan becomes completely unplayable in the 2250 because of magic restrictions.

No - thay are far from unplayable - the fact that you can only think of a LZ army as Slaan 60 skinks and so on is the one of the reasons to make a comp score ...


Related to the above, different army books are arranged differently. So empire spearmen, halbardiers and swordsmen are all different entries, thus different "core choices." So I could get around the "no more than 2" rule by playing 1 unit of spearmen and 2 units of swordsmen. But skaven could not do the same by taking 1 unit of spear armed clanrats and 2 units of sword armed clanrats.

Well in the regard of fluffy thamed armys - on tournaments there are non - if someone goes on one he wants to win - if not he goes to shop - plays his buddy have few loughts drink beer afterwards and enjoys the game - we are trying to regulate tournament enviroment not whole WFB ... As for skaven - how exactly taking x units of empire would be great - can thay have ratling guns or warpfire throwers ?


I'm likely to take 3 units of clanrats if playing skaven or 3 units of swordsmen if playing empire. They're supposed to be the bulk of the army.

Would it be wrong on any level to get one unit of hmm like stormvermin in 2250 army - usualy with a bell or something to reprezent the grea seer or warlord rutinue ?


Why restrict forests in a deployment zone, but allow hills and other pieces in deployment? That really only targets out one army.

Not exactly - it hurts dwarfs with anvil in the fores and the old - hide all mages in the forest trick - this is both unfluffy and very wrong in tournaments as can tump armys


But on the other hand armies made up of saurusses are fun to play against since you win every game against them?

My friend regulary fields one unit of saurus in 1500 and 2 in 2250 he was my country champion for 2 yers straight ...

OK NOW FOR WINKYPINKY as his post is very very productive - I realy look foward to more input from you man !


spearelfs being one of the worst and most overcosted units in the game, right after HE archers.)

21 attacks with ASF is wors in the game ?


Also the Pd limit seems VERY low compared to DD limit. A dwarf player can more or less negate 1 of the main weaknesses of his army (No magic) to easy. Since no one will be doing anything in the magic phase with those comp rules.

What are you exaclyt talking about ? ETC limit is 9 PD and 10 DD ... even less - you care to chack how exactly opponent that has 9 dice can stop 12 ? Or in your book for magic to be effective the list need to throw 26 of them ? I play Tzeensh Deamon army - based around VP denial - and have great succes under this rules - magic is even more powerfull becasue players shy away from taking 2 scroll caddies in 2250 format as thay can be sure thay wont bump into 25 PD army that will anihilate them in one turn ...


Lizardmen: How are they EVER going to win with those rules in a tournament with just 1 other player? No skinks, no good monsters. Forced to field saurusses in blocks, which is horrible. And even more horrible without any magic to protect them.

Where in the rules it is written that you cannot have skinks , or sallies or good monsters ? - What about magic ?



HE: Already mentioned, I wouldnt bring a HE army under those rules at all. It would just be getting into the botton 10% automaticly.

Yeah beacause thay can easly do 20 lsg - 2 bolth thrower 2 eagles list with Prince on dragon that won the last uk GT ? Did you even see the list ? - no ? I guess so because you would have known that it fits in this comp score PERFECTLY ( one rbt beeing an eagle )


WE: Could dominate beyound all belief. Since the standard "power" list just cuts 1 treeman and everything is the same. And none of the comp rules hits them at all. + they get to place 2 forests just were they want them. Instead of the normal of 1 forest. Not fun. At all.

Another place where you fail on you knees - WE list on UK GT had 2x treeman Dragon 1x bsb 2x caddies wild riders some wardancers and a lot of dryads ... no 2x treeman - no dryad spam means WE are not so good anymore ... + its even worse when you go to GT draw a WE and see thet the table has NO woods whatsoever ...


DE: I would hate playing them under those rules. The only semi-good way to play DE's is with dark-riders. (And mark my words it will still be the only way to play DE's if they remain core in the new book.) You cant under these rules = DE's lose.

LoL there is new Book coming out ... now - brought you up to date ...


Empire: You have not done ONE! (1) thing to limit a gun-line. Sure you can not take 50 handgunners, but who did that? It was a 50/50 split of handgunnners/crosbowmen anyway. No more 4 cannons might but the list a little down. But honestly I dont htink so at all, since every good empire player I know dosnt play with more than 2 cannons anyway. (Pistoliers ARE that good.)

Any decent empire player takes Karl Franz on dragon 2x stanks 4xcannons -this is the core of the army not the handgunners or crossbowman and this is called a gun line - also mind that Handgunners have 24" range so wont shoot if the empire player will get the 1 turn ... Agin no experience in GT comes out empire 4 + 2 was the close to most popular army your remark about pistoliers is just silly - acctualy there was a guy who used 9 hochlands but on outriders - play more larn more ...



O&G: Good luck and have fun playing a horde army in a setting that makes sure you have to play the worst units in your book to fill out your points.

2x Unit of Goblins with fanatics and you have the most variaty from all books - if you are so close minded that you cannot how to win with orks in this format -well you are just another WRDP

There is also not a way not to force certain armys not to change thair standard but is this realy wrong - OK now for a chalange post THE MOST BROKEN LIST THAT CAN BE MADE VIA THIS COMP SCORE IN 1500 FORMAT


Chaos: You will be the WE/brett players bitch even more than you were before, since now you have no magic at all, which was the only way to combat those 2 armies as Chaos.

Chaos doesnt need magic to deal with WE brett - it uses speed I play deamons , and mortals - that are getting new book ...



Vamps: You can do nothing now, nothing. Everyone can counter what you normally do (Cast magic) without even trying. You are left with way overpirced troops that gets out manouvered and crumbles in the first 2-3 turns of the game since you do not have the magic that is so vital to make the list work anymore.

Yeah so you are another one of the pack who thinks the magic is the only way to go with VC - skip to the least paragraph now.

As for brets - if someone cannot deal with lances with biting overuning and such he does not comprehand the game at the good level.

Dwarfs are acctualy boned - thay cannot make full use of the diss potetnial as the anvil that cannot hide in the forest is much worse option now thats one and the lack of gunline potential in there points out to more direct aproach ...


Aparantly you made a play mistake. And you still havnt noticed your play mistake. Instead you blame "magic".


if instaed of posting crap you would chack the tactics forum you would see that I play with magic myself - hows that fit in you theory ?



Maybe I just think in a different way when I play.


No I tell you what you think - or by that what you are - People with the reasonating like yours are the sole reason that the game need comp score - you are so blind that you cannot comprehand that the game can be won with the help of a magic and not by it in the first turn.

The problem that you have with yourself is that you dont use tactics - you just roll the dice - you want magic to be 17 - 18 PD a turn so you can destroy opponent with something that he cannot react for - same with gunline - you dont care about positioning , placing - nothing like that you just want to roll the dice and rise your very low self esteem by seaying I pwnd thet kid with my uber magic - all thing - even your writing style sugest it -

Plase dont post agin - AS I said it before - this is a thread for people who want to contribute to somethin - there is other one called why do comp score suks for likes of you to cry their tiers -

You also show no sign of familarity of standards of touranment play both GT and ETC - If you cannot grasp tactics play your WRDB and lave the pros alone.

Ward.
30-05-2008, 11:39
I actually really like these comp rules, apart from the limit on core choices for skaven.

So if think up some army specific exclusions to balance it out your system should work well.

winkypinky
30-05-2008, 11:40
This are the ETC comp scores now for a my anwsers ...

I really only have one thing left to say.


- You are wrong, I am right.

Since I just read what you replied. Ad it didnt really make any sence to me at all. And the comments to each list I had already commented made even less sence in my eyes.

(And you didnt really defend your points at all)

vesp
30-05-2008, 11:49
Wow, I can't believe I wasted time reading those 'replies' to the questions and comments posted here. I feel sorry for any normal person that has to play with this illiterate fool.

I won't bother opening this thread again.

Akuma
30-05-2008, 11:56
I really only have one thing left to say.


- You are wrong, I am right.

No your right and the best wfb players in europe are wrong - this is what you said in your sentence ... have a nice day

winkypinky
30-05-2008, 11:59
Well the fact that you say that 21 spearelfs (without Korhil) is a good tournament unit have just made me more sure than I can ever be that I am at least a better player than you.

Brimstone
30-05-2008, 12:43
Yeah beacause thay can easly do 20 lsg - 2 bolth thrower 2 eagles list with Prince on dragon that won the last uk GT ? Did you even see the list ? - no ? I guess so because you would have known that it fits in this comp score PERFECTLY ( one rbt beeing an eagle )

Another place where you fail on you knees - WE list on UK GT had 2x treeman Dragon 1x bsb 2x caddies wild riders some wardancers and a lot of dryads ... no 2x treeman - no dryad spam means WE are not so good anymore ... + its even worse when you go to GT draw a WE and see thet the table has NO woods whatsoever ...

LoL there is new Book coming out ... now - brought you up to date ...

play more larn more ...

2x Unit of Goblins with fanatics and you have the most variaty from all books - if you are so close minded that you cannot how to win with orks in this format -well you are just another WRDP

Yeah so you are another one of the pack who thinks the magic is the only way to go with VC - skip to the least paragraph now.

As for brets - if someone cannot deal with lances with biting overuning and such he does not comprehand the game at the good level.


if instaed of posting crap you would chack the tactics forum you would see that I play with magic myself - hows that fit in you theory ?

No I tell you what you think - or by that what you are - People with the reasonating like yours are the sole reason that the game need comp score - you are so blind that you cannot comprehand that the game can be won with the help of a magic and not by it in the first turn.

The problem that you have with yourself is that you dont use tactics - you just roll the dice - you want magic to be 17 - 18 PD a turn so you can destroy opponent with something that he cannot react for - same with gunline - you dont care about positioning , placing - nothing like that you just want to roll the dice and rise your very low self esteem by seaying I pwnd thet kid with my uber magic - all thing - even your writing style sugest it -

Plase dont post agin - AS I said it before - this is a thread for people who want to contribute to somethin - there is other one called why do comp score suks for likes of you to cry their tiers -

You also show no sign of familarity of standards of touranment play both GT and ETC - If you cannot grasp tactics play your WRDB and lave the pros alone.



Well if you are asking for opinions that's not the way to encourage people to reply, expect to here from me very soon.

Thread Closed

The Warseer Inquisition