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Ravenheart
29-05-2008, 20:00
So let's see what the 5th ed gives and takes of our extragalactical killer bugs, based on the newest information on the rules.

Blasts: The new rules work for as well as against the Nids.
A blast hitting into a swarm of gaunts, is likely to kill much more due the abolsihment of partial hits.

On the pro side, many units have acces to blast weapons.
Raveners for example can get Deathspitters for cheap, which results in one S5 / AP5 blast per Ravener. Their meager BS isn't a big factor anymore.
Simmilar goes for Spore Mines, Warriors with Deathspitters / Stranglers and the Warp Blast.

Scout: Genestealers and Gaunts have acces to it, and now can alternativly come into game from a board edge. This can be very helpfull as a scoring unit might manage to get into the right position unharmed.

This might also increase the usefullnes of the Liktor.

Rending: Certainly one of the worst changes for the Nids. Tanks will be thoughter to kill and less infantry dies in CC. Feeder Tendrils will be more important for Genestealers now.

Screening: Cheap gaunts can now give cover to more the cruical synapse creatures or expensive genestealers. Definilty a plus.
Most Nid weapons have high AP, so in return it won't matter for shooting at MEQs.

Run: Hopefully this will make the assult fex a more valiable choice.

New CC Rules: Casualities can be taken from the back of the unit and not only the killzone, resulting in big broods generating more kills as they can all still attack despite being of lower I.

As far as I understand, outnumbering is now used to generate extra wounds in "no retreat" conditions. That will make a thornback fex (US 20!) a killer against fearless units.

Vehicles without a WS can always be hit on the rear. Great for the genestealers despite the rending downgrade.

Scoring and KP: Bigger broods are a must to deny KP and being able to hold an objective. KP will decrease the usefullness of loners like Zoanthropes, as they are easy to kill and deliver a KP each.


I'm sure you people will think of some more stuff.

The Laughing God
29-05-2008, 20:03
I really can't wait to see close combat fex's become useful. So you don't take a ld check to shoot behind a unit?

Mad Larkin UK
29-05-2008, 20:09
Outnumbering is gone in CC, you take LD tests by the amount of wounds caused on you - the amount you caused. IE your fex killed 3 marines, they put a wound on you, their LD test is at -2. Thornback does nothing at the moment. Wait till the Nid FAQ comes out to see what it does.

I think nids will still be powerful. Stealers with Fleet coming on from your side is Scary!

Ravenheart
29-05-2008, 20:09
So you don't take a ld check to shoot behind a unit?

Target priority? I don't know it that is still in.

But a brood of gaunts can give a 4+ cover save, to a units that is getting shoot "through" them. It's a nice screen given that spinegaunts are damn cheap. You only have to make sure that there are enough of them left to grab objectives.


Outnumbering is gone in CC, you take Ld tests by the amount of wounds caused on you - the amount you caused. IE your fex killed 3 marines, they put a wound on you, their Ld test is at -2. Thornback does nothing at the moment. Wait till the Nid FAQ comes out to see what it does.

Seems I missunderstood this. My bad; hopefully the FAQ sheds some light on that issue.

Meriwether
29-05-2008, 20:15
I think the biggest harm done to tyranids is the no-consolidate-into-CC rule. Close-range weapons-fire is going to do a *lot* to mitigate the nastiness of creepy-weedy genestealers coming in on the flanks.

Meri

decker_cky
29-05-2008, 20:19
I think you'll find feeder tendril genestealers are actually better point for point against most opponents, since the downgrade to rending is minor against non-vehicles (it's 8/9 as good as it was), but you have many more non-rending hits.

Vepr
29-05-2008, 20:23
I already ran warriors now I am thinking of running two groups of 4 or 5 with death spitters and a barbed strangler. :)

I wonder what they will do with thornback? It would be nice if it did something like hits that failed to wound had a chance of wounding the attacker. :D Ok, I know it is way to good to be true but I can dream.

mchmr6677
29-05-2008, 20:32
I already ran warriors now I am thinking of running two groups of 4 or 5 with death spitters and a barbed strangler. :)

I wonder what they will do with thornback? It would be nice if it did something like hits that failed to wound had a chance of wounding the attacker. :D Ok, I know it is way to good to be true but I can dream.

This is already done by acid maw.

I hadn't heard anything concerning the effects of outnumbering a fearless opponent being taken out. They autopass the leadership test and then have the chance of being drug under. When did that change?

bjweikel
29-05-2008, 21:05
What does everyone think of taking Hormies with Toxin Sacs and assaulting vehicles? Hitting the rear armor of tanks with strength 4, especially a vehicle which hasn't moved, might amount to enough glancing hits to do some real damage.

The downsides I see would be the return fire by surrounding enemy units and using up a scoring troop slot. If you cover fire with barbed stranglers, you may be able to pin some surrounding enemy units to keep them from shooting down the gaunts right away.

Ravenheart
29-05-2008, 21:17
What does everyone think of taking Hormies with Toxin Sacs and assaulting vehicles? Hitting the rear armor of tanks with strength 4, especially a vehicle which hasn't moved, might amount to enough glancing hits to do some real damage.

The downsides I see would be the return fire by surrounding enemy units and using up a scoring troop slot. If you cover fire with barbed stranglers, you may be able to pin some surrounding enemy units to keep them from shooting down the gaunts right away.

Chances are that most vehicles bar transports will sit far behind. Hormies are fast, but they wills still struggle to reach them.
I'd rather go for small-ish squads of 'scouting' genestealers or the odd lictor.

Vepr
29-05-2008, 21:18
What does everyone think of taking Hormies with Toxin Sacs and assaulting vehicles? Hitting the rear armor of tanks with strength 4, especially a vehicle which hasn't moved, might amount to enough glancing hits to do some real damage.

The downsides I see would be the return fire by surrounding enemy units and using up a scoring troop slot. If you cover fire with barbed stranglers, you may be able to pin some surrounding enemy units to keep them from shooting down the gaunts right away.

That is a lot of points tied up in a pretty fragile unit. You might be able to get them there with a gaunt shield but really you would probably be better off with vanilla stealers.

gorgon
29-05-2008, 21:24
CC Warriors will benefit even with the revised rending because of the run rule. That'll let them better keep up with Gaunts, which will make hordey Tyranids better overall. Warriors will most likely surprise some people in 5th. Screening cover saves will help protect units like Genestealers. 2001 was the last time we were able to screen Genestealers in any meaningful way, so I'm looking forward to that. Of course, Genestealers were a lot nastier pre-2001 also. ;)

The "Troops as scoring" thing really doesn't work well for Tyranids. Tyranid Troops are killers or tarpitters, not objective holders. Tyranid players will likely have to counter this by more or less forgetting about trying to hold objectives and concentrating on killing their opponent's Troops. No consolidating into combat will hurt, but that'll require players to carefully plan their advances and assaults...which they should be doing anyway.

Overall, I think we'll see a trend toward more balanced Tyranid armies. We'll still see a lot of MCs, mind you. MCs just have too many advantages.

Ravenheart
29-05-2008, 21:35
The "Troops as scoring" thing really doesn't work well for Tyranids. Tyranid Troops are killers or tarpitters, not objective holders. Tyranid players will likely have to counter this by more or less forgetting about trying to hold objectives and concentrating on killing their opponent's Troops. No consolidating into combat will hurt, but that'll require players to carefully plan their advances and assaults...which they should be doing anyway.

That is probably true. On the other hand it goes well with the Nid background, as they mostly had only one purpose in every battle: Crush all resistance and then absorb.
MCs will at least be still able to contest objectives luckily, which they tend to do quite well.

Vepr
29-05-2008, 21:37
Hopefully the next codex will help out Zoanthropes, Biovores, and Lictors. I still take them just for the hell of it sometimes but really there does not seem to be any of them now especially with the new VP's.

Vepr
29-05-2008, 21:47
If I am thinking about it right leaping is not quite as good due to being able to remove CC casualties from any part of the squad.

Ravenheart
29-05-2008, 21:56
If I am thinking about it right leaping is not quite as good due to being able to remove CC casualties from any part of the squad.

You still get benefits of having a 3" support range afaik, which might find more use in the new edition, as it is more benefitial to have really large squads for KP denial and scoring.

cochise
29-05-2008, 22:02
I really would like to clarify if Zoans give a kill point each, that would make them almost implayable in that mission.
I really havenīt seen anything implying that. Zooanthropes are a unit despite operating independently. If kill points are given by a unit basis, then they should only give the kill point away when the last of them dies.

decker_cky
29-05-2008, 22:20
I think cheap warriors will be the unit that really benefits. Don't give them EC and kit them out with a gun setup and a set of talons. They fight decently, but they depend on 4+ cover rather than 4+ armour, and only fight if they have to. Add in those supporting shots and they provide a nice spread of synapse for not too much cost.

Am I wrong in thinking that catalyst lost most of it's utility?

Egge
29-05-2008, 22:59
Am I wrong in thinking that catalyst lost most of it's utility?Think you are :) Imagine you charging something in a wood...say 10 chaos marines. You charge in with 20 Hormagaunts (WS 5 and S4). The Marines strikes first and with the "everybody countercharge"-rule they'll get 10 models in combat. Thats 20 Attacks S 4 before you strike! Thats about 6 hormagaunts dead. 18 Attacks lost! With only 14 models you get about 5 Marines dead and thus losing with one (if you're fearless you will probably loose one more then) But with catalyst you'll win with one.

Overall. The one most negative for nids are the consolidate rule. To make people wishing they won't kill so many CC-turn 1 is, in my opinion, flawed and boring. Fast kills should be encouraged. In the example above you should actually start to think it's better to loose the combat just to make sure the unit won't get shot up next turn.

But Warriors will rock...:skull:

Stingray_tm
29-05-2008, 23:09
I will just say this: I will not play KP missions. Period.

Necros
29-05-2008, 23:19
I haven't played my nids in a really long time. Just starting to dust them off again. But, don't we still have that shoot the big ones rule? I'm guessing that would negate the 4+ cover save from our own stuff. or they can shoot over the guants but 1 big model can block another big model or something like that...?

Vepr
29-05-2008, 23:25
I haven't played my nids in a really long time. Just starting to dust them off again. But, don't we still have that shoot the big ones rule? I'm guessing that would negate the 4+ cover save from our own stuff. or they can shoot over the guants but 1 big model can block another big model or something like that...?

I think that shoot the big one will still apply when it comes to targeting tests for LD but they will still get the +4 cover save. Hopefully.... :p

Varath- Lord Impaler
30-05-2008, 06:14
I will just say this: I will not play KP missions. Period.

And i will...

And i have 11 Units in 1000 points.

Dont be a baby and play with your toy soldiers!

cochise
30-05-2008, 10:49
Varath, it seems to me that you are pursuing Stingray to every thread he enters just to annoy him. I donīt care too much, itīs even funny, but maybe he doesnīt like having you comment every single post he makes.

DoomedDiceThrower
30-05-2008, 11:17
What was that at the beginning of this thread about Feeder Tendrils are more important for Stealers now?

Tendrils are those things that give you the hit-most-things-at-3+ rule, right? But they hit most stuff on 3+ anyway, and many things they don't hit on 3+ are probably characters anyway, on which tendrils don't work. Plus, they're expensive.

Didn't you all mean acid maws? As they're letting you re-roll the wounds, and thus increasing the chance for rending?
Or am I missing somethin here?

Ravenheart
30-05-2008, 11:29
Now now, let's keep it friendly gentelmen.

Given the new 'screening' rules, another unit has caught my attention: the quite unpopular ripper swarms.

So either the enemy shoots at the rippers or the directs fire at the broods behind, who will profit of cover.


What was that at the beginning of this thread about Feeder Tendrils are more important for Stealers now?

Tendrils are those things that give you the hit-most-things-at-3+ rule, right? But they hit most stuff on 3+ anyway, and many things they don't hit on 3+ are probably characters anyway, on which tendrils don't work. Plus, they're expensive.

Didn't you all mean acid maws? As they're letting you re-roll the wounds, and thus increasing the chance for rending?
Or am I missing somethin here?

Feeder tendrils gives you the prefered enemy USR, if I'm not mistaken.

This USR changes in the new edition, allowing you to re-roll misses. So stealers hit on 3+ and re-roll misses, resulting in a higher amount of hits (and more chance of rending on the to-wound roll).

Stingray_tm
30-05-2008, 11:32
Rippers now are more useless than ever. They still can get instakilled and are vulnerable to blasts, but now only Troops are scoring (and Rippers still aren't), so for 10 points you better should get 2 Spinegaunts.

Souleater
30-05-2008, 11:38
The Rending Nerf is definately a the most painful nerf. It will effectively halve our rending kills. We can mitigate that somewhat with some creatures with Feeder T's (which are cool looking and fluffy models).

Where the Rending Nerf hurts is against high toughness opponents. These were always dealt with by Stealers (because frankly our MCs don't stand up too well to some ICs and enemy MCs)

Anti-vehicle bites pretty badly depending on how the damage chart handles 'bumping of damage' and cover. My aim with Nid shooting has mainly been supression. However if the Vehicle Cover Save completely negates hits (rather than automatically converting them to Shaken) then even that option goes out of the window.

CC Fexes - if they can get to the vehicle - might be able to help here but the problem is that they are going to spend two or three turns simply charging across the table which leaves the enemy vehicle still merrily blasting away at the swarm.

Broodlords and Lictors might be able to help with this. I mean Lictors will still suck against enemy infantry but they can IME kill light vehicle fairly reliably. Against anything but a Land Raider or Monolith they at least get to hit rear armour. Skimmer tanks will still be fairly tricky to take down or supress (I keep getting nightmare flashbacks to Nids vs Skimmers in Second Ed)

(I hope that BLs, Lictors and Warriors get Fleet...frankly if everybody else can run I want all our stuff except for Biovores to get Fleet, dammit! :D Oh, and higher Toughness for Lictors, Warriors and Raveners. Okay, off-topic wishlisting over! :angel: )

I really hope that Running sees the return of more Warriors. They are great models and it is a pity they don't see more use. They are still fairly fragile for the points cost, though. In my case this isnt' helped by my desire to pump biomorphs into them, making mine fragile and expensive :cries:

My other mainconcern is that if we break units and end up in no-man's land we are going to take a lot of casualties to rapid-fire. I realise that bouncing from one combat to another is OTT but our assault troops generally lack the armour to stand up to much rapid fire damage.

I will still be putting Ex Cap on stealers and warriors for this reason; priority targets such as these are not going to be able to rely on 'screening cover' all of the time.

In the enemy turn reinforcements can roll up and decimate the victorious unit. Now that might leave the Enemy exposed to assault but one or two units (especially disembarking from vehicles) could easily wipe out or cripple even a large brood of our troopers.

Yes, we can have hopefully have units ready to retaliate but loosing entire units in one go would really hurt us.

This will be a particular bitch on Assault Warriors...and rather sad....Yay! They got dusted off and taken to the fight!...oohhh...they just got rapid fired to death again.

My current concern is probably the scenario situation. If we can only hold or contest objectives with our Troops we're up Sherbert Creek without a stick of licquorice.

I did see a comment by somebody that MCs would be able to contest objectives. That seems fluffy but I still think we really should have Synapse Creatures instead of Troops as our objective holders.

Anyway, as I understand it I will have to kill everything on the enemy objective while trying to prevent the enemy from getting near my own.

Kill points...meh...the only Broods I min/max are Raveners (because they are so fragile and priority targets.)

OTOH I am hoping that Lictors, Zoanthropes and Biovores count as one VP per selection; swarms and spore mine clusters also need to be non-KP.

There has to be more to the KP system that we have heard (well, duh!) otherwise some armies are going to be bleeding KPs (also how will splliting SM squads affect their KP value, I wonder?)

So I don't think KP's will hurt my 'balanced' swarm badly. I still don't see the advantage of kill points over Victory Points, mind you. VPs give you back exactly what a unit is worth and the calculations are incredible simple.

Of my main armies I think only Necron are really going to suffer. I think Nids could come through fairly okay.

Ravenheart
30-05-2008, 11:56
Rippers now are more useless than ever. They still can get instakilled and are vulnerable to blasts, but now only Troops are scoring (and Rippers still aren't), so for 10 points you better should get 2 Spinegaunts.

Not being scooring was always their problem, that won't change.

I'm still not sure on how giving cover works in releation to MCs, Swarms and normal units; but if the absurd situation of a swarm giving an MC cover is real, they can be used to give Dakkafexes and walking Tyrants cover from Lascannons and other AP2 weapons.

Stingray_tm
30-05-2008, 11:57
Not being scooring was always their problem, that won't change.


But now they take away a valuable (LOL!) troop choice, so that matters a lot more.

Souleater
30-05-2008, 12:00
Surely screening cover saves will vary according to the size of the two units in question?

Gaunts screening Warriors...fair enough. Gaunts screening MCs? That's just stupid.

sadetta131
30-05-2008, 12:02
Feeder tendrils gives you the prefered enemy USR, if I'm not mistaken.

This USR changes in the new edition, allowing you to re-roll misses. So stealers hit on 3+ and re-roll misses, resulting in a higher amount of hits (and more chance of rending on the to-wound roll).

According from some UK forums wrote that rending still follow the same rule as 4th, but the Vehicle penetration roll of 6 will reduce to extra D3.

Am i correct? However, it's still the rumor, not really true.

Ravenheart
30-05-2008, 12:09
But now they take away a valuable (LOL!) troop choice, so that matters a lot more.

With KP in mind, large squads are imho better, thus less troop slots will be used by gaunts. Rippers can use the remaining ones.


Surely screening cover saves will vary according to the size of the two units in question?

Gaunts screening Warriors...fair enough. Gaunts screening MCs? That's just stupid.

Yes, it would be absurd. I however haven't read anything that says that this won't work.
I'd be great if someone could shed some light on this.


According from some UK forums wrote that rending still follow the same rule as 4th, but the Vehicle penetration roll of 6 will reduce to extra D3.

Rending vs. infantry: On a to wound roll of 6, you autowound and ignore armor saves.
Rending vs. vehicles: You add a D3 to vehicle penetration.

Stingray_tm
30-05-2008, 12:17
With KP in mind, large squads are imho better, thus less troop slots will be used by gaunts. Rippers can use the remaining ones.


Or you just take even more Gaunts (that can't be instakilled, aren't vulnerable to blasts and are scoring) in the remaining Troop slot instead of Rippers...?

Souleater
30-05-2008, 12:18
And can fleet, too...

Sorry, Rippers, go sit on the bench next to the Biovores...

Stingray_tm
30-05-2008, 12:23
Well, actually unless you are playing KP missions, i think Biovores will now be worthwile to take.

Terminus
30-05-2008, 12:27
Regarding the screening issue or should i say ...Of tyrantguards and gaunts. :P
I think its rather obvious that gaunts can't screen a MC but what happens when your tyrant has a couple of guards attached to his unit. They are not MC but your tyrant cannot be singled out. Nothing changes the fact that your tyrant is a MC but does this confer to the unit as a whole or does he simply walk around on all 4 and look small and silly and pop up now and then to fire of a salvo?

How do you play it? Am I missing the point or is it just that my english isnt good enough?
Sorry english isnt my native language. :P

Souleater
30-05-2008, 12:38
I'd just use common sense and say the Tyrant guard actually stand up and take the hits.

I'd like to smack the person who decided to model the Tyrant Guards like that with a rolled up newspaper and say 'No! No!' in a firm voice.

"Hmm..bodyguards for the tallest unit in the army? Let's much them really hunched over!"

@ Stingray... I dunno, Thropes and Fexes still seem a much better choice. Having to hit the same target rather than scatter shots really removed the attractiveness of Biovores for me.

At least they can penetrate I guess. I'll dust them off and see how they perform (while hoping that one day GW gives them a decent model and not a comedy Orkoid)

mchmr6677
30-05-2008, 13:44
What was that at the beginning of this thread about Feeder Tendrils are more important for Stealers now?

Tendrils are those things that give you the hit-most-things-at-3+ rule, right? But they hit most stuff on 3+ anyway, and many things they don't hit on 3+ are probably characters anyway, on which tendrils don't work. Plus, they're expensive.

Didn't you all mean acid maws? As they're letting you re-roll the wounds, and thus increasing the chance for rending?
Or am I missing somethin here?

You are missing something. The feeder tendrils grant the Favored Enemy USR which has now changed to be a re-roll to hit instead of the old hit on 3+ rule. Also, tendrils are only 1pt per model compared to acid maw which is 3pts, so there really isn't a good reason not to from a points standpoint. A really mean ploy would be to equip the broodlord with tendrils and the rest of his retinue with acid maw.

Lictor's ability to give this to other units will add a little value to them as well, although, genestealers with tendrils being screened by gaunts and then giving the reroll to hit to the screen is am awesome combo, don't you think?

DoomedDiceThrower
30-05-2008, 13:55
This USR changes in the new edition, allowing you to re-roll misses. So stealers hit on 3+ and re-roll misses, resulting in a higher amount of hits (and more chance of rending on the to-wound roll).

...oh my god...

I mean... say one gets a lictor and 10 hormagaunts charging into a MEQ unit, which shouldn't be too unlikely...
30 horma-attacks
20 hit
27 after re-roll
5 wounding
...1 dead...okay, damn, but STILL against non-MEQ-units ... :rolleyes:


EDIT: ah, wait, re-roll INSTEAD the hit-on-3+, okayokay, my mistake,
thought we would get both boni. Talk about overkill.

NallTWD
30-05-2008, 14:04
See, I don't see how rending got nerfed now that you can re-roll to hit AND wound. If anything, stealers are now nigh unstoppable. Screen them with running spinegaunts, break ranks and charge right on through. The points costs are negligible, as you now no longer need a 4+ armor save on them.

For me, this really says the broodlord is back in town. Warriors will show up en masse again for cheap synapse in the event that 'shoot the big ones' exists, as will zoats.

Nids just got seriously boosted in 5th. It means nidzillas will probably start vanishing, but I'm almost begging to see them now that I'm going to have to deal with the above unstoppable gaunt screen for re-roll/re-roll stealers.

mchmr6677
30-05-2008, 14:06
Indeed... but look at the genestealers with tendrils...

12 genestealers charge the marines for 36 attacks.
24 hits
32 after reroll
16 wound with 5 counting as ap2
7 marines die before they fight back.

Souleater
30-05-2008, 14:33
If you are talking about re-rolling hits and wounds...I don't think stealers can do that on their own. IIRC Acid Maw and Feeder T's are mutally exclusive.

You would need a supporting organism such as a Lictor to pull that combo.

As to not armouring Stealers...I remain unconvinced that at close quarters screening saves will be usuable. Additionally, extra armour is very useful in assault itself.

Edit: Again, I'm talking about the relative change in Rending against Tougher than normal targets (something I seem to find myself fighting a lot.)

I wait to see if I can get an undamaged unit of stealers into HTH, however. Screening should give them a good chance. Under current rules I normally take 2 or 3 casualties on the way in.

mchmr6677
30-05-2008, 14:38
You are correct that Acid MAw and Feeder Tendrils cannot be taken at the sametime by the genestealers. However, the broodlord leading them can take the tendrils for just 3 pts and then the rest of his retinue can have the acid maw for 3 each.

scarvet
30-05-2008, 14:40
Nah, an effective 5th ed army would be a classic/poster 'nid army.
Which will be:
10+ warrrior with deathsiptter/barded strangler, odd devourer because people have the models. These warrior will have minimal biomorph, enhanced senses will not be madatory.

2~3 brood off 15+ gaunt, be spine fist or flesh borer they are here for the objective and mod down any smaller units

Other flavor to fill up the points.

Flanking and running definitely bring brood lord back to the game; However, I think we will see more and more shooty 'nids and gaunts.

The new vehicle damage table and cover rule just put snipperfex straight out of action; I hope flanking and vehicle assault rule can cover this lose

Souleater
30-05-2008, 14:46
You are correct that Acid MAw and Feeder Tendrils cannot be taken at the sametime by the genestealers. However, the broodlord leading them can take the tendrils for just 3 pts and then the rest of his retinue can have the acid maw for 3 each.

In which case the BL is acting as the 'supporting' organism. :D

My point is that a vanilla unit of stealers can't pull the combo without outside help.

It is another reason to take the BL...mine currently has implant attacks to deal with ICs and high Toughness beasties. I'm not sure I'd want to give that up as I just don't like the 'first round only' of Acid Maw. Silly I know since Fleshhooks are the same deal :rolleyes:

EDIT@ Scarvet: Yeah, with lots of Ork armies appearing we definately need lots of Deathspitters and Barbies to thin out their numbers.

Ravenheart
30-05-2008, 15:43
Flanking and running definitely bring brood lord back to the game; However, I think we will see more and more shooty 'nids and gaunts.

If you want the Genestealers to come for boardedges, a brood lord will probably be the way to go.

A squad of 10 genestealers with scuttlers cost only 24 less than 9 Stealers & Broodlord (all without biomorphs). Granted the former has still fleet, but thanks to run, it wont be such a big factor anymore.


On an other note I wonder if the 5th will lead to a Lictor revival, considering the followning factors:

- Vehicles have def. weapons of S4 now, thus they will likely move less.
- Terrain grants vehicles cover, so they will likely be postioned near it.
- Vehilces are always hit on the backarmor which is mosly 10.
- Venom Cannons will be less effective against vehicles.
- The Lictor helps managing the right timing of reserves (infiltrating stealers, scuttling gaunts).

Tee
30-05-2008, 15:46
The Rending Nerf is definately a the most painful nerf. It will effectively halve our rending kills.

Considering Stealers have WS6, against all enemies with WS5 or below (which are 99% of units) the rending hits will be reduced by 33%.

Only Against WS6 or higher the rending nerf is by 50%.

Souleater
30-05-2008, 16:13
How do you work that out? :confused:

Yeah, I may have butchered my maths. I was thinking of the move to the '6' to rend onto the Wound roll taking away half of the auto-wounds from the current 'Rend on hit'.

Tee
30-05-2008, 16:20
Well,

Basically in 4th edition all your attacks will have 1/6 chance to rend.

In 5th edition you have all your attack minus those discarded by to hit roll (as rending will happen now on to wound roll, rather then to hit roll). Because Stealers have Ws6 it means in most of the case (vs lower WS) is 3+ to hit (66% of them will pass the to hit roll), which measn 66% of attacks will have a chance to rend (or in other words, 33% will not have a chance to rend).


If I continue to do math hammer and add Acid Maw:

In 4th edition 1 attack has 16.6% chance to rend


In 5th edition

Vs Ws 5 (without Acid Maw) or lower 1 attack has 11% chance to rend

Vs To 4 (Ws 5 or lower), with Acid Maw 1 attack has 16.5% chance to rend
Vs To 3 (Ws 5 or lower), with Acid Maw 1 attack has 14.6% chance to rend

So basically you will decide if it worth paying 4 pts Acid Maw which increase rend chance by 3.6% to 4.5% (depending on enemy toughness). Also it will increase your to wound roll by 17% to 25%, at an increase cost of 25%. Personally I don't believe Acid Maw will become mandatory, but you will need to think twice before adding a Biomorph to your Stealers.

Looking at the rumors about Scouts, I think Scuttlers will be most used Biomorph (especially I expect a strong comeback of Stealer rush armies, having also in mind the demise of Mech lists).

Anyway, have no worries, even with the rending nerf Stealers will remain at the top of the chain food in 5th edition, as one of the top tier assault units (personally I think they will top Harlies). As long the new meta-game will be set around close combat fights, that it is an environment where Stealers will always dominate.

Best regards,
T.

Jictor89
30-05-2008, 16:29
There is Two things i notice people haven't said anything about. These are things i've heard, im not sure if their true though

1, You no longer have to be two inches when you group is charging to attack. This is useful for large number groups of units and now they can attack all at once, this should help in tight areas too.

2, i've heard only infantry can hold corners. This means something very simple. We ignore vechicals, kill all there troops, and there screwed because they have nothing to hold quarters with. of course we send meat sheilds to distract the vechicals and then genestealers and warriors and what not to kill there troops. then we run behind cover and wait them to die out cause they can't hold qauters.

Also, the nerfing of rending is bad, since on to wound, but then again i kinda makes more sence, but then again, we can have acid maw to re-roll wounds, thus making it having chance to rend.

Of course, my biggest fear is that the vechicals can ram. this means everybody gonna get lander raiders, or whatever big beefy vechical and run over are bugs as a sick joke.

And since everything is gaining run, what about spore mines? wouldn't they be able to be propelled into tanks quicker? we really need the best tyranid hive minds to protect the swarm.

IJW
30-05-2008, 16:36
2, i've heard only infantry can hold corners. This means something very simple. We ignore vechicals, kill all there troops, and there screwed because they have nothing to hold quarters with.
Troop choices, not infantry.

gorgon
30-05-2008, 19:33
If you want the Genestealers to come for boardedges, a brood lord will probably be the way to go.

Yeah, I think Broodlords are back in play now. The BL unit still might have to endure a round of firepower before they hit, since they can only run and not fleet. But it's certainly more viable.


On an other note I wonder if the 5th will lead to a Lictor revival, considering the followning factors:

I don't see it happening. Just look what it competes with. Carnifexes will still be very good, and Warriors are going to get a boost and possibly become more attractive for synapse too if Zoeys get penalized by the KP rule. The Lictor is still going to be pretty weaksauce when assaulting, and will suffer by comparision to the other Elites choices.

Not saying some won't give it a try, mind you. But I'd be surprised to see a real revival. The unit needs to be reworked before that happens.

Ravenheart
30-05-2008, 19:53
I don't see it happening. Just look what it competes with. Carnifexes will still be very good, and Warriors are going to get a boost and possibly become more attractive for synapse too if Zoeys get penalized by the KP rule. The Lictor is still going to be pretty weaksauce when assaulting, and will suffer by comparision to the other Elites choices.

That's very true, it faces a hard competition for that Elite slot; though certain army settups might draw more benefits from the Lictor in the 5th. A horde based army with many scuttlers for example.
Assulting squads of infantry is still a no-no, however I can see possibilities of assulting tanks that are far at the back and in cover (where the lictor deepstrikes), now that ranged weapons have been reduced in effectivnes agains tanks indirectly.

Also is it possible to prevent an unit that comes in as reserves from doings so trough Lictor's pheromon trace ability (i.e.: rerolling a succesfull roll)?
I thought of placing a squad or two of cheap-ish gaunts with scuttlers in reserve and try let them in as late as possible (5 turn, they get in automaticly) and place them near objectives. Being in reserves most of the game, they will have suffered less losses and may be able to actually hold an objective. This is quite a gamble but a possibily where the lictor might be usefull.

I'm still sceptical but I'll surely give a try.

mchmr6677
30-05-2008, 20:09
I will admit to feeling stupid for a moment...
I was about to tell you (Ravenheart) that the lictor's ability doesn't work that way, but the rule says nothing about weither the roll has to fail or not. I will admit never thinking of using that ability in that kind of way before...

Painnen
30-05-2008, 21:36
I was reading up on the lictor, since I will be running a 'stealer rush list once 5th hits. That being said, the lictor will be very nice in saving points on morphs like tendrils but at the cost of an 80 lictor.

My question is, How good will a Lictor's cover save improve in 5th ed?

Here's my thoughts.

1) Lictors appear in cover. I read that 2" of cover will net you a 4+ cover save. Or likewise, a troop screen will net you a 4+ cover save. Lictors have an ability called Stealth. So will Lictors be seeing a 2+ cover save in these instances? I think that boosts their defencive capabilities immensely.

2) If a Lictor can drop just 1 tank/skimmer/vehicle then they make their points back.

3) Once they drop that vehicle, getting "stuck-in" with the scuttlers will make their value greatly increase as the math'hammerers have shown the effectiveness of Feeder Tendrils.

4) Hit and Run also should improve the Lictor's survivability. Now that all enemy units can counterattack, there is a good chance that someone will be in BtB with the lictor after combat. I think this could free up the Lictor to join yet another scuttling unit in the next turn rather than being shot to hell and back. (that is if the cover save inproves to 2+.)

Souleater
30-05-2008, 21:42
I agree with Ravenheart, stealers will still be utterly useless for attacking infantry (oh, heady days of Lictors in 2nd Edition, how I miss you!!! ) but they might be useful for bushwhacking tanks.

If they come in at turn 3 onwards they can drop near an enemy vehicle, hopefully kill it or force it to leave it's cover, then in an ideal world go on to support nearby gaunts, Assault Warriors and Fexes (all units that will benefit from the Lictor's Feeder T's)

This is a rather narrow use of 80pts but at least it gives Lictors a role

Atzcapotzalco
30-05-2008, 22:36
One detail I'm surprised not to see mentioned yet is the revised "no retreat" rules, where fearless units take an additional wound for every wound they lost the combat by. Combined with the lack of any bonuses for outnumbering, gaunts and ripper swarms become a lot less survivable, but I'm more concerned that they've gone from being able to support our more elite units in an assault with extra numbers, they now become something of a handicap, since even a monstrous creature can suffer a large number of wounds thanks to its accompanying gaunts getting killed. Thoughts?

cochise
30-05-2008, 23:27
Gaunts arenīt fearless. Synapse means you auto-pass any leadership test but it doesnīt confers fearless per se. So gaunts wont take a single wound by losing combat.
Ripper swarms are fearless though, as are monster creatures and lictors.

Painnen
30-05-2008, 23:41
I know that the list I'm going to attempt running in 5th @1,500pts. will not have a gaunt mob in it. And it's basically for the reason you mentioned.

Cupple that with a meager 12"-16" range in the shooting phase, and the ability to shoot through them to KO other units.

If anything gaunts are going to be "allowed" to sit on objectives while the enemy just knocks out your synapse creatures. They also will be "allowed" to hold objectives until turn 5 or so. At that time, something will either be in range to Rapid Fire them to death, charge and maul them to pieces, or in the least contest them.

Taking the other side of the subject...

Gaunts are gonna be one of the most important units Tyranids field. In numbers of 20+, it will be hard for the enemy to wipe them out without spending resources > than the points cost of the gaunt units themselves.

Gaunt units must me COMPLETELY destroyed to be non-scoring, and I would assume non-contesting. Fielding 100+ gaunts will really tax the enemy's resources.

Firaxin
31-05-2008, 02:04
Not sure when the following scenario would ever come up, but:

Would rippers behind a unit of say, gaunts, get a 3+ cover save for being small targets?

mchmr6677
31-05-2008, 06:28
Painnen, you are making a fundimental mistake in tyranid tactical importance. The shooting phase is there to get closer to the goal (running/fleeting into assault range) or to score a few random wounds over the first two turns. We don't rely on shooting to inflict heavy damage, just to annoy our opponent until the swarm crushes their front line and sweeps forward.

That being said, I love the look on SM players faces when one of the 4 20+ termigaunt broods I run annilates a terminator squad by the shear weight of fire they put out. The next time they play me they consentrate on the gaunts and the CC carnifexes do the damage, or maybe the overlooked warrior brood. If your opponent is able to wipe out your synapse, then you aren't playing very well or are seriously undermanned in that department.

rebmonk
31-05-2008, 15:31
Painnen, you are making a fundimental mistake in tyranid tactical importance. The shooting phase is there to get closer to the goal (running/fleeting into assault range) or to score a few random wounds over the first two turns. We don't rely on shooting to inflict heavy damage, just to annoy our opponent until the swarm crushes their front line and sweeps forward.

That being said, I love the look on SM players faces when one of the 4 20+ termigaunt broods I run annilates a terminator squad by the shear weight of fire they put out. The next time they play me they consentrate on the gaunts and the CC carnifexes do the damage, or maybe the overlooked warrior brood. If your opponent is able to wipe out your synapse, then you aren't playing very well or are seriously undermanned in that department.

are you kidding? The twinlinked devourers on our MC's are amazing: im basically telling my opponent: "Take 6 (carnie) or 9 (tyrant) armor saves." The devourers were amazing, and now with the new edition warp blast and deathspitters and barbed stranglers just got better. Shooting can definitely thin their ranks out before we hit them. Concentrate devourers on skimmers/troops and the sniper fexes on their big tanks, and you'll have a lot more guys hit their line. Granted, this might change a lot in 5th, but never underestimate tyranid shooting.

max the dog
31-05-2008, 16:27
I found a few more hints from a reliable site. Most of it I've heard but the new one is the consolidation change. We can't consolidate directly into a new unit to stay in close combat. That's going to hurt my tactics horribly. Not being able to jump from unit to unit while still staying in close combat is going to hurt badly.

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/05/rumors-5th-edition-changes.html

Spinegaunt01
31-05-2008, 18:24
Regarding screening
Correct me if I'm wrong but......

Rippers are half the size of a gaunt
Gaunts are half the size of a warrior
Warriors are half the size of a MC

So.... following this logic of screening units, the rippers screen gaunts and gaunts screen warriors and basically if it is not a ripper, it gets a 4+ cover save..... Right? If so that is a big bonus to anything that is not a ripper, a points saver in that nothing really needs to buy carapace upgrades and enables even more gribblies. If so, excellent. Though I still don't like the now sheer lack of any anti-tank in a Tyranid force now. I see too many LR crusaders appearing :(

max the dog
31-05-2008, 20:07
We can deal with light armor in the AV10-11 range but anything up from there is almost impossible to deal with. By the time one figures on AV14 Land Raiders we're nearly helpless as only a fex can effectively deal with it. Even a running fex is going to have massive problems charging a Land Raider without getting shot to pieces. AV14 Skimmers are over the top.

Chaos Lord Primus
31-05-2008, 21:08
We can deal with light armor in the AV10-11 range but anything up from there is almost impossible to deal with. By the time one figures on AV14 Land Raiders we're nearly helpless as only a fex can effectively deal with it. Even a running fex is going to have massive problems charging a Land Raider without getting shot to pieces. AV14 Skimmers are over the top.

Name an AV 14 skimmer besides the Master of the Ravenwing's Landspeeder. That's kind of a moot point otherwise, having one unit being very difficult for an army to destroy isn't a much of a threat.

Ravenheart
31-05-2008, 21:14
Name an AV 14 skimmer besides the Master of the Ravenwing's Landspeeder. That's kind of a moot point otherwise, having one unit being very difficult for an army to destroy isn't a much of a threat.

Monolith!

As rumors go skimmers won't be hit only on 6 anymore, but follow the rules of normal vehicles, thus being easyer to hit.

thanoson
31-05-2008, 23:40
What, we can hit skimmers normally now in hth? Awesome.

rebmonk
01-06-2008, 02:07
no i think we still hit skimmers on 6's. Also, rippers and swarms cant block los and give the 4+ cover save

Painnen
01-06-2008, 02:40
I read on another site that units with fleet can assault the turn they deepstrike...is this true?

I know that Lictors can...but it says so as a special rule.

Also, I'm gonna assume that "fleet" is short for "fleet of foot/claw"? And if that's true, then why would they say that Ravengers have fleet?

mchmr6677
01-06-2008, 04:28
Rumors have been flowing around that fleet would allow assaults after deepstriking. They are false, but continue to give Daemon players the hope of pulling off that trick which is rightly limited to our lictors...

rebmonk
01-06-2008, 16:49
ya its just a rumor and after reading the rulebook and looking at fleet of .... ya theres no mention of a rule allowing you to assault after deepstriking, though whether u have fleet or not you can still shoot or run.

cochise
01-06-2008, 22:23
Iīll put my 5th edition FAQ wishlist here. I seriously think these changes or something similar should be applied to keep some units playable under the new set of rules:

- Zoans should give away only a kill point for the entire unit (I hope this one doesnīt even need the faq, but everyone that has seen the book seem to contradict the idea).
3 kill points for 3 relatively fragile and important miniatures is just too much. Itīs like a double present for the enemy, killing the nids synapse (and only "reliable" ranged antitank weapons) and getting easy kill points at the same time. Doube winnings!!!

- Spore mines shouldnīt give kill points...at all. Iīm thinking mainly of spore mine clusters here, donīt want to think of the possibility of the ones shooted by biovores giving points away...

- Lictors, well there is a dime possibility that they would be usefull if they FAQed that the reserves re-roll could be used to determine the side of the board that scuttling units enter the game. It seems logical that the "pheromone trail" can be used to make them come faster and "from the right side"...following the trail. If not, with the new pile in move and combat resolution he will be more useless than ever and, he will still give that odd kill point away...more than one if you dare field them. (Same case as the zoans here for kill points and units)

- Ripper swarms: the little guys are screwed. They retain their weaknesses but loose their improved cover save. The pile in move and combat resolution + beeing fearless+ crappy stats means that they will die upon entering contact with the enemy base. Furthermore they occupy a troop slot and they canīt hold objectives. They loose in every single aspect vs. gaunts in the function they are supposed to do (They shouldnīt be of much help screening because of their size too).
Sadly there is no simple tweak I can think of to make the worth fielding. The only thing would be to make them not give away a kill point, but I honestly think they just donīt care about them. They are not sold separately and thus arenīt worth any attention.

Other than that I think we should do ok in 5th edition...if we donīt face many AV 14 in our ways of course...

And on the positive side:

- Scuttling stealers rock!!!
- Without numbers could be useful (screen your units and come back after death to hold objectives)
- Warriors and Broodlords run, they will keep up with the swarm at least!!!! Well, everybody runs, but those two needed it badly.
- Blast weapons always scatter and no partials, no need to buy expensive BS upgrades, just shoot and something will get hit.
- Feeder tendrils will be great, of course we now need to buy them for our stealers to keep them on the top of the food chain making them a point more expensive, but for our gaunts it will be a great improvement.
- Tanks are hit on the rear armour. More than an improvement it was a necessity with the new damage table, but I like the idea.

Canīt think of nothing else right now, I just hope they fix the mentioned units as I have enough paperweights hanging around and some of them couldnīt even do that job.

Stingray_tm
01-06-2008, 22:33
"Penetrating" hits with Venom Cannons should not be reduced to glancing hits, but instead get -1 on the damage chart. It would work very well and also it could be justified by the venom cannon already having a special rule, that can be replaced by a new special rule.

Boxingclever
01-06-2008, 23:34
Based on all the things discussed so far, can a few of you share how many fexes you are going to be using, what your using them for, as well as their loadout?

cochise
02-06-2008, 00:07
I think my dakkafexes will still get a place in the list, but now they may as well occupy a heavy slot, as sniperfexes donīt seem that usefull. That way I will have resilient dakkafexes . 1 or 2 of them will be there for sure. Those shots are priceless with the new CC resolution (to shoot unlocked units like harlies and other nasties after a CC) and to wither down ork mobs and the like. Tyrants may keep the venom canon, as itīs still an effective way of keeping enemy vehicles without shooting untill you reach them in CC. Winged Tyrants will be able to hunt enemy vehicles more effectively, and now can hit skimmers. A team of these two could prove to be very useful, the broodlord option pushes strongly for on of their places though.

So I expect to keep seeing at least on tyrant, similar to those fielded nowadays, and 1 or 2 dakkafexes. CC carnifexes may be fielded at the beginning due to the new run ability, but I think they will dissapear as fast as they came. Simply put, there are better options for CC duty in our army. The ones that will suffer most are the sniperfexes. They are too expensive for those 2 BS3 shoots. And we need more points for our troops. (Scuttlers, without numbers, tendrils...and more gaunts!!!!) I think those points will come from the sniperfexes.

Painnen
02-06-2008, 01:55
I can see how effective feeder tendrils will be for genestealers, but we can't have flesh hooks at the same time...

Can anyone give a pro/con for using feeder tendrils over flesh hooks that have seen how flesh hooks (frag grenades) will work in 5th?

I know I'll be using feeder tendrils on my broodlord, and so will use flesh hooks on those 'stealers in his routine, but i'm on the fence about all the other 'stealer units having tendrils.

Souleater
02-06-2008, 08:59
I''l try a few games with my existing list to see just how this are affected. Then try some swapping around to see what I come up with.

Currently I use HS Dakkafexes (for the extra wound and spinebanks). I might add some ExCap to this fella depending on how things go.

I will keep the VC/BS on my Tyrant as his main role is anti-personnel fire with occasional anti-transport suppression. He should still be able to perform in this role.

Sniperfexes...part of me it tempted to hang onto the VC for AT supression work. I want to see how cover for vehicles is going to effect this. If it is straight out nullifying hits then I might stick to Warriors and Tyrants with VCs for AT.

In that case Mr Sniperfex drops his VC for a TL Devourer. He can supress transports or thin out enemy hordes depending on the army I face. Late game he becomes pure anti-personnel, either way.

CC fexes...I am not convinced, sadly. They are still going to get smacked about by the things that killed them in CC previously. Maybe getting to the fight sooner will help them out. Points wise I will probably try and keep them under 150pts each. I don't think that increasing their points above that level makes enough of a difference, under 4th I found 2 cheap cc fexes better than my single uberfex. But I'm willing to try Uberfex because the model 'rocks the house'.

OTOH if the pair can make it into CC with a single unit of non-heroic infantry they might be able to tear it to bits and punch a hole in the enemy line.

If Biovores get to ignore cover (because of arching shots overhead?) they could see a return for anti-vehicle. Lictors might be of use here, too.

Edit: I still want to talk about Warriors! :D

I'm looking at four configurations of these guys. I usually run broods of 4 or 5 models according to points. I spend way too many points on them.

My assault Warriors are currently Winged with RC/ST and pretty much every CC useful uprgrade. I think they are about 50pts. Yeah, I know. Still, they seem to do okay with cover and alternate threats atm.

I'm considering a second brood for assault: Leaping Warriors with RC/ST...again probably overburdened with upgrades but they have proved useful if costly.

For shooting I currently have a brood of guys with Dev/RC as general all-rounders. I'm wondering if come the new rules I'll be ripping their RCs off to make the leaping warriors and giving these guys an Extra devourer - this would net them an extra MEQ kill per turn with shooting.

My support fire brood (VC with four DS) will probably remain the same (including Enhanced Senses). I might swap out their STs for a TL DSpitter to make a hyper accurate shooty squad.

graveaccomplice
02-06-2008, 09:21
Can anyone give a pro/con for using feeder tendrils over flesh hooks that have seen how flesh hooks (frag grenades) will work in 5th?


The only time you'd need to worry about the bonus flesh hooks provide is when you're assaulting into cover. If you run into someone faster out in the open, the flesh hooks won't help at all. Catalyst negates both issues for fewer points than the flesh hooks would cost. On the flip side, spending the extra points means not having THAT advantage negated by Rune of Warding or whatnot.

FunkyRatDemon
11-06-2008, 05:21
A really mean ploy would be to equip the broodlord with tendrils and the rest of his retinue with acid maw.

Is this plausable? Tyranids are not an army i often use (I like my Chaos more), So the Broodlord doesn't need to have the same equip/biomorphs as his retinue?
If so, that will clear up even more points for extra spinegaunts!

(New guy here, trolled for a while though)

My list in 5th for 1850 will look like:
HQ: Broodlord, Tendrils, Genestealer x11, Extended Carapace x11

Elites: Warriors x5, Leaping x5, Extended Carapace x5, Toxin Sac x5, Scything Talons x5, Rending Talons x3, Lash Whip x2
Elites: Warriors x5, Extended Carapace x5, Enhanced Sences x5, Scything Talons x5, Deathspitter x4, Barbed Strangler x1

Troops: Spinegaunt x18
Troops: Spinegaunt x18
Troops: Spinegaunt x18
Troops: Termagaunt x18
Troops: Termagaunt x18
Troops: Genestealer x12, Extended Carapace x12, Tendrils x12

Heavy: Carnifex, Enhanced Sences, Twin-linked Devourer x2
Heavy: Carnifex, Enhanced Sences, Twin-linked Devourer x2
Heavy: Zoanthrope x2. War[ Blast x2, Synapse Creature x2

Mind you I do normally play Chaos, and haven't broke out this army for about 2.5 years, but 5th ed seems rather awesome for Bugs

Any suggestions for the list? (don't have my codex on hand, might be off by like 50 or-so pts, if so throw in more gaunts...)

zealousheretic
11-06-2008, 17:59
Edit: I still want to talk about Warriors! :D

I'm looking at four configurations of these guys. I usually run broods of 4 or 5 models according to points. I spend way too many points on them.

My assault Warriors are currently Winged with RC/ST and pretty much every CC useful uprgrade. I think they are about 50pts. Yeah, I know. Still, they seem to do okay with cover and alternate threats atm.

I'm considering a second brood for assault: Leaping Warriors with RC/ST...again probably overburdened with upgrades but they have proved useful if costly.

For shooting I currently have a brood of guys with Dev/RC as general all-rounders. I'm wondering if come the new rules I'll be ripping their RCs off to make the leaping warriors and giving these guys an Extra devourer - this would net them an extra MEQ kill per turn with shooting.

My support fire brood (VC with four DS) will probably remain the same (including Enhanced Senses). I might swap out their STs for a TL DSpitter to make a hyper accurate shooty squad.

Assault warriors in 5th might be able to make a comeback.

Depending on exactly how screening works, being able to create your own 4+ cover for warriors will help their survivability immensely.

Rending changes mean that the optimal build is no longer ST/RC, I5, leaping/wings and carapace if leaping. Since rending happens on the wound roll, WS5 is now very desirable to ensure more hits and more potential rends. Carapace, on the other hand, may not be entirely mandatory if gaunts can provide 4+ cover saves for the warriors.

Bio-plasma is an intriguing option that the new assault rules make a bit better. The addition of a reaction move and casualties being pulled from anywhere makes it less of a risk, since previously that hail of I8 attacks could potentially deny you attacks if you killed everything you were in base contact with. It can't rend, but it does give warriors potentially 5 attacks the turn they assault. It also might give winged warriors a fair shot at dealing with skimmers, since they'll count as attacking the rear armor and bio-plasma always hits on a 4+.

Can winged warriors run? If so, they'll be scary fast.

Dammit, now I've talked myself into trying to find the cash to get some of those swanky forge world warrior wings...