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Cheesejoff
21-04-2005, 19:41
Is the old Empire tactica thread gone? If so, we should start a new one! To get the ball rolling, who do you usually take as that all-important character; your General? What do you equip him with? Where does he go? Mine is usually an EC in a unit of GS, kitted out with full plate and the Holy Relic. This keeps him cheap, and a GW gives him some hitting power. If I'm going up against Chaos or VC, I might take a 1+ save, 4+ ward, and VHS for an uber lord-killer :p

Angerland
23-04-2005, 05:50
I don't have time to post very much right now, but I will ad this all important mantra for Empire players...say it once before each game and repeat throughout as needed.

"Ranks and Flanks"

The Judge
23-04-2005, 21:00
Character selection wise - I favour a warrior priest with the Icon of Magnus and Sigil of Sigmar. His unit now has Magic Resistence 1 and is Immune to Fear. Pricy, but effective, especially in larger games with the Greatswords and another character for the hitting power.

I play a lot of Undead, Ogres and Nurgle. Fear is abundant at GW Bournemouth.

Templar_Victorious
28-04-2005, 06:24
I play solely Empire in FB and I have made it standard in a 1000pts battle to use a Captain with full plate, shield, lance, barded warhorse and a Sword of might, and going in a unit of 5 I.C Knights. And the other Character is a lvl 2 Wizard, with a wizard staff (actually only a point filler). He usually uses the staff in combo with a successfully cast Comet of Cassandora to giver a bigger chance to cast that Second Sign of Amul (if I should be lucky and roll a 6 and another spell). He managed to call down a comet ranging 24" from the marker. The table we were playing on is 49"x48" big. He and a mortar w crew was all on the table that was without range. It fell short right infront of him. :D Guess i didn't really counted on a comet that large. Next comet was only 2" from the marker. What a joke!!! The big one costed me more in troops than my friend, who played orcs, which had more resilient units... Even though, I managed to take back the game and win by 4 points, a minor victory.

Darmort
28-04-2005, 17:04
You can't have Sword of Might and lance, in combat you must always use a Magical weapon in combat, you have no choice.
One effect items like Web of Shadows will still count as a Magical Weapon, so unless you're fighting against an opponent that likes killing your Magic Items (Malekith and certin Dwarf Lords), mundane weapons are useless and a waste of points. Second time I've had to say that....

This week.

Still, for those of you who're Magic heavy, have thre Wizards, two with lore of Fire, one with Heavens.

Hope for firewall, cast a firewall infront and behind a beefy unit (Chaos Warriors, Knights and so on), then Comet comes down. No matter what that unit does, it's going to get hurt! Try casting Firewall ontop of the unit as well!

Templar_Victorious
29-04-2005, 01:16
Thanks for the direction. This has never been pointed out by my fellow gamers, who set out once, to teach me the game, and hence, let me use the lance on charge and then later, the Magic sword... I blame them. As they never questioned it, I never took time to look for it in the BRB.

Templar_Victorious
29-04-2005, 01:18
Come on, come on, people, write down your tactics and characters. IS anything but swordsmen really any good as CC troops?

Sariel
29-04-2005, 04:52
Well, assuming its a 2000-point game:

Elector Count, full plate, GW, barded warhorse, Holy Relic
Captain, GW, Pegasus, Armour of Meteoric Iron
Wizard, lvl 2, 2 scrolls
Wizard, lvl 2, Rod of Power

Elector Count runs around on his horse, waving his sword in the air and being inspirational. Usually in FRONT of my troops (ie he's the nearest target). I have complete faith in my 1+/4+ save, and every round of shooting you waste on the EC is one round that isn't killing troops.

The Captain is my designated war-machine killer (except for Hellblasters and Hell Cannon, that is). He's especially good at whacking bolt throwers - fly him up a full 20" (so he's probably within 8" of the bolt thrower). During my opponent's turn, watch in amusement as just about every mage and missile unit in his army targets the Pegasus Captain.

Chances are, the pegasus gets turned into so much vulture kibble. (I like to think of a Pegasus as a 50-point magic item that lets a character move 20" and gives him a 2+ ward for 2-3 turns before running out).

Thing is, the Captain is now a single character on foot (ie 360 LOS and -1 to hit him with BS missile fire) within charge range of the war machine/mage anyway! And since, chances are the other guy used his big guns (bolt throwers, magic, magical bows) first, all I have left to worry about is normal S3/4 shooting that (should!) bounce off my Armour of Meteoric Iron like a gentle spring rain.....

Lots of fun when an opponent flew his Elven Archmage right behind the Captain (ie within 8") and blasted the Pegasus apart with magic missiles. Captain now has a 360 charge arc, and proceeds to beat the snot out of said Archmage.....

And of course, if there are'nt any juicy war machines (or they're all dead), I can always use him like any other fast mobile character (supporting charges, chasing down fleeing units, blocking marches...)

Wizards - fairly self-explanatory. 2 scrolls and the Rod lets me switch between offensive and defensive magic phases.

If the opponent is going magic-light, I take Lore of Life and hope for anything except Rain Lord. If he's got a fair-to-heavy amount of magical mojo, I take the Lore of Heavens, use 2 dice for 2nd Sign, and use the Rod to save the rest of my power dice for the opponent's magic phase.

Snoozer
29-04-2005, 10:28
Come on, come on, people, write down your tactics and characters. IS anything but swordsmen really any good as CC troops?

I dont have a Empire army, but my brother does and I just have to say I really hate free company, they are cheap and they have 2 attacks and as they say more is always better (I play a O&G army so I know).

When swordmen start to hit my orcs I ain't worried at all, 6 attacks with str3 aint going to hurt my orcs, but 10 attacks will (with free company you just have to get the charge, because they don't have armor)

It's a good thing that he hasen't noticed how good they are against my orcs and only uses them as detachments

:D

Faust
29-04-2005, 18:17
I would have to say that a spearmen regiment about 25 model strong with a Griffon banner along with a little commander in it with Full plate and a Halberd with the shiny little item called the 'rod of command' is a nice little addition to the army esp. against those silly fear causing units. Hold for a turn and then flank them with your detachments.
Faust

beowulf
07-05-2005, 06:49
Greetings fellow Generals,

On characters :

===== EC vs Grandmaster ? =======

Deciding what general you take is often one of the first (if not the first) decision you make when building your army. This works relatively well with other armies but not that really with the Empire... This is because the general you need will heavily depend on the troops you have.

The major advantage of an Empire lord does not lie in its combat abilities but in his leadership. This means, your guy needs to be within leading distance of his troops, if you plan to have an infantry army, your EC should be a natural choice, you can benefit from a larger leadership radius on your troops and he's not going to leave your frontline.

By default, an Elector count is my preferred personal choice, he is flexible and he fits in nicely in the Greatswords unit (this is not extremely effective, pointwise (a lot of points in one unit) but it is in line with the fluff. He's generally given a handgun (why not take advantage of his BW?), and the sword of Sigismund, this makes a quite solide unit. Plus you can also take a magical banner for one of your statestroops.

Now, should you go for an all mounted (or quasi all mounted) Empire army, a la Rohan, go for a grandmaster. You will be able to leverage his cost more efficiently and he will remain with the bulk of your troops, making them benefit from his ld.

This is a relatively simple description of the main two lord choices, and there might be other points we need to contemplate (ie Fluff, cost effectiveness,.. ) comments will be welcome.

Another thing, shouldn't we finish off discussing all character types before moving to the actual units? I've not seen much on wizards & heroes so far... Someone should also volunteer to organize the thread a bit, raising new questions etc. - otherwise this nice initiative could go into a mess in a few weeks..

Cheers,

Beo

Cheesejoff
08-05-2005, 17:07
Beowulf, I agree with your views; EC for infantry; GM for mounted. Wizard Lords... I don't really favour them, Leadership is more important than magic, especially for Empire.

Ok, so moving onto hereos...what hereos do you usually take (In say, 2000pts or so)
For me I'd take:

Wizard: Scroll Caddy, nuff said :p

Captain: Full Plate, Greatsword; basically he's there to provide a few kills to tip the combat while remaining as cheap as possible.

Warrior Priest: A controversial choice, but it means all my units have one model that might kill something. Basically I couldn't decide between wizard or captain so I went for the in-between option. Also, he's there for fluff purposes.

Avatar of Jack
09-05-2005, 03:32
@ Faust: That is one of the key units in my army, and is the first one to make it onto the army list (that and the elector count you have to have to take the banner).

I make the following statements with regards to 2000 point armies.

Lords

Elector Count: He is very important for predominantly infantry armies, which in my opinion is the most effective form of empire army. The leadership he provides, and the standard he allows you to take, makes him vital part of the empire army.

Grand Master: I'm not a fan of the Grand Master, because he is expensive, and only really fits into a heavily mounted army. As I indicated earlier, I think that the empire army is more effective when the bulk of the troops are infantry, at the very least 50/50 foot troops to knights.

Wizard Lords: Once again, I'm not a fan, this time because wizards are not really necessary for the empire to function properly. They may be a nice add on, but empire characters are more important for their ability to bolster the ranks. They are hardly necessary for extra firepower; having said that, they can be very useful when they have dominance over the magic phase. To achieve this dominance, however, you must include more wizards, and as a result less captains and priests, and your rank and file will suffer accordingly.

Heroes

Warrior Priests: I make it a rule to add at least one Warrior Priest in my army for my own personal fluff reasons, but I find that mounting him on a barded warhorse and adding him to your unit of Inner Circle Knights is effective against Chaos enemies. Being able to re-roll misses on then charge where your attacks are Str 6 give you a chance against all manner of Chaos units. I would arm him with a Sword (hammer ;) ) of Might or Power and kit out his armour.
Usually though I will have a Warrior Priest join a unit of Spearmen or some such, as he works similar to (but to a lesser extent then) the captain below.

Captains: Cheap, good quality additions to foot units because, like Cheesejoff said, they can effectively tip combat in your favour. I have mine leading my unit of Spearmen.

Wizards: They are indeed Dispel Scroll caddies, and are a little useful when they use the Lore of the Heavens and Second Sign. Second Sign is particularly useful for the Empire, who aren't especially skilled troops.

Cheesejoff
18-05-2005, 16:35
I agree with your point on wizards. Anyone else like to share some advice with us? :)

Avatar of Jack
19-05-2005, 09:20
That's characters done, lets talk core choices. What do people find the most effective?

For 2000 points, I take at least two large (24+) company of Swordsmen and Spearmen each supported by a detachment of 10+ Free company, 2 units of 5 knights with musicians, 6 Hunters and a units of about 12 handgunners with musician. Detachments are one of the best things the Empire have going for them.

Cheesejoff
19-05-2005, 10:31
Detachments are THE best thing Empire have going for them. I usually use 2-3 blocks of 24 infantry, with detachments of 8 free comp/halberds, and sometimes 6 handgunners. I also use 5 knights and 12 handgunners.

gortexgunnerson
20-05-2005, 14:31
The rules for detachments are wrong and broken lol! But thats a good thing if you play empire. Am just starting out an empire army as think they could be done very well having fought them a number of times and played few tester games.

My main notes:

Wizard lords are over looked in their power as control of the magic phase is key when playing with low leadership troops such as Empire. Ok you have scroll cadies to block the first few turns but then high level spells such flames of phoniex of conflag of doom will wipe out large units like their going out of fashion.

Detachments function best wheh combined with heavy shooting armies, HOWEVER are still oh so good in any type of armies. As genereally I hild bak from close combat til have hammered detachments to death and then engage and over power units in 1 to 1. When you large amounts of shooting the oppenent cannot afford to delay engageing your line. But am not suggesting everyone plays gunlines as they are abit dull!

Empire can create highly effective kill zones (flatlines are weak as reduce your advantage of numbers) Box like set ups such as castle hills with a few flankers are very effective as forces you oppenet to advance towards all your troops limiting their ability to pick battles! You can then afford to throw a few cheap units in to draw enemy units into charge range of your swordmen or detachmented fighting units. Also allows Genereal Ld to apply to most units. Sorry off topic their.. Kill zones, empire have so many troops that they can set up very affective cover fire to protect weak points, e.g. artillery function well together as any body wishing to approach must genereal be within grapeshot or hellblaster range. So whereas Bolt throwers and stone throwers benefit from dispersed deployment cannons/hellblasters are better deployed in pairs. This is more a taste thing then a key tactic I just know that everytime i need a good roll on the artillery dice with my Organ gun (mainly dwarf player) I roll a 2 and the artillery gets munched, whereas with 2 you can generally cream any fast calavry units or flyers that come near.

Also combined gunlines which mix and match missile troops and artillery work better then straight 1 type as you can pick and mix the ranged shooty death for the target. Also the inclusion of archers gives you lie the ability to respond to flanking troops teleports, raises etc which move or fire guns cannot provide.

Anyway thats just my opinions on what i think is affective but must admit that as a mainly dwarf player my games are mainly slug fests of guns so my tactical knowledge is limited for other army types as knight based armies just die a death against dwarfs so have never rated them (this may spark cries of angish but is just my experience)

Hal
23-05-2005, 07:09
My army?

A 1+/4+ save Elector count. Goes with my spears. 'nuff said
2 ("two") caddies. May seem a little superfluous, but all the other gits around here use loads of magic. I'll be lucky to get three spells off in a game. These run around aimlessly, avoiding fire as best they can.
One Warrior Priest with Icon, mounted on barded steed and with GW. he gives my knights a little extra punch.

One block of a mere 20 spearmen. Why? might you ask? because with my strategy (a take on Horns of the Bull), they almost never get into combat. They sit pretty, looking scary and drawing fire. Also accompanied by 5 handgunners and 10 FC. Just for looks. Also hold Griffon banner.

8 Knights of the inner Circle. With warbanner and full command. And a friendly WP tagging along. one half of my horns.

A cannon, a mortar and a HBVG. Also 12 handgunners with a RHG marksman They sit back and stop anything from coming too close to the main unit. If possible, these guys go on a hill behind my spears. Anyone comes within range? Bam! bang! Boom boom boom! Not much can be said

The other piece of my horns - A Steam tank. mainly a psych weapon, plus a cannon on wheels. Does WAY less damage then my knights. I only ever let it do 350 (its point value) VP's of destruction. No one calls it cheesy anymore.

My cannon also takes out the usual suspects - monsters, cvharacters and other artillery.

My win loss record with this army? of 70 games? 5 losses, 3 draws. 62 wins.
Put together in one year. Painted to a gaming (6-7 out of 10) standard. STANK and characters painted to "good" standard (8-9/10 of our gaming group standard.)


~Hal

b_blair00
27-05-2005, 19:42
What is everyone's opinion on using the cheapest steam tank, Sigmar's Hammer Steam Tank, and basically using it as a turn one or two battering ram into your opponents ranks.

With the extra distance you go, the more strength it hits, the more damage. The only thing you have to worry about is building up too much steam.

Kjell
27-05-2005, 20:21
I'd like to sneak in another question about characters, namely: What lore of magic do you favour? I can see Heavens being a big favourite but what about the others? Fire, Light, Death... Basically, how does the other lores fit into a typical Empire army? What about over 2000 points, when you can field a Wizard Lord without sacrificing Ld? What about in 500 point games? As you can see, I'd appreciate some in-debt info/opinions on this if for no other reason than that I'm curious. ;)

Cheesejoff
27-05-2005, 20:48
I'd like to sneak in another question about characters, namely: What lore of magic do you favour? I can see Heavens being a big favourite but what about the others? Fire, Light, Death... Basically, how does the other lores fit into a typical Empire army? What about over 2000 points, when you can field a Wizard Lord without sacrificing Ld? What about in 500 point games? As you can see, I'd appreciate some in-debt info/opinions on this if for no other reason than that I'm curious. ;)

Well heavens is a favourite for obvious reasons. But I like gold for wizard sniping. Combine the first spell with Hochland LR and a cannon and your opponent's wizards aren't safe in a unit or out of it. They have to stay out of LOS which restricts their spells.

And the steamtank is :cheese: especially as a torpedo.

Sariel
27-05-2005, 21:19
What is everyone's opinion on using the cheapest steam tank, Sigmar's Hammer Steam Tank, and basically using it as a turn one or two battering ram into your opponents ranks.


It works very well, thank you. Personally, I'd take the Steam Gun too if I have the points - works well with the whole battering-ram role, and it does'nt cost too many points (OR hull points, for that matter).

That being said, there are some armies that look at a Steam Tank and go... mmm... free VP. The thing is, it can take multiple hull points from a single hit, which means that anything with multiple high-strength attacks can seriously hurt it.

The worst things you could run into? Single fighty characters on foot with high strength and lots of attacks.

A Wolf Form Thrall with a GW is especially nasty, since the Thrall is really cheap and does'nt have to worry about failing terror, and Nike Scar Vets/Oldbloods are almost as bad if not worse. Ogre Tyrants are nasty, but they're a lot easier to avoid since they have charge arcs.




I'd like to sneak in another question about characters, namely: What lore of magic do you favour? I can see Heavens being a big favourite but what about the others? Fire, Light, Death... Basically, how does the other lores fit into a typical Empire army? What about over 2000 points, when you can field a Wizard Lord without sacrificing Ld? What about in 500 point games? As you can see, I'd appreciate some in-debt info/opinions on this if for no other reason than that I'm curious. ;)

Light can be very useful if a little risky - nothing like getting Guardian Light when you're fighting undead.

Heavens and Life are amazing. Life is pretty darn good if only because of the fact that (unlike Heavens!), it has an unlimited range (ie within 12" of a terrain feature anywhere on the table), 3 of its 6 spells are offensive direct-damage spells that target units that can be a pain for Empire players (ie skirmishers and long mages in woods, enemy artillery on hills), and Howler Wind and Mistress of Marsh are great for messing up cavalry charges at your infantry blocks.

Especially fun is running a Life Wizard with Howler Wind with some pistoliers against an army with little/no magic. Run the unit up to march-block. Pistoliers throw out a few shots, and watch as your opponent's heavy cavalry crawls along at a mere 3 1/2" a turn..............

Metal isn't too bad either, especially if you're going magic-lite. The low-level spells are relatively easy to cast and really quite effective, and while it might not do very much direct damage, its effects are especially fun considering the average quality of Empire soldiery. Nothing like hitting a unit of Bret Knights with Bane of Forged Steel, for instance. :D

Angerland
30-05-2005, 02:54
at my group games we do not use much in the way of terrain, therfore the choices I make for Wizards are Light and Heavens. For detachments I always take Handgunners and Free Company. if your going to shoot, you might as well be sure and kill what your shooting, and if they run from return fire...no worries as they are detachments. FC as detachments rock a 5 man fron it 10 attacks...more dice is more chances to hit and that means more chances to woundd...which all Str 3 models need.

Templar_Victorious
30-05-2005, 03:09
Hey People, I am playing Empire (wonder why I went into the thread?) been into that army a while now, and I am wondering what advise you have against a 2000pts Chaos army, prolly very pointswise upgraded characters, prolly Slaaneesh or Nurgle (GD)... Khorne on third place and Tzeentch (or how it is spelled) as the choise of Mark... The thing is , I am convinced it will be a deamon army. Which kind of deplyment tactic would eb best against a Deamon army of Chaos?

Templar_Victorious
30-05-2005, 03:10
The reasonf or asking is, that I've never met a large Chaos army since the latest edition came... We've only been playing 1000-1350 pts sofar.

Cheesejoff
30-05-2005, 16:54
Hey People, I am playing Empire (wonder why I went into the thread?) been into that army a while now, and I am wondering what advise you have against a 2000pts Chaos army, prolly very pointswise upgraded characters, prolly Slaaneesh or Nurgle (GD)... Khorne on third place and Tzeentch (or how it is spelled) as the choise of Mark... The thing is , I am convinced it will be a deamon army. Which kind of deplyment tactic would eb best against a Deamon army of Chaos?

Well if it's Nurgle you're after it's a pretty easy job - HANDGUNS! They chew up plaguebearers like anything. Chariots are no problem against cannons, although the plague rider thingies are tough. Watch out for the Daemon princes tho. They make a mess of your shooting.

- Take a large amount of shooting units
- Make sure your units are large, you don't want to break due to fear
- Leadership! Keep your general preferable near most of your troops
- Watch out for his flying characters

Slaanesh are a different story. Ridiculously fast, they will be in among your probably 2nd or 3rd turn. So don't stock up on shooting. if your opponent is smart he will take out your detachments with two charges at once, one against the detachment, one against the parent. Basically your problem is their speed.

- Use pistoliers, huntsmen, pegasus characters, etc, to slow them down
- Don't rely on your shooting but don't neglect it
- Keep knights ready to counter attack.

Tyra_Nid
01-06-2005, 01:43
As a new Empire player, im wondering whether its feasible to equip a Halberd unit with shields?

Same price as Swordsmen but with less WS and I- however more flexible as there is the option for +1 S if survivability isnt required.

Cheesejoff
01-06-2005, 11:39
As a new Empire player, im wondering whether its feasible to equip a Halberd unit with shields?

Same price as Swordsmen but with less WS and I- however more flexible as there is the option for +1 S if survivability isnt required.

It's a bit of a mixed trade off really. if you are going up against armies like Chaos who's warrior will beat your WS and I anyway, then it's useful. However, you lose your +1S basically meaning you won't be killing any warriors and also, chaos do not have much shooting so the +1 vs shooting isn't much help.

Against shooty armies, HE especially, it can help cut the casualties, however, if you use the shields in combat, you would be better off taking swordsmen who can match their WS.

Basically it's up to you, really.

Angelripper
01-06-2005, 21:47
Against Chaos I would go shooty. Handgunners, A cannon or two, maybee a Hellblaster.
So far I personally think the Steam Tank is greatly overrated. Used it twice and both times a single Character trashed it in just two turns. And everyone yells CHEESE when they see a Tank.
Well I don't think it fits into a Fantasy Army anyway.

As I Prefer an Infantryamry my Lords choise is the Electors Count, backed up by an BSB and some Captains.
Don't underestimate the human Wizards. The lore of fire rocks. But I think if magic than all or nothing. There are so many armies that can take over the magic phase (ie VC, DE, HE, Lizzy) if you just take one or two wizards. In that case they are just lost points.
Moving on to troops, as stated before, I prefer Infantry. Leave the Knights to the Brets. Also Imperial Tin-Cans look awfull and are quite Cheesy. 1+ save...nah! Wheres the fun?
Detachments are a godsgift for every imperial general
I got a nasty idea ones: two units of 40 Swordsmann accompanied by two detatchments of 20 Militias each. Really high in points but the look on my opponents Face was great and they really won the Game.
Normaly I use Swordmann with Milita and a couple of Archers and Hunters. Greatswords for the punch and Flagellants for the fun and stalling the enemies advance.

Cheesejoff
05-06-2005, 18:26
So what do you guys think about unit/detachment sizes? I go for 24 Infantry, 8 Detachments, although occasionally 6 handgunners.

Lord Baldrick
07-06-2005, 07:19
My infantry blocks are usually 25 strong, with a detachment of 10. I think 8 is the bare minimum for combat detachments, but I'll always try to take 10 if I can spare some points.

(BTW, I think I still have much of the old 'Imperial Operative Procedures'-thread saved on my home pc, I'll have a look when I get home later, if anyone's interested)

Sariel
07-06-2005, 11:47
Infantry regiments: 24-25 models.

Close combat (ie countercharging Free Company detachments): 8-12
Missile detachments (handgunners/xbows): 10
Bait detachment (missile screens, charge deflectors): 6-8


Missile regiments: 10 models
2 detachments of MORE missile troops.

Usually 10 handgunners with 2 detachments of 5 Crossbowmen.

Tyra_Nid
07-06-2005, 12:05
How thin do you spead your missle detachments? 2x5?

And how to xbows chalk up as compared to Handgunners? Move and fire is a big incentive... But so is S4 AP.


Also, ive started with a Regiment box, comprimising 5 Halberds and the remainder Swordsmen (wanted some variation in my first minis). Ill be using the Champion model as a Captain till I get a proper commander, and have done up a swordsman in a suitably dramatic pose to act as the Champion until then.
This leaves me with a 5 Halberd detachment, 13 Swordsmen Parent and a Captain. Next box ill probably be getting is a set of Militia, then another regiment box to add another 5 Halberds and beef up the swordsmen. How would you recommend I do the Militia box? Im thinking half archers and half xbows. Archers are a second core unit (skirmishing) and xbows as a second detachment for the Swordsmen. Maybe FC, since 2 attacks is quite appealing, but Id like some missle support for the Parent unit.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-06-2005, 13:09
Well, I wrote an article on Empire tactics a while ago on dysartes, worth a look:
http://www.dysartes.com/tactics/whfb/tacticaempire.php
On the last page I outline my anti-ambusher strategy.

Tyra_Nid
07-06-2005, 23:55
Well, I wrote an article on Empire tactics a while ago on dysartes, worth a look:
http://www.dysartes.com/tactics/whfb/tacticaempire.php
On the last page I outline my anti-ambusher strategy.

That article is really quite good!

Respect: +1

shutupSHUTUP!!!
09-06-2005, 10:29
er yay :p

Cheesejoff
10-06-2005, 19:02
The Gilded Armour

This is definitely one to avoid, for 50 points you are left wondering what the designer was smoking when he priced it

:p

The Gilded Armour is one of the worst armour's in the game.

Punk_in_Drublic
13-06-2005, 18:45
Ok, I noticed this abit late, but anyway.

On characters:
For the moment I field a set 2000 pts army. I like to have a bit of everything, so my character choices reflects just that. An Elector count leads my force, armed only with a GW and the armour of met iron, covering in a swordsman regiment with the griffin banner. THat usually does the trick, unless the opponents character of doom has reached you regiment. In that case you're screwed anyway.
My heroes are a BSB (Never leave home without him) with a sword of might or striking. He hangs out with the GS regiment.
My two last choices are 2 lv 2 wizards (or, when tweaking, one lvl1 and one lvl2). The usually sport one scroll each, and I go with lore of heavens (duh) and teh lore of shadows. If you can just mow down that fleeing regiment with the steed of shadows ONCE in every third game, he's totally worth it. I find the lore of shadows to be the most useful lore. If you're lucky, he can move regiments as well as himself. And he's king at blocking march moves and set up counter charge traps.

Later,

-Punk

thor
15-06-2005, 16:14
what does it mean that when shooting at skirmishers with helblaster it doesnt need to hit?

thor
15-06-2005, 16:26
i like ec as it is either cheap and useful or then you can take a good ec for example a special character who can stand against a lord or monster. grandmaster is a bit expensive and not so useful in most cases.

Tyra_Nid
16-06-2005, 00:58
What would be a good size for a Huntsmen unit? 5 would keep them cheap and expendable, but not too much chance for damage. By jumping up to 9, they would require 3 casualties instead of 2 for a break test which would assist in survivability and more chance to do damage, however they would take up more space and be harder to maneuvere. Suggestions?

Sariel
16-06-2005, 01:59
What would be a good size for a Huntsmen unit? ............. By jumping up to 9, they would require 3 casualties instead of 2 for a break test which would assist in survivability and more chance to do damage, however they would take up more space and be harder to maneuvere. Suggestions?

9 - BAD. It isn't so much a matter of mobility rather than the amount of space a unit of 9 will take up. Huntsmen are scouts, and finding a place for 9 models to hide can be tricky, assuming 5-6 pieces of terrain on a 4'x6' table.

I like fielding them in units of 6 (7 if I have points left over). Small enough to hide, big enough to still get flank bonuses if they should choose to charge small support units of cavalry/fast cavalry in the flank, and also big enough to take on similarly-sized units of enemy skirmishers.

Punk_in_Drublic
16-06-2005, 12:13
what does it mean that when shooting at skirmishers with helblaster it doesnt need to hit?

It means you do not roll to hit with a helblaster. You just nominate your targets if the crewmen can see them. Skirmishers are usually difficult to hit because of negative modifiers and the average BS of your missile troops. With the helblaster you hit automaticly, but the number of shots varies (Since you use the artillery dice to determine how many shots are fired) and there is always the risk of it blowing up.

@Tyra_nid: I use a squad of 5, but I ususally use them to draw out goblin fanatics and preventing march moves, popping off the occational shots at frre roaming single characters. To be on the safe side, I might be persuaded to up them to 6 or 7, but in reality I seldom see the need. They're usually left alone to do their job or they get annihilated.

Later,

-Punk

Inquisitor Mikarovic
16-06-2005, 12:33
And how to xbows chalk up as compared to Handgunners? Move and fire is a big incentive... But so is S4 AP.Crossbows can't move and fire either, remember. Their upside, though, is their range of 30". If they can find a hill (Boooring! :p) behind the main line, they can be out of harm's way and still fire in the first turn. Handgunners, even with the first volley bonus range, would still have to be a fair bit forward to get those all important first casualties in, because you don't want to be relying on a dice roll of a 6.

I personally rate the Handgunners. Armour piercing is always a valuable bonus, and their Marksman can take funky weapons! I prefer Von Meinkopt's Whirling Cavalcade of Death, and incidently, refuse to use it's other name.

Besides, guns are the future. Stringed weapons are for elves and backward inbreeds. :p

As for setup I go for a big unit of 16, and always take full command. The standard is a pretty cheap 100 Victory Points to the enemy, but they're State Troops, they're supposed to fly the colours. And when they survive the game with their standard in tact it's a minor victory anyways. :D

Besides, if you put such a unit on a hill (Boooring! :p), they can even stand up to a charge.

... Not very many charges, but some charges.

Knight Panther
09-07-2005, 19:13
How did this thread end up way at the bottem?

Anyway, what generally works against dwarves?

Cheesejoff
09-07-2005, 20:50
How did this thread end up way at the bottem?

Heh. No idea.


Anyway, what generally works against dwarves?

Cannons! Great cannons are...um....great for killing dwarf cannons. Also handguns are not to be sniffed at, with their cheap point cost they can give thunderers a run for their money. Mortars are not bad against warriors, although maybe not worth their points.

Against a defensive dwarf army, use your own firepower to soften him up, then engage him on the flanks. You really need Knights or detachments against dwarfs, a head on charge is absolutely not going to work.

Magic-wise you will probably not beat them unless you max out, so it's really all-or-nothing against them.

Knight Panther
09-07-2005, 21:41
Heh. No idea.



Cannons! Great cannons are...um....great for killing dwarf cannons. Also handguns are not to be sniffed at, with their cheap point cost they can give thunderers a run for their money. Mortars are not bad against warriors, although maybe not worth their points.

Against a defensive dwarf army, use your own firepower to soften him up, then engage him on the flanks. You really need Knights or detachments against dwarfs, a head on charge is absolutely not going to work.

Magic-wise you will probably not beat them unless you max out, so it's really all-or-nothing against them.

Perhaps I should have gone all or nothing in magic last game... pretty much the only thing I didn't do in your list... of course my luck with my warmachines and leadership tests was absolutely terrible... I've kicked dwarf ass before but this time I got mine kicked lol

Anyway TY...

Nukem
12-07-2005, 08:42
Besides, guns are the future. Stringed weapons are for elves and backward inbreeds. :p

Hahahahahaha

I'm shocked that pistoliers have hardly been mentioned. What do people thinkg about them? What do you arm you marksmen with?

And what about the empire slayers? I really love using flagellants, not just for the whole crazy dude persona, but their ability to hang around for a fight dish out some pain. I love the toughness of 4 and 2 attacks with flails.. yeah WS2 but with that many attacks you should do some damage. And if they recieve a charge they can stick around long enough for you to get a counter charge off with your other foot troops or even knights.

Tell me what you think about these two units. :D

Colin

peteratwar
12-07-2005, 10:37
Pistoliers I love, their fusillade is great & the champ has the repeater pistol. Sometimes fun to put a WP with them Hate can be useful!! Sadly no musician!

Flaggies I also love but remember the +2 to S is only on 1st round of combat. However the fact that they have to be killed to the last one makes them invaluable especially as flank guards, supported by a volleygun!!

Nukem
12-07-2005, 15:13
Yea I know its only on the first turn :( but if some of the dudes survive you can dish out some hurt. Did I mention the toughness of 4... :P

Yea I wish you could put a musician with the pistoliers, but since their fastcav they auto rally if they choose to flee :D

Ozorik
12-07-2005, 15:21
Ah I remember the days when they were S4 as well and IIRC 10 PPM. I dont really like the thought of them sulling my state troops though so I dont intend to use them these days.

Pistoliers are definately handy, fragile but can do horrible, horrible things to even big blocks of enemy infantry if you get a flank or rear charge.

Wulf
13-07-2005, 13:37
Hahahahahaha

I'm shocked that pistoliers have hardly been mentioned. What do people thinkg about them? What do you arm you marksmen with?

Colin

In my 2000 pts tournament army I use two units pistoliers of 6 each incl Marksman w repeating pistol. How they are used depend alot on the composition of the rest of your army. My army army also includes four six man knight units and an infantryunit w detachments, some crossbowmen and artillery.

For me pistoliers are used in a classic fast cav role. Speeding down the flanks. Trying to stay out of harms way and tries to get behind the enemy battle line. Sure they are vulnerable to enemy fire and their ability to take panic tests and rally are downright pathetic - oh what I would give for the option to give one of them a drum. I guess they aren't that found of music... :)

They work very well as they demand attention from the enemy as the rest of my army moves into possition. And if the opponent fail to take care of them properly they tend to make him pay dearly. As we all know they do pack a real punch. I quite often don't charge in though but keeps them moving and shooting, and forces the enemy to try to follow my movements, thereby sooner or latter exposing a flank or rear for a glorious charge.

I've found that the Empire army works well in a combined arms type of mode. My army have a lot of cavalry but the ten man crossbow unit, my three artillery pieces (one each), pegasus rider and block of infantry are all esetial for my battle plan and success.

It would be interesteing to hear about your opinions of using Empire cavalry. Unit sizes, back up, etc?

/Wulf

Ozorik
13-07-2005, 16:24
Im looking for suggestions as to where I should place my BSB. Im thinking about placing him to the rear of my infantry blocks as I dont want him to be in the front rank of a combat unit. My army is lead by an elector count so he doesnt carry a magic banner. How safe will he be at the back or should I put him in a unit anyway?

Additionally I have a unit of 25 swordsmen and 25 spearmen. My swordsmen have the griffon standard. Where should I place my elector count?

peteratwar
14-07-2005, 09:31
Pistoliers do not auto-rally.

Zeb
14-07-2005, 09:36
Nukem, peterawar is right. The auto rally thing was mentioned in an apendix. And had nothing that was mentioned in the "Main Rule book" so that was later cancelled (IIRC it was in one of the chronacles 02/03).

Wulf
14-07-2005, 10:28
Im looking for suggestions as to where I should place my BSB. Im thinking about placing him to the rear of my infantry blocks as I dont want him to be in the front rank of a combat unit. My army is lead by an elector count so he doesnt carry a magic banner. How safe will he be at the back or should I put him in a unit anyway?

Additionally I have a unit of 25 swordsmen and 25 spearmen. My swordsmen have the griffon standard. Where should I place my elector count?

Personaly I don't use a BSB. It is alot of VP:s to give away and as my army is mostly on horse they tend to be to spread out over the table to benefit from a BSB.

Leaving a BSB out of the units are a very hazardous venture. A cunning opponent soon fins ways of dealing with ICs walking about behind the battle line. Bouncing cannon balls comes into mind... ;)

Your EC should IMO stay with your main combat unit i e the swordsmen w griffon std. You need him to stick around so putting him with your strongest unit makes sense. When it comes to your BSB it is a matter of preference. An all eggs in one (strong) basket approach is to put your BSB there aswell - but then you better enlarge the unit to atleast 30 swordsmen to ensure maximum rank and possibly outnumbering aswell even after some bombardment. I would however put the BSB in another block of infantry to keep a specific unit from being the obvious target for all enemy efforts. Just make sure to have a champion in the unit ready to accept challenges from that Chaos Lord of Khorne...

/Wulf

Cheesejoff
13-08-2005, 19:29
Everyone outs the ol' Griffon Standard with their swordsmen...but why? Everyone KNOWS you have it there, so why not change now and again? Put it with the spears or GS, to surprise your opponent. Or, if you want to be surpirsing but stupid, with your Knights. :p

Lafeel Abriel
13-08-2005, 22:53
Here's a nice little magical item that is one of my all time favorites: the silver horn. It is quite usefull for those moments when your units did not rally in the phase they normally can, this can give you a second chance to, automatically, as long as your opponent doesn't dispel it (use it dead last in the magic phase, when possible)

Cheesejoff
15-08-2005, 20:06
The silver horn is pretty nice, although I've only used it once or twice. My favourite magic item is probably Van Horstmanns Speculum, it's a genius for levelling off fights with your Elector (Come on, everyone KNOWS he's going be weaker than your opponents lord) so why not even up the fight?

Lafeel Abriel
15-08-2005, 21:00
Yeah, true. Mine has a one, as well as sword of power, and that talisman that gives you a 5+ ward save. I've got a rematch with a blood thirster planned (last one was in a tourney, and I'm hoping we will meet again, eventually), and this time I'm going to have the last laugh..(last time the count was my only remaining hero, and he'd killed most of my unit champs, too)

Mind you we both had a nice laugh in it, first when I killed his demon prince with a lucky thunderbolt, and also when I took a pot shot at the blood thirster with huntsmen (no softer target in l.o.s.), twice, and both times knocked off a wound. Nah..I'm not going for revenge, just want to see the look on his face, no more.

Cheesejoff
16-08-2005, 16:11
Heheh. I know an amazing anti-character Elector Count.

Elector Count, Barded Mount, Sword of fate, Enchanted shield, Van Horstmann's, Talisman of Protection.

0+ save, 6+ ward, uses opponents S,T,I,A, always wounds on 2's, ignores saves, does d3 wounds.....this guy can BEAST almost any character or daemon in a one-on-one duel.

Cheesejoff
17-08-2005, 14:16
Since we seem to have covered characters, I think we should move onto Core units now.

What do you take for your core infantry? (If any!) For preference I take a unit each of swordsmen and spearmen, with detachments of free company, halberds, and handgunners. The handgunners help thin out the enemy ranks (lets face it, Empire core need all the help they can get!) And the CC detachments just flank the enemy.

I usually only take one unit of Knights, maybe 5 with a musician at the least, and 8 with full command at most. What do you think about Inner Circle? I've never used it myself, but I hear it's quite useful.

Blackrabbit33
19-08-2005, 18:42
I'd like to sneak in another question about characters, namely: What lore of magic do you favour? I can see Heavens being a big favourite but what about the others? Fire, Light, Death... Basically, how does the other lores fit into a typical Empire army? What about over 2000 points, when you can field a Wizard Lord without sacrificing Ld? What about in 500 point games? As you can see, I'd appreciate some in-debt info/opinions on this if for no other reason than that I'm curious. ;)

Well i'm a big fan of the lore of fire. but for tactical reasons i will have 1 lore of heaven but i will always have more fire than heavens

Blackrabbit33
19-08-2005, 18:45
Since we seem to have covered characters, I think we should move onto Core units now.

What do you take for your core infantry? (If any!) For preference I take a unit each of swordsmen and spearmen, with detachments of free company, halberds, and handgunners. The handgunners help thin out the enemy ranks (lets face it, Empire core need all the help they can get!) And the CC detachments just flank the enemy.

I usually only take one unit of Knights, maybe 5 with a musician at the least, and 8 with full command at most. What do you think about Inner Circle? I've never used it myself, but I hear it's quite useful.


well my core is swordsmen of which i have 30 of.

what are people opinions of flagellents i love the little guys for a painting reason alone i love doing a whole unit diffenrent from the uniformed troops

Cheesejoff
20-08-2005, 18:47
I've not used Flagellants so I couldn't really comment. The models look pretty good though. (And I hear they are excellent at protecting flanks on the battlefield)

Grand Warlord
11-09-2005, 12:31
I have used them on a few occasions and they are great at holding a flank since they are crazed. I would try to hold them against ... say ... chaos knights but against another block of infantry they will hold for some time, T4 is nice too lol

Tormentor of Slaanesh
11-09-2005, 13:17
they'd be good for holding but against most things they'd eventually loose. plus they're expesive.

sparks
12-09-2005, 00:08
does anyone else here use a lore of shadow wizard? i always take fire and shadow wizards. lore of fire gives you the odd offensive spell, whereas lore of shadow seems to aid the empire army no matter which spells you get(in most circumstances). getting shades of death against undead is priceless!

Grand Warlord
12-09-2005, 22:15
From time to time I switch from the lore of Fire, Life, and shadow and yes that is quite nasty lol

gortexgunnerson
14-09-2005, 22:37
Well I just had my first tournment with my Empire, using a Wizard Lord, Engineer, priest and Lv 2 as characters and then a mix of missile troops, a big unit of great swords with 2 detachments of swordmena and a load of gin guns including a mortor crewed by engineer.

Won 4 out of 5 games and came 2nd so think they did pretty well but was abit too much gunline tactic for my likes so am now working on revising the list to get abit more punch. But I still really rate engineers and wizard Lords.

IkuTurso
15-09-2005, 13:27
whoa! sword of fate is amazing but one question, how do you have to nominate the enemy character? do you have to tell your opponent that "my sword of fates target is your lord" and then explain what that sword does? or?

Kohhna
15-09-2005, 22:34
Heheh. I know an amazing anti-character Elector Count.

Elector Count, Barded Mount, Sword of fate, Enchanted shield, Van Horstmann's, Talisman of Protection.

0+ save, 6+ ward, uses opponents S,T,I,A, always wounds on 2's, ignores saves, does d3 wounds.....this guy can BEAST almost any character or daemon in a one-on-one duel.
If that is less than 200 points (or can be made less than 200) and you havent put in for it yet, you should try putting that character up for the WFB test Arena Of Death (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10374&page=1&pp=10)

He'd seriously kill my guy, assuming he's legal for AOD.

Brother Edwin
16-09-2005, 19:07
I use a huge gunline, its much better than core infantry. Just use lots of handgunners with knights, and a load of artillery. Oh, and a wizard lord with 3 lv2 wizards, with some huntsmen to march block.


And a steamtank of course. I trust you take hexstaff and rod of power for 13-18 powerdice?

Ozorik
19-09-2005, 12:20
Pfff.

The best core units in the army are knights closely followed by large swordsmen units.

As I understand the sword of fate description you simply have to nominte an enemy character before the battle starts so simply writing down your target or telling an impartial 3rd party should be enough.

Grand Warlord
21-09-2005, 02:38
After recently revamping my list from my horrible defeat at the 2005 Chicago GT I have change it to a more shootier aspect, althought that wasn't my original Intention. I have no knights or pistoliers as I cant really justify them in my Witch Hunter Theme .. and after i buy everything why take a single unit? I have mostly Swordsmen with Halberdier/Handgunner Detachments with some cannons and a Goblin Hewer... and a small unit of Flagellants.

I must say having mages again is fun.

Keller
24-09-2005, 14:29
whoa! sword of fate is amazing but one question, how do you have to nominate the enemy character? do you have to tell your opponent that "my sword of fates target is your lord" and then explain what that sword does? or?

If you play an open list game, thats the best thing to do to avoid arguements. But since the sword is so powerful against that one model, its rather nice to have it as a surprise so you can actually get to them, as your opponent will not want to let that happen.

Personally, I like to not let them know who it is against. You can tell them that you have it, what it does, just don't tell them who it is against. Just write the name of your target model on your list at the start of the game. When you get into combat, reveal your list so they can see that is indeed who you selected at the start.

Nazguire
25-09-2005, 07:07
I use a huge gunline, its much better than core infantry. Just use lots of handgunners with knights, and a load of artillery. Oh, and a wizard lord with 3 lv2 wizards, with some huntsmen to march block.


But it's so easy to defeat. Especially against High Elves or perhaps Dark Elves. +1 to Dispel, lots of dispel scrolls, cavalry, flying monsters and scouts will make this quite easy to defeat and destroy.

Frankly
25-09-2005, 14:22
But it's so easy to defeat. Especially against High Elves or perhaps Dark Elves. +1 to Dispel, lots of dispel scrolls, cavalry, flying monsters and scouts will make this quite easy to defeat and destroy.


Hmmm, i dont want to, but i have to disagree. For the average army out there is very difficult to deal with.

IMO it's also a completely boring, crappy armylist that is a horrible to play against. It's one of those lists that ruins the enjoyment of wargaming, because its one person playing the game and all he's doing is rolling a bucket full of dice and hoping for high numbers.

A friend of mine, every now and then will brings out his gunline of doom for a bit of a laugh, although he's never brought it out and actually considered its a serious armylist ... since he's not a powergamer.

The only "take on allcomer lists" I've seen challenge it are, khorne all cavalry, heavy magic nerco and huge horde gobbo's.

I've seen it go down like a sack of crap many a time to lists that are constructed to beat it.

Nazguire
07-10-2005, 10:06
Anyone ideas on what to do to defeat High Elves? I'm having a bit of trouble, especially with their magic.

Keller
12-10-2005, 13:43
I had posted this in an army review thread a few days ago, but since this is the Imperial Tactica, I figured I'd put it here too.


As any Imperial general will tell you, detachments are key to winning. If you cannot keep your detachments around to support your main blocks, you are going to be swept into combats you can't easily win. Simple men cannot go toe-to-toe with the big nasties of the world.
Keep in mind that while detachments are designed to work with the parent units, they do not have to stay with them. You may send a detachment out on its own to have an independent unit that does not cause panic; a nice way to get disposable small units that won't threaten your army.

Each state infantry unit is allowed to have up to two detachments. The size of the detachment is dependent on the size of the parent unit, but given the need for large main blocks, detachments could easily be made up to 10 or 12 men. Generally 1 combat detachment is enough per parent unit, but having back up units and the added boost of missile troops is something to consider as well.

There are two types of detachments: combat and missile. Combat troops are there to counter or support charge for their parent units, knocking the +3 res the enemy would have for ranks right off the table. Missile units are a little more difficult to use, as their stand and fire can only do so much to help the parent, although they do have their uses.

Combat Detachments:
Melee detachments need to stay near the parent, but trailing behind just a bit. You have to set up so that the enemy must charge the parent, or any competent enemy will take out the detachments first, leaving you high and dry. A good way to protect your units is to leave them about 1" behind the front of the parent unit, while staying as close to the unit as possible. Learning to keep your detachments in tact can be tricky, but its usually not too hard once you get used to thinking about them.
As for the size of a detachment, that is rather dependent on what you want to do with them. You need to make sure you have atleast 5 men when you counter charge, or they cannot do their job of negating ranks. Many people advocate using 8 men in a 4x2 formation, as it allows you to soak up 3 casualties from missile fire, while still staying cheap. I prefer larger detachments of 12 men in 6x2 or 4x3 formation. The larger size is more expensive, but it allows the unit to soak up a lot of fire and still remain effective and have 6 men able to attack against ranked units or have a 2 rank bonus if the detachment fights w/o its parent (depending on the formation).

Free Company Fighters: These guys are widely excepted as the best choice for a detachment. They are the cheapest option (5 points/model), have 2 attacks each, and fit the fluff perfectly. However they are the only melee detachment to not come with any armor. Their cheap cost makes them the best melee unit to screen the parent from enemy fire, although its best used as a desperation tactic. If you want a missile screen, a missile unit can be more effective at a slightly higher cost. I generally recomend them for parent units that have a strong attack (halberdiers and greatswords), so that you get a mix of strength and plenty of attacks. However, a unit of spearmen with Free Com detachment can make for a bucketload of dice, so it is worth considering them as well.

Halberdiers: These are one of my favorite detachments to take. They are still reasonably cheap at 6 points/model, and the increased strength can be a big help against tougher armies. I generally recomend these for fighting along spearmen, and possibly swordsmen. Spearmen get a lot of attacks, but might have trouble getting wounds against high toughness or heavy army, where the S4 of the halberds has a little easier time. I would avoid taking them on Greatsword or Halberd units, unless you are fighting an army where you need to have high strength (such as Ogres, Minotaurs, lots of monsters, etc).

Spearmen: The worst detachment option. Spears only work when stationary, and the whole point of a detachment is to charge. The added rank attack could be helpful if you don't break the enemy unit, but since the goal is to do that, these guys are a bad choice. Even if you plan on having the spearmen fight on their own, being a small unit will make them lose their ranked attack rather quickly and nulify the spears. Only take these if you want to live up to a theme or just really like spearmen.

Swordsmen: Often considered the best by some, good by most others, I don't care for them. While they get the best equipment and stats, they are just too pricey for my tastes. Swordsmen are better at reducing wounds taken, not wounds delt. Not taking wounds means you won't give the enemy as much combat res, as well as having your detachment around longer to negate ranks. Swordsmen are probably your most durible unit, especially if you want to send them out from the parent, but I prefer more offensive units to deal wounds, rather than avoid taking them. Swordsmen will work well with any parent unit, especially other Swordsmen or Greatswordsmen.


Missile Detachments:
Missile detachments are quite handy, even if they do not look so at first glance. The special rule missile units get as detachments is that they may stand and fire at units charging the parent. While this is a bit handy, it is usually not very prectical unless you are playing defensively and waiting for the enemy to come to you; missile units cannot keep up with the line while still firing. These detachments are better used as screens, or as a way to get small units of men who can fire between gaps in the line, being far more manuverable than large independently bought units.

Archers: Archers are a great detachment, being highly mobile skirmishers. They are the best unit to use as screens for your parent unit, as the skirmishing rule makes them harder to be hit by most ranged attacks. Their mobility allows them walk and fire, allowing you to move your line slowly and still use your bows. Their ability to move in any direction allows them to quickly get out of the way when you are ready to commit your fighting block to the enemy, and of course stand and fire against the enemy when they do charge. These abilities make the archer the best all around missile detachment, if you want to keep near an advancing line of troops.

Crossbowmen & Handgunners: I am going to group these together, simply because they are so similar. These units provide a nice punch with S4 missiles, at the cost of being move OR fire. You can only use these in support of the paren unit in one of two ways: (1)play denfenivly, parking your line while the detachments (and other units) fire on the enemy as they approach, standing and shooting when the parent or they themeselves are charged. (2) Alternate between shooting and marching. You will get half as many shots in, but be able to stand and fire when charges are made. The better way to use these detachments is to buy small 5-8 man units to be used away from the parent. Make use of the smaller size to find gaps between your main units to fire through. Large units of missile troops can find trouble finding space to deploy, espeically when there are no hills; detachments allow you to have missile troops who suffer less of a problem form this, although can't dish out as much damage. As for guns or crossbows, its largely personal preference. Both hit at S4, but the bows trade the extra -1AS for an extra 6" range. Both have their place, so its really up to you as to what you want.

*Keep in mind that you don't have to sit in your deployment zone to play defensively. You can move your line forward for a turn or two before setting up to await the enemy charges. You will also want to have some other units, such as cavalry, warmachines, etc. that you can use in the mean time to get into position and blast the enemy.

Detachments are a great asset to the Empire. Making good use of them will make things much easier for you, but they are not always easy to use. You have a lot of options in selecting them, and even more once you hit the table. Good opponents will know the value of detachments and try to take them out, good Empire generals will know how to protect them as best they can, and know when to sacrifice them.

Cheesejoff
07-11-2005, 18:48
Spearmen: The worst detachment option

Thank God. I don't know why people take spears, they're just n00by n00bs. Listen to Keller's wise advice, and you will go far.

blue midgets of doom
08-11-2005, 23:53
how do you all feel about the mortar vs. cannon argument, which is better???

Keller
10-11-2005, 02:04
Cannons are typically more dependible, since they can only miss on one axis, where as the mortars have two on which to move. Because of this, cannons are easier to hit with, and are usually a better choice for someone not who is not well practiced in the art of guess weaponry, as the two dice rolls can often roll your shot into something with a short guess. My complaint with this method though is that you cannot get a direct hit as easily, since you have to rely on two dice rolls to make it to, and then through, your target. Overall, easier to hit something, but not always going to maximize your hits. Its generally good to guess about 6" infront of the targeted unit, so that a low "powder charge" roll will still clip the unit somewhat with a bounce, and a high "charge" roll will still land in the unit, killing the back few models with the bounce.

Mortars are trickier, since you have to dead on with your guess, in hopes of getting a "hit" with the shot. Any drift in the shot usually results in a miss, or atleast not hitting many models, but you do have a 1/3 chance of landing right where you wanted it. The only time a drift is helpful is when the opponent has many units packed together, or you just get a stroke of luck and land on another unit out of pure chance. Otherwise, anything but a "hit" usually means no wounds at all.

Engineers can make all the difference in these weapons. Most people will tell you that they are a waste of a hero slot, and its cheaper to just get another gun. Normally, I would agree with them, although I am generally maxed on my special slots, and I have been having great success with my engi's as of late when I chose to use them in a campaign.
Engineers on the cannon are of little use, since they can only reroll the charge dice. This can help you hit the target, maximizing your wounds, but the bounce dice is usually enough to ensure some wounds with a good guess. About the only help the Engi provides the cannon is the ability to reroll and ignore misfires, and to help defend them from attackers.
On the mortar, however, engineers can be of great help. Since they can reroll either dice in firing, they can not only help to avoid misfires, but give you a second chance at getting a hit on your target. There is no downside to rerolling the scatter die, unless you have a friendly unit nearby, as you cannot cause a misfire in doing so. If it scatters in a different direction than originally indicated, you haven't lost anything, since you probably wouldn't have hit anything anyway*. The added defense the engineer provided for the machine is just something to make the deal sweeter.
*Note: you should decide your rerolls before measuring on the table to see if your drift, or guess for that matter, has decidely hit a unit.

As for damage potential, it usually breaks down into two catagories: units and single/tough targets. Cannons are great at hitting anything, with a high chance to kill and wound what they do hit. Their S10 no save makes them ideal for taking out tough monsters, chariots, war machines, and characters who stray into the open. Their direct line of fire makes them great for "sniping", that is, picking off units one at a time with consistant killing hits. However, they cannot do great damage to units, although they can easily shear off a colum of the unit with each shot. Killing 2-5 men from a ranked infantry unit is not always very helpful though.
Mortars, on the other hand, excel at hitting large regiments, but have a harder time dealing with tougher creatures. With the 5" template, a direct hit on a good guess can take out an entire 25 man unit of infantry, with a little luck. Its only a S3 hit, but most things which are ranked up do not have that great of toughness (3 usually, 4 in some armies), but with as many hits as you get, you still can cause a lot of wounds. Since it does use the large template, you can drift a little bit and still hit something when firing at large units, although a direct hit is always your best bet. Surprisingly to some, mortars still can be effective vs tough units too. If you are well practiced with guessing, you can drop the template directly on the target, scoring S6 hits (under the hole), which is usually enough to hurt even the toughest of things out there. You have no room for scattering when you try this method, but with a 1/3 chance of hitting, and the potential to reroll that with an engi, you can kill most anything with the mortar and some luck.

Bottom Line:
Cannons: more forgiving when targeting; can reliably kill any unit on the table; able to do some damage to everything with little trouble; not very effective against skirmishers; fantastic range; excellent at killing enemy warmachines
Mortars: Often "all or nothing" in shooting; require near-perfect guessing to be effective, but can be lost on the scatter; engineer makes them much more efficient, but a second gun will do the same; can devestate large units; good for taking out skirmishers; able to kill/maim tougher units with a center hit.

As you can probably guess from this, I am partial to mortars. I used to be fond of cannons, but the shear power a mortar can bring is something to consider. They are more versitile than most people give them credit for, as the S6 center hit can be used on tough targets. The all or nothing hit method can be frustrating, but one good hit can stop any unit in its tracks.

Muffin Man
10-11-2005, 06:27
If that is less than 200 points (or can be made less than 200) and you havent put in for it yet, you should try putting that character up for the WFB test Arena Of Death (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10374&page=1&pp=10)

He'd seriously kill my guy, assuming he's legal for AOD.

He clocks in at 213 pointa. Just over, but I guess you could just stick him on foot at 192 or swap the enchanted shield + barding for a shield at 200. Both leave him with a 2+ AS instead of the 0+ though.

Course he's not my character to submit.

Ozorik
12-11-2005, 14:56
While kellers detachment post was good it missed one of the most important uses of missile detachments, strategic fleeing.

With careful positioning you can simply prevent enemy infantry units from charging your main infantry blocks by screening them with archers and declaring a flee reaction. If done right this leave the enemy unit within range of both your parent unit and your detachments support charge plus you have no panic checks to worry about.

This tactic dosnt work against cavalry, mobile units and various other things but it can be game winning if you can pull it off.

hiram
13-01-2006, 05:06
right now I am still only playing at 1500. I already have 2 cannon (cause its cool) and a helblaster. What do you guys think of putting a unit of Griffon legion in at the 2k mark?

Keller
13-01-2006, 16:24
right now I am still only playing at 1500. I already have 2 cannon (cause its cool) and a helblaster. What do you guys think of putting a unit of Griffon legion in at the 2k mark?

The Griffon Legion is an interesting unit. They are not as well armored as Imperial knights, but they are faster. They are also S4, and priced the same as Inner Circle Knightly Orders. So it comes down to whether you want the +2AS of the Imperials, or the +1 movement and Glorias Charge of the Kislevites.

Glorias Charge is a double edged sword. On the one hand, you can break a regiment via panic without even getting into combat. There are a lot of units that are immune to panic, and most have high enough Ld that they can generally pass the check. But if the enemy does fail, and flee, it can spread panic throughout the lines, decimating the enemy army from one simple charge.
Of course, the enemy breaking from panic presents problems in and of itself. If the enemy runs, and you cannot catch them, since you are probably not charging from less than 6", your unit now has failed the charge, and shambles forward at normal speed. This can cause them to block LoS for mages/archers/warmachines, not to mention screw up charge lanes for the next turn. Worst of all, you get stuck out in the open, ready to be charged by enemy regiments, since you just walked closer to their lines.

Personally, I suggest going with non-Inner Circle Knightly Orders. They are cheaper, more durable, and Core. I wouldn't suggest taking a Helblaster though, so I could afford the Rare slot for the Griffon Legion. Of course, army theme can weigh in pretty heavily on your selection, especially if your army is based out of a Northern province (if any at all).

Gaius Marius
13-01-2006, 19:18
Would like to make my plug for what I call my "elite" empire army.
265pts - 8 Inner circle Knights with Warbanner & champ
216pts - 8 Knghts with Banner & champ
193pts - 24 Swordsmen with full command
112pts - 16 Swordsmen in 2 8 man detachments
105pts - 10 Handgunners + Champ w long rifle
105pts - 10 Handgunners + Champ w long rifle
150pts - 7 Pistoliers w champ & repeater pistol
100pts - 1 Cannon
75pts - 1 Mortar
125pts - 1 Hellblaster
160pts - 1 Grandmaster (Lord)
106pts - 1 Captain + Barded Horse, Full Plate, GW & Icon of Magnus
145pts - 1 Wizard + 2 dispel Scrolls
140pts - 1 Wizard + Rod of Power

It is elite because every model either has WS 4 or a Black Powder weapon, and because I have found it to be a great "Take on all comers" list. It has proved a very competent tournament army, and though I don't win every game, and not often do I massacre the enemy, I have yet to actually lose a tournament game with this list. (ties, well I have a lot of ties and minor victories)

Any thoughts on the Blended list with a Cavalry focus?

Keller
18-01-2006, 02:53
Would like to make my plug for what I call my "elite" empire army.
265pts - 8 Inner circle Knights with Warbanner & champ
216pts - 8 Knghts with Banner & champ
193pts - 24 Swordsmen with full command
112pts - 16 Swordsmen in 2 8 man detachments
105pts - 10 Handgunners + Champ w long rifle
105pts - 10 Handgunners + Champ w long rifle
150pts - 7 Pistoliers w champ & repeater pistol
100pts - 1 Cannon
75pts - 1 Mortar
125pts - 1 Hellblaster
160pts - 1 Grandmaster (Lord)
106pts - 1 Captain + Barded Horse, Full Plate, GW & Icon of Magnus
145pts - 1 Wizard + 2 dispel Scrolls
140pts - 1 Wizard + Rod of Power

It is elite because every model either has WS 4 or a Black Powder weapon, and because I have found it to be a great "Take on all comers" list. It has proved a very competent tournament army, and though I don't win every game, and not often do I massacre the enemy, I have yet to actually lose a tournament game with this list. (ties, well I have a lot of ties and minor victories)

Any thoughts on the Blended list with a Cavalry focus?

I like it, Gaius, but I think you should change the composition a bit. An army led by a Grand Master would be a bit more traditional, even if the Master is accepting of new technology. I would drop the Helblaster, possibly the cannon as well. You could free up more points by dropping 1 swordsmen detachment, or swapping thme for Free Com Fighters. With the points you could add another block of foot soldiers, or a small unit or two of knights for additional support. You probably don't need 2 scrolls and the Rod of Power either, but I generally prefer to skimp on magic items.

I like the approach, but would limit the tech a bit more than you have.

timtimmy
26-01-2006, 10:25
Has anyone tried the Fire Wizard Lord w/the wizard armor(6+/5+ward) and a barded steed? Just thinking how funny it would be to have a wizard lord that could also fight as it wouldn't be to hard for him to get the flaming sword spell and maybe the van speculum? just curious

Keller
26-01-2006, 13:48
A firemage wouldn't do so well in combat, especially because all but 2 spells require LoS.

In keeping with a mounted theme, I'd use a mounted Wizard with the Armor of Tanaurus, but give him Light magic. You still get a buff spell (Pha's Illumination), though not as wicked as the Flaming Sword, but most of your spells can still be cast. Especially if you have Dazzling Brightness, to reduce the enemy's WS to 1 when you charge into them with you're knights.

I should mention that I intend to run said mage in a unit of knights, not on his own. The lone-horseman is far too vulnerable to shooting and the like.

Galadrin
29-01-2006, 04:27
Since the common belief is Swordsmen are way better than Spearmen, I have to say that this is not really true. Just do the math. A unit of 12 Swords will do something like 1.33 unsaved wounds. Assuming that results in 1 wound to the Spearmen, they will strike back and cause 1.375 wounds (or 1.5 if they weren't wounded by the Swords). Thus, if you are playing defensively and don't plan much to charge, Spearmen are clearly better (and even if you do, that only means you cause half the number of wounds on the charge turn, so 0.75 which should have the same effect).

Sayu
29-01-2006, 05:22
That only works Galadrin when your using Swordsmen against Spearmen. Swordsmen shine against WS4 armies like Elves (all kinds), Dwarves, Lizardmen, Chaos, etc. when it means they take 17% less hits and then have a 4+ save (modified to a 5+ usually) rather than a 5+ (reduced to a 6+).

Mind you, I always use a unit of 30 Spears + Detachments in my army since I prefer the look and feel of the unit to Swords and since I have no desire to spend $80 switching them for a marginal benefit.

Grand Warlord
29-01-2006, 15:14
Kinda off topic:

In fluff what exactly would a Templar Be? I have an Inquisition Themed List and wanted it full of Templar Soldiers ... can anything be a Templar?

Sayu
29-01-2006, 15:48
A Templar (historically) is a Knight of the Temple.

I'd use mounted Reiksguard and Reiksguard on Foot to represent them in-game.

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 19:06
Would it not be more templarish to convert by using HE models and Reiksgaurd models? you will have that priestly-warriorish looks.
I too have a question a little off topic, would it not be cool to have a unit of Archaons on foot. that will scare the crap out of players until they realize that they are mere chaos warriors who dress up like their boss.

Keller
29-01-2006, 19:38
I, too, favor spearmen over swordsmen. I don't exactly know why, I guess I just think they are the more typical soldier than the foppish swordsmen. Spearmen are more likely to cause a wound on the defensive, due to the extra rank, but swordsmen are the better option for strictly defense. Their WS4 means fewer units will hit them on a 3+, their initiative lets them strike before other typical creatures, and of course, their save is a bit better.

Still, I prefer my Halberdiers the most. They aren't that spectacular, but they fit the fluff, and they look great on the table! My usual armies have 1 25 man unit of halberds and one of spearmen, backed by militia, ranged units, and Greatswordsmen as well!

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 19:45
Well, I actually like the swordsmen as detachments and spearmen as the parent unit. I still have not found the use for Halberdiers in my army, if you want power in an empire army stick with knights.

Galadrin
29-01-2006, 20:26
@Sayu: True enough, didn't realise that : /

Well then they look pretty evenly balanced, if you play a good split of opponents. I'm against Chaos/Dwarfs, then Orcs/Skaven, then VC/Tomb Kings, so I never really thought of playing in a heavy WS4 environment.


Halberdiers, of course, make great detachments against Orcs, as the flank charge of 6 will get you 2-3 Combat Resolution (plus any ranks the Orcs lose). I'd field detachments of 10-12 Halberdiers before I'd field the same of Swordsmen against Orcs.

Although they cannot be a detachment, a small unit of Greatswords has the same effect by flank charging enemies you stuck with your infantry (as well as causing that neat flank charge panic test, if the enemy has been stuck there for a turn). I usually field 10-15 Greatswords for a somewhat expensive yet powerful flank charger. In that role alone though, they are like cheap Knights (that is, if you play so defensively, which Empire usually has to do).

On the same idea, how do you all prefer to play with your Empire armies, offensively or defensively? I find that a defensive approach lets you field infantry and support weapons effectively, while allowing you to react to enemy maneuvers better (which is a lot easier than being the protagonist and attacking if you aren't a genius tactician).

Keller
29-01-2006, 22:38
Well, I actually like the swordsmen as detachments and spearmen as the parent unit. I still have not found the use for Halberdiers in my army, if you want power in an empire army stick with knights.
I find swordsmen far too expensive to use as a detachment. Your detachments should be charging, so you want to cause as many casualties as you can. Swordsmen are best at stopping the enemy from gaining CR by making their saves. Units such as Free Coms and Halberdiers earn you CR by making kills. Since they strike first, I would rather kill than rely on the armor saves. Then again, I don't like to use swordsmen as parent units either, not when I have halberdiers and spearmen anyway.




Although they cannot be a detachment, a small unit of Greatswords has the same effect by flank charging enemies you stuck with your infantry (as well as causing that neat flank charge panic test, if the enemy has been stuck there for a turn). I usually field 10-15 Greatswords for a somewhat expensive yet powerful flank charger. In that role alone though, they are like cheap Knights (that is, if you play so defensively, which Empire usually has to do). Interesting idea. I do the same with Grave Guard in my VC army, but I find the 0-1 restriction on Greatswordsmen too troublesome. I would much rather have a parent unit of Greatswordsmen for my Elector to march in.


On the same idea, how do you all prefer to play with your Empire armies, offensively or defensively? I find that a defensive approach lets you field infantry and support weapons effectively, while allowing you to react to enemy maneuvers better (which is a lot easier than being the protagonist and attacking if you aren't a genius tactician).
I tend to play defensively, though harly to the point of just sitting there and waiting for my enemies. I use my handgunners and artillery to direct my enemies toward a favorable fighting area, to where I move my infantry line and wait to recieve charges.
I also like to play more offensively, especially when I play my militia army, as it lacks the power to contain and control the enemy. In these battles, I use crossbowmen to weaken some enemy regiments, along with archers. If the enemy has a lot of ranged weaponry, the archers form a screen instead of shooting, since my units can take out archers and the like without softening them up first. I generally do well enough due to having enough units, and knowing where/when to commit them. Playing without blackpowder, detachments, and loads of magic or armor sure makes for a lot of fun!

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 22:48
true, but swordsmen can survive far better, i mean common a 4+ in close combat + they have good weapon skill.

Grand Warlord
30-01-2006, 02:15
I personally take parent units of Swordsmen and detachments of Halberdiers. More personal preference than anything and the background for my army. Never really liked the spearmen ... i do fairly well without them ... but there are days...

Keller
30-01-2006, 22:10
Never really liked the spearmen ... i do fairly well without them ... but there are days...
Thats exactly my view on Swordsmen for parent units. I have a set of ~28 w/ command painted, but they are always the last unit bought. I really should get around to making a 2nd unit of both Spearmen and Halberdiers, but I find 3 solid regiments (spear, halberd, greatswordmen) enough in most games I play. Their detachments and being backed by shooting support is usually good enough to get by on 3 main regiments in a 2-3K game.

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 22:37
Can Knights be a detachment? I know it is a stupid question but it does not say anything about them in the book as detachment/parent units.

Sayu
30-01-2006, 23:21
No, you can't use Knights as a detachment. The Detachment rules specifically apply to 'Empire foot soldiers' p. 8. You can't use Flagellants as detachments either since the list on p. 8 of the Army Book is absolute and limited.

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 23:49
whoops, silly me. i forgot.

Lardidar
03-02-2006, 20:07
So it seems each week I have a new army idea, but Empire has been an old fave of mine for along time.

I am currently playing a fast moving army and fancy a change to something a little more static.

Hows this sound?

Captain - Great weapon, Hand gun, Full plate, Shield - 74

Captain - Great weapon, Hand gun, Full plate, Shield - 74

Captain - Army Standard, Armor of meteoric iron - 105

Engineer - Hochland long rifle - 75

10x Handgunners - Marksmen - 85

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Bowmen

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Bowmen

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Bowmen

Cannon - 100

Cannon - 100

Mortar - 75

Mortar - 75

Hellblaster - 125

Hellblaster - 125

I realise I have no magic defence and nothing in the way of combat heavy hitters but when I think Empire this is what I see in my head.

Keller
04-02-2006, 00:10
(list)

I like it, as its something new and hardly over-the-top. I would suggest a few changes though. Replace a Captain with an Elector Count. The added LD can help a lot, for few points more. I would also drop the guns from the captains. Equiping them costs more than buying another archer/gunner.

I would also replace the bowmen detachments with crossbows or more gunners. Since you aren't going to move much anyway, you could use the extra range/power of these weapons to greater effect. You also shouldn't need the screens the archers can provide, since you should be doing most of the shooting.

Lastly, a unit of Huntsmen can go a long way. You could replace a cannon for a unit of 10 Huntsmen to slow the enemy, and harrass them as they approach the main lines.

Reckoning06
04-02-2006, 01:04
I agree with dropping the handguns from the captains, but I think keeping the archers as detachments wouldn't hurt him. Although he will be doing most of the shooting, the screens will still be valuable in providing a little cover.

Lardidar
04-02-2006, 08:57
Good point on Captain handguns, never noticed the cost.

I will revise the list a little and come back here with a V2 later.

Cheers

PS - What province(sp?, Eg- Reikland, Nuln etc) do you not see that often, I fancy painting something a bit different.

Sayu
04-02-2006, 17:18
I've never seen a Bogenhafen army.

Keller
04-02-2006, 20:48
I never see armies from any provinces. This is because I am presently the only Empire player in our group, and I don't play tournaments.

But, you never really hear about armies from Bogenhafen (purple & white), Stirland (geen & tan - very dull to look at), Ostermark (brown/purple & yellow - home to Mordhiem!), or Wissenland (grey & white).

I suggest picking a color scheme in which the two main colors contrast. They look so much better. I painted my army green & purple, but it tends to blend together and just look too dark on the table :cries:. If I had it to do over, I would probably do Ostland's black & white, Hochland's green & red, or Ostermark's purple & yellow. Maybe when Empire is re-released I will add new units of a different province, and phase my current ones out. That would depend largely on the new ranges and how much they focus on fluff in the new book though.

Captain Cortez
11-02-2006, 20:20
*Bump*

Does any of you Empire players have a good Strategy against Brits. For some reason I have been having the worst Luck against them.

Keller
11-02-2006, 20:36
There are a few ways to handle them. The biggest problem with the Brets is their massive amount of attacks on their charge, thanks to Lance Formation. If you can stop their charge, they aren't bad at all. Thats not always an option though. Flanking works well for them, something our Detachments excel at.

1). Shoot them to pieces. Handguns make a mess out of knights, even if they do have a wardsave. The S4 of the guns is not enough to bump their save to a 5+, so you will only have to get through a 4+/6+ on them. Considering there are rarely more than 10-12 knights per lance, a good volley or two will really cut their power out from under them. Cannons are nice if you can bounce them through the length of the lance, say 4 knights or so, but they do get a 5+ ward and it is a very lucky shot to hit that many.

2). Stop their charge. Use your own knights and pistoliers, as well as skirmishing archers and huntsmen, to outmanuver the bus-like lances. Keep them turning, or catch them in the side/rear, even if you cannot break them, as you can slow them or have them pursue off course.

3). Take their charge with a solid block of infantry. Set your units so he has to charge the parent unit, then flank with 1 or 2 detachments. You will negate his ranks, claim a flank, and get more attacks where he does not. Can be a bit risky, but you can win out through combat resolution. This works best when you weaken the lance a bit with some shooting.

4). You can always fall back to the standard knight trap, though I don't care for it myself. Set a skirish screen up infront of your infantry, so that just a file is visable to the enemy. If they charge the akirmishers, they flee and the knights are set up to be counter-charged next turn, since they can't redirect to a prior-visable target. If they charge the parent, they can only get 1 knight into conact, and won't have the power to overcome CR. This tactic is incredibly cheap, and abuses an oversight in the rules, so I don't reccommend you use it.

Lardidar
16-02-2006, 14:25
I return with a V2 of my list for you guys to help me with.

Elector count - Hand weapon, Shield, Dawn armour, Holy relic - 168

Captain - Great weapon, Full plate, Shield - 74

Captain - Army Standard, Armor of meteoric iron - 105

Engineer - Hochland long rifle - 75

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Handgunners

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Handgunners

24 Spearmen - Full command, Shields - 329 (with detachments)
12 Halberdiers
8 Handgunners

Cannon - 100

Cannon - 100

Mortar - 75

Mortar - 75

Hellblaster - 125

Hellblaster - 125

Any better than the last one? I dropped the Handguns on the captains, dropped a unit of 10 handgunners, changed the Bowmen to handgunners and added the EC (built not to die rather than to try and kill anything)

Keller
16-02-2006, 15:36
V2 of list

Your EC is far too expensive. You have 85 points in magic items, which hopefully will never come into play. I would drop the Dawn Armor entirely, since you can rely on the ward save alone, and consider swapping the Holy Relic for the White Cloak. My EC's, which lead the infantry line, take the field with FPA, pistol or shield, and sometimes the Cloak, but not always. I've never had much of a problem with him. Its best to keep him cheap and get more troops.

I would drop the captain in exchange for another Engineer. Engineers make mortars incredibly accurate due to their reroll. If you can call your shots well, you can devestate the enemy with 2 of them pounding the lines every turn. I would drop the Hochland, as I have never found much use for it. I like to arm my Engis with repeaters. One carries the Handgun to aid with shooting long range when he doesn't reroll, the second carries the pistol to defend the machines, and the Dragon Bow to help shoot at a distance. A bit expensive for the bow, but I don't mind.

Realize, of course, that you don't have any magic defense, beyond the initial two dispel dice. Not that it can't work; especially when you can blast enemy mages into a panic with the mortars and cannons.

I would also advise the cutting of the Helblasters. Those things never work in my experience, but I have heard good things about them. When mine finally get more than 3 barrels off after 30 games, I might change my mind...

You could trim your detachments to 10 and 6, to make points to add a unit of crossbowmen or handgunners. Free up a few more points, you can add a marksmen with repeater handgun to the gunners for additional support. Just an idea, since you probably don't need 12 man combat detachments if you command the shooting phase as you do, and 8 man gunner detachments could be a bit unwieldy in your lines.

Cheesejoff
19-02-2006, 09:36
I return with a V2 of my list for you guys to help me with...

You've got the basics right but it needs some fine tuning.

I would suggest a warrior priest instead of the non-BSB captain. You've only got 2 dispel dice!

As Keller said the EC is too expensive for what he does. You have to rely on wards and not armour saves, with the amount of S7 attacks out there. If your opponent takes nasty characters, then take Van Horstmann's speculum. It's great for challenging Lords and such.

Remember that your handgun detachments are unlikely to be on a hill, so they can only fire in one rank. Personally I use a big unit of 10 as well as the detachments, but that's up to you.

The Helblaster is all about luck. Keller seems to be unlucky with it, but I've once completely won a game with it (800 Victory points, wiped out the enemy army!) So it's up to you if you want to chance it.


You seem to be lacking cavalry? Some Knights or pistoliers are always helpful.

DeathlessDraich
20-02-2006, 20:40
A Wizard lord and 3 battle wizards, 2 units of chosen knights, big unit of greatswords, handgunners, hellblaster, cannon and a steam tank!
A sit back and blast them army!

Keller
21-02-2006, 03:12
A Wizard lord and 3 battle wizards, 2 units of chosen knights, big unit of greatswords, handgunners, hellblaster, cannon and a steam tank!
A sit back and blast them army!
Also known as a no fun, power-gaming army. :rolleyes:

Lardidar
21-02-2006, 17:51
You seem to be lacking cavalry? Some Knights or pistoliers are always helpful.

I am currently running a all mounted/ hardly any shooting Dark elf army, I wanted to role reverse it, thats why I lack knights

I will be tweaking again in the next few days .... where I play tends to be magic heavy armies (8-13 power dice) so I have decided to not even try and stop them in the magic phase but to stop them in the shooting phase therefore wizards will be number one choice for all missile fire, I know that this will leave me real vulnerable in the magic phase but hey :)

DeathlessDraich its armies like that, that make good players not bother going to tournaments.

Grand Warlord
22-02-2006, 04:30
I play without knights/pistoliers and I dont have too much trouble tactically ... they can be nice but only if you really use them ... which i never did ... I am a too defensive person horses just die in my army ... so i got some more troops ... flagellants to be exact.

Keller
22-02-2006, 20:41
I'm not much for mounted units either. Its all infantry and artillery for me!

Thats not entirely true these days, since I've added a bunch of pistoliers, a Griffon, and Pegasus to my collection which I like to use from time to time. With the new(ish) Knightly Orders options I want to buy a box of knights to make a custom order, but have other projects on my desk for now.

Grand Warlord
22-02-2006, 23:04
I mix it up from time to time but for the most part i dont use them lol ... just die really fast lol

Imma_De_Freakin_Pope
28-02-2006, 04:52
Best to use is have at least 2 blocks of infantry (i love halberds and swordmen) with detachments of handgunners and spearmen

always at least one block of cavalry, and 2 pieces of artillery, the rest is up to you

Scott

Subscan
28-02-2006, 09:27
i like to field a lot of infantry.
nevertheless i learned it the hard way, that you canīt rely only on infantry. most players here use very fast armies. that being said, with empire as one of the slowest armies, i always have a need for some counterattacking units that are at least somehow fast.
believe me itīs no fun trying to reach the enemy while skinks are constantly swirling around you, and you canīt do anything about it.
itīs also not much fun having all these skirmishers, light cavalry and flyers waiting for a rear/flank charge while youīre looking for a close combat.
of course, you can also opt for stand and shoot, but i think these games are not much fun, neither for you nor for your opponent.
especially not for you, when all you can shoot at is skirmishing (possibly with T4)... :(

Simon23
28-02-2006, 14:14
IMO Pistoliers are one of the best units in the game. If I played empire i`d have minimum two units of 6.

ROCKY
28-02-2006, 14:37
In my "evil" empire army, I like to have artillary, cavalry, and around two big units of infantries with detachments. But I will always have 2-3 units of cavalry and definately with in them innercircles. I sometimes use pistoliers but perfer cannons. whats funny is that I perfer an Elector count over a grandmaster, even though I use a lot of cav.

Grand Warlord
02-03-2006, 03:59
When I increase from 2000 to 3000 ill probably add a Grand Master with a full detachment of Knights and Pistoliers and hopefully i can model them into decent looking angelic units.

Current I have 3 blocks of infantry (plus 1-2 detachments), 2-4 Artillary, 2 shooty units and flagellants ... its not that I am going shooty heavy i just roll so bad i want to make sure something dies lol ((Hopefully not my cannon))

I field an 'Inquisition' themed empire army ... oh i also have 2 scroll caddies but i hate magic and well Warrior-Priests just dont cut it ... but my general opponents love tzeencth.

Squire Jager
03-03-2006, 04:42
I find the Elector count to be indispensable. The Magic Banner rule and his LD 9 in the center of my army is well indispensable.
If im playing the 3000 pt range my other lord is usually a Grand Master. His unit of knights is a killer.

My cores usually are at least 2 big blocks of State Troops usually Spearmen and as much as I hate to take them Halberdiers( Im a fluff person). with det of Handgunners and Swordsmen. then I try and take a 16 man Handgun unit with a Rep. 10 shots a turn and only takes up room of 8. After that I like two take at least 5 knights Inner circle with the Banner of Valorthey become a flanking unit.

Specials usually are a large unit of Greatswords with Archer and Free Comp dets. Ive started liking the mortar recently, but a good Imperial Cannon is always in style. If I have the points I like Pistoleers.

Rares are usually Helblaster. Then Flagellants.

If I take DoW I usually settle on a regiment of Bull Ogres. Nobody ever expects that.

rune
07-03-2006, 06:21
Would any veteran Empire generals give me tips for making a successful Empire army based on primarily infantry with little magic & little war machines (though plenty of handheld ballistics).

I used to play Druchii, and was hard at work devising an intantry army that is still agressive and can perform when I realized I was using the wrong army for the task. Empire must be my ideal army for this task..

The obvious things that come to mind are a regiment of Greatswords(stubborn), a regiment of Flagellants(unbreakable), and two regiments of state troops, probably a regiment of Swordsmen & a regiment of Spearmen. The Swordsmen would have the Battle Standard, and the Spearmen would have the Elector Count with the Griffon Banner, making both of these regiments also dead hard, though not as hard as the Greatswords and Flags.

Then I had planned on using a plethora (3 or 4) 15-20 man units of Free Company to use MSU style, baiting and decoying, forcing charges, fleeing, setting up counter charges, etc. I think if I employed the free companies properly, the army would perform somewhat like a Skaven army except better in hand to hand. These regiments will go ahead of the big blocks, recieving charges so they can set up a charge by my slower infantry units. I also plan on march blocking quite a bit with two regiments of Pistoliers.. no heavy cavalry. Do you think this would be effective? What should I add?

Grand Warlord
03-04-2006, 23:34
Only problem is speed ... or do you fight a lot of M3-4 armies? I mean my foot army hardly gets the charge but ive gotten used to it ... which can be hard to do.

hiram
25-04-2006, 06:48
What do you guys think about pulling chaos knight out of position with a "ill fated" combat and forcde a flee to pull them in line with my cannons, also does second sign work on helblaster artillery dice.

T10
25-04-2006, 08:59
You will find it most amusing when you manage to pull it off.

Second Sign of Amul technically only allows re-rolls of a d6. The Artillery die does not qualtify. However, it can be used on the misfire chart to reduce the chance of losing the artillery piece. I would recommend against re-rolling all non-6 results.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
03-05-2006, 20:16
Hi

I don't play with empire but there's a guy at my club who does and you would not meet a nicer or more unlucky player because he smiles through every defeat and massacre.
So it'll be nice if he wins sometimes. I've tried to advice him but I'm essentially not an empire player.

Please make as many suggestions as possible.
This weekend he's be playing a 2150pt Ogre kingdom army with 3 butchers, Tyrant, Slave Giant, 3 minimal ogre bull units, 2 X 3 ironguts units and 2X 3 Yhettees, Leadbelchers and 20 gnoblars.

His army - Steam tank, Cannon, Hellblaster 18 great swords with a halberd detachment, 10 handgunners, 1 X 5 White Wolves, 1 X 5 Knightly orders, Wizard Lord, 2 wizards, 1 captain,
1 Pistolier unit and huntsmen.

Suggestions for Strategies and tactics will be most welcome?

Nils-Ake
03-05-2006, 20:48
Dont use the stank, it wont be good against a tyrant. Get another canon. dont use GS and knights. Take som normal infantery swordsmens with 2x 5free companiers for irritating all OK units and stopps him from making multi charges. Take an elector/Arch Lector and 2x wizards with 2scrolls and rod of power. thats make your magic defence really solid against the gut magic. I like a bsb with warbanner.

Tyra_Nid
05-05-2006, 10:11
His army - Steam tank, Cannon, Hellblaster 18 great swords with a halberd detachment, 10 handgunners, 1 X 5 White Wolves, 1 X 5 Knightly orders, Wizard Lord, 2 wizards, 1 captain,
1 Pistolier unit and huntsmen.

Is that all? Where is the infantry!?

The Infantry and Detachments are the backbone of an empire army. With that list, he has nothing to engage the bulk of the enemy force. His list is basically made up of auxillary units.

That is why he loses.

I would highly recommend you or he read a couple of classic Empire tacticas: Hitchhikers Guide (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=43) and TVI tactics (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=43).

I prefer Hitchhiker, but a lot of people favour TVI style, and it does have some benefits.

In anycase, he needs more infantry!

sergentzimm
01-10-2006, 13:46
Now that 7th has been out for a while, are you guys seeing any major tactics that have changed for the empire?

Mephistofeles
01-10-2006, 18:08
Don't know if Empire was effected that much, I mean, having to have 5-wide regiments is not a big deal (At least I already had that) and protecting wizards in units is pretty much the same thing, not such a big deal.

Squire Jager
02-10-2006, 16:39
I agree I usally run at least 5 wide and hide wizards in handgunners the new neat thing is that spearmen will not be as hamstrung on the side and rear charges. besides the big changes will come out of the new book. hopefully out soon.

mikec_81
02-10-2006, 18:06
I read that many people say they like Halberd detachments over swordsmen since Halberds get to strike first on the counter charge or supporting charge on the flank.

But isn't that bonus only for the first turn? And after the first turn wouldn't swordsmen be the much better unit to be on the flank since detachments tend to be small anyways so their defense might avoid situations of having the deatchment be reduced below Unit strength 5 and lose the +1 flank bonus?

Or are you betting that the halberds dish out enough damage that combined with the static CR, you are going to break and crush your opponent on the first round of combat?

Black Behemoth
02-10-2006, 18:26
Has anyone thought of giving the Griffon Standard to Spearmen? If you have 20 or 25 Spearmen with a Full Command and a detachment of FC or Halberdiers, you have 7 points to combat resolution to begin with, plus casualties you could inflict on the enemy. With the detachment removing the rank bonus, you have an excellent defensive unit that isn't too expensive either.

BTW, are Knightly Orders or Knights of the White Wolf better? Normal Knights have a better save, but White Wolf Knights have more of a punch in turns after the charge, but are more expensive. Which would be the better choice?

Von Wibble
02-10-2006, 18:52
Imo knightly orders are much better than White wolf.

On charge they are equal. The vanilla then have a better save.

OK, White Wolf have +1S at all other times. Big deal. If I'm fighting in any situation other than the 1st round on charge something has gone wrong. And the White Wolf are more expensive.

The only way I would take White Wolf (or, as they are in my army, The Order of The Most Holy) is for characterful reasons or for a 2nd inner circle unit - which I generally dislike doing.

I do use Spearmen with Griffon Standard. The sheer number of reroll attacks (I usually face Chaos and Undead) make them far better than swordsmen in attack. Only against Marauders is WS4 I4 better, and against S5 its a 6+ save compared to nothing. Also I have the models!

Favorite combo on the Elector Count is Van Horstman's Speculum, Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, mounted for a 1+ save. This gives enemy characters 2 attacks at S4 (so I have a 2+ save). Whatever their weaponry I have the edge. Great weapon/ killing blow? 2 attacks. Magic weapon? - I have a good save. Unless it ignores saves, but then with 2A and at best 4+ to wound that won't kill me quickly either. Sword of Power (lance if I'm feeling cheap) then allows a little killing power vs enemy.

Magic item that hasn't been mentioned is my 2nd favourite - The Rod of Power. Effectively +2 dispel dice. Unless you own the magic phase (unlikely with how I play) in which case its +2 power dice. If you have 2 wizards it is indispensable. I have even used 1 wizard with it in preference to a caddy before and done just fine.

Noble Korhedron
02-10-2006, 19:40
Wait a second? Re-rollable attacks from the Griffon Standard? Have I missed something?

Von Wibble
02-10-2006, 19:49
No, reroll from hatred.

I said I play Chaos and Undead, and I have a Warrior Priest with the unit.

Also the rumour is that Warrior Priests (or is it just Arch Lectors) will grant hatred vs anyone.

sergentzimm
03-10-2006, 03:53
What are your thoughts on detachement size in 7th? keep to 8, or is there a reason to bump it up to 10? I am thinking that the ranks could become important in some instances.

Keller
03-10-2006, 17:27
What are your thoughts on detachement size in 7th? keep to 8, or is there a reason to bump it up to 10? I am thinking that the ranks could become important in some instances.

I have always liked my detachments in units of 10 or 12. They are not that much more expensive, and they become much more capable on their own; great for sending against small enemy units.

If you want the rank bonus, you had best go for 12. With only 10, a single casualty has stripped your bonus that you intended.

Elcampbello
03-10-2006, 21:44
someone care to give me adivce VS dwarves. Can't beat em in comabt, was thinking a gun line might work best.

Von Wibble
07-01-2007, 12:56
With the new book now out I am wondering what changes people may or may not make to their army composition.

Here are my own thoughts. In many cases stating the obvious I hasten to add. All comments realte to the gaming use of teh army and are not a critique of the book.

Plusses

- Cheaper infantry

- Arch Lectors added (and warrior priests improved)

- Special characters - imo only Luthor Huss is not worth taking.

- With just a few exceptions all magic items either cheaper, better, or both!

- Helstorm added

- Flagellants can be core, but otoh their uses have changed.

- Greatswords improved

- Outriders added

- Inner Circle not 0-1

Minuses

- Inner Circle take up special

- Engineer more expensive and still imo not worth taking

- Helblaster and Steam Tank both weakened (imo quite rightly too!)

- Slight points increase for wizards (but their magic items are cheaper so swings and roundabouts)

Griffon standard not as viable a strategy (again quite right!)

Overall I feel that any strategies that were viable before still work, but there are more options. The empire army is looking strong.

Picking out the new stuff, what kind of strategies for selection and use would people have for the arch lector?

My own opinion is that protection isn't needed if he has a war alter thanks to the ward save so I would give items that either enhance him in combat or improve the army in some way. The silver horn for example is an item that is very nice but I just can't find the magic item points on characters - now I can...Plenty of other good enchanted items that work also - orb of thunder, van horstmanns, doomfire ring, aldred's casket....

MAD MAN-A-TRON
23-06-2007, 05:22
Greetings Gentlemen,
I've recently purchased an empire army off a friend of mine. It's about 2,700 points worth with three blocks of twenty soldiers, three large units of knights (about 8 each), about twenty four hand gunners, a hell blaster, a cannon, a mortar, a cannon/mortar box, two engineers, about 4 wizards on foot, one on horse back, one hero on foot, one hero mounted, a bsb, a warrior priest on horseback (I think its the luthor huss model), a hero on a griffon, and I thinks that's it, *phew* I'm out of breath. This is the list that I have so far:

Lords:
156, General of the Empire, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Great Weapon, Holy Relic

Heroes:
98, Captain of the Empire, Full Plate Armor, Sword of Battle, BSB

135, Battle Wizard, Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Wizard's Staff,
Hand Weapon

127, Warrior Priest, Heavy armor, Great Weapon, Barded Warhorse, sigil of sigmar.

Core:
300, 25 Swordsmen, Full Command
Detachment, 10 Handgunners
Detachment, 10 Halberdiers

250, 25 Spearmen, Shields, Full Command
Detachment, 10 Handgunners

270, 10 Knights Panther, Full Command

Special:
222, 7 Knights of Sigmars Blood, Full Command,
Knights of the Inner Circle

100, Great Cannon

75, Mortar

Rare:
110, Helblaster Volley Gun

154, 3 Irongut Mercenaries, Bellower

Total: 1997

I think I have a pretty good start here. I have two solid blocks of infantry, each backed up by a detachment of hand gunners, I also have two solid cavalry units, the knights of the inner circle would be joined by the warrior priest, the spearmen would be joined by the bsb, and the swords men would be joined by the general. I have some good artillery and I was even able to get a unit of ironguts in, with the poularity of fear causing armies like OK; I think these guys will be a good aid to my units. Well, what do you think, what suggestions and revisions do you, thanks for looking.

colhodg
23-06-2007, 14:36
Looks like a fairly solid, standard list - althoughyou have too many points ivested in your general if you only intend him to sit with the infantry. Tactically you'll be pretty limited with what you can do with just two infantry units - this is pretty much a defensive list up to the point you have the knights in position, but that's how i see most Empire played.

Other than force selection i'm curious about what tactics people use, esp as empire seems to favour taking big basic blocks of infantry rather than tooled up characters. Some points for consideration:

-The new supporting charge rule makes attacking with infantry a lot more effective - flank charges from the front arc with detachments are going to be nasty if you can manouver in to charge range.
-Combat detachments need to be place so that if they're charged they can flee and in turning to charge them the enemy leaves his flank exposed to your parent unit. This way you stop him from nerfing your detachments.
-You really need Ld 8 to lead your infantry unless you plan on playing a gunline or just knights.
-Defensive fire from detachments is no longer -1 to hit making handgunner detachments very attractive.
-Cannons work best on extreme flanks where they can maximise flank shots and the chance of hitting more than one unit.
- 5 Pistoliers make a great exploitation unit tucked in behind the knights for protection unitl the knights charge into a flank - then get them into the rear.

natedogg710
28-08-2007, 15:02
I'm thinking of starting an empire army and could use some help. Could someone give me a rundown of effective units/tactics of an Empire army using the new book?

Thanks for the help.

Napoleon Blownapart
03-09-2007, 12:38
RANKS AND FLANKS

Take lots of infantry if you are looking to use empire's main advantage.
You should always take advantage of the empires artillery, and you will benefit from it greatly even if you don't abuse it. They also have great magic selection.
Swordsmen are considered a "mainstay", and they re certainly a good deal. WS4 and 4+ armor save in combat for 6pts is ownage!

fearchanges
04-09-2007, 17:10
it depends on how you would like to play them;
Empire is a very balanced army which can be played offensive with a lot of Cavalry or defensive by using the guns and Artillery they have.
Or just go through the middle; Solid infantry center with Greatswords, Swordsmen and Flaggelants, Cavalry for flank protection and Artillery as support.
One thing which makes Empire different from all other armies is that they use Detachments. Nothing better than a small unit of (for example) Halberdiers or Crossbowmen for supporting and counter charges or fire, besides that, they donīt cause panic in other units and are disposable if needed.

Grand Warlord
01-12-2007, 06:00
What are your thoughts on infantry heavy lists?

I dont have my list with me but its mainly infantry plus handguns plus artillary and some magic. need to find my list and post it up..

BenK
01-12-2007, 12:32
I'm planning to build the following army over summer:

General, BSB, Wizard, Warrior Priest (I love the Empire's character selection.)

3 Battalions of: 25 Swordsmen, 10 man Halberdier detatchment, 10 man Handgunner detatchment.

7 Keniggets with command

6 Pistoliers

2 Cannon

12 Halflings

I hope to use the detatchment rules to full advantage.

SJM
02-12-2007, 03:42
Going to be fighting a 2000 pt. Chaos Horde army of Khorne in our ME campaign. I believe my opponent is going to have a Lord of Chaos riding a Chaos Dragon with unknown magic items but knowing the player he;ll be maxed out point wise. I have 2200 pts. to spend. Suggestions? I'm thinking of taking 3 cannons with a couple Master Engineers, my usual unit of Outriders and a Hellblaster. Somewhat cheesy but a Chaos dragon ridden by a Lord is rather cheesy (IMHO).

Makarion
02-12-2007, 06:44
Don't take the master engineers. It may be beardy that way, but that doesn't make it any good....

If you want cheese, though, you can match fire with fire and bring Karl Franz on his own dragon, of course, or an arch lector (might as well take the war altar) with the VHS if your opponent isn't familiar with that trick.

If he is, and you don't feel like KF, stick to 3 cannon or so and a block of 30 or so flagellants - that should keep him busy for a while. In the meantime, you can kill the rest of his army.

Grand Warlord
02-12-2007, 20:18
Dragon Lords are expensive take it out with your cannons

Templar_Victorious
03-01-2008, 11:46
So, a new year, and perhaps a fresh start with new games and re-invented tactics?

Chimerus
04-01-2008, 01:21
hey, i was thinking of starting WFB, perhaps as empire. As a 40k player, i really like lots of guns. how would an empire army using lots of guns work? what kind of units would one use?

Helgrund
04-01-2008, 02:57
gunline armies have a bad rep in wfb. they lack in tactical finesse and are no fun to play against.

anyway what you want is

wizard lord
1 or 2 battle wizards
captain on pegasus for march blocking and diversion

handgunners
crossbows (for range)

knights or pistoliers for march blocking and diversion
outriders

2 cannons
2 helstorms

you can change one of the helstorms for a defensive STank as the enemy will come to you.

Grand Warlord
05-01-2008, 17:55
I do apologize for not reading all 9 pages of this nice thread, been out of the hobby for about 2 years now, and well now i'm back in force.

As for the Gunline Idea, Helgrund has it pretty well written out for ya.
[/topicchange]
Now, here's my problem...

I like taking a infantry heavy list, supported by artillary and ranged gunfire. I dont know what to take for my Lord/Hero choices. I have faith in my list, i just roll below average, CONSISTENTLY.

Templar_Victorious
06-01-2008, 14:04
Nothing I can help you with, directly... I usually roll High for hit and wound, and low for leadership tests... Like having 10 handgunners, shooting at a Stegadon with 3 wounds left. Hitting with 3 shots, and rolling 3 6:s, and the enemy needing 3 6:s to save... and no saves are made.

Sir Spoon 88
20-02-2008, 00:15
Reading a lot of these posts and i am seeing a lot of Empire Generals.. I cant see how these lords can have the impact your oppenents general have on the battle. IMO Grand Masters are the shiz diggity. WS6, S4 static plus a lance charge S6, A4 and considerably leadership. Of course i always keep to the fluff and run a list with 3 units of knights, but give this guy holy relic (to save against that nasty magic stuff and cannons) and a Laurels of Victory and he is gonna get some serious combat rez.

Also i am using two warrior priests to try and get some of their mad prayers off, and combining with a wizard to draw the dispels out early. However i can see a need for a BSB against anything that causes fear or terror. But i think i got this covered with the Master of Battles rule, Rod of Command and Icon of Magnus. I am running only a single block of Swordsman and Flagellants as my rank n file troops, then knights, gunners and pistoliers w/ cannon and magic to back up. Can you guys see any other reason to include a BSB over a war priest in the swordsman w/ Rod of Command??

Templar_Victorious
20-02-2008, 00:57
Yes, if the BSB was Ludwig Schwarzhelm... =P Fluff wise, and the KB on one guy with Sword of Justice, it could turn out better than first thought, especially if you have lore of Heavens Second Sign of Amul, albeit weaker than before. With the previous ed Helblaster and SSoA, devastation was almost certain.

Sir Spoon 88
22-02-2008, 04:29
SSoA and the hellblaster sounds like a great combo, just a shame its not the 1st lvl spell...:( I took a run with my list against Woodies and got owned in the face!! My knights, eaten but Arcane bodkins, my flagellants stalled by a moving forest due to rolling two sets of snake eyes to dispel and my 25 block o' swordsman lost almost half its guys within the first shooting phase.

Was tough against the guy who i pretty much brainstormed my list with, lol. I used lore of light and managed to kill the treeman 1st turn with burning gaze so i think ill play with him some more.

But seriously how can i guard my flanks effectively against such a fast movign foe who can pretty much leave my charge area when he wants!!

Also what are your guys thoughts on moving gunners?? against wood elves i had to to get in range initially. Or should i hold back and wait???

SilentTempest
22-02-2008, 12:30
I'm no expert, but wait for WHAT?

As a Wood Elf player, if I'm targeting your handgunners and you aren't moving them to get into range, I'll happily sit outside their range and continue to plink away at them.

Some solutions might be:
- Sending vanilla knights after them.
- Taking crossbows for their range (WE don't have much armour for handguns to work against anyway)
- Could try an artillery piece like a mortar, but probably only advised if you're a decent guesser. Helstorm is probably overkill vs WE.

Sir Spoon 88
25-02-2008, 07:06
I guess i shouldnt try and match the handgunners against the WE glade guard. But use them to some other effect and use either a light unit of Knights or a unit of my own fast cav. I used a cannon in that game and all he did to avoid its effects was to never reveal any flanks of his wild riders or glade guard. Perhaps Lore of Life may have been good to get him out of those forests. But we'll see, next game will prolly be against HE, Chaos or Dwarves. Either way should be a solid battle line army for me to break.

hiram
28-02-2008, 05:04
with the empire i have discovered that if you put all of your eggs in one basket you will soon have no eggs. a balanced empire force is the best way to go. always ensur that you have plenty of state troops but don't horde out. one or two cavalry units to get in that real fast danger factor and at most one war machine per state troopers. as far as characters go they are the icing on the cake.

gsmc
14-03-2008, 03:26
What's the view on the war altar? Effective? Worth the points? Or just one more obvious item for your opponent to focus on while you work on him with the other parts of your army?

Mr. Shine
24-04-2008, 15:47
Yet another player wanting to get into Warhammer Fantasy from 40K and I'm looking at the possibility of Empire. Basically, I'm wanting a mounted force that is fun and not stupidly ineffective to play. I don't mind a steep learning curve, so long as the army I have looks good and has the potential to win games without too much hassle.

So what are peoples' thoughts on Empire as a mounted force? I was thinking of a 1000pts list based around two units of Knights, but beyond that... I don't know anything so my ideas probably aren't much use.

Help please? :)

Marwynn
24-04-2008, 18:18
The Empire may lack choices in Cavalry compared to the Bretonnians, but they'll do quite alright.

You can have core Knight Orders, one Knight Order Inner Circle count as Special, and Pistoliers for fast cavalry. Mount a Warrior Priest and you'd do quite well.

Supported by a Great Cannon and maybe one Wizard with Dispel Scrolls to keep your enemy's mages honest and you have a nice list.

However, it's not going to be unbeatable. And you probably won't learn the subtleties of Empire combat with a "CHAAARRRRGGGEE!" list.

But people do make such army lists and they're viable and more importantly they are FUN!

Jack of Blades
24-04-2008, 18:25
Off topic, but what did made the 6th ed. Second Sign of Amul so powerful?

Frankly
25-04-2008, 00:01
Yet another player wanting to get into Warhammer Fantasy from 40K and I'm looking at the possibility of Empire. Basically, I'm wanting a mounted force that is fun and not stupidly ineffective to play. I don't mind a steep learning curve, so long as the army I have looks good and has the potential to win games without too much hassle.

So what are peoples' thoughts on Empire as a mounted force? I was thinking of a 1000pts list based around two units of Knights, but beyond that... I don't know anything so my ideas probably aren't much use.

Help please? :)

They make a very effective mounted force. Empire cavalry lists strengths lay in there fast cavalry support and/or steam tank support.

I really like the looks of an empire cavalry army on the table top as well.

Frankly
25-04-2008, 00:10
I like taking a infantry heavy list, supported by artillary and ranged gunfire. I dont know what to take for my Lord/Hero choices. I have faith in my list, i just roll below average, CONSISTENTLY.

Depends on whats in your list. I used to play the same kind of list, lots of cheap blocks of units backed up with a good amount of shooting.

I ended up taking a good amount of magic to deal with skirmishers that blocked LOS. But the lists is more effective with the minimum of a lord, a BSB and a scroll caddie. Less points spent in characters slots = more points spent in rank and file unit, which is the strength of the empire army book.

Mr. Shine
25-04-2008, 01:59
That is very good to hear, because with all their shiny, new(ish) models the Empire do look very nice.

I am wondering however how you all recommend unit sizes to go. Everyone seems to keep cavalry at small sizes (5-7 strong) but given I've never played Fantasy I don't know why. Anyone able to share some light in layman's terms?

Also, what is good as far as Heroes in a 1000pt army? Having come from 40K I always tried to spend 10% or less of the total points on my HQ choice. I've seen lists in Fantasy and it certainly gets to be anywhere up to 20%, sometimes beyond. What's a good, reliable idea for a General? Is a "naked" Wizard with Dispel Scrolls enough for a second Hero choice?

And again... I do love the Pistoliers models, and I do love the Outriders models. I've noticed in terms of points there's not a huge difference. Is one better than the other in any significant way?

I think my final question comes with the Steam Tank. I love the model to pieces, but is it even close to worth fielding in 1000pts? I think not, but I don't know much about Fantasy, so I'll turn it over to you lot. If not 1000pts, is it viable for 1500pts?

Thanking you all profusely :)

Frankly
25-04-2008, 02:09
And again... I do love the Pistoliers models ....


If you like pistoliers then your love playing empire all cavalry.

Got to go to rugby .... but I've most my all cavalry list after that.

Marwynn
25-04-2008, 03:07
That is very good to hear, because with all their shiny, new(ish) models the Empire do look very nice.

I am wondering however how you all recommend unit sizes to go. Everyone seems to keep cavalry at small sizes (5-7 strong) but given I've never played Fantasy I don't know why. Anyone able to share some light in layman's terms?


Combat in WFB is decided by Combat Resolution, it adds Wounds you've dealt with various other factors to decide victory for a specific 'combat'. Infantry blocks have, for the empire 4-6 ranks each with 5 models. This means that even if they don't kill a lot they get various Combat Resolution bonuses that lets them win combats.

Knights can't rely on that. If you have 10 Knights arranged 5 wide and 2 deep those extra 5 Knights in the second rank just provide a +1 bonus to Combat Resolution.

A bit of a waste.

Especially since they're Core units and they're not really restricted.

Also, by having two units of 5 Knights you can outflank a block Infantry with one of them denying them the rank bonus for Combat Resolution.

5 is the minimum amount necessary. However 7-wide allows you to maximize the frontage when attacking a standard 5-wide unit. Lets you get more attacks in.

Also, smaller units are much more maneuverable. Quite important for cavalry.



Also, what is good as far as Heroes in a 1000pt army? Having come from 40K I always tried to spend 10% or less of the total points on my HQ choice. I've seen lists in Fantasy and it certainly gets to be anywhere up to 20%, sometimes beyond. What's a good, reliable idea for a General? Is a "naked" Wizard with Dispel Scrolls enough for a second Hero choice?


The Empire's Heroes aren't as fighter-oriented as the other armies' Heroes. That doesn't mean they can't kick butt.

They're also quite cheap, points-wise, for what they do.

A standard Captain of the Empire with Full Plate Armour (FPA) and a Barded Warhorse and a Lance/Shield will see you through.

Those "naked" Mages with 2 x Dispel Scrolls are called 'scroll caddies', they're there to simply cast those Scrolls to remove inopportune spells. Not worth it at 1000 points usually.

I'd settle for a Warrior Priest on a mount. He'll offer some Bound Spells, an extra Dispel Dice, and make one of your Knight units reroll their misses on their first round of combat.



And again... I do love the Pistoliers models, and I do love the Outriders models. I've noticed in terms of points there's not a huge difference. Is one better than the other in any significant way?

They fulfill different purposes.

Pistoliers operate as harassers and march blockers (marching doubles your movement but you can't do so if there's an enemy unit 8" away). This allows you to pick apart the enemy as they can't advance in a straightforward manner.

They are also quick enough that they can get to your enemy's rear lines and kill warmachine crews or solo characters.

Outriders are mobile weapons teams. They can march block somewhere, and if you're facing a mostly Hand-to-Hand army, they have impunity to shoot like mad.

They fullfill different purposes altogether.



I think my final question comes with the Steam Tank. I love the model to pieces, but is it even close to worth fielding in 1000pts? I think not, but I don't know much about Fantasy, so I'll turn it over to you lot. If not 1000pts, is it viable for 1500pts?

Thanking you all profusely :)

You'll get all sorts of weird looks by fielding a Stank at that points level. Also, it's not that invincible, 2-3 wounds can reduce its effectiveness. 4-5 wounds and it's a sitting duck.

Also it's prone to some Magic, like those from the Lore of Metal. In short it's usually not worth it.

I'd save it for 2000 points but even then I'd rather have another warmachine.

One you get to 2000 points grab the Templar Grand Master. Now there's one beast of a Lord.

Mr. Shine
25-04-2008, 03:30
Very comprehensive, thank you very much!

That's cleared up the worries I had... now I'm wondering about this:

Heroes

Captain of the Empire - 103pts
-Hand Weapon
-Lance
-Full Plate Armour
-Shield
-Icon of Magnus (I figured at the low cost it'd be a nice improvement for a harder-hitting unit)
Warhorse
-Barding

Warrior Priest of Sigmar - 129pts
-Hand Weapon
-Great Weapon
-Armour of Meteoric Iron (I'm not sure if this is worth it? I figured it only works out as 15pts if I compare it with Barding, Heavy Armour and Shield)
Warhorse

Core

6x Knightly Orders - 162pts
-Musician
-Standard Bearer

6x Knightly Orders - 162pts
-Musician
-Standard Bearer

(These units will be joined by the Captain and Warrior Priest, as you can guess. I'm going with your statement of 7-strong (total) maximizing the frontage for standard units. Is it worth going up to 8-strong total? That way I can save money buying 2 boxes of Knights and converting the heroes...)

Special

5x Pistoliers - 97pts
-Musician

5x Pistoliers - 97pts
-Musician

5x Outriders - 123pts
-Musician
-Barding (I figure if these will be finding a nice place to rain death and have to stand still to do so, they may as well be protected?)


That brings me to a total of 873pts... so about 125pts to spare. Any thoughts on the list so far and what to fill it with?

I'd just like to say again how helpful this is :D

Colonel Haizelhoff
25-04-2008, 11:51
I'd add in some artillery propably the rocket battery as you have enough anti eavy armor.

Mr. Shine
25-04-2008, 12:01
I'd thought about adding in either the Helstorm Rocket Battery or Helblaster Volley Gun, but I'm not sure it's so wise considering I expect most of my army to be racing away from my deployment area, leaving the artillery quite vulnerable.

On thing I was considering is adding in a 7-strong unit of Light Cavalry from the Dogs of War list, with Musician and Standard Bearer and armed with Spears and Shields. They'd come to 128pts which is absolutely perfect, and could add some nice character to the force. I would imagine they'd also be perfect for hunting and tying up enemy war machines and characters?

Anyway, I'm off to a couple of auctions at Games Workshop tomorrow, so fingers crossed I can pick up some Empire stuff cheap :)

Colonel Haizelhoff
25-04-2008, 12:17
Thats a good idea actually didnt come to think about that.

Marwynn
25-04-2008, 15:38
Very comprehensive, thank you very much!

That's cleared up the worries I had... now I'm wondering about this:

Heroes

Captain of the Empire - 103pts
-Hand Weapon
-Lance
-Full Plate Armour
-Shield
-Icon of Magnus (I figured at the low cost it'd be a nice improvement for a harder-hitting unit)
Warhorse
-Barding

Warrior Priest of Sigmar - 129pts
-Hand Weapon
-Great Weapon
-Armour of Meteoric Iron (I'm not sure if this is worth it? I figured it only works out as 15pts if I compare it with Barding, Heavy Armour and Shield)
Warhorse


Solid enough. However I would prefer going heavy armour, shield, and some sort of one handed magic weapon on a barded warhorse.




Core

6x Knightly Orders - 162pts
-Musician
-Standard Bearer

6x Knightly Orders - 162pts
-Musician
-Standard Bearer

(These units will be joined by the Captain and Warrior Priest, as you can guess. I'm going with your statement of 7-strong (total) maximizing the frontage for standard units. Is it worth going up to 8-strong total? That way I can save money buying 2 boxes of Knights and converting the heroes...)


Seems good. 8 wide is a bit unwieldy. 6 is fine at this points level.



Special

5x Pistoliers - 97pts
-Musician

5x Pistoliers - 97pts
-Musician

5x Outriders - 123pts
-Musician
-Barding (I figure if these will be finding a nice place to rain death and have to stand still to do so, they may as well be protected?)


Outriders lose their Fast Cav status when you equip them with barding. That doesn't mean much except they lose their 360 degree firing arc. That's essential since they aren't going to be doing a lot of moving.

The extra +1 AS won't do them any good.



That brings me to a total of 873pts... so about 125pts to spare. Any thoughts on the list so far and what to fill it with?

I'd just like to say again how helpful this is :D

I'd grab one Great Cannon. Or yes a rocket battery.

If neither of those suit your tastes... A "Nilla" 5-man Knight Order would be good too. Enough points for a Musician too.

You could also grab a L2 Battle Wizard, plonk him in a mount and join the Pistoliers or Outriders. Cast some crazy spells and whatnot.

Mr. Shine
25-04-2008, 15:54
I'd forgotten completely about losing their firing arcs... I'd just been reading about that in the Rulebook today! That's certainly a change I'm going to make.

As far as the Cannon/Rocket Battery goes, would it not be too vulnerable on its lonesome? It feels a bit odd to include something so static in so mobile a force. That and I can't afford another Special choice, right? Up to 3 choices in less than 2,000pts?

Removing the barding from the Outriders nets me an extra 10 points to play with, which would allow me a command-less 6-strong unit of Knights in there if I remove the Light Cavalry, too. Would they be a better choice than Light Cavalry?

neXus6
16-06-2008, 22:34
*cracks knuckles*

Threadomancy GO!
.....................

Soo I was thinking the other night about the fact that Marauders are still only going to be bit players in the Chaos army once Warriors of Chaos comes out. I've always wanted marauders to be fleshed out but it seems this isn't going to happen.

Fallback plan B, use the Empire Book and Marauders on 20mm bases. My thoughts go along the lines of Characters as Various Warlord/Chieftans/Shaman, Swordsmen as basic Marauders, as they had the same stats, some converted Marauder Bowmen as Archers, Knights/Greatswords for the Warlord/Chieftans Elite Guard, Pistoliers for Horse Archers (after reading Riders of the Dead I've always wanted marauder horse archers to be fast firing close range missile troops that pack a punch, I would go with outriders but move or fire :(), and Flagellents as Berserker/Flail Marauders.

Basicly a no gunpowder Empire army using Marauder(and possibly some kislev horse archer) models and wizards using Beast, Death or Shadow.

I was just wondering if you slightly more experianced Empire Generals would think the army would work on the table, I would probably end up playing them like slightly better trained but weaker Orcs seeing as I've been a Greenskin player for 14 years. :p

dejavu
17-06-2008, 19:13
i like the idea of a marauder-based empire army. it might be a bit vulnerable to fast moving units (chariots and so on) and lack abit of hitting power (no heavy cav)though. however it can have lashings of infantry (the backbone of any empire force). p.s. if you cut the ball and chain off the flail you have the base for either spear or halberd. happy converting!

neXus6
17-06-2008, 19:48
:D
I recon marauders would have some heavy cav. just very little of it. Just cause they aren't chaos warriors doesn't mean the biggest and toughest can't batter together enough armour to cover themself and a horse. :)
I would be using them with great weapons though cause a 1+ save is too much, inner circle to show they are the elite respected arm of the Warlord.

This is probably a pipe dream while I get my Slannesh daemon army finished but I'm sure when the Warriors of Chaos book comes out I'll get the urge to do a Marauder army again...now the important thing...Do marauders fit on 20mm bases and rank up? :p

pkain762
29-06-2008, 17:12
i am wanting to start an empire army..... i have the army book.... got a empire genral... a bsb a warrior priest and a unit of knights.... i have the warrior priest on foot and i am loving the idea of putting him in w/a unit of flagelants...... but i was wondering what are some good solid units to buy for my first 1000 pts...

i am looking to build a well balanced army.... so i'm not doing a straight up cav or shooty or infantry army... a good balance of all three is what i'm going for....

kain

Noble Korhedron
29-06-2008, 18:26
i am wanting to start an empire army..... i have the army book.... got a empire genral... a bsb a warrior priest and a unit of knights.... i have the warrior priest on foot and i am loving the idea of putting him in w/a unit of flagelants...... but i was wondering what are some good solid units to buy for my first 1000 pts...

i am looking to build a well balanced army.... so i'm not doing a straight up cav or shooty or infantry army... a good balance of all three is what i'm going for....

kain

Hi, I know I've been inactive here for months, but my first love is Empire, so..........

* Go for at least two large(min. 20 troops) blocks of infantry-use of detachments is up to you, but I find that the negated rank bonus really pays off if they survive to claim that bonus!

* Avoid heavy cavalry altogether in 1,000pts....You just don't have the room in pts for them if you're going to have more than 2 infantry blocks.Save 'em for 1,500-2,000 pts games....

* Go for at least 1 war machine....Preferably a mortar if you want to keep pts-light...

*Stick to one wizard and one combat hero for the general....However, if you want to make 1,500 pts, you can do this quite easily by taking the max. 3 characters, as depending on how they're equipped they can cost up to 500+ pts....

But for the moment, as you want just 1,000 pts, I'd say a scroll caddy and captain are better choices...

* Take at least one unit of Greatswords in all your armies...No general worth his salt ever marches to war without them....Unit size and composition I leave up to you....

Well, that's all I can remember for now...So digest my 2c and see what you think-toodles!

bassmasterliam
29-06-2008, 19:14
and i am loving the idea of putting him in w/a unit of flagelants.

unfortunatly you can't put a warrior preist in a unit of flagelants, because they are unbreakeable.

I think if you are playing 1000pts then you should use a mortar because you would be against more infantry blocks, and because its cheaper.

light cavelry is best as well at 1000pts, at most outriders.

swordsmen are great for parent units

the best detachments are halberdiers because of their plus one strenght which is good against
armored foes.

Kahadras
29-06-2008, 20:06
I'm wanting to start an empire army. I have the army book, an Empire general, a BSB, a Warrior priest and a unit of knights. I have the warrior priest on foot and I'm loving the idea of putting him in w/a unit of flagellants. I was wondering what are some good solid units to buy for my first 1000 pts.

I'm looking to build a well balanced army so I'm not doing a straight up cav, shooty or infantry army


I'd say you'll need at least a single deep block infantry unit in your army at 1000 points. I'd go for something like 25 Swordsmen with full command (champion, standard bearer and musician). I'd also throw in at least one detachment (probably more Swordsmen) to help out in combat.

I'd probably drop the BSB into this unit and give him a decent magic armour (Armour of Meteoric Iron) to keep him alive. I'd also think about adding the Warrior Priest as well to make the unit really hard.

I'd then add in a couple of units of Crossbowmen as they have a good range and strength. To back them up I'd also take a Great cannon to deal with warmachines and heavily armoured knights. I'd then throw in a small unit of knights to work as a maneuverable hammer unit. After that though you can pretty much go after what takes your fancy. I usualy go for Pistoliers as they are fairly cheap and are highly effective light cavalry.

Kahadras

pkain762
01-07-2008, 00:53
i bought some state troops... and am about to put them together.. i'm just wondering what are the best type of state troops you guys have used.... i hear a lot about swordsmen.... is this true....? halbierders get plus one str....... and the spearmen get to fight in ranks of 2 so which ones do you guys find more effective

kain

Marwynn
01-07-2008, 01:34
The purpose of State Troops is to win through Combat Resolution. That means staying alive. Swordsmen, for a point more, are at a 4+ save and have WS4 making them tougher than a Halberdier or a Spearman.

Spearmen are the second most popular choice after Swordsmen. The extra rank benefits them somewhat. You'll still pay the points for a Shield. Halberdiers have the option of being versatile, going for either an S4 attack or for a better save with HW+S. The problem is that versatility isn't that necessary.

They're all workable. Most prefer Swordsmen. For detachments they're usually again Swordsmen or Free Company.

lparigi34
01-07-2008, 02:13
I do like the flexibility of the Halberds... HW&Sh if charged, Halberds when charging.... nice.

As for detachments, as I never take charges with them I do prefer to have Halberds.

My core ranges from Swordmen to Spearmen and Greatswords.

Frankly
01-07-2008, 10:13
Spearmen are the second most popular choice after Swordsmen. The extra rank benefits them somewhat. You'll still pay the points for a Shield.

I'll NEVER pay for shields on my spermen, one of the reasons I take spearmen is for the fact the they're a cheap hording unit.

Swordsmen are at the top of the pile for points values and taking on all comers. But once I started playng my list, I realised that the empire armybook actually prvides you choices to put units into niche roles. Spearmen fill the niche role of taking on lesser infantry core units really well, units like gobbo's, zombies(even skellies), small deamon units, units with low armour values such as GW wielding marauders are all units that spearmen do well deploying against.

Spearmen + detachments = a unit that has great static CR, great options to deny static CR to the enemy unit, an able unit to do wounds. Again if you target the right unit, they perform really well.

Usually I run the unit 6 wide and 4 deep, which gives me 12(or 13 with a captain)attacks in combat, which is nothing special, but will do well against lesser units.

pkain762
01-07-2008, 13:40
thanks for the input... i think i'm going to w/the big block of spearmen.... and then add a couple of detachments with halbierders or swordsmen..... that way they will provide a nice countercharge or a nice support charge

kain

klstrider28
04-07-2008, 02:10
heys guys
I was spectating a game earlier with empire involved and the enemy decided to charge a detachment. That made me start to think if that would be effective counter to a detachment's effectiveness. At first I thought that the detachment would have been protected by some rule about charging or priority but I couldn't find anything and target priority is a 40k thing. The only way I could think to counter this would be to elect to flee and flank with the parent unit in the next empire turn or try to hold and flank with the parent unit next turn. The players were friends of mine and aren't power gamers or anything so it made me wonder if charging detachments is a useful tactic or is my idea of countering it already accepted, or maybe i've misread some rules.

Luna
04-07-2008, 06:19
If you keep your detachments four or five inches behind your main line you shouldn't have any problems with charges. If you ever get a charge, then flee. Your main block should be able to hit the chargers in the side.

Vandur Last
05-07-2008, 07:37
If your opponents charge your Detachments all the time you can try putting a small unit of un-upgraded Knights behind the Detachment. After the Detachment flees you hit him in the flank with the Paren unit and in the front with the Knights.
This accomplished two things.

1) Knights should help you break the enemy unit faster, unless he has some uber-killy character in the front rank.

2) Knights can pursue the fleeing unit with 3D6, increasing chances of catching them.

3) Since the Knights pursued the Parent unit can now hold its ground in preparation of the next enemy wave, rather than moving forward towards further combat without any Detachments to keep an eye on thier flank.

pkain762
08-07-2008, 18:40
if the detachment flees then rallies.... and you move it back to within the parent unit..... the detachment still gets the detachment special rules.... right?

that's how i see it working out

kain

Grand Warlord
13-07-2008, 17:37
That is how I work it too Pkain762, no complaints yet.

Marwynn
13-07-2008, 22:12
if the detachment flees then rallies.... and you move it back to within the parent unit..... the detachment still gets the detachment special rules.... right?

that's how i see it working out

kain

Yes, the only limitation is that it must be within 3" to get the benefit of the detachment rules. So it can act like its own unit if you move them out farther than that. Then bring them back to within 3" and you get all the rules back.

Succoros
20-07-2008, 05:21
When doing the big solid blocks thing, whats the opinion on dogs of war pikes? Specifically the Republican guard, 25 are about 90pts more than 50 empire spearmen (w/o shields) but come with heavy armour, ws4 striking first when charged with 24 attacks and a decent hero level character. I was thinking it'd make a nice centre and as the list has enough cheap troops I won't feel the loss of 25 more spears. Then again no detachments so losing out on one of the biggest strengths of the list.
Also, 1st post wooo.

Admiral Samuel Eden
20-07-2008, 06:19
There are so many builds I use for different purposes but for character killing, I use a battle wizard with VHS and a sword of battle and make a wizard of shadow. He kicks ass. In one game, he ate his way through a chaos lord, exalted champion of chaos and a daemonic herald. If you really want to go overkill and are prepared to pay the points you can get a wizard lord and give him VHS and Sword of Fate.
Otherwise, I use a General but I build him differently a lot so its hard to define. I play a lot of tournaments and I have found several builds to be highly effective.
In larger games, I often employ a captain on Pegasus with 2HW and go hunting. This works really well.
As to blocks. I love swordsmen with detachments of handguners and halberdiers but I have experimented with DoW. Republican Guard are probably one of the best but they are all very expensive and pikes aren't very good.

The Farmer
20-07-2008, 09:00
Can a captain even be given 2HW when mounted, or is the pegasus exempt from this?

Kidjal
20-07-2008, 10:49
Seems not, doesn't mention it specifically in the Empire book but the rule for two hand weapons stands for infantry only, according to the rulebook. Shame that.

ordomalleus
13-08-2008, 15:35
I just spotted in the army book that a warrior priest can use a prayer once per magic phase, doese that include the enemies magic phase? because that would amke it a lot harder for my enmy to dispell my 3 priests' prayers because they only get one set of dispell dice for both phases.

Templar_Victorious
14-08-2008, 22:26
Off topic, but what did made the 6th ed. Second Sign of Amul so powerful?

Woops, sorry about not letting you see a reply for a long time, Jack.

In 6th edition, if you rolled a 6 on the misfire chart for the Helblaster you'd get 30 shots at S5 at short range or 15 shots at S4 at long range, and the helblaster could fire normally the next round.

A roll of 1 or 2 would destroy the machine, which could be re-rolled thanks to the SSoA. (In the 6th edition, ANY D6 roll could be rerolled).

So, SSoA gave you a D3 of D6 re-rolls per turn, any unsused roll being wasted. And believe me, I can't think of anything surviving 30 S5 shot at -3 armour (with armour-piercing rule), especially not in combination with a softening of a cannon and a bunch of handgunners. Never left home to a game without a Great cannon, a Helblaster and 10 handgunners in games 1000p and up. The rest of the points usually went to a general and infantry supported by a unit of IC knights (which were Core at that time but at 0-1 restriction).

pkain762
15-08-2008, 21:10
@ ordomalleus

priests can't "cast" or "pray" or whatever you want to call it..... during the opponents magic phase.... it says in the army book prayers are cast just like bound magic items.... and if you reference that in the big red book.... bound items are cast in your own magic phase.... sorry to burst your bubble :)

kain

teos40k
16-08-2008, 02:27
Eh, I couldn't find the rule that specificly says if you have multiple weapons, you have to use the magical one in 7th edition rule book. Could you please tell me on which page the rule is written?

Poseidal
16-08-2008, 07:22
What would people say are the most useful choices of magic items for a Templar Grand Master?

Also, what size of knights should he be traveling with? (if any) and would they be better as inner circle, with/out a command?

Irisado
16-08-2008, 09:43
Poseidal: I haven't played much seventh edition Warhammer, but based on my experiences with previous editions, and the fact that I love fielding a Templar Grand Master to lead my Knights of the Blazing Sun, I'll try to give you some suggestions.

I tend to keep things simple with my Grand Master. He's a pivotal figure in my cavalry charge though, as without him my Knights would not be immune to psychology, hence I always give him a Holy Relic to protect him should he come up against particularly tough opposition.

For offence, I take the Sword of Power, since the additional strength bonus is useful should my Knights not break an enemy unit on the charge. That said, I'm not too convinced about this choice yet, as the whole idea of Knights is that you are supposed to break the enemy unit that you charge, and this is how my cavalry units have been successful in the past. The problem that I have is that a lot of the magic weapons are not that appealing, although the Sword of Fate could be useful if you plan to use your cavalry to charge a unit with a particular character who you really want your Grand Master to kill.

Another idea I have thought of, but I haven't tried it yet, is giving my Grand Master the Laurels of Victory. They are quite expensive, but they should enable your cavalry to break units on the charge more easily, and this is the objective that you want to achieve with cavalry, so I feel that they would definitely be worth experimenting with.

I field my Grand Master with Knights of the Blazing Sun upgraded to Inner Circle with Full Command. I also tend to field a fairly large unit of between eight and ten models. You want your Grand Master to be leading a powerful unit. It fits in terms of tactics and background that your Grand Master should lead the best cavalry force in your army.

I'm sure that Empire players who have played more games with the current rules will have more ideas, but I hope that I've given you a useful foundation.

Poseidal
16-08-2008, 12:41
One thing about the unit of 8, in 6th I had a unit of 8 but the 4 would add a rank bonus, now this is 5 will that become expensive?

The Laurels of Victory and Holy Relic take up the full magic item allowance, so maybe that will work?


Another one I used was Dawn armour + holy relic for a 1+ rerollable save and then a 4+ ward if those fail.

pkain762
16-08-2008, 14:00
@ teos40k you can use you hand weapon if you have one with your character instead of your magical weapon.... just as long as you don't get rid of it or upgraded it..... if you just add a magical weapon and keep the hand weapon that most people always have.... you can use that instead just look at your own profile to see what you have.... and then remember that in the first round of each combat you need to declare which item your fighting with.... you have to say i'm fighting with the hand weapon or i'm fighting with the sword of power..... and then you are stuck fighting with that weapon for the remainder of that combat

kain

sniperjolly
16-08-2008, 19:21
I was considering adding karl franz on a barded warhorse and ghal maraz in a unit of 5-9 IC Riksguard (fluffy, because they are his personal guard) that would go around beating the crap out of Heros, Wizards, and just about anything else that is terribly important, is this a good idea in 2000 points?

I have used warrior preists to bolster my magical defence before, and I am doing so now. With a scroll caddie and as many sigmarites I can stuff in my list, I have plenty of dispell dice, two dispell scrolls and half my army hates the enemy. I was considering taking a scroll caddie with the seal of distruction, to stop VC players spamming invocation of nekeh, or any other army spamming their nasty little spell that they use each turn.

Irisado
16-08-2008, 20:47
One thing about the unit of 8, in 6th I had a unit of 8 but the 4 would add a rank bonus, now this is 5 will that become expensive?

A unit of ten Inner Circle Knights with full command won't come cheap, and having the extra rank is somewhat debatable in any case, especially if you end up facing lots of War Machines (especially Repeater Bolt Throwers). By the time I've added characters to the unit though, I normally end up with six models in the front rank, so the extra frontage means I'll get quite a lot of attacks on the charge, and I should break most opponents. Now, I'm not saying this is full proof, and I've only used it once in seventh edition (it worked well enough in sixth edition though), but it has never failed me yet.


The Laurels of Victory and Holy Relic take up the full magic item allowance, so maybe that will work?

Yes, it's costly, but the chance of breaking a unit on the charge that the Laurels may give you seems too good to resist to me. I may try these for my next game, although I have no idea when that's going to be, as I'm too busy playing 40K with my Eldar at the moment.

pkain762
19-08-2008, 17:35
i tend to roll average at best when rolling to hit and wound with knights... so my fix for that is to put warrior priests in w/my knights.... that way hate usually breaks the unit i charge...... laurels of victory is awesome... definately worth bringing... doubling your wounds... for combat res, can't beat that

kain

gary0044187
21-08-2008, 06:27
so I have had limited success with my empire, 3-0 so far. however, my Chaos opponent has decided to field the stubburn banner (for chaos undivided) on our next battle. My total strategy up til now has been to weaken his force with guns then break them with a heavy strike from my main State troop force. with the Griffon Banner, unit standard, and outnumber my static res is usually 9+. However actual wounds inflicted by the unit are rarely over 1-2. So now, faced with a group of enemy units unlikely to break in combat (Banner grants stubburn, held by standard bearer) how would you suggest I defeat that?

keep in mind that I am likely to be facing heavy units of chaos warriors, possibly chosen, so locked in combat with them I doubt I will be able to output wounds fast enough to keep up with the ones he does.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-08-2008, 14:59
A couple of friends from my 40k gaming group have picked up Fantasy lately (Bretonnians, Khemri, Orcs). As an avid IG player, Empire sounds as it would be an interesting start to get into Fantasy too. Now the one thing that has always put me off was a game system relying very heavily or even being dominated by characters/monsters. Is this still the case with WFB?

What would be a good start for a balanced force (apart from the codex obviously)? I was thinking of some halberdiers (rule of cool), a detachment of musketeers, a couple of Great Swords and pistoliers and a mortar for starters. Any good?

Poseidal
21-08-2008, 15:17
One thing I've thought of (maybe someone else has covered it), but would a Battle Wizard on a horse work in a unit of Pistoliers?

As far as I know, they don't lose any of the advantages if the character joins them (though the character can't fire) and they aren't so good in combat any more, meaning they are more shooty.

Perhaps this is a way of getting the wizard into a good position while giving him some protection from being isolated?

gary0044187
21-08-2008, 17:38
A couple of friends from my 40k gaming group have picked up Fantasy lately (Bretonnians, Khemri, Orcs). As an avid IG player, Empire sounds as it would be an interesting start to get into Fantasy too. Now the one thing that has always put me off was a game system relying very heavily or even being dominated by characters/monsters. Is this still the case with WFB?

What would be a good start for a balanced force (apart from the codex obviously)? I was thinking of some halberdiers (rule of cool), a detachment of musketeers, a couple of Great Swords and pistoliers and a mortar for starters. Any good?
For some armies, characters are the clincher. not so with Empire. I use mine for leadership, magic, and BSB, that is it. To win with empire it is all about weakening the enemy (preferrably alot) before they get into combat with you and then using Static Combat resolution to win. my armies (I have only played empire 3 times so I am still not a master of it) are typically gunlines with enough troops in front to defend them. I use hills or buildings to provide me with the height to see over my other troops. Then I use the first 2-3 rounds to wittle down their force before they get to me.

for 1500 points I go with a Warrior Priest (general) and Battle Standard Bearer in a Greatswords unit (25-30 men) + Griffon Banner. Add in free company or Swordsmen Detachment of 12-10 men. then a big swordsmen unit with another detachment. Final infantry unit is a squad of flaggelents (poor performance, so I am removing them). 1 cannon, 20 gunners, 1 Shadow Wizard.

Irisado
21-08-2008, 18:48
Poseidal:

I don't think the Wizard would count as Fast Cavalry, so they may lose some of their advantages, but I would have to check the rules to be sure.

I'll check after dinner, providing somebody doesn't beat me to it of course ;).

I personally field my Wizards in units of Knights on a regular basis. This is not a tactic which fits in with conventional wisdom, nor am I saying that it's the best tactic out there, but it works well for me. I think that if you want to field mounted Wizards though, they are better off on their own, or in a unit of Knights, Pistoliers are just to fragile to be used to accompany a Wizard in my opinion. They are there to lure to the enemy, and to flee when the going gets tough. You don't want your Wizard to be fleeing at any stage of the battle if you can help it.

Poseidal
21-08-2008, 21:00
I've found the entry on page 70.

"Mounted Characters may join fast cavalry and move in the same manner as the unit, but don't benefit from any of the the special shooting rules"

The way I see this is no shoooting when marching or reforming, and still has the -1 bonus for moving and shooting.

Since it is a Wizard, he doesn't do any shooting so it looks fine so far..

Irisado
21-08-2008, 21:52
The Wizard wouldn't get the 360 degree fire arc either, but other than that I can't see a problem with doing this in terms of the rules either.

My concern is would you really want to? Pistoliers often take advantage of the feigned flight special rule, but if they don't rally and keep fleeing your Wizard will not be able to contribute in the magic phase, and will be wasted. It all seems a bit risky to me.

Kalec
22-08-2008, 03:47
Putting the wizard with outriders works much better. They shoot as far as most magic missiles so range isn't a big issue, and they don't flee nearly as much as pistoliers due to being move or shoot, so failing to rally is less of a problem.

Lord Solar: I would have to advise against greatswords. They don't have the power or durability to justify their cost and taking up a precious, precious special slot. Stubborn is great, and they need it with all the losing they will do against similar points of opponents. We need our special clots for our artillery, our better cavalry, and our fast cavalry, so overpriced swordsmen just can't compete.

Lord Solar Plexus
22-08-2008, 05:10
For some armies, characters are the clincher. not so with Empire. I use mine for leadership, magic, and BSB, that is it.


BSB? What is that?*

Anyways, that's pretty much what I figured. Is it a good idea to use two largish nlocks of halberdiers with two detachments (gunners + swordfighters) each, supported by some pistoliers, artillery and cavalry? Flagellants I do not like much (yet).

@kalec: Thanks! Without any practical experience at all, that is exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for!

*Ninja edit: Oh, there, standard bearer...

gary0044187
22-08-2008, 07:20
ehh, horse might be nice, but my friends dont play against me if I use cavalry, so I am having to come up with ways of winning without it.

I have used flaggelents a few times now and have not been really pleased with them. I am thinking for the points of that unit I can get a helblaster and another infantry unit. they do not break, but they dont really win combats ever either. of course I use them to give me time to pick apart the enemy army, and they might win more if supported by someone instead of getting left to die in their corner every time.


Lord Solar: I would have to advise against greatswords. They don't have the power or durability to justify their cost and taking up a precious, precious special slot. Stubborn is great, and they need it with all the losing they will do against similar points of opponents. We need our special clots for our artillery, our better cavalry, and our fast cavalry, so overpriced swordsmen just can't compete.

I agree with this also, I have found this to be true as well.

Poseidal
22-08-2008, 07:35
My concern is would you really want to? Pistoliers often take advantage of the feigned flight special rule, but if they don't rally and keep fleeing your Wizard will not be able to contribute in the magic phase, and will be wasted. It all seems a bit risky to me.
Wouldn't they rally automatically as part of the Fast Cavalry rules (the character benefits from the movement, just not the shooting)?

Outriders may be a better choice though, the reason for pistoliers is really moving into a better position to cast though.

Irisado
22-08-2008, 12:18
ehh, horse might be nice, but my friends dont play against me if I use cavalry, so I am having to come up with ways of winning without it.

Just out of interest, why don't they allow you to use cavalry? Having a policy of not using special characters, for example, is something that groups of friends have been known to use, but not allowing you to use cavalry seems very mean spirited and unfair to me. Empire cavalry aren't that scary after all.


Wouldn't they rally automatically as part of the Fast Cavalry rules (the character benefits from the movement, just not the shooting)?

Outriders may be a better choice though, the reason for pistoliers is really moving into a better position to cast though.

I like the idea of putting a Wizard in with Outriders, Kalec hit the nail on head with that suggestion.

On the subject of feigned flight, if you take a close look at page seventy of the main rules, you'll see that you don't automatically rally. The rule is that if you rally, Fast Cavalry reform as normal, but they can also move in the remaining moves section of that movement phase. Rallying Pistoliers isn't always a certainty though, which is why it would be better not to put him with the Pistoliers in my view.

Poseidal
22-08-2008, 12:33
On the subject of feigned flight, if you take a close look at page seventy of the main rules, you'll see that you don't automatically rally. The rule is that if you rally, Fast Cavalry reform as normal, but they can also move in the remaining moves section of that movement phase. Rallying Pistoliers isn't always a certainty though, which is why it would be better not to put him with the Pistoliers in my view.
Ah darn, misread that section. Oh well! I'll see what other units are useful.

gary0044187
22-08-2008, 18:55
Just out of interest, why don't they allow you to use cavalry? Having a policy of not using special characters, for example, is something that groups of friends have been known to use, but not allowing you to use cavalry seems very mean spirited and unfair to me. Empire cavalry aren't that scary after all.
before I played empire I played Brettonia. never lost with that army. so now I am not allowed to field cavalry until they are certain I can win without it. so far without cav, I have won 3-0. Thinking I might start throwing a few matches so that they dont stop playing with me altogether.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-08-2008, 06:02
Let's assume for a moment I would use detachments in my army (just kidding, they look like they're the bread and butter of any non-CAV Empire force). Let's also assume my opponent is a tack ahead of me in terms of experience and is gunning for the detachments themselves. Now if he attacks (and likely breaks) one, and perhaps even follows them, is there any way to deal with that except for a second line reserve unit? If I understand it correctly, I cannot charge the unit in the flanks because I can't see them, right?

On Greatswords: I can see that they use up valuable slots but it looks as if they could anchor a line quite well with some wizardry and flag (and a smallish detachment of their own perhaps). Good idea? Not so good? I mean, don't they have S5? Considering that I usually play Imperial Guard, S5 sound spretty badass...


before I played empire I played Brettonia. never lost with that army. so now I am not allowed to field cavalry until they are certain I can win without it. so far without cav, I have won 3-0. Thinking I might start throwing a few matches so that they dont stop playing with me altogether.

Before you do that, you should teach me how I can do it, too! :) What armies do you usually play against? Do you have a standard take-all comers list?

pkain762
23-08-2008, 17:21
anyone.... you ever use the franz? i think using the emperor in the higher point battles would be cool but what point lvl is he too much..... i think that he'd be too much in a 2000 pt lvl.... probably wouldn't use him till the 3000 lvl? right?

kain

Kalec
24-08-2008, 02:31
We have plenty of ways of keeping our guy from running away. Greatswords, even with S5, won't kill much more then swordsmen, and are going to rely on static CR to win combat. Swordsmen are much cheaper, and are core. S5 is good, but only if they get to use it.

If greatswords were S4 and T4 and had shields, I would consider them. As-is, they are simply too fragile and take up the wrong army slot to be worth it. They die just as fast as swordsmen in combat and don't offer enough to compensate.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-08-2008, 06:16
Too bad. I like their looks and the general concept.

What do you use your elite slots for in games up to 2k? Pistoliers sound good but cannon look like they're a must against monsters etc.

Poseidal
24-08-2008, 11:04
We have plenty of ways of keeping our guy from running away. Greatswords, even with S5, won't kill much more then swordsmen, and are going to rely on static CR to win combat. Swordsmen are much cheaper, and are core. S5 is good, but only if they get to use it.

If greatswords were S4 and T4 and had shields, I would consider them. As-is, they are simply too fragile and take up the wrong army slot to be worth it. They die just as fast as swordsmen in combat and don't offer enough to compensate.

I think the main advantage of Greatswords is Stubborn Ld 8 but they are still a bit premium compared with Swordsmen.

Kalec
24-08-2008, 16:53
Too bad. I like their looks and the general concept.

What do you use your elite slots for in games up to 2k? Pistoliers sound good but cannon look like they're a must against monsters etc.

I run lots of cavalry, and am sick of pistoliers doing nothing but march block, so outriders. Cannons are devastating when they hit, if they hit, and tend to attract more harpies and furies and other annoying little guys.If you can afford to defend them, then cannons are amazing.

Fun fact: outriders are just as good as hurting hydras and other T5 monsters as cannons within 24". If you don't need to worry about T6 or above guys, then cannons may not be needed.

Lord Solar Plexus
25-08-2008, 08:24
I run lots of cavalry, and am sick of pistoliers doing nothing but march block, so outriders.


Hmm. Pistoliers can move and shoot I gather. Aren't Outriders too static for being fast CAV? Could they be used to guard a cannon?



If you don't need to worry about T6 or above guys, then cannons may not be needed.

I've got no idea what to expect yet. I know I'll be up against Khemri, some type of Elves (the ones with the Sea Guard), O&G and Bretonnians on a regular basis.

Kalec
25-08-2008, 22:32
Hmm. Pistoliers can move and shoot I gather. Aren't Outriders too static for being fast CAV? Could they be used to guard a cannon?



I've got no idea what to expect yet. I know I'll be up against Khemri, some type of Elves (the ones with the Sea Guard), O&G and Bretonnians on a regular basis.

Pistoliers can move and shoot. And kill maybe one elf. Outriders have the wonderful 360 degree shooting arc for being fast cav, so they don't need to move much. Even with being unable to shoot after rallying they kill more then pistoliers, which is more important to me because I need them to handle units too dangerous to charge with knights, not stand in the way.

Against TK you can expect tomb scorpions, and maybe tomb swarms and carrion. The first two can come onto the field where ever they want, namely behind your war machines, while carrion can fly. The other 3 have fliers and their own war machines, but nothing that can hit you from behind like TK can.

gary0044187
26-08-2008, 03:29
Before you do that, you should teach me how I can do it, too! :) What armies do you usually play against? Do you have a standard take-all comers list?

I use greatswords for the fluff. they dont typically kill anything that a swordsman wouldnt (cus I have priest and bsb in the unit, this lowers the number of attacks the greatswords themselves make, especially since they strike last). Been fighting Chaos but this is the army I would use against anyone.

Priest of Sigmar w/ Shield Heavy and Speculum
BSB with FP and Griffon Standard
lvl 2 Grey Wizard (so few spells ever go off in a fight, this dude is just dispel dice) 1 dispel scroll

30 Swordsmen w/command
2 detachments 10 freecompany (these guys stay with parent unless I need them to bolster something else)

2x 10 Handgunners

30 Greatswords w/command + BSB, WP
2 detachments 10 Swordsmen (the freecompany and swordsmen detachments get placed with whichever parent I decide at the deployment phase, or sometimes get placed on their own)

Great Cannon

Helblaster Volley Gun

total 4 dispel, 4 power, try for 2 spells followed by a prayer.

army is 6-0-0 or 5-1-0 w-d-l depending on how you rule the Against the Horde battle we did where the other side insisted on going the extra turn (i got the points I needed for the win in the 8th turn, but he wanted to see my last soldier die, otherwise it would have been a draw).

For the greatswords, I do not remember the exact numbers but I think you could sub them out for the same number Swordsmen and another cannon.

If you start inside your deployment zone at least an inch back from the edge of it, infantry will take 3 rounds to cross the field to you. Cav can get to you in the second or first depending on spells cast. A dedicated shooter army might be tough, but I have yet to fight one so I do not know whether you have enough of an edge.

With the volley gun and cannon, it allways seems like luck decides if they give you their point value back. I keep my infantry close to the arty cus that seems to be where everyone wants to strike. I wait for the enemy to get close enough and then charge them. I try to give my guns enough time to weaken them first.

For enemies, I have faced Chaos and Orcs so far. Deamons are next but after how bad I beat Chaos, the Deamon player doesnt think he can win at all. I am interested in seeing if my friends will throw another shooty army at me to see if I can face that.

BTW- any of you vets if you see a flaw, I could use the warning now, I like to win my battles before the match through preperation and research.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-08-2008, 07:14
Looks pretty good to me (but then again I'm still a n00b). Are you satisfied with the results you get from the handgunners? They look pretty cool and I suppose as long as there are no enemy with lots of longer-ranged shooting they can be quite effective.

How many points is that list?

PeG
26-08-2008, 07:35
regarding which cav to field i find pistoliers good for marchblocking and also for shooting undead stuff like ghouls that doesnt have armour saves. They also do good against daemons that has the similoar problem. I guess they will also be nice against the new DE reverse ward save but havent tried it.

Outriders although move or shoot are also nice, especially with the HLR upgrade on the chanpion who has enough BS to actually hit something. I have been thinking about trying two units of these.

Frankly
26-08-2008, 16:37
I'm using outriders at the moment I find them to be a supreme fire platform. Their rate of fire destroys rank and file, + a HLR up grade puts pressure on low Toughness characters on turn one. Having that mush fire power in 2 units + units of handguns and SWMs gives you such an effective way to whittle dowm rank and file units, thus gving you advantages in static CRs that you can thim your core unit sizes down to 20 from 25 ... sharing up points for more units.

Kalec
26-08-2008, 16:58
Looks like a 1500 point list, though I haven't bothered to add everything up.

Yes, all of our warmachines are a bit of a crapshoot as to whether they do something or not. Great cannons are the best of the lot by far, with the best balance of power, price, and not blowing themselves up.

Outriders are good at whittling away ranks from RnF troops, but even better at shooting up frail, elite infantry like black guard and sword masters that we can't beat in combat. The only thing better then slaughtering a 400 point infantry block is making your opponent too afraid to use the block at all, and outriders excel at this. The HLR champ is a good option, but I prefer the repeater handgun. If only we had an entire unit armed with the long rifles...

snowcloak
30-08-2008, 15:01
Personally, I dont field a lot of cavalry. I like my infantry blocks and their detachments too much.

If Im playing a 2000 point game, I take a general, deck him out in full plate with an enchanted shield, give him a sword of battle, the white cloak and Van Horstmanns speculum. He now has a 2+ save, 5+ ward save, loads of attacks, and when he inevitably gets into contact with the opposing general, they'll start swapping stats.... Happy times.

I usually field a block of 20 of swordsmen, halberds and spears. each has a 10 man shooting unit as a detachment, as wells as a small 7 man free company to take the flanks. I have begun using outriders now, after I realized just how devastating 6 of them can be. 18 shots, bs4, s4 armour piercing, range 24". Nice. Especially since they are still fast cavalry.

I usually go with one cannon, a mortar and a unit of pistoliers as well, to have a well rounded force. Heroes usually number 2 wizards and a warrior priest. One wizard becomes a scroll caddy, the other I give a luckstone and ring of Volans.

And a helblaster to round of the rare slot. Since I have a warrior priest, I dont need to use up a rare slot for my 15 flagellants.... So if the battle is big enough, two helblasters.

RossS
01-09-2008, 21:39
When doing the big solid blocks thing, whats the opinion on dogs of war pikes? Specifically the Republican guard, 25 are about 90pts more than 50 empire spearmen (w/o shields) but come with heavy armour, ws4 striking first when charged with 24 attacks and a decent hero level character. I was thinking it'd make a nice centre and as the list has enough cheap troops I won't feel the loss of 25 more spears. Then again no detachments so losing out on one of the biggest strengths of the list.
Also, 1st post wooo.

Pikes are a pretty mediocre unit, and the Regiments of Renown in particular are a rotten choice (with the exception of Pirazzo's...but that's because of the stand and shoot option that that unit offer). Pikes are expensive and are vulnerable to shooting and heavy infantry/cavalry. Even if they can churn out a lot of (generally s3) attacks, they rarely do that much damage to anything that is even even remotely tough or armored. Ricco's are okay, but they are not cheap, and Ricco is another useless Regiment of the Renown character you don't want to have to pay for.

I don't think pikes work well in an Empire army (or any other army for that matter) I go with two beefy units of spearmen, flanked by detachments of swordsmen and arquebusiers. Just about anything has a hard time shifting these tercios. I do model them as pikemen though.

Mireadur
01-09-2008, 21:49
I dont think pikes are mediocre, sure they are overpriced since 7th edition but how in hell such unit would be mediocre?

RossS
02-09-2008, 03:03
If you hit a unit of pikemen with any unit that has toughness 4 or higher, has any sort of good armor save, or hits before they do, they will struggle. ASF striking elves, Orcs, dwarfs, Chaos Warriors, Empire Swordsmen...it's a pretty substantial list. Improbably enough, a solid unit of heavy cavalry can really give pikemen a good kicking. If you throw some Inner Circle knights at pikemen, its likely that the pikemen will be smashed apart.

Missile fire and magic can absolutely shred a unit of pikemen. I've been on the recieving end of a mortar barrage directed at my pikes, and it wasn't pretty. After the blast, what was once a regiment could be more accurately described as a "smear." For a unit that relies entirely on volume of attacks, the loss of effectives can be crippling.

This is not to say that pikes are useless. Opponents often attach a power to them that they don't deserve, and they can be nasty on ill-equipped, weedy troops. If you are facing elves, skaven, goblins and most types of human infantry, they will often do well.

All in all, they are serious investment, that can be dealt with with relative ease.

Walls
02-09-2008, 03:28
The biggest problem I seem to have is deployment. I am having a heck of a time figuring out how to deploy my line, especially using detachments. Any help at all would be awesome for this Empire newb.

Templar_Victorious
02-09-2008, 11:21
Simple really, use your parent and detachment unit to block routes where he can flank your army. Or if your knights are going that way, block main routes. It's really what you can do to outflank your enemy. Having a warmachine and some handgunners punishing the units that don't advance upon you can really incite the enemy to act the way you wish.