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Fay_Redd
30-05-2008, 11:47
about the LOS laser pointer, GW are bringing out with 5th ed, the idea of it is to quickly and easily see which units have line of sight to a target and which dont. it is a straight red beam so it is not bent or anything. i personally think its an awsome idea, it will stop plenty of arguments and will stop the stupid "roll a dice" rule. your opinions?

njfed
30-05-2008, 12:21
I have been using a small laser pointer I got at the dollar store for some time, as have many people.
There are cheaper options out there.
It is a great tool.

Hmmmnesss, do they have Pound Stores in the UK?

(To clairify, there are stores in the US called Dollar Stores. Everything sells for one dollar.)

Fay_Redd
30-05-2008, 12:23
they do indeed, i may have to check it out. but who can possibly resist a sniper scope design, ahhhhhh XD. *sarcasm*

Brother Loki
30-05-2008, 12:24
Yes. Not sure if they tend to sell laser pointers though. There was a media scare a while ago about people being potentially blinded by them being used as a weapon, and a lot of shops stopped carrying them. I'll have a look over the weekend if I remember.

Rynar
30-05-2008, 12:37
Alway remember kids, Flashlights can hurt people!

Atleast, that's what my guardsmen are hoping on each day ^^

I'll probably see first if it is realy nessecary, if it is usefull engough i'll buy one eventually.:cool:

Armilthuan
30-05-2008, 12:40
Yes, but only because off the crosshair. That is so cool.... ^^

tlronin
30-05-2008, 13:01
Alway remember kids, Flashlights can hurt people!

Nonono... flashlights don't hurt people, people hurt people. :p

Wish i bought one of those laserlights for 1 euro (I live in Europe), but I never had use for them up 'till now.

Lisiecki
30-05-2008, 13:03
Always planed on using dental floss my self.
Not as strange as it sounds, have your foe hold a peice to his models base, i hold mine to my base, if it touches, it touches.


about the LOS laser pointer, GW are bringing out with 5th ed, the idea of it is to quickly and easily see which units have line of sight to a target and which dont. it is a straight red beam so it is not bent or anything. i personally think its an awsome idea, it will stop plenty of arguments and will stop the stupid "roll a dice" rule. your opinions?

thewizard99
30-05-2008, 13:08
mmmm ok its a good idea but your going to get them abused.....alot. it wont take me 5 mins to swap out the led for a ultra bright one. enough of that, i still dont see the point in them, ok LOS, but i still get down to model level to see.

static grass
30-05-2008, 13:23
Always planed on using dental floss my self.
Not as strange as it sounds, have your foe hold a peice to his models base, i hold mine to my base, if it touches, it touches.


Trust me if people can't even agree on LOS using their own eyes to see if something has LOS then dental floss wont help. Unless you use it as a garrote.

Example

"The floss is bent!"
"It's not!"
"Its touching the building!"
*garrote*

I know people who claim if you can only see the power supply unit on a space marine then he cant been seen.

t-tauri
30-05-2008, 14:03
Not News or rumours. Moved to 40k general.

Whitehorn
30-05-2008, 14:08
Anyone in the UK.. Check out Aldi

I got an uber tape measure for 7. It has a laser sight, spirit level and tripod attachment.

Nerdgasm!

Colonel Jacka
30-05-2008, 14:30
Bugger me! :eyebrows:Are we getting to the idiot stage.:eyebrows: I will continue to use the "Mark One Eye Ball". :eek: Let's get real! It is a Game! :cheese:

Ambu
30-05-2008, 15:06
Used a laser pointer for a long time here. Was in a tourney several years ago and seen two people about nearly get in a fist fight over LOS and that one of them was slightly bending the stick, etc..... at which point a 3rd party observer went out to his car, got out his brief case and pulled out his presentaion pointer, tossed it to the guys telling them it couldn't be bent, them proceeded to tell them they were grown adults and this was a game so grow up. I LMAO then decided that was a hell of an idea to solve arguements to the gamers that take the game too seriously, went out and got a cheap one myself.

Funny part about the story was these two guys were very horrible players and the winner of that match had the only winning game between the two of them for the whole day :evilgrin:

Grey Seer Skretch
30-05-2008, 15:12
Bugger me! :eyebrows:Are we getting to the idiot stage.:eyebrows: I will continue to use the "Mark One Eye Ball". :eek: Let's get real! It is a Game! :cheese:

Actually, I think its the best idea in ages...ever tried working out a vitally contested LOS during a game of Necromunda (or cityfight for that matter) where there is absolutely no way in hell to get your head anywhere near eye level. I know for most things common sense is all you need, but I have to admit I don't think I could possibly get tired of being able to zap the other guy's models with a big red crosshair just before opening up on them lol!

Brother Loki
30-05-2008, 15:42
You've got to be a bit careful with the coty terrain right enough. Some of it's pretty spiky - you could lose an eye! ;)

gorgon
30-05-2008, 16:07
Actually, I think its the best idea in ages...ever tried working out a vitally contested LOS during a game of Necromunda (or cityfight for that matter) where there is absolutely no way in hell to get your head anywhere near eye level. I know for most things common sense is all you need, but I have to admit I don't think I could possibly get tired of being able to zap the other guy's models with a big red crosshair just before opening up on them lol!

Anyone who played 2nd ed 40K can vouch for the fact that sometimes you need a tool to help with LOS. Those of you who don't believe this...just wait and see. ;)

Back in the day, I used a string. But a laser pointer is more sporting, I suppose. There's probably the potential for unscrupulous types to mark string or floss to measure distances.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-05-2008, 16:15
Anyone who played 2nd ed 40K can vouch for the fact that sometimes you need a tool to help with LOS. Those of you who don't believe this...just wait and see. ;)


I'd put it a little differently. Anyone who have used it before can tell you that true LoS is a bloody stupid idea and I'm seriously puzzled as to why it was possibly considered a good idea to return it.

Expand the size catagory system a little and you wouldn't remove 95%+ of the LoS arguments right there. Instead of creating a whole lot more.

Tymell
30-05-2008, 16:22
I think it's a good idea personally. I know plenty of people have been using them for a while, and I'd been planning on getting one as soon as I move and get back into gaming more.

So not going to make me praise GW as amazing geniuses, but a good thing to incorporate nonetheless :) And yes, you could shine them in people's eyes. But you can get them elsewhere no problem, and it's not like there's nothing else GW-related you could use to hurt people with.

Doctor Thunder
30-05-2008, 16:23
I think the laser pointer is a terrible idea, and if any of my opponent's break one out, I'll politely ask them to put it away.
Players should be good enough sports to be able to quickly determine and agree upon LOS without having to break out a tool that will slow the game down.

Whitehorn
30-05-2008, 16:37
I got this a few months ago, with much rejoice.

Now seeing as 5th edition is pushing a lasersight, it has just become ever more useful! We joked about my tape measure being useful for LOS.. kinda prophetic I thought

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/2867_4950.htm

Tymell
30-05-2008, 17:22
I think the laser pointer is a terrible idea, and if any of my opponent's break one out, I'll politely ask them to put it away.
Players should be good enough sports to be able to quickly determine and agree upon LOS without having to break out a tool that will slow the game down.

1.) How much is doing that really going to slow down the game? A few seconds? And it's not like it has to be done very often anyway :eyebrows:

2.) It's nothing to do with being a "good sport" or not, sometimes it's just really hard to tell if there's line of sight or not.

3.) It's not relevant to the laser pointer itself. Indeed, the laser pointer in my experience is considerably faster than a tape measure or some other form of checking.

The_Outsider
30-05-2008, 17:24
*Shines into opponents yes who collapse screaming in agony*

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

(Shamelessly stolen from a post by another member a while ago).

My personal opinion is: Humans eyes have variable focus and thats good enough.

Besides, if its at a GW store there are usually enough people lingering about so you can go "excuse me, but does that missile launcher look like it can see them orks?" and have said 3rd party call it.

All games should have a 3rd party present to help quell such disagreements.

junglesnake
30-05-2008, 17:52
I seem to be one of the few that doesn't like this idea overall. I say this because I have seen this done and the laser sight creates a problem of its own.

For example someone firing a battlecannon was firing it through a very small window which whilst could have given the commander a line of sight was not big enough to fit the shell through! Yeah there is the cover save but the window was not big enough full stop!

The terrain was intervening and so the Leman Russ was literally firing through the terrain to hit its target and this was the only line of sight.

Not realistic. And then there are the facts that most troops would not take on a shot like that with a basic weapon whose chance of hitting are very slim. It encourages automatic fluffed weapons to become snipers.

40kdhs
30-05-2008, 19:08
You don't need a red beam to tell you whether you see another model or not. You can use your tape measure or your eyes to do that. Please do not point red beam laser to your friend eyes.

I hope GW has a WARNING LABEL on it.

Brimweave
30-05-2008, 19:38
I hope GW has a WARNING LABEL on it.

They have made it so that only people over the age of 16 can buy it I believe. It however means people under the age of 16 can still use it (like cigarettes, except you have to be 18).

linvus232
30-05-2008, 20:03
I can't see it doing any harm, I know people who use laser pointers now. I doubt you'd need to break it out that often (LoS disputes that would be resolved by such a thing are not all that common, at least round here), so would a GW-brand arbitrator of such things really be worth the outlay?

carlisimo
30-05-2008, 20:06
I think it's fine. Adds a bit of fun to the games anyway... and as for the safety, given the short distances involved they could just use a mini-flashlight anyway, like a LED through a focusing lens. Lasers don't diffuse over long distances but that's not important in this application.

It will work well if the rules are clear on what counts as LOS. Of course, if the rules were clear, you probably wouldn't need a pointer... but it IS nice to have an 'independent arbitrator' in the guise of a tool. The real question is... where do you measure from, and where do you measure to? Center of base to center of base? If you can see the tip of an Eldar helmet, does that count? What if you can see someone's bayonet, or a pointing finger? In such cases, the point from which you measure will be important too.

I hope the rules are written so if you do have LOS to a unit, they have LOS to you.

Lame Duck
30-05-2008, 20:14
I hope the rules are written so if you do have LOS to a unit, they have LOS to you.

How could they not? The only thing I can think of is if they're turned round...hmm.

Marius Xerxes
30-05-2008, 20:28
I think the laser pointer is a terrible idea, and if any of my opponent's break one out, I'll politely ask them to put it away.
Players should be good enough sports to be able to quickly determine and agree upon LOS without having to break out a tool that will slow the game down.

I woudlnt go as far to say id ask them to put it away, but im surely not looking forward to lil kids running around with them shinning them into peoples eyes since they will prolly be laying around everywhere.

Or go here and get one that not only points your LOS, but will melt the top half of the fig at the same time. :evilgrin:

http://www.dragonlasers.com/index.html

(Note this is a joke, and I do not actually encourage anyone to destroy anyone elses property)

Ravenous
30-05-2008, 20:34
Yes. Not sure if they tend to sell laser pointers though. There was a media scare a while ago about people being potentially blinded by them being used as a weapon, and a lot of shops stopped carrying them. I'll have a look over the weekend if I remember.

Thats why you get the ones with emeralds so they can blind in under 10 seconds :D

This topic was brought up a while ago at my club and we determined that the only people that use lasers are anal as hell. Which thinking back to all the people Ive played with lasers is absolutely true and in this edition Im guessing its going to be no different.

The real question is: Do you really need to waste $10 on something you dont need?

George Dorn
30-05-2008, 20:56
Don't anyone tell GW their laser pointer is cheaper than Aldi's, or the 6 price tag will become an administrative error by the time it's on the shelves.

Once the novelty has worn off, people will be more sensible about their new toys. Folk at my wargames club used to have a miniature periscope for model's eye view, now that WAS cool.

A.S.modai
30-05-2008, 21:00
I seem to be one of the few that doesn't like this idea overall. I say this because I have seen this done and the laser sight creates a problem of its own.

For example someone firing a battlecannon was firing it through a very small window which whilst could have given the commander a line of sight was not big enough to fit the shell through! Yeah there is the cover save but the window was not big enough full stop!

The terrain was intervening and so the Leman Russ was literally firing through the terrain to hit its target and this was the only line of sight.

Not realistic. And then there are the facts that most troops would not take on a shot like that with a basic weapon whose chance of hitting are very slim. It encourages automatic fluffed weapons to become snipers.

I disagree. As a veteran of the 101st abn (1/502nd) That is very realistic. There was recently an investigation against U.S. troops because of a huge jump in % of headshots to Iraqi combatants vs. previous wars. They thought that U.S. troops were executing Iraqis. They found out, that during combat that was many times the only thing exposed. With Eotech, ACOG, and others being standard equipment, the soldiers are taking shots like that and being very successful. Yes we are THAT good.

Wraithbored
31-05-2008, 02:27
Ah yes the laser pointer of doom, because the worst rules problem in 40k were always arguments if I have LoS to a particular model :rolleyes:

Chem-Dog
31-05-2008, 03:03
Bugger me! :eyebrows:Are we getting to the idiot stage.:eyebrows: I will continue to use the "Mark One Eye Ball". :eek: Let's get real! It is a Game! :cheese:

This is all well and good until the Mk II Bionic Eye is required because of some overzealous spiky balcony action in a COD battle.

Now I demand a Boltgun shaped Miniature case so I can pretend to hose people with blessed death as I walk to a game (with the Hand Flamer airspray tucked into a pocket for close encounters) . Obviously the marker light would have to clip onto the outside.

Actually, this little doodad could be the ultimate accessory for the Hobbyist, think about the cool "Themed" Markerlights different armies could have!

PS, why is there a 4 smiley limit? And why does it count quoted smileys?!

BladeWalker
31-05-2008, 03:11
My wife and I started using a laser pointer more than 2 years ago when she was on bed rest (pregnant with our son). She was supposed to move as little as possible but still wanted to play battles so she used a pointer I took from a laser level I had laying around to show me what squads to move, where to move them, and who was shooting. I admit I spoiled her, but we had to get some games in!

After those battles using a laser for line of sight and other pointing just became part of how we play. I might get one of the GW ones as a nostalgic gift for my gamer girl, too bad they didn't come out in time for Mothers Day here in the US. :D

chromedog
31-05-2008, 07:30
I already have a laser pointer, and since they're restricting the availability of laser devices here in light (ka-ching!) of recent events involving tools using lasers to dazzle pilots near airports, I really don't think they'll be selling that many here.

I also have a periscope somewhere in the cupboard (they're really not hard to make) that I used to use with my wargaming stuff back in the late 80s (modern HO scale), but I haven't used it in over 12 years.

I can't trust memebers of my local club to sit on chairs properly, let alone NOT shine these things into each others' eyes (I'm a 'club official') so I really don't think I'll be seeing any more of them anytime soon.

Fay_Redd
31-05-2008, 09:04
hmmm all very interesting opinions here people. more against than for, i can see the problems with it in the hands of younger gamers.

@brimweave heres hoping thats true, will stop a lot of problems.

i can see this being a great addition to gaming accessories in the hands of a mature person who wont flash it into eyes, if any kid does that to me ill take it off them and keep it. till they say sorry ofcourse.

junglesnake
01-06-2008, 12:03
How could they not? The only thing I can think of is if they're turned round...hmm.

Or if you kill the only models that can be seen . . . . .


I disagree. As a veteran of the 101st abn (1/502nd) That is very realistic. There was recently an investigation against U.S. troops because of a huge jump in % of headshots to Iraqi combatants vs. previous wars. They thought that U.S. troops were executing Iraqis. They found out, that during combat that was many times the only thing exposed. With Eotech, ACOG, and others being standard equipment, the soldiers are taking shots like that and being very successful. Yes we are THAT good.

But is the shot to hit ratio?

The real life documentaries that have been on here in the UK have only really shown basic infantry and they seem to blaze away whilst one or two try to snipe.

Apart from that if you can see a very small part of someone who is to say you spot them?

The biggest issue I have is like I said - shells not fitting through terrain in between the weapon and the target etc.

I prefered area effect it is faster simpler and does not require an argument over whether you can shoot at a unit because you can see a grot's hand waiving out from beside a wall.

Petrov_101
01-06-2008, 12:49
LOS is a pain in the neck. If 40K were a skirmish game with perhaps only a dozen figures per side then it would be tolerable. With some IG armies exceeding 100 figs, checking LOS is going to slow the game down.

Talk about *fixing* a non-existent problem... If they spent more time writing a real rulebook instead of inventing new rules 40K would be in much better shape than it is today.

Bunnahabhain
01-06-2008, 15:17
I hope the rules are written so if you do have LOS to a unit, they have LOS to you.

Unfortunately, they're not like that.
With a unit partially out of sight, anyone who can see at least one member of the target unit can fire at them, and casualties are not limited to line of sight, ie one man can be seen, squad gets hit by lots of fire, all 10 die. However, for firing back, the one man sticking out of cover can see, but the rest of his squad can't.
It is indeed magically you can see me through the wall, but I can't see you...


I disagree. As a veteran of the 101st abn (1/502nd) That is very realistic. There was recently an investigation against U.S. troops because of a huge jump in % of headshots to Iraqi combatants vs. previous wars. They thought that U.S. troops were executing Iraqis. They found out, that during combat that was many times the only thing exposed. With Eotech, ACOG, and others being standard equipment, the soldiers are taking shots like that and being very successful. Yes we are THAT good.

No problem with that for infantry using small arms.

However, a tank using ordnance is a slightly different matter, especially as in 40k, the aiming procedure seems to be based on the tank crew playing twister, and not actually using the sights, or anything silly like that....

Colonel Jacka
01-06-2008, 22:06
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry .45 caliber miracle. And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

Bunnahabhain,

Noted the sig! A quote from one of my favorite movies! ZULU! :D DADADADADUNDUNDADA! :D

Thrax
02-06-2008, 07:51
Actually a tool we have used is a laser level which projects a red line the length of the table from shooter to target. It helped immensely for checking area terrain LOS blockage, but now it may not me as useful.

Condottiere
02-06-2008, 08:15
We use the Mark One eyeball and string, but that could change now.

nightgant98c
02-06-2008, 11:59
I think it's a good idea. It's just as quick and easy as getting someone to come and take a look and say what they think. I doubt I'd buy the GW one, but it's a good idea all the same.

Thylacine
02-06-2008, 15:15
I like laser pointers, I have been using them for over three years now and they stop all the LoS arguments. Gone are the days where an opponent stonewalls me by saying that I can't target a unit or model because I don't have LoS.

I have found that the guys that complain the most over people using of laser pointers are the ones that try to bully their way through a game but telling you what they think you can and can't see. I love to see them get all hot and bothered, as once the model is lit up, their argument it gone.

I had one tool in a recent tournament try to tell me that I was bending my laser to unfairly target his models! This same guy is one of the worst offenders for 'you can't target my model because you can't see it', well now I can.

Thylacine:chrome: