PDA

View Full Version : Unit most ruined by an army update.



Gobbo Lord
30-05-2008, 21:11
This is an odd one. Currently reassembling some old greenskin regiments etc and as i trimmed yet more night goblins off of the old regiments it got me thinking how many people have had to do this and with what models.

Two examples i have:

6th edition: a unit of 42 multipart, large style night goblins with six netter upgrades full command and spears, fully painted and based. Have now become for 7th edition a unit of 30 night goblins with spears nets and full command yet still are too many points to use effectively. I know spears are not well favoured for these troops any more but it used to be the only way you could equip them. I will use the spares for conversions, animosity markers etc.

6th edition: a unit of 12 Orc boar boys with full command and a big boss on boar. These troops became way to expensive in 7th. Luckily only the front rank was painted and now the big boss has joined a unit of boyz on foot whilst i have retained a unit of six boar boyz with full command (the other five are on ebay) i know this unit is useless now but they are so nicely painted i have to keep them.

So lets hear any other stories people have about trimming or keeping of units made worse with a new army book, 4th to 5th, 5th to 6th, 6th to 7th, what has really hurt your units, were they painted up and looking good only to need more troops, different options etc...

TheDarkDuke
30-05-2008, 21:14
I can't see anything worse off now then Reaves for HE... they were a slightly overcosted, rarely used unit before there update.... now they are overcosted and outclassed by every other special option for them... even with the additional special slot. I guess a close second would be Silverhelms as they are now special barely less points then the far superior Dragon Princes.

mrtn
30-05-2008, 21:21
Well, of course there's the units that was removed completely. Mummies, ungor skirmishers, Doom Wheel, et cetera.

I recently bought a big unit of old metal gors with HW and shield. That's a bad combo recently, especially since the beastherd box contains too many gors as is, and too few ungors, and that AHW is vastly better than shields.
I am using this unit as marauders.

snurl
31-05-2008, 05:16
Dwarf thunderers:
5th edition, Move or shoot. Used crossbows instead, due to longer range.
6th edition, Now Move and shoot. Decided to try them. Have a regiment of 30 (metal). Very useful for spoiler attacks.
7th edition, Back to Move or shoot. I don't use them too often anymore, crossbows have better range.

cornixt
31-05-2008, 05:43
Funny how you mention Night Goblins but not normal Goblins. They have become progressively worse in each edition. Absolutely no point in taking them at all now, they are so expensive for their (lack of) effectiveness

Dranthar
31-05-2008, 06:02
Funny how you mention Night Goblins but not normal Goblins. They have become progressively worse in each edition. Absolutely no point in taking them at all now, they are so expensive for their (lack of) effectiveness

Well they're still a cheap 4+ save and can take short bows on top of that to target large creatures or units on hills, so I wouldn't say there's NO point in taking them.

Other than that, yeah, they're not too hot right now. :(

Xaskus
31-05-2008, 07:42
Daemon Princes in the new Daemons Army Book. They don't cause terror, you have to buy wings, can only be level 2, have to pay out the **** to get gifts and lores, can't even get 100 points of gifts. All in all you might as well pay an extra couple hundred points and get a fully kitted out Greater Daemon than an below average Daemon Prince.

Gobbo Lord
31-05-2008, 13:44
Funny how you mention Night Goblins but not normal Goblins. They have become progressively worse in each edition. Absolutely no point in taking them at all now, they are so expensive for their (lack of) effectiveness

The reason i dont mention them is i agree with you. As Night Goblins are superior to normal Goblin infantry many (me included) Orc and Goblin Players dont use them. The reason the Night goblins cropped up is because I (and many other Orc and Goblin players) had large units of them with spears. and a few netters (you equipped single goblins within the unit with them and they were one use only). Then all of a sudden spears weren't a good option, and nets were a unit upgrade only suitable to hand weapons. All of a sudden an entire unit (army if you were unlucky) was too expensive for what it was, even if you trimmed it down a bit.

The thunderers unit is an example of what im looking for

Cenyu
31-05-2008, 13:59
7th edition, Back to Move or shoot. I don't use them too often anymore, crossbows have better range.

And for the difference of 3 points hit less often and with less armour penetration. Hardly what I would call "most ruined unit".

moose
31-05-2008, 14:08
I think ratling guns take the award for going from insanely amazing, to a near waste of points. But I still love them anyway!

yorch
31-05-2008, 14:11
As xaskus said, the new daemon prince.

For the same cost of 6th edition (300 points), he loses:

-1 Point of Leadership (having now the same leadership as a herald)
-Lost terror... Now it only causes fear
-Lost wings... you have to pay for them (20 points), from the points available to magic items
-Only magic level 2 (before you could buy him 4 levels)
-Only 7 daemonic gifts available, if you want to have more, you have to pay 35 points wich give no benefit, only the acces to another 5 gifts
-Now he can only have 75 points in daemonic gifts, instead of 100

For example, a winged magic level 2 deamon prince of tzeentch costs 435 points. An unequipped Lord of Change costs 450, and he has terror, better leadership, knows all tzeentch spells, +1W (so he gains unit strength 5), +1S +1T and only loses 2WS and 1I...:wtf:

D-Archangel
31-05-2008, 14:25
not really what you guys had in mind, but.....

my brother's HE army.

he doesn't play anymore, so he gave me his army. but he modeled all units to be 4x4 ranked up, complete with hand-crafted movement trays, everything lovingly painted and modeled.

suffice to say I need new movement trays and they're hell to rank up 5 wide.

Revlid
31-05-2008, 14:31
I think ratling guns take the award for going from insanely amazing, to a near waste of points. But I still love them anyway!

Err?

Against any army with less shooting than a gunline they're still incredibly formidable in a SAD army.

Daemon Prince takes the cake.

Urgat
31-05-2008, 14:33
Fanatics? Their effectiveness against heavy cav (what's they've been created to fight against, heh) has been cut by half with the new book, but their price hasn't changed one bit, amusingly enough.

Jagosaja
31-05-2008, 15:50
Zombies, for sure. OK, the don't strike last now and are a little cheaper, but have WS, S and T decreased, and most importantly they cannot pursue. Nearly useless.

And I must say, Silver Helmes. Everyone uses Dragon Princes instead.

Dark_Mage99
31-05-2008, 18:45
Zombies are far from useless.

Daemon Prince get's my vote: only appears worthwhile as a second, cheaper Lord choice.

Bertolac
31-05-2008, 18:59
The Great Undead Rift. My army loses its chariots, skeleton archers, mummies, catapult and mounted tomb king (yes, the last one was a bit much).

Condottiere
31-05-2008, 20:36
I think it must be Silver Helms. The High Elves went from a Cavalry army to an infantry one overnight. And they prefer Dragon Princes with better AS, 2 attacks and magic standard to Silver Helms. A lot of ponies were stabled after the new book came out.

ferda
31-05-2008, 21:33
Snotling bases.

Rioghan Murchadha
31-05-2008, 22:20
Dire wolves? Ld3, no longer count as core, 1 attack, lost slavering charge, S3, T3 no save. Balls.

Fredmans
31-05-2008, 22:26
Knights of the White Wolf, say no more...

/Fredmans

gd09garett
31-05-2008, 22:55
Empire Pistoliers- Had an entire army based on numerous infantry [to absorb charges] followed by that wonderful Pistoliers flank charge. 2 str 4 armour piercing attacks down to a single str 3. Awful. Of course worse was my first Empire army which had numerous Kislev units [mutliple Winged Lancers and Horse Archers, plus a War Wagon], some Ogres, dwarves and halflings [I liked the variety of the Empire army] all of which vanished in one fell swoop.

Volker the Mad Fiddler

Jack of Blades
31-05-2008, 23:10
You just can't beat the new Daemon Princes in terms of sheer useless ineffective overpricedness and, considering the old ones weren't even adequate either, this is an eyebrow-raiser.

But if they ''reserved'' them as the Greater Daemons of the Warriors of Chaos, then I'd be most pleased. If they're the same as they're in the Daemons of Chaos I'm just going to shrug and ask myself why GW did it.

Imo, you should have the option of fielding Daemon Princes as Exalted Daemons, where they are slightly worse than Chaos Lords but cheaper, wizards and all that, while you can also make them a bit worse than Greater Daemons but for a much cheaper price, or you can make them more powerful than Greater Daemons, at a you-get-what-you-pay-for ratio of power.

thenurgler
01-06-2008, 01:24
I really don't understand the reason people think silverhelms are now awful. The only reason people took them in 6th was because they were a core choice (or they already had a Dragon Princes unit).
Now they are a solid 7 points cheaper, that is not by any means a minuscule amount. Yes most people will probably shell out for the Princes two attacks but if you need large blocks of knights for US or rank purposes then grab the silver helms.

As for Dire Wolves, they got cheaper and they still get rid of ranks. That's all you need for such a cheap unit. How often did that S3 really help them kill something?

Gorog Irongut
01-06-2008, 08:47
While the demon prince may be ineffective, he's nowhere near as ineffective pointwise as rangers became with the most recent dwarf book. By removing the forester rule, rangers are now left on the shelf more than not.

blurred
01-06-2008, 09:10
Pretty much every unit in the new OnG book took a beating. Orc boyz, savage orc boar boyz and trolls are possibly the only units which got better. Regular boar boyz, snotlings and goblins (both) are almost redundant now.

But yeah, the new daemon prince takes the cake for the most useless piece of crap ever.

ehlijen
01-06-2008, 12:47
Yes, foresters is a loss for rangers, but I believe rangers gained a large amount of equipment options by being an upgrade to several units compared to what they were before. So they are still useful as quarrellers who set up last but won't stop you from possibly gaining the +1 for first turn for example. Hardly worth the scout rule, but it's still useful.

Shimmergloom
01-06-2008, 17:40
Pretty much every unit in the new OnG book took a beating. Orc boyz, savage orc boar boyz and trolls are possibly the only units which got better. Regular boar boyz, snotlings and goblins (both) are almost redundant now.

But yeah, the new daemon prince takes the cake for the most useless piece of crap ever.

In both the moves from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th, OnG and Empire were hurt badly.

From 5th to 6th OnG lost spider riders, forest goblins, ogres, small lobbas, orc crews for war machines, orc crossbows, night goblin clubbers and squig hopper units and that doesn't mention all the weapon choices lost(although every army suffered this). Empire lost a whopping 10 units, foot knights, kisvlev horse archers, winged lancers, halflings, dwarfs, ogres, war altar, war wagon, steam tank and outriders. And while alot of that came back as DoW, that is still rares and who wastes rares on halfings?

So people found themselves with units and units worth of troops that were worthless.

Then from 6th to 7th nearly everything in the OnG army went up to ridiculous points values meaning that mixed army players such as myself find ourselves losing 50-100 models per army while all gobbo players could often lose close to 150+ models.

And empire players now see units such as white wolves and ulric themed armies gone down the tubes.

And of course all the chaos players who can find that all their units from the other 2 powers are now unplayable meaning multiple units are useless to them since they have to pay 3 times over to get all 3 armies working and painted and at these prices who is willing to pay 3x? Instead you'll see alot of chaos stuff on ebay.

Gobbo Lord
01-06-2008, 17:57
Its strange isnt it. With the orcs and goblins it is almost garanted that current players wouldnt buy new models as they suddenly found they had far too many with the new book. And the units with expensive models were made so unfieldable for their points (boar boyz) that the chance of people buying them decreased exponentially.

Shimmergloom
01-06-2008, 18:31
Thing is I think I along with most greenskin players would have bought copious amounts of plastic savages and new boar boyz and the new black orcs look great(I bought some just cause maybe in the future they will be worth it again) but aren't worth fielding in most cases.

so what did GW do? They made new night goblins and spider riders that come much cheaper in the bfsp set and tons of character models and a new giant that nearly every army can use now.

Zethal
01-06-2008, 18:36
Most 7th edition armies have a unit like this.

Silver helms, moving to special, and now useless.
Black Orcs, animosity quelling got screwed over, and they don't even do it anymore.
Helblaster Vollygun, now rolls to hit
Dire Wolves, no longer core, lost charge bonus.

Chiron
01-06-2008, 18:49
Hellblaster Volley Gun...

Havock
01-06-2008, 22:12
Going by the GYB-list... Marauder horsemen :p

Sir_Turalyon
01-06-2008, 23:38
Men-at-arms; some Bretonnian players were ranting for years after armybook came out, myself included.

New Hordes of Chaos list hardly counts, it will be replaced in just few month.

NallTWD
02-06-2008, 00:29
-Dwarf rangers losing foresters
-High elves across the board
-Middenheim empire
-Mounted Yeomen in Bretonnia. Cheap S4 charges that move no faster than knights? Who cares?
-The army's in first edition but Leadheblchers. One misfire killing two ogres? Forget it!

soots
02-06-2008, 03:42
This is an easy one.

Necromancers.

5th edition.
WS7 S5 A5 I7
Pick any spell from necromancy deck. Recast any spell from Necromancy deck. Massive weapon options.

feeder
02-06-2008, 03:53
-High elves across the board

Are you kidding? Except Silver Helms, pretty much everything else got much, much better.

It's not a unit, but the OnG magic items list really got screwed over. Now we have a handful of items that appear in every list, and the rest are mostly stinkers.

klinktastic
02-06-2008, 05:57
Who wrote the OnG book? They should be castrated and removed from the gene pool! That book took a horrible army in 6th and made it just as bad. Every army, starting from when Wood Elves got their new book to the Demon's release, has gotten much better. What happened with OnG? The development team must be huff paint...

tiass
02-06-2008, 08:23
As of late Many units has been cut to the edge of uselessness, or at least to the point that they have hard time to make the cut against other, and better choices.

Questing knights and white wolf instance

But also units like the necromancer will almost never be used to the same exstend as before, must say that my 4 necromancer models will never take the field at the same time, as will the spirit hosts close to never see my (starting) line-up.

But thats how the game works, some units stop working and some others will suddenly make sence, or just be replaced by a new unit, thats how now models are sold.

note: IMO, none can compeet with the sheer uselessness of a deamonprince

Chiron
02-06-2008, 09:02
Ooh, thought of three good ones

War Wagon, Doomwheel, Skaven Demon Prince (forget its official name)

Embalmed
02-06-2008, 09:37
My vote goes to the DP, inexplicably expensive for what he does, I almost get the feeling the cost is a typo, why does he cost significantly more than a vampire or a tomb king, who in my opinion are better?

Gobbo Lord
02-06-2008, 12:53
All good solid contenders so far guys. Somewhat lacking in the personal touch, more a factual analysis of why certain units have become less than there former selves. No tales of tears as you put your recently finished unit of mummies in the cabinent, the new vampire counts half of the undead army book in your hands. Or buying a dogs of war unit two weeks before they become void.
Keep it up...

enyoss
02-06-2008, 13:18
No tales of tears as you put your recently finished unit of mummies in the cabinent, the new vampire counts half of the undead army book in your hands.

Fair enough... how about Dwarf swivel guns and flame throwers ;). I ended up making up rules for those around 1994-1995, as I was determined to use them in the `new' 4th edition book.

Really though, I think Silverhelms were a little bit shafted by the 6th-7th transition. It had to be done (well, I guess they could have given them WS5, but never mind), but it still leaves me with plenty gathering dust, and I wasn't even an all cavalry player in the first place.

Cheers,

enyoss

Angry Lawyer
02-06-2008, 16:44
On the flip side of the coin, Sea Guard went from possibly the biggest crime against Wargaming to something quite special.

-Angry Lawyer

Tasniik
03-06-2008, 07:44
I am pretty new to WFB could some one explain all of these blunders that people have been talking about? I keep hearing things about Dragon Armour, the Vampire Counts, Orcs and Goblins sucking, what gives? I only recently bought my first army books, being VC, DoC, and Dwarfs, is there anything i need to know about these guys and other armies?

lilljonas
03-06-2008, 08:04
I am pretty new to WFB could some one explain all of these blunders that people have been talking about? I keep hearing things about Dragon Armour, the Vampire Counts, Orcs and Goblins sucking, what gives? I only recently bought my first army books, being VC, DoC, and Dwarfs, is there anything i need to know about these guys and other armies?

A lot of it is streamlining. The 4th edition books simply had a lot more choices overall, for all armies. It was not balanced at all, but it was fun and varied. Orcs had what, twice as many unit choices as they have now? Also, a ton of monsters, which could be either fielded as mounted monsters or just marching around by themselves. So all those mentions of old units that suddenly disappeared are due to that.

If you are a new player, you are not affected at all. These are complains of veterans who spent lots of time and lots of money making units for their armies, only to find out later on that they are either much worse than when they got them, or simply not fieldable. It's not relevant if you are just learning 7th edition.

Braad
03-06-2008, 08:06
For me its snotlings.
I don't like to complain about army updates, cause sometimes stuff just happens, but I must say, since the rules changed my use of these little guys went from near 100% to near 0%.
I think just giving them the current swarm rules (with extra wounds for lost combat res.) would have been just fine and would have put their use to 50%. They were way too good at holding up units of, say, knights. Now, they are just too bad.

NakedBarbarian
03-06-2008, 08:12
Marauder horsemen - for what you get they simply don't belong in the special section.

I hope the new book puts them back in core

snurl
03-06-2008, 09:03
All good solid contenders so far guys. Somewhat lacking in the personal touch, more a factual analysis of why certain units have become less than there former selves. No tales of tears as you put your recently finished unit of mummies in the cabinent, the new vampire counts half of the undead army book in your hands. Or buying a dogs of war unit two weeks before they become void.
Keep it up...

OK- Dwarf spearmen. Metal. Painted. Out of action since 6th edition book.
Squats. Plastic and metal. Painted. Out of action since '98.

Note: In order to do my part to reduce the amount of whining on these forums, I will never mention these two items again.

the_orc
03-06-2008, 11:10
Snotling Bases:
Immun to psychology and stubborn at leadership 4. - As long as they were unbreakable they were useful as a tar pit. But now: They have to accept every charge. And since their leadership is so weak they get nearly always broken. Even a BSB does not really help you.

The only thing that is worse is squig hoppers on a table with not much terrain.
You move 3D6" which on average is slower than the 14"+ of most cavalry units. The only thing your opponent needs to do is place his unit between 12-14" away from you and you must move in the other direction in the next round or you get ***.

On average you won't reach the other cavalry if you try. So you get charged in the next round. You must accept the charge, since you are immun to psychology. T3 without save, means that pretty much everything, that stands in the front rank will be wiped out (even by light cavalry) so you loose that combat round quite high, usually trying to hold on snake eyes, since you regular leadership is 5. You get broken and overrun. - And since you are skirmishers the cavalry uses you to redirect his movement towards more interesting targets. - So essentially: 15 points a piece for a free move of enemy cavalry towards the flanks of your big units. - And it es a special choice. - Really sounds like a good deal to me.

(On tables with lots of LOS-blocking terrain features it is a bit different though, but since officially no terrain may be put in the middle of the table in pitched battles - what can I say. ... ).

yorch
03-06-2008, 11:48
A friend of mine uses them (squig hoppers) in a very sneaky way. He hides them in difficult terrain (best if it blocks LOS, like a forest) and charges through it, as they are skirmishers and don't need LOS to charge. This way they are covered against cavalry charges.

Of course you need terrain, but I think a warhammer 2k points battle should have between 4 to 6 scenography elements in order to be a little more tactical.

the_orc
03-06-2008, 12:52
I don't think that's sneaky. That's the only way it works. The problem is always: Where is the terrain and how far is it away? - A forest close to the opponents deployment zone is too far away most of the time, since enemy cavalry cuts you off before you get there. Terrain to the sides of the table can be useless if no enemy unit bothers to get close to it. And the typical hill in your or your opponents deployment zone won't help you either. Which leaves something like a small obstacle somewhere close to the middle of the table and that is too small to hide behind, considering you must move every round.

Yes, as you described. They can be useful that way. But my experience is on most tournaments you won't get a terrain setup that helps you (and BTW: That terrain setup won't help the rest of your army, because a big forest in the middle of the table is quite a bad news for all infantry units of an O&G army).

kroq'gar
03-06-2008, 12:55
Definately be the loss of bound monsters. As above, i have a forest dragon rotting away...

Colonel Fitzgerald
03-06-2008, 13:51
I actually like the OnG list... (well, except for the pitiful magical items section) we're pretty solid. Anyone?.. Jut me then (whistles through corner of mouth..)

Off topic slightly but, losing the Exterminator tanks & Griffon Heavy Mortars from my Imperial Guard sucked big time too - hoo! The conversions I had to do... I was damned if I was spending all that money on Imperial Armour - GW get enough money from me.

In Fantasy, the Empire losing the footknights -someone'e mentioned this I know but- WHAT was that all about? I loved the idea of having them - now we've got the unbelievably pricey Greatswords? Come onnnnnnnn - too expensive in ús and not swell on the table, either. Nothing beats a Knight with an armour save of 2 - on foot! (Admittedly my WFB rules are fudgey - haven't played much 7th edition - we do get a 2up save in combat to units at the front with full plate armour, sheild & hand weapon, right?)

the_orc
03-06-2008, 16:15
I believe greatswords are a good unit. They are stubborn. Many armies don't have useful stubborn or unbreakable troops, but empire has tons of them. The only problem is: greatswords are special. Those flaildudes are core if you take a priest, which everyone does. Also there many more useful units in the empire special section.

But if you go for an empire infantry army you defenitely want those greatswords. Probably more than those footknights with 2+ save, since they don't dish out any damage with a handweapon at S3.

Pac
03-06-2008, 18:34
Dwarf thunderers... they were great, the move and shot rule, 4+AS, T4 make them the most useful shooting unit!!!

7ed without the move and shot rule they don't like me.

kroq'gar
04-06-2008, 03:52
Wait, revelation.

The Doomwheel. What the %&* was it removed for. It wasnt just a unit being lost, with it died much of the humour from the army (resembles a mouse wheel? well.. THEIR MUTANT MICE WITH MACHINE GUNS)

Tasniik
04-06-2008, 06:38
I am familiar with 5th edition fantasy, that was when i first got into the hobby but that was also way back in middle school so I don't recall most of it. The old OnG list did have quite a bit to choose from but I think the newer list has put alot of what I remember back into the game. They have also streamlined the rules greatly on night goblin units imho as well as making Squig Hoppers no longer move in random directions, even if they still have 3d6 movement.

lilljonas
04-06-2008, 10:09
I am familiar with 5th edition fantasy, that was when i first got into the hobby but that was also way back in middle school so I don't recall most of it. The old OnG list did have quite a bit to choose from but I think the newer list has put alot of what I remember back into the game. They have also streamlined the rules greatly on night goblin units imho as well as making Squig Hoppers no longer move in random directions, even if they still have 3d6 movement.

Yeah, random squig hoppers together with fanatics whirling around made for a long movement phase! :) A lot of removals were for the better in terms of streamlining and balancing, but I still miss the forest goblins and even further back, O&G organ cannons! Yeah!

Ixquic
04-06-2008, 11:47
The new Vampire Counts book pretty much ruined ghouls and direwolves.

Ghouls losing skirmish made them yet another unit of crumbling ranked infantry in an army that already had enough of that. The fact that they didn't get upgraded to have a command group means that you have to pay 40 points for every point of combat resolution that doesn't get to attack (through ranks of guys in the back) where static CR is the real benefit of being a ranked unit. They no longer have the maneuverability they used to. So basically they traded a 360 charge and no incumberance through trees for MAYBE 1-3 combat resolution points if you triple the cost and size of their 6th edition units.

Dire Wolves lost not only their only chance of actually doing any damage by having their slavering charge move taken away, but now they don't count for core requirement. I used to use a decent amount (10-15 in addition to other core so no I didn't have an all mounted Blood Dragons army) and now there's really no point, especially when Fel Bats are better in almost every way with the exception of unit strength.

Chiron
04-06-2008, 12:21
All good solid contenders so far guys. Somewhat lacking in the personal touch, more a factual analysis of why certain units have become less than there former selves. No tales of tears as you put your recently finished unit of mummies in the cabinent, the new vampire counts half of the undead army book in your hands. Or buying a dogs of war unit two weeks before they become void.
Keep it up...


Ah... in that case, Snotlings for sure, I'd spent a few weeks buying them up from ebay and come up with a way to make them cheaply out of green stuff (several small blobs made an acceptable NG alike snotling) in order to make an entire army out the little buggers, thought it would be a nice long term project.

1 month later, out come the rumours of the O&G book and the loss of the snotling varient army in the back of the book

Oh and the fact they are now even more pointless

Wyrdstone
04-06-2008, 20:31
I just wish the empire war wagon was still around :D
so randomly equiped but cool
but they cut it out...

kroq'gar
05-06-2008, 04:23
on snotlings



Oh and the fact they are now even more pointless

They are a perfect missile screen for infantry & to keep animosity in check.
I always dreamed of the day i owned a snothling hoard. Dashed dreams.


The unit MOST ruined by an update would be ogres.

Halelel
05-06-2008, 04:50
I believe the author of the O&G book decided to take the fun/fluff route more than a functionality route when it came to the army. It would explain the absolutely horrendous rules that the author thought would fit "fluff" wise with what the author envisioned O&G to be.

That or he was sleeping in a room full of open cans of paint thinners, :)

SuperArchMegalon
05-06-2008, 04:51
The new Vampire Counts book pretty much ruined ghouls and direwolves.

Ghouls losing skirmish made them yet another unit of crumbling ranked infantry in an army that already had enough of that. The fact that they didn't get upgraded to have a command group means that you have to pay 40 points for every point of combat resolution that doesn't get to attack (through ranks of guys in the back) where static CR is the real benefit of being a ranked unit. They no longer have the maneuverability they used to. So basically they traded a 360 charge and no incumberance through trees for MAYBE 1-3 combat resolution points if you triple the cost and size of their 6th edition units.

Dire Wolves lost not only their only chance of actually doing any damage by having their slavering charge move taken away, but now they don't count for core requirement. I used to use a decent amount (10-15 in addition to other core so no I didn't have an all mounted Blood Dragons army) and now there's really no point, especially when Fel Bats are better in almost every way with the exception of unit strength.

I don't think you could RAISE GHOULS BACK FROM THE DEAD, and they're ItP now instead of LD5 or 6 whichever it was. Sounds like they only got better, to me.

As for wolves, if you want to wound use Knights - wolves were a bit too "multi-purpose" and without slavering charge they still can take out Warmachines, and fulfill their most important role of re-directing charges (which fel bats can't do, only speedbump - for more points). Wolves are still good, and you forgot to mention they're cheaper.

I don't think that anything in the VC book got worse.

kroq'gar
05-06-2008, 04:52
O&G are one of the best books, hands down. Other armies need to return to that route (look at how S*&T the skaven hoarde became when it took the 'practical road').

Ixquic
05-06-2008, 11:53
I don't think you could RAISE GHOULS BACK FROM THE DEAD, and they're ItP now instead of LD5 or 6 whichever it was. Sounds like they only got better, to me.

As for wolves, if you want to wound use Knights - wolves were a bit too "multi-purpose" and without slavering charge they still can take out Warmachines, and fulfill their most important role of re-directing charges (which fel bats can't do, only speedbump - for more points). Wolves are still good, and you forgot to mention they're cheaper.

I don't think that anything in the VC book got worse.

I have skeletons, zombies and grave guard to be ItP ranked units that I can raise, I don't need one more; what I need is a unit that can operate outside the general's 12 inch (of now regular Vampire's 6 inch) radius, flee from charges and do other stuff skirmishers are useful for. A unit of 7-9 could be totally functional but now they need to have several ranks to have the benefits of a ranked unit so being able to raise them when now I have to spend more point on their unit in the first place isn't that much of a bonus. Unless you're some guy that REALLY wanted to use ranked ghouls instead of skeletons they were totally nerfed.

Fel Bats can easily set up redirections since chargers have to line up with the models they are charging. If anything bats are better at setting up redirections since they don't have to maintain base contact and you can just set up that one model in front facing the direction you want chargers to go. Wolves have a much harder time taking out war-machines than before since they get less attacks than a unit of bats because of their base size to attack ratio and the strength 4 is pivotal; four attacks versus six on a standard unit of three war machine crew and most of the time the crew benefits from high ground. Yes they are cheaper by two points, but they have lost a lot of functionality by losing that charge and now that you have to have them in addition to your three infantry units bats are the better use of your points. I'm not sure why you recommend using knights instead of a fast cav unit since they have vastly different uses. Most fast cav have the ability to do some damage on the charge and reduce the amount of attacks back at them so they can pull off important flank charges. Now that dire wolves have lost that offensive ability, they face more attacks back and with no armor the chance that they will be reduced below US 5 is very good.

Also I don't think you can look at the VC book and say nothing got worse. I totally forgot about Necromancers. Seriously they were destroyed and there is no point to have them at all unless you just must save 35 points.

MrBigMr
05-06-2008, 12:49
I'll go with the popular vote and say Daemon Prince, even though I still field one no matter what.