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View Full Version : Inquisitorial armies - what is to be done? (What do you want *and* what is likely)?



Luckywallace
31-05-2008, 13:04
Sorry if this is a duplicate, I have noticed a lot of threads zipping around about sisters of battle, grey knights and inquisitors in general but nothing that really combines this key question into one thread.

As they currently stand, it seems that the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codex books are somewhat out-of-date. Few other armies have codex books as old as them now (or else have updates on the horizon). Also, when such armies are updated they should not require huge, fundamental changes, just some tweaks and updates (except maybe Dark Eldar who need something of a major overhaul, their codex coming from the dark ages of early 3rd edition).

Anyway, there are a lot of opinions flying around about what gamers think G.W. might do with these armies. As we all know, Alien Hunters was supposed to be released as a seperate codex at some point with the Deathwatch in the mix but this never happened.

I myself am a Sisters of Battle gamer (no Ordos Hereticus elements, though I have dabbled with them in the past). There is a strong case to be made, I feel, for the Sisters of Battle being split-off into their own seperate codex. They are quite a unique army in terms of their stat lines and equipment combinations and play very differantly from most other armies. Their faith points are a unique element and work well (though a few tweaks would probably be done).

However, I am realistic enough to think this is unlikely. While SOB's are quite popular I doubt they would garner the sales of a new Space Marine codex or even a new Necron or Imperial Guard book. If G.W. is serious about doing "legion" codex books for Chaos Space Marines they could also make a lot more dosh than an S.O.B. book.

I think Grey Knights are in the same situation. They have a devoted fan base and, like the S.O.B.'s some beautiful metal models. But while it would be cool I cannot see the Grey Knights being given their own complete spin-off codex. The Grey Knights are also seriously lacking in choices... let's be honest they don't even have a *proper* fast attack choice. The Sisters are a bit better off in regards variety and options (especially if you include Ecclesiarchy stuff like Penitent Engines and Arco-Flaggelants which are still NOT Inquisitorial troops). However, the SOB's still come up a bit short on unit choices compared to (most) other armies out there.

As for the Deathwatch they are just a single unit and a few HQ's...

While I would appreciate seperate books I think the only realistic situation is that G.W. will do one BIG all-encompasing book probably just entitled "CODEX: INQUISITION". As many have suggested before the list would work best if your HQ choices dictated which troops you could take so therefore the list could still work well for those after a pure Sisters force or a pure Grey Knights force.

Roughly speaking...

- An Inquisitor as an HQ choices gives you access to (obviously) themselves and their retinue, Assassins, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, Orbital Strikes and anything else I have forgotton that is Inquisitor-dependant.

- A Deathwatch Captain or Librarian gives you access to Deathwatch Kill Teams.

- A Grey Knights Grand Master gives you access to Grey Knights Terminators, Grey Knights troops, Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders.

- A Canonness gives you access to Priests, Celestians, Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, Sisters of Battle Squads, Dominions, Seraphim, Retributors, Penitent Engines, Exorcists and Immolators.

If you compare that to other codex books the number of choices is roughly equivilent. It may be a lot of stuff to cram into the background section but with the codex books stretching up to 104 pages these days it is not impossible and with the unit-by-unit descriptions approach now back in force, each squad can get a detailed explaination of who they are and what they do.

The only issue I am undecided on is whether Inquisitorial armies should still be allowed to "ally" with Imperial Guard and Space Marines? I would probably lean towards saying "NO" with perhaps the exception of Inquisitors themselves and their attatched troops (e.g. Assassins) but not any Sisters or Grey Knights.

So... Agree? Disagree? I know this is not an original idea but I really couldn't find another thread which discussed this subject properly (it usually came up while other subjects were the main focus).

rodmillard
31-05-2008, 13:38
As I've said in a couple of threads, I'd like to see DW replace the "allied marine" units in the new codex - since they are, basically, marine units allied to the Ordo Xenos. Kill teams culd stay as the elite/retinue option, but other units mirror codex organisation (tactical, assault, devastator) gaining preferred enemy and access to special weapon types instead of the usual marine options.

At the same time, you could include PDF units in the Inquisition codex instead of inducted guard - aain with different upgrades. If GW went this way it would give DW a usable list to include in an Inquisition Codex which would then represent all 3 of the major ordos, and eliminate the need for allied units taken from another codex, which they are trying to do away with outside apocalypse.

I think the best way to go would be to make it dependent on HQ, although I would keep elite choice Inquisitors giving access to some units (though perhaps not all the =I= dependent units like temple assassins/daemon hosts). The alternative would be to make the orders militant troop dependent, so you must have 2 GK troop choices before you can take other GK units etc. The HQ option is closer to the way GW are going at the moment, though - and it would still allow players to just take GK terminators and heroes if we want

==Me==
31-05-2008, 13:46
To fit in with the new design philosophy, the =][= Codex will probably be rolled up into 1 book containing rules for Inquisitors, GK, SoB, and Deathwatch. Much like the Chaos Codex, you'll be allowed to mix and match everything and it will be up to the player to theme their list appropriately. Pure sisters, pure GK, etc will be possible.

Ideally, I'd like to have your choice of leader influence the army selection. Either the HQ you choose makes only 1 Troop type count as compulsory, or if everything is 0-1, 0-2, and picking the appropriate HQ removes restrictions from certain units.

I would prefer most if there was a single generic Troops choice that was usable to all 4 armies: could represent impressed militia, cultists, etc. Then, everything else fills up other slots. Normal GKs, SoBs, DWKTs, and Storm Troopers would be Elites, or Fast Attack if given a transport/deep strike. If you pick a Canoness, SoBs are now Troops, and likewise for the rest. That way you can mix the armies or use a pure force, plus it gives the list some needed Fast Attack. That does make for a very cluttered Elites section though.

Grand Master Raziel
31-05-2008, 14:13
I, for one, don't see a combined Inquisitorial Codex ever happening. For one thing, I don't think that GW has any idea what to do for the Ordo Xenos. Deathwatch Kill Teams are a neat optional unit to attach to Imperial armies, but how do you make a whole Codex around that without it either being almost identical to Codex: Space Marines or having them come out like Space Marines, but more so?

For another, in order to be able to properly do justice to three completely different armies, a combined Inquisitorial dex would be a bloated monstrosity of a book. Just combining Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Witchhunters would be a logistical nightmare. Throw in a complete Ordo Xenos army on top of that? I mean, if GW [i]wants[/] to give Inquisitorial players a codex the size of the BGB, I'll buy it, but I don't think that would be their swiftest move from business standpoint. Conversely, if GW tries to produce a combined dex of reasonable size, they'd wind up having to drop out a lot of options in the current list. The options available to Sisters of Battle would probably get butchered, but Grey Knights would probably lose a lot of their Heavy Support options as well (since that's the only category where Grey Knights have more than one option).

Also, GW announced its intention to do three Inquisitorial dexes back when Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeil were running the show. The rumor of a combined Inquisitorial dex came out shortly thereafter - around the beginning of 4th ed, I believe. Now, the 40K design team is headed up by JJ, Phil Kelly, Allessio Cavatore, and Andy Hoare, who are taking 40K in a different direction from the previous lot, and might not be inclined to follow through on their long range plans. Plus, I don't think JJ is keen to add any new dexes to the system at this point. If he were, there are better candidates for full-dexhood than Alienhunters (LatD spring to mind), not to mention the fact that there are still dexes in play that badly need updates - in order of need, Codex: Space Marines (to finish rebalancing MEQ armies), Codex: Dark Eldar (which needs the update more than the SM book, but won't have anything near the effect on the metagame), Codex: Space Wolves (the last of the pamphlet-style 3rd ed dexes), and Codex: Necrons (needs to be sexed up a little bit, plus some small balance issues need addressing).

So, I'm not seeing a combined Inquisitorial dex as a serious possibility for the future. The upside is that both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters have actual dexes, which means that GW has to remain committed to maintaining those respective armies, which means that we can expect updates eventually. There are players who have waited a lot longer for updates for their armies (Orks, DE, Necrons) than either of the Inquisitorial dexes have been in existance, so we might have to wait a while yet, but it'll come eventually. If you've got any ideas for what you want to see in them, write to JJ - his work address is in my sig.

Murdoch
31-05-2008, 14:16
Codex: Inquisition seems to be a logical step. However I am not really fussed about what form the book takes more when it will be released!

I am betting early 2010 at the very very earliest

In terms of composition it would be very difficult to move the troop types in the existing DH and WH lists and move them into Elite/FA as it would demolish the majority of the lists being playe at present.

What I would like would be some transport options for my all GK foot slogger army that gets shot to bits every time I field it (looks shiny though!!).

Templar Ben
31-05-2008, 16:29
Well as far as the releases we need four to six new plastic sets since that seems to be the current standard.

I see one being the Grey Knight Upgrade Sprue. It has alternate helmets and shoulder shields to convert Terminators to Grey Knight terminators. I would see something similar to make Grey Knights. Depending on how the codex is written they can have access to most if not all of the existing Space Marine boxes presuming that the upgrade box is like the Black Templar one and has Dread parts, doors and unique weapons.

As far as Sisters, there is no way you can convert. They have demonstrated that they can do fabric in multipart plastic (look at the Empire Wizards) so there is now the option to make a box of sisters in plastic. The only other part that they should do (in my opinion naturally) would be Seraphim. If there will not be a separate SoB upgrade sprue then I would put "gothic" accessories on the two Sisters sprues I just made up. That will help them convert Rhinos and Land Raiders (and perhaps Leman Russ tanks).

Depending on the timing with this relative to the change in the Imperial Guard I would either release plastic stormtroopers or (more likely since IG would be before this) I would have an upgrade for IG to make them Inquisitorial. I see heads with berets and some inquisitional symbols as well as hell guns that are marked for the Inquisition.

40kdhs
31-05-2008, 18:39
i don't like to see a combined I because it's too big. I hope i will see a GK codex. Daemon has its own codex. Why can't GK have it.?

LokkoRex
31-05-2008, 19:19
i think deathwatch techmarines should be added to(the deathwatch techmarine from the cover of warrior brood(me thinks) just looks so ******* cool)

Grand Warlord
31-05-2008, 19:26
I'll take whatever I can get in terms of =I= and books. ALso I doubt the SoB will ever be a stand alone codex, I doubt the ordo hereticus would lett heir ordo militant do that ... right?

ZiggyTempest
31-05-2008, 19:34
I think that the biggest problem is the Ordo Xenos. Gw either has to downgrade them into an Ordo Minoris and leave them as is or give them the treatment that a Major Ordo of the Inquisition deserves.

[Glory] Wulf
31-05-2008, 19:34
I'll take whatever I can get in terms of =I= and books. ALso I doubt the SoB will ever be a stand alone codex, I doubt the ordo hereticus would lett heir ordo militant do that ... right?
You should read the classics. Once apon a time the Sisters of Battle had their own codex.

But all I really would want now, is a new codex. To balance it all out again. Just a new codex. (A joint Inquisition codex preferably.)

Luckywallace
31-05-2008, 19:35
Well Grand Warlord, the SOBs are not *just* the Ordo Heretics' chamber militant, they also work completely independantly at times according to the mandate of the Ecclesiarchy (a seperate organisation from the Inquisition).

But anyway, good to see the interest in the subject. While I would like to see otherwise, I cannot imagine Games Workshop doing a complete range of plastics for Grey Knights or Sisters. Both have complete (and very nice) metal ranges as they stand and as I said I cannot imagine either force being popular enough to warrant a load of plastics. Perhaps a "Deathwatch Kill Team" upgrade sprue for standard marines is the most likely but I would not count on that either.

Don't get me wrong, I would love plastic Sisters and Grey Knights but cannot imagine it happening. I would imagine the Inquisitorial Codex (if such a thing emerges) to be accompanied only by more metal releases.

40kdhs
31-05-2008, 19:45
What DH and WH need right now is a new codex. Their models are still good.

burning crome
31-05-2008, 19:45
I think we have to be carefully for what we wish for here. An all in one codex would have to lose some of the stuff that makes them so fun to play. Ok you might end up with a more completive list but if we wanted to win all the time then we'd all play eldar (sight dig their, one of my top past time at the moment is hear them wining about how over powered ork are irony just dose seem dawn on them) hopfully the FOQ come out in December will have some fixs to the current problems(eg DH not being good agaist demons) To be hoest both codex seem fine to me they just need updating.

EmperorEternalXIX
31-05-2008, 19:55
It has always irked me a bit how awesome the SoB's are compared to the GKs. A pure DH force can't nearly match the flexibility of an SoB army from what I've seen. Now of course, an army full of guys with storm bolters and psycannons and str6 in CC has its merits...but it would be nice if they had some more useful abilities or units to be able to take on the role of heavy support or fast attack.

Pavic
31-05-2008, 20:41
Well, I don't play 40K currently, but I will say that I think it is odd that the new rule book, which I was able to look through today, did not include a section for the Inquisition or any of its components. I thought this was very odd and looked through the book several times, but there simply was not a fluff section for them. There was a section in the painting part of the book, but nothing else really. Surely they won't clip all of these armies.

Templar Ben
31-05-2008, 21:08
Wulf;2660937']But all I really would want now, is a new codex. To balance it all out again. Just a new codex. (A joint Inquisition codex preferably.)


But anyway, good to see the interest in the subject. While I would like to see otherwise, I cannot imagine Games Workshop doing a complete range of plastics for Grey Knights or Sisters. Both have complete (and very nice) metal ranges as they stand and as I said I cannot imagine either force being popular enough to warrant a load of plastics. Perhaps a "Deathwatch Kill Team" upgrade sprue for standard marines is the most likely but I would not count on that either.

Don't get me wrong, I would love plastic Sisters and Grey Knights but cannot imagine it happening. I would imagine the Inquisitorial Codex (if such a thing emerges) to be accompanied only by more metal releases.


What DH and WH need right now is a new codex. Their models are still good.

Just a codex would never happen. Games Workshop doesn't really make games. Games Workshop is a model making company that uses games as a marketing device to sell the models. Models are where the money is and quite rightly that is where the focus is.

If GW determines that the demand for the release of a combined Ordo codex is so low that the costs for the sprues that I proposed would not be recovered then I don't see how GW as a company can devote any resources to develop the army.

So parts of an army can be metal but GW is not in the habit of making all metal armies. If sales don't justify the plastic then sales don't justify the resources. Please point to a release in the last 4 years that was primarily metal (that would be metal core choices for WHFB and metal troops for 40K). I wouldn't include Vostroyan; not because they are metal but because they were not part of an IG release or Codex but just an additional army to go with what GW was really selling, plastic buildings.

Now if what you are really suggesting is GW cut and paste some crap together and put in in WD as a "Chapter Approved" codex then I will grant you that. I was under the impression we were talking about actually doing an army release with the three month build up, model release, hard copy codex and in store events.

Ravening Wh0re
01-06-2008, 02:51
I see the fighting styles of each chamber militant to be very different.

Sister are more conventional short-ranged fire based combat.
Inquisition already represented by wargear and powers that are anti-psyker and mess with leadership (could do with some tweaking though)

Grey Knights are rock hard with access to terminators and high strength weaponry. Land Raiders too.
Inquisition are tooled up combat psychopaths already.

Death Watch : These guys I see as fast rapid response veterans. Each marine is a veteran armed with various weaponry of their choice.
Easy access to jumppacks, but no terminators.
The various ammo options and suspensors should definately stay to represent ability to adapt to any Xenos foe.
Inquisitors here I'm not too sure about.

Luckywallace
01-06-2008, 09:19
Just a codex would never happen. Games Workshop doesn't really make games. Games Workshop is a model making company that uses games as a marketing device to sell the models. Models are where the money is and quite rightly that is where the focus is.

If GW determines that the demand for the release of a combined Ordo codex is so low that the costs for the sprues that I proposed would not be recovered then I don't see how GW as a company can devote any resources to develop the army.

So parts of an army can be metal but GW is not in the habit of making all metal armies. If sales don't justify the plastic then sales don't justify the resources. Please point to a release in the last 4 years that was primarily metal (that would be metal core choices for WHFB and metal troops for 40K). I wouldn't include Vostroyan; not because they are metal but because they were not part of an IG release or Codex but just an additional army to go with what GW was really selling, plastic buildings.

Now if what you are really suggesting is GW cut and paste some crap together and put in in WD as a "Chapter Approved" codex then I will grant you that. I was under the impression we were talking about actually doing an army release with the three month build up, model release, hard copy codex and in store events.

Well, basically if you look back at the previous Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codex books these were releases supported only by metal models.

I know that GW has really pushed the plastic kits in more recent years, and again i would love to see plastic Sisters of Battle, I just... won't hold my breath.

Perhaps with the Blood Angels and Warriors of Chaos lists having appeared in White Dwarf, G.W. would not be opposed to printing something similar for Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters?

Still leaves the problem of Alien Hunters being basically an un-useable army (in it's own right anyway, they're okay as allies).

Spectral Dragon
01-06-2008, 09:59
I'll say it again, I hope to god they don't convert GK's to plastic, it would ruin them IMO.

What I hope happens is a quick WD update to tide us over until the new codex arrives. They have done this in the past with other imperial armies.

Also, is there confirmation on what was said about =][= having no fluff section in the new rulebook?

Colonial Rifle
01-06-2008, 10:03
Inqusitorial armies are an anathema to JJ's design philosophy - they use allies from other codexs, there models are mainly metal and they are packed with characterful fluff that restricts the armies you can build. Divine Guidance and inquisitorial retinues will go ("too complicated!") and no doubt we will have a major fluff rewrite to explain why these seperate forces team up all the time.

DH and WH will be murdered in any new codex, so just hope it doesn't happen.

Templar Ben
01-06-2008, 11:41
Well, basically if you look back at the previous Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codex books these were releases supported only by metal models.

I know that GW has really pushed the plastic kits in more recent years, and again i would love to see plastic Sisters of Battle, I just... won't hold my breath.

Perhaps with the Blood Angels and Warriors of Chaos lists having appeared in White Dwarf, G.W. would not be opposed to printing something similar for Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters?

Still leaves the problem of Alien Hunters being basically an un-useable army (in it's own right anyway, they're okay as allies).

I agree that it has happened before but they don't release metal models as main line (at least since LotR money came in).

I have rather large armies of both Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle and I understand many people wishing the models to stay as they are. I just don't see GW investing the time and money on something that they view as having so small of a market that it will not recover the costs.

Alien Hunters could be built like a SM Chapter, a unit like Tyranid hunters in elites as well as a unit of Deathwatch vets. One could give them a named HQ that grants Preferred Enemy of any Xenos they are fighting (like Tycho is with Orks). It is possible.


I'll say it again, I hope to god they don't convert GK's to plastic, it would ruin them IMO.

What I hope happens is a quick WD update to tide us over until the new codex arrives. They have done this in the past with other imperial armies.

Also, is there confirmation on what was said about =][= having no fluff section in the new rulebook?

It has nothing to do with hope. Is there a market for Grey Knight? If GW thinks it will sell about X number of units and it will cover the cost of the plastic dies then they will do it in plastic as that results in the lowest per unit cost on the margin. Plastic is easier to handle and cheaper to ship.

A WD update would mean no new models. As I said, if that is what people are talking about then you are correct. Is to them doing it in the past, well under the current regime they have done it twice. Once for Blood Angels (cut and paste from Dark Angels mostly) and then for Warriors of Chaos for WHFB.

There is also a current rumor that the new IG codex has an Inquisitor HQ choice. Make of that what you will.


Inqusitorial armies are an anathema to JJ's design philosophy - they use allies from other codexs, there models are mainly metal and they are packed with characterful fluff that restricts the armies you can build. Divine Guidance and inquisitorial retinues will go ("too complicated!") and no doubt we will have a major fluff rewrite to explain why these seperate forces team up all the time.

DH and WH will be murdered in any new codex, so just hope it doesn't happen.

I could see the "allied and inducted" units being replicated in the Codex since the move is for every Codex to be stand alone. As to the metal models, they use metal when they see the market being very limited and unable to justify production in plastic. If an entire army has that little interest then why would GW make that a release? I see the inquisitorial retinues closely matching what is in the current Witchhunter Inquisitor box (1 Crusader, 1 Sister Hospitaler, 1 Lexmechanic, 1 Acolyte, 1 Penitent and 1 Cherubim). I see the combined codex being much like the DA Codex. This HQ and you are GK, this HQ and you are SoB, and this HQ you are Deathwatch but then you can combine forces.

Spectral Dragon
01-06-2008, 12:17
It has nothing to do with hope. Is there a market for Grey Knight? If GW thinks it will sell about X number of units and it will cover the cost of the plastic dies then they will do it in plastic as that results in the lowest per unit cost on the margin. Plastic is easier to handle and cheaper to ship.

A WD update would mean no new models. As I said, if that is what people are talking about then you are correct. Is to them doing it in the past, well under the current regime they have done it twice. Once for Blood Angels (cut and paste from Dark Angels mostly) and then for Warriors of Chaos for WHFB.

There is also a current rumor that the new IG codex has an Inquisitor HQ choice. Make of that what you will.

Actually, I have been told by a few sources that GW does try to take a small amount of consideration for the fanbase.

While I am not sure how true this is, another rumor I have heard is that the current regime was not responsible for the inquisition armies, so what I have to say next might be out the window.

A third rumor I have heard is that GW's take on the inquisition armies are that they are "unique and advanced armies for experienced players and painters." This was the original reason, as rumor has it, there were no plastic models released in the first place for Daemonhunters.

Thus, I am not so sure your reasoning is sound here. Even the codex itself states that GK's are for advanced players and was designed as such.

monopeludo
01-06-2008, 12:33
After reading the new deamon codex I would bet that they are making (someday) a mixed dex. But it wont be the same as we allready have. All sections mixed in the same dex. I could never imagine a Great unclean one leading a blue horror orde. But now it can be done. Same is going to happen to us Inquisition followers.
I hope they do it soon cause is a pain playing with such an old and full of misprints codex.

HiredSword.
01-06-2008, 13:05
I do like the idea of the deathwatch taking the slot of allied marines in the new codex, getting devs, assault squads etc. to properly mirros marine organisation. It might seem a little bland at first but with normal deathwatch rules added plus ordo xenos inquisitors it may work.

I can see deathwatch marines serving all purposes (think of them as filling the same role as inquisitorial stormtroopers) and a cheaper option to grey knights who would probably take up a lot of fast attack roles in a typical army.

personally, I hope they don't combine the ordos like they did with the daemons as it seems to break fluff having to make a balanced force from all 3 ordos.

lonepilgrim
01-06-2008, 13:23
There are quite a few issues which apply to Inquisition armies are probably the reason why GW have put those armies on the back-burner.

1. They are currently all metal. If the rumoured plastic Stormtroopers are released with the IG codex that might pave the way for more Inq plastics. New tech might allow some existing models to be converted. But, as others have pointed out, at the moment they don't neatly fit into GW's release strategy.

2. The army list uses allies extensively which are totally against the design philosophy of the game at the moment. Any new codex would have to bring allied units into the codex or drop them.

3. They are currently split into two codices and a third, Xenos, would be required to complete the three Ordos. If they were to dedicate a codex to each Ordo it would take up big chunks of their release schedule for relatively 'niche' armies.

4. IIRC Andy Chambers was a big champion for the Sisters and he is now gone. GW have a different business model for releasing armies now and I think we'll see less 'quirky' releases. JJ may be the saviour here if he believes that the Inquisition armies inject the right fluff and background feel into the 40k game.

5. The Daemonhunter codex was badly affected by the breaking up of the CSM and Daemon codices. Now that both new books have been released the DH could be rebuilt around them.

So what could GW do?

They could drop the Inquisition armies entirely. Put a few entries in other codices across the range (like IG, Space Marines, etc). I think this is unlikely just because of the sheer range of models and vehicles they already produce. Plus it would enrage the small but vocal players of those armies.

At the other end of the scale they could do a full release of each Ordo codex with core units in plastics. I think this is unrealistic too. They're already baulking at the seperate Marine Chapter books and seem to be looking hard at the Legion books for Chaos. Would they really want to release another three codices into the game? It would mean a massive investment in time, models and marketing windows for what GW probably sees as 'fringe' armies.

I think GW will do something in the middle. They can wrap the three Ordos up in a single Inquisition codex giving players the choice of mixing and matching units or picking 'fluffy' Grey Knight/SOB/Xenos only units. Streamline the unit choices to reduce the clutter in the list (as they have done in previous codices). And they can repackage the existing units into boxes to get rid of blisters. They can maybe add a few new character models or maybe Xenos units to pad out the range and it'll only take up one release 'slot.' It means they don't have to invest massive resources, they can keep the existing players 'relatively' happy and might tempt some new players with the cool, expanded background.

Col. Tartleton
01-06-2008, 14:08
If they were smart they'd put a OX list in the new C:SM book. That way it'd make more sense and not clutter the regular novel.

Unless they decide to make the variety of the list MUCH larger.

For example, they could have 2 lists, Orthodox or Radical. Orthodox would be all Marines and Radical would allow varied alien units. Eldar, Tau, Kroot, a few made up races, and that way you could have the fluffy Kill team serving as aides with an alien force for an Alien vs Alien conflict. Say like in 2nd DW book they help Eldar fight Dark Eldar. I'd run a Small orthodox force, but the option would add dynamics to the list. After all, all the other =I= have both kinds, puritans and radicals.

Templar Ben
01-06-2008, 15:58
Actually, I have been told by a few sources that GW does try to take a small amount of consideration for the fanbase.

I sure they do but ultimately they are a company and will do what is in the best interests of the company as a going concern. I was simply pointing out that if they are so convinced that the market is that small then how can they justify the investment.


While I am not sure how true this is, another rumor I have heard is that the current regime was not responsible for the inquisition armies, so what I have to say next might be out the window.

This goes back to the first statement. Fans still bring up Squats. They don't wish to remove another army. They could combine several armies into one list (like Imperial Guard is Catachan, Vostroyan, Steel Legion, Cadian, etc.) and I could see that happening with the Inquisition but I doubt removal.


A third rumor I have heard is that GW's take on the inquisition armies are that they are "unique and advanced armies for experienced players and painters." This was the original reason, as rumor has it, there were no plastic models released in the first place for Daemonhunters.

They are an old army. Many back then were metal. They are unique but that is more an issue of age back when "wonky rules roamed the Earth".


Thus, I am not so sure your reasoning is sound here. Even the codex itself states that GK's are for advanced players and was designed as such.

I will admit that I don't have access to the internal workings of GW but if you can show where JJ has led in a way contrary to my assertion I welcome it. I may have missed something but my observation of the last several years shows a clear pattern that GW is following.


I do like the idea of the deathwatch taking the slot of allied marines in the new codex, getting devs, assault squads etc. to properly mirros marine organisation. It might seem a little bland at first but with normal deathwatch rules added plus ordo xenos inquisitors it may work.

I think it would fit nicely as well.


I can see deathwatch marines serving all purposes (think of them as filling the same role as inquisitorial stormtroopers) and a cheaper option to grey knights who would probably take up a lot of fast attack roles in a typical army.

I agree.


personally, I hope they don't combine the ordos like they did with the daemons as it seems to break fluff having to make a balanced force from all 3 ordos.

I think the Daemons have shown that Fluff can be changed for the good of the army. I think we may well see that happen. Then again my reasoning may be not sound.


There are quite a few issues which apply to Inquisition armies are probably the reason why GW have put those armies on the back-burner.

I agree.


1. They are currently all metal. If the rumoured plastic Stormtroopers are released with the IG codex that might pave the way for more Inq plastics. New tech might allow some existing models to be converted. But, as others have pointed out, at the moment they don't neatly fit into GW's release strategy.

Well releases are to put out new plastics so if the Inquisition is to get a release it follows that it would be to release 4-6 new plastics.


2. The army list uses allies extensively which are totally against the design philosophy of the game at the moment. Any new codex would have to bring allied units into the codex or drop them.

I agree. I said that as well. I think many would be brought in but there was an excellent point that Ordo Xenos Deathwatch could fill the role of Space Marines.


3. They are currently split into two codices and a third, Xenos, would be required to complete the three Ordos. If they were to dedicate a codex to each Ordo it would take up big chunks of their release schedule for relatively 'niche' armies.

That is why I don't think that will happen.


4. IIRC Andy Chambers was a big champion for the Sisters and he is now gone. GW have a different business model for releasing armies now and I think we'll see less 'quirky' releases. JJ may be the saviour here if he believes that the Inquisition armies inject the right fluff and background feel into the 40k game.

I don't know that they will be removed and I see a larger market for a combined Inquisition then for Dark Eldar.


5. The Daemonhunter codex was badly affected by the breaking up of the CSM and Daemon codices. Now that both new books have been released the DH could be rebuilt around them.

It does put some impetus on a rewrite. That doesn't mean that it will required but it would be good to see some balance.


So what could GW do?

They could drop the Inquisition armies entirely. Put a few entries in other codices across the range (like IG, Space Marines, etc). I think this is unlikely just because of the sheer range of models and vehicles they already produce. Plus it would enrage the small but vocal players of those armies.

The stated position is no more "squatted" armies.


At the other end of the scale they could do a full release of each Ordo codex with core units in plastics. I think this is unrealistic too. They're already baulking at the seperate Marine Chapter books and seem to be looking hard at the Legion books for Chaos. Would they really want to release another three codices into the game? It would mean a massive investment in time, models and marketing windows for what GW probably sees as 'fringe' armies.

I agree that three would be too much.


I think GW will do something in the middle. They can wrap the three Ordos up in a single Inquisition codex giving players the choice of mixing and matching units or picking 'fluffy' Grey Knight/SOB/Xenos only units. Streamline the unit choices to reduce the clutter in the list (as they have done in previous codices). And they can repackage the existing units into boxes to get rid of blisters. They can maybe add a few new character models or maybe Xenos units to pad out the range and it'll only take up one release 'slot.' It means they don't have to invest massive resources, they can keep the existing players 'relatively' happy and might tempt some new players with the cool, expanded background.

Presuming that it includes new plastics then I agree with you. Daemons allowed them to remove part of the metal range and this would be a chance for GW to do the same.


If they were smart they'd put a OX list in the new C:SM book. That way it'd make more sense and not clutter the regular novel.

Unless they decide to make the variety of the list MUCH larger.

For example, they could have 2 lists, Orthodox or Radical. Orthodox would be all Marines and Radical would allow varied alien units. Eldar, Tau, Kroot, a few made up races, and that way you could have the fluffy Kill team serving as aides with an alien force for an Alien vs Alien conflict. Say like in 2nd DW book they help Eldar fight Dark Eldar. I'd run a Small orthodox force, but the option would add dynamics to the list. After all, all the other =I= have both kinds, puritans and radicals.

I don't see the current market being that large. I may be wrong of course.

Kriegsherr
01-06-2008, 16:24
personally I'd like to see a separate Codex Sororitas again that swaps the inquisitorial stuff for more Ministorum madness.

Then they could put Sister squads as possible inducted squads into the Codex =I= much like marines or guard.

Would give Ministorum-War-of-Faith players like me more toys to play around without having to take (more or less) unfluffy inqs (sure sometimes they will be present in a war of faith, but then they'll act in the background much like on other "normal" campaigns of imperial armies) and more Ministorum/Sororitas-related fluff...

I know that some people just see soros as weak & cheap marines, but they are not... especially the insane Ministorum stuff, zealots and a more complex faith system would set them really apart from their "bigger brothers"

Sarevok
01-06-2008, 16:50
Jervis wants every codex to be entirely stand alone so no more allies either way.
SM and IG would not be able to take Inquisition units. Which might not be best for business or fluff though.

I think they will leave the army in limbo like Chaos Dwarfs, with maybe a White Dwarf update like Blood Angels got.

sabreu
01-06-2008, 18:19
I have similar views, and contradictory views, of how they could approach this. My primary view:

They should split Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle from the main list and make them into their own, respectable Codex (codeci). An Inquisition codex should focus on all the things only the Inquisition does: Inquisitors, Henchmen, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Arbites, Imperial Judges, Assassins, Antiquated Guard Tanks, Techpriests, Imperial Priests, Imperial Cultists and Fanatics, Flaggelants, etc.

Other views that could work theoretically:

Put the Inquisitor, Assassins, and Henchmen into the Guard codex. Put Grey Knights (upgradeable to GK Terminators) into the Space Marine Codex. Break Sisters of Battle into their own Codex. This is the easy, 'meh' option I thought of.

Make Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights (Terminators), and Deathwatch elites in a combined Inquisition codex. Grey Knight Grandmaster (HQ) lets Grey Knights become troops, Sisters of Battle Cannoness lets Sisters of battle become troops, Deathwatch Captain lets Deathwatch Killteams become troops. The three chamber militants have most options rolled into their entry to represent their various units. Inquisitor becomes more generic and ordo is reflected by wargear options and allows the use of an Assassin/Death Cultist as a troop choice (but not the mandatory). Throw in a Griffon Heavy Mortar in heavy support and a Salamander in Fast Attack and you get a pretty easy to do, self contained codex.

space_kitten
01-06-2008, 22:41
I don't think Ordo Xenos will get their own codex. Deathwatch are not really meant to be used in pitched battles, and so having them as troops does not make sense IMO. There is also the question of giving them other unique units. On the plus side, we do not know that much about the organisation of the Ordo Xenos (for example do they have access to any vehicles or special units) And this would be a chance for GW to write more fluff. Not sure if that will happen though...

Personally I would like a combined codex, but only if it did not leave out any units or details. This would make it larger. and probably more expensive, but I think it would be worth it as units such as ISTs and assassins can be used in different armies, so you could essentially have three armies available to you.

Ravening Wh0re
01-06-2008, 22:57
I'd like to add further to my post earlier about Death Watch.
Since the new veteran assault marines can deepstrike and assault, I think DW should be able to too

HiredSword.
01-06-2008, 23:40
ordo xenos seems to be a problem (even for the gw design team as they promised the codex a long time ago), what I suggest is expanding the fluff.

I imagine ordos xenos to be the most well travelled ordo, exploring strange worlds and always at the forefront of the empire's expanding grasp on the universe, finding new civilisations and technologies (and cleansing them). I can see them as self reliant most of the time as they will usually be a long way from human contact for years (centuries?) at a time. The marines that join are usually the first to see new constellations and races which would surely change them. To me, it would make sense to add techmarines/priests and magos biologis (I think that's what I mean) instead of inquisitors.

just a few thoughts.

misterboff
01-06-2008, 23:41
I think (hope) the Inquisition will eventually be redone as one codex.

On a side note, the allies chart in Apocalypse has them listed as just 'Inquisitorial Forces' - I think (hope) they did that with a future single codex in mind...

misterboff

Pavic
01-06-2008, 23:54
Also, is there confirmation on what was said about =][= having no fluff section in the new rulebook?

Has no body else seen the book? I was able to look it over on Saturday.

Not being a 40K player, I could not note a lot of changes. I did note that the vehicle defensive weapons had changed to str 4 or less, which does make more sense. Also, the vehicle weapon firing chart has changed. Walkers can fire all of there weapons no matter how far they move, while fast and standard vehicles remain the same. I can not remember much else and I did not look at the weapons, which I probably could have recognized differences in.

There really was not "section" in the fluff for the inquisition though. I am sure they were mentioned in the background pages, but each army had its own seperate fluff section. Heck, even the dark eldar got two pages (not front and back, so really just one page).

Spectral Dragon
02-06-2008, 04:35
Has no body else seen the book? I was able to look it over on Saturday.

Not being a 40K player, I could not note a lot of changes. I did note that the vehicle defensive weapons had changed to str 4 or less, which does make more sense. Also, the vehicle weapon firing chart has changed. Walkers can fire all of there weapons no matter how far they move, while fast and standard vehicles remain the same. I can not remember much else and I did not look at the weapons, which I probably could have recognized differences in.

There really was not "section" in the fluff for the inquisition though. I am sure they were mentioned in the background pages, but each army had its own seperate fluff section. Heck, even the dark eldar got two pages (not front and back, so really just one page).

If it comes down to it, I might be able to get a good look at the book sometime soonish when I go to a very large gaming store (Pandemonium) if they have it up at the time. I know they had the daemons codecis up before their release for preview long before they came out, so i'm hoping I can confirm a few things.

Dranthar
02-06-2008, 06:49
I think a unified inquisition codex is possible, but lets see just what would need to be included to allow everything that's normally associated with the respective ordos;

THE INQUISITION
Not much needs to change here and there's not alot of units that one would 'require' for this section anyway.

HQ: Inquistor Lord - Allows access to Assasins, daemonhosts and orbital bombardments, comes with a retinue and generic weapon/wargear options to allow player to 'theme' =I= towards any ordos or philosophy.

Elite: Daemonhosts, Assasins and Death Cultists

Troops: Storm Troopers.

Heavy Support: Orbital Bombardment.

GREY KNIGHTS
A few redundant units can be trimmed but the tricky bit is what to do with those PA grey knights. Ideally it'd be great to cut them all back down to terminators only but that ruins alot of players armies.

HQ: Grey Knights Grand Master - Allows power armoured grey knights to be taken as troops if teleport upgrade not taken.

ELITE: GK Terminators - can teleport for free, or take Land Raider as upgrade.

TROOPS: (none)

FAST ATTACK: Power armoured grey knights - comes with a compulsory teleport upgrade at X points (unless taken as troops, as above)

HEAVY SUPPORT: GK Dreadnought.


ADEPTUS SORITAS
Plenty of trimming for a minimal loss of variety, IMO. The repentia are dropped but I don't think many will mourne their loss, especially if they can be proxied into something else (see below).

HQ: Cannoness - Selection allows Sisters of Battle to be taken as troops.

ELITE: Sisters of Battle - 5-20 models, can take rhino or Immolator.

TROOPS: (none)

FAST ATTACK: Seraphim

HEAVY SUPPORT: Retributors and Exorcists.


DEATHWATCH
Might be the easiest to deal with simply because they've not been developed beyond a single unit. Of course the problem is trying to prevent overlap with those damn power armoured grey knights.

HQ: Deathwatch Master - Single captain-level profile with options to upgrade to librarian. Allows selection of Deathwatch Marines as troops and must(?) deploy attached to a Deathwatch killteam.

FAST ATTACK: Deathwatch Killteam - can take a rhino/razorback/drop pod and get infiltrate or scout as standard (vehicle included). Note that I've dropped teleport to prevent overlapping with the grey knights.


ADEPTUS MINISTORIUM
They're really not justified in coming into this codex, and are probably a damn good reason why them and the SOBs deserve a codex of their own. Still, one can but try...

HQ: Priest - allows access to zealots, arcoflaggelants and penitent engines, otherwise same rules as before...just not crap. ;)

ELITE: Arcoflaggelants

TROOPS: Zealots. Similar to the old WD rules, although any number can be upgraded with evicerators at an appropriate points cost (effectively allows repentia).

HEAVY SUPPORT: Penitent engines


Note that each section isn't mutually exclusive of each other, so if a player really wanted he could take an exorcist with the inquisitorial army, much like it is now.

So that's the entire three ordos, with extras, in a single codex. It's 5 HQs, 6 ELITE, 2 TROOPS (with options for 3 others with certain unit selections), 3 FAST ATTACK and 5 HEAVY SUPPORT for a total of 21 seperate units, which isn't too unreasonable in itself.

The trick however, is in making all those units distinct, and in fitting all their rules into a single codex. I think alot of streamlining would be necessary, with the SOBs, Death Watch and Grey Knights each getting their special rules cut down to something much shorter. I imagine Deathwatch would have preferred enemy vs. xenos and their special ammo, Grey Knights would get 1-2 rules that help them fight daemons (preferred enemy and something protective?) and the SOBs would have a cut-down version of their faith points rules.

Given the pattern of recent codecies, I imagine inducted guard and allied marines would disappear. It's a pity but it's probably warranted with so many distinct units running around.

cailus
02-06-2008, 07:42
Inqusitorial armies are an anathema to JJ's design philosophy - they use allies from other codexs, there models are mainly metal and they are packed with characterful fluff that restricts the armies you can build. Divine Guidance and inquisitorial retinues will go ("too complicated!") and no doubt we will have a major fluff rewrite to explain why these seperate forces team up all the time.

DH and WH will be murdered in any new codex, so just hope it doesn't happen.

Totally agree. A new codex will also probably mean compulsory special characters if you want to play pure Grey Knights or SoB.

It seems that having a codex rewrite is now something to be dreaded (look at Dark Angels and Chaos and even elements of the Ork codex).

Kettu
02-06-2008, 10:38
@Dranthar and most other peoples in the thread.

Which highlights perfectly why a unified =][= codex is a bad idea.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters compete to much as they all fulfill practically the same role on the battle field. We have Marines with Storm Bolters and ccws, Marines with bolters and hate aliens and we have sisters, whom now would have some kind of cut back faith system which is almost their sole unique aspect when standing next to marines in the same list.

Why do you think the current Witchhunters codex won't allow Marines and Sisters in the same list?
The only real plus there is five woman, flamer + heavy flamer in Immolator min-maxing that is sure to annoy anyone and everyone as a troop choice.

Exorcists are rare relics held by the Adeptus Ministorium which now will be seen in the hands of Inquisitors of all Ordos and their Chamber Militants.
Unless they gimp them.

Death Watch are an elite group taken from what is already an elite organisation who are deployed where their skills in combating the alien are seen not as simply useful but necessary.
Their kill teams will now accompany Grey Knights and Sisters as a standard fare, never know when Genestealer cults summon daemons after all.

Zealots, large groups of inexpensive chainfists? And all you need is a priest who doesn't take up a FOC slot and who's suicidal special rules become an advantage when he's in the squad? Do you have to ask?

Land Raiders are a Marine and =][= option only but now, even sisters can partake in the all-round 14 defence and, assuming the flame-raider is true, flamey goodness that is fluff-rape.

Not to mention the fluff ret-conning alone that needs to take place.

See with daemons, though it is a unlikely, it isn't impossible to imagine a Great Unclean One leading a horde of blue and pink horrors. Maybe they are an experiment of Nurgle; some strange form of agile nurgling? Perhaps the Unclean one is the victim of one of the fateweavers plans?
Hell he could even be the Changling having a laugh.

But Sisters, the well known guardians of the Church, the Deathwatch, the only semi-known hunters of the unending Xenos threat and the Grey Knights, the utterly unknown stalwart defenders against the horror of the Warp suddenly working together day in, day out as if they were simply different detachments of the same force requires a larger jump of logic that would be not only annoying but even offensive to some players just like the allegiance of the Daemons were to some.

Besides, there are problems with the alliance. Grey Knights normally purge all people are exposed to Daemons after the battle as so they canít pass on the taint.
Now, as it currently stands, you could explain off a squad or two of grey knights assisting a force but if the forces are merged, leaving players without much choice but to field a mixed force just to stay competitive there is a problem arising from the mixed ideologies of the Ordos and their Chamber Militants
Take Grey Knights and Sisters for example;
If the start to try to purge the Sisters after a battle they would fight back and it would easily drive a wedge between the organisations with potential for future violence between the groups.

I do really hope that sisters get their own codex or, should GW go ahead with the combined codex, that it is the largest one they have ever made so Sisters remain as a completely viable, fluffy, capable and competitive force. GK become a full army, DW become a full army and Inquisitors become a full army should you not wish to bring any Chamber Militant.

Also, I think there should be inducted PDF as a troops option and ally rules so Inquisitors and/or Assassins can be used with SM and IG. Especially the Assassins, Donít doom them to becoming an Inquisitor only option. My IG always have a Callidus or Vindicare to support them in the field of fire.

BrianC
02-06-2008, 11:12
I think the new Chaos Daemon codex has proved that GW can still produce a combined codex and not muck it up too much by making it inflexible. So if a combined =][= codex was done in the same fashion rather than what is being mooted for SM then I can see it being a real improvement over what we have currently. This obviously makes the assumption that they do not look to cut units from the range.

HiredSword.
02-06-2008, 11:34
I do know that some people weren't pleased with the fact gw tailored the daemon list so that you must include different god specific units to create a balanced force (one god armies become more restricted with maybe one unit type in each army slot). I definately do not want to see an inquisition codex which forces you to use all ordos in one list to make a competitive force. Not saying they will, but it can happen to a combined codex where choices must be restricted to make it viable.

Spectral Dragon
02-06-2008, 12:13
Templar Ben:

A good example of what you were asking are both the Daemon codex, where conflicting Daemon gods can ally, and the new CSM's, where you can use some Daemons.

Also, you used squats as an example of an army that they dropped, however the inquisition is far too engrained into the game to simply get rid of it. Squats were easy to get rid of for them, so they did.

Dranthar
02-06-2008, 13:01
Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters compete to much as they all fulfill practically the same role on the battle field. We have Marines with Storm Bolters and ccws, Marines with bolters and hate aliens and we have sisters, whom now would have some kind of cut back faith system which is almost their sole unique aspect when standing next to marines in the same list.
I'd argue that Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters can be done in a way that ensures that they don't overlap too much.

So long as the Deathwatch don't get to teleport, there's little overlap between them and Grey Knights besides both being marines in power armour. They are both somewhat specialised towards fighting different foes and with some semi-intelligent balancing, you could give both different roles on the battlefield against more generic foes (ie. grey knights better in long ranged firefights, Deathwatch better in rapid fire range...both still good in combat of course, but in their own ways like scorpions vs. Banshees). Sisters, of course, are cheap compared to the marines and would get some faith system (note that 'cut back' doesn't necesarilly have to mean made worse or more 'boring'). I doubt their role would be compromised by including grey knights and deathwatch as options.



Exorcists are rare relics held by the Adeptus Ministorium which now will be seen in the hands of Inquisitors of all Ordos and their Chamber Militants.
Unless they gimp them.
Too late. Exorcists are not SOB-only units and in fact forgeworld still does a more generic version of the exorcist. It's currently quite feasible to include a trio of exorcists in an inquisitorial army supported by piles of grey knights.


Their kill teams will now accompany Grey Knights and Sisters as a standard fare, never know when Genestealer cults summon daemons after all.
People said the same about the Chaos Marines codex. Hell, even in the current Ordos books there's the option of mix 'n' matching grey knights and sisters. Ultimately it's always been up to the player to decide whether to take a themed army or to butcher the background for a WAAC list. In a united ordos list like I suggested above nothing would change in that respect.


Zealots, large groups of inexpensive chainfists?
Did I say 'inexpensive'? Like the current repentia, taking a bunch of chainfists would obviously have a steep cost to go with it. When I put that in I didn't think someone would assume that massed chainfists would be cheap.


Land Raiders are a Marine and =][= option only but now, even sisters can partake in the all-round 14 defence and, assuming the flame-raider is true, flamey goodness that is fluff-rape.
This is already possible in current books, yet I see nobody doing it. Of course Land Raiders could always be limited to dedicated transports for GK terminators and Inquisitors rather than a seperate Heavy support choice. This is actually what I was suggesting in my above post.

So far, I haven't seen anything you've brought up about that isn't already possible in the current codeci.


I do really hope that sisters get their own codex or, should GW go ahead with the combined codex, that it is the largest one they have ever made so Sisters remain as a completely viable, fluffy, capable and competitive force. GK become a full army, DW become a full army and Inquisitors become a full army should you not wish to bring any Chamber Militant.
I'd like to see each ordos become a full army too (like the curent books), but that doesn't seem to be the approach GW is taking. Allied units seem to be dissappearing as an option and given the redundancy between the Ordos, the logical conclusion is any new Inquisitor book will probably have all three Ordos in one list.
I think it's still possible that they'd do a seperate book for each ordos, but it's not what I'm putting my money on.


Also, I think there should be inducted PDF as a troops option and ally rules so Inquisitors and/or Assassins can be used with SM and IG. Especially the Assassins, Donít doom them to becoming an Inquisitor only option. My IG always have a Callidus or Vindicare to support them in the field of fire.
So you would have your IG army with an assasin hanging around all the time without the supervision of an inquisitor? Who's raping the fluff now? ;)

Kettu
02-06-2008, 14:07
@Dranthar


Too late. Exorcists are not SOB-only units and in fact forgeworld still does a more generic version of the exorcist. It's currently quite feasible to include a trio of exorcists in an inquisitorial army supported by piles of grey knights.

...

This is already possible in current books, yet I see nobody doing it. Of course Land Raiders could always be limited to dedicated transports for GK terminators and Inquisitors rather than a separate Heavy support choice. This is actually what I was suggesting in my above post.

So far, I haven't seen anything you've brought up about that isn't already possible in the current codices.


Currently there is two codices and, yes, there is the option of mix 'n matching however both codices are, largely, stand alone. However, you are limited in some options. Sisters can't get Land Raiders sans an Inquisiy transport (and only the standard one, no mention of the crusader type), Grey Knights can't get Exorcists. (Who else has them anyway? I havenít seen any other list out there that wasn't from the Codex Witchhunters.)


I'd argue that Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters can be done in a way that ensures that they don't overlap too much.

So long as the Deathwatch don't get to teleport, there's little overlap between them and Grey Knights besides both being marines in power armour. They are both somewhat specialised towards fighting different foes and with some semi-intelligent balancing, you could give both different roles on the battlefield against more generic foes (ie. grey knights better in long ranged firefights, Deathwatch better in rapid fire range...both still good in combat of course, but in their own ways like scorpions vs. Banshees). Sisters, of course, are cheap compared to the marines and would get some faith system (note that 'cut back' doesn't necesarilly have to mean made worse or more 'boring'). I doubt their role would be compromised by including grey knights and deathwatch as options.

Grey Knights have stormbolters. However their only other options are the psycannon or that blessed flamer of theirs. They kinda have to settle for close quarter fire fights anyway.

Explain what 'cut back' means in terms of faith system? Cause, short of making something akin to psychic powers there isn't really a way I can think of to lessen the acts of faith. And even then, something small that could be utilised every turn is a case of two steps forward three steps back as they were given a more powerful version of faith acts from their WD list because the previous one seemed to standardised for what is meant to be the odd miracle or two happening because of their faith.

About the competition, It is happening currently in the WH codex, Unless the list is themed, sisters almost always get chosen over storm troopers due to simply being a better option.
If the choice is between a ws4 bs4 s4 t4 or a ws3 bs4 s3 t3 for only three or so points, and given that marines are typically more versatile then sisters anyway.


So you would have your IG army with an assassin hanging around all the time without the supervision of an inquisitor? Who's raping the fluff now?

I, unfortunately, lost my copy of Codex: Assassins awhile back but in which, if I remember correctly, it said that the orders to deploy assassins come from the highest echelons of the Imperial office, namely the high lords themselves. However as sometimes they could remained uninformed for long periods of time, sometimes people down the ranks a bit may authorise the deployment of an assassin, namely the inquisition. There is even mentioned in some other fluff source that there was a minor order of the Inquisition that oversaw the Assassin temples.

No where in the last fourteen years do I ever remember reading that an Inquisitor Must be present to oversee an assassin except in the two =][= codices as a rule to, assumably, prevent assassins from being exploited (cause, you know, their 100+ point cost is only there for show).

My IG currently have an Inquisitor run with them so I can use an assassin in the first place. Fluff wise my army has had to become the private army of Inquisitor Thistle however I would much rather them to not have to have the Inquis with them (damn 100+ points of near uselessness) and I have even played several games with permission from my opponent before hand to not include the Inquisy but allow the assassin.

This isn't fluff rape, they don't even give a fluff reason in the codices.

Russell's teapot
02-06-2008, 14:30
Well, I can see the lot being split into 3 Codexes. I would see it as:

Codex Inquisition
Inquisitors
Crazy stuff (death cult assasins, assassins, arco's, deamonhosts etc)
=][= stormtroopers
Inducted guard (maybe different options to 'real' IG, or have different FoC slots e.g hellhounds in Heavy Support)
Zealots & mobs (like the WD stuff, or maybe LaTD rabbles)
Deathwatch (like allied SM, but actually in the codex)

Codex Sisters of Battle
Pretty much as they are now
Maybe some new land raiders/ stuff
Maybe some Inquisitors/Eclisiasts
Maybe stormtroopers (or female troops to support the 'no men under arms)

Codex Grey Knights
As it is now, but hopefully with some useful special rules, decent powers & helpful guns...
Maybe some Inquisitors
Maybe stormtroopers

I'd expect that the first 2 could be made as full codexes, but I rekon that the GK one will not have enough to warrant it & end up in WD.

Just my 2 cents...

Ravening Wh0re
02-06-2008, 17:00
Take Grey Knights and Sisters for example;
If the start to try to purge the Sisters after a battle they would fight back and it would easily drive a wedge between the organisations with potential for future violence between the groups.

Not to mention that my Sisters would not stand the Gray Knights themselves. Gotta burn those witches :)

40kdhs
02-06-2008, 18:33
Originally Posted by Kettu
Take Grey Knights and Sisters for example;
If the start to try to purge the Sisters after a battle they would fight back and it would easily drive a wedge between the organisations with potential for future violence between the groups.


It's a training excercise if they meet. SoB is smart enough to know that being around with GKs in the battle field is a bad idea. GKs don't want to be with SoB because daemons keep them busy all years.

I don't like a combined I codex because it's going to be like a Oxford dictionary. I want to see a GK codex.

Khornies & milk
02-06-2008, 21:31
It's a training excercise if they meet. SoB is smart enough to know that being around with GKs in the battle field is a bad idea. GKs don't want to be with SoB because daemons keep them busy all years.

I don't like a combined I codex because it's going to be like a Oxford dictionary. I want to see a GK codex.

I can't see them doing a strictly GK Codex...what would they do with the DH Inquisition, or WH for that matter?
I can't see them doing a
GK Codex
SoB Codex
combined Inquisition Codex.
They had a SoB Codex before, so I can't see them going back to it, and making an additional codex, so 3 in total, when there is currently 2...nah!
And don't forget Deathwatch.

GW are going to have a really hard time working out what to do with the Inquisition I reckon, and I think that the Bean Counters are going to have a huge influence on how they deal with it....which is scary.

I think the upcoming FAQ's will be a good indicator of what GW's current position is with regards to the Inquisition as a whole. If they are in-depth FAQ's that sort out ALL the issues that have plagued our lists then it'll show that GW care. If they are just something they copy and pasted and worked on with minimum effort, then I say we're in deep do-do.

burning crome
02-06-2008, 22:12
Ok I’m going to nail my colures to the mast here and say I like inq. I think their cool (they could do with a bit of a CC upgrade but still cool) and fluff wise I can see any reason why either GK or sisters would act independently of them. Gk because their so elite and can’t be ordered around by anyone else, and sister because their not allowed (I think I’m right I saying that they where put under the control of the inq to stop another rain-of-blood). And I can’t see why you wish to anyway?

The problem with separating the GK or sisters from the inq is that any separate list would need another HQ. While there are candidates such as a GK Chaplin and confessor/upgraded priest, it would mean losing the assassins (or at least more than one since you probably could ally in an inq like any other army). Most “pure list” I see still really on versatility that they give.

The may second point might not seem to make sense but bare with me. Any re-do other any a simple update of either codex would mean they have to balanced and completive!. And yes you/me don’t want that. It would mean that every option and upgrade would have to considered and play-tested (in this torny driven age), resulting in the loss of most of the armory and upgrades and some units simply though time constrictions or considered unnecessary. Ok Gk as a pure list don’t have may options as it is so would loss much. But I’m quit worried about my inq options being charges to a list of just half a dozen bland choices.

Xollob
02-06-2008, 22:43
what can i say make grey knights cheaper, and increase the leadership of the sisters of battle, alsl give options for inquisitors to increase strenght, toughness and ws/bs to represent cyborgisation, or allow for the fact that space marines occasionally play at being the spanish inquisition. Also make the sisters repentia cheaper as well or increase their weapon skill or attacks to represent the fact that there all super mad bunny boilers

Oh and plastics, plastic sisters of battle definatley a must

40kdhs
03-06-2008, 02:03
If you remove GK and SoB stuffs from DH and WH codex, what do you have.? Pretty much an IG army with inquisitors.

If GW includes assassins in IG army, GKs and SoB can have their own codex. What happens to Orbital strike.? They are removed because they suck any way. Who cares.? IG basilik is better.

Is it a good reason to have GK and SoB codex.? I think that it's a brilliant idea.

Dach
03-06-2008, 02:26
what can i say make grey knights cheaper, and increase the leadership of the sisters of battle, alsl give options for inquisitors to increase strenght, toughness and ws/bs to represent cyborgisatio.

Grey Knight CHEAPER?!?

no that's wrong, they are Grey Knight man.

Remember that quote?!

"We're here because you are looking for the best of the best of the best, sir!"

These are the elite of the elite!! We don't want them cheaper, we want them better!!!

And Inquisitor are human, if you want better stat please play space marine...

If any didn't see my post on Daemonhunter here the link:

http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2661958&postcount=39

CaptainAdama
03-06-2008, 02:54
GW are going to have a really hard time working out what to do with the Inquisition I reckon, and I think that the Bean Counters are going to have a huge influence on how they deal with it....which is scary.

For a second there, I thought that read "Ben Counter's going to have a huge influence...". Now that would be scary.

On the subject, I agree a little bit with every point of view, which makes me crazy. I've been a Sisters of Battle player for over a decade, and I love the current version of the rules. I love using a force of all Sisters with a whole pile of Faith to play with (remind me to tell you about the time my Canoness killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat...). Equally, I love adding in Ministorum weirdness, Inquistors and their entourages, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard...at the moment, I'm also using Sisters as some extra close-range shooting in my Space Marine army. I think that as armies for "advanced" gamers, Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters are spot on.

Here's the rub - can GW continue to justify having these "niche" armies for "advanced" gamers? If so, then no problem! Just put an Ordo Xenos book on the agenda and add revisions to the Malleus and Hereticus ones (waaaaay) down the line. Don't mess with the formula, and make the books mail order only to prevent little Timmy buying them, thus causing his head to explode ("But...but....what's an Armoury? Where are the rules for these allies?")

If they can't justify this, then we have a problem. Either they remove them from the game and fold the existing models into Space Marine and Imperial Guard books, or they do one book with vastly reduced options, no choices and no "complicated" special rules like Faith. This will be less fun, but as long as I can use my beautiful 12-year old Battle Sister models, I don't really mind.

So, in answer to the OP's original question - I want my Sisters to be playable. I have no idea what is likely, but as long as Ben Counter's not involved, I'll deal with it.

burning crome
03-06-2008, 03:03
Dach while I agree GK should get a bit of an upgrade(free targeter/frag a good idea) and not a point drop, some of your other stuff really a bit over the top, and I like orbital strike as it is!!

Dach
03-06-2008, 03:22
you like paying about 70 point for something that will NEVER hit (i mean the original target area) for at best 5 round of fire?

I know you must put it where they are no troop because the blast will not stay there...

But what is the percentage of chance the arrow hit the direction you wanted? and then the right number of inch? (worst scatter of the game between 1" and 12" AND then people still get a cover save if they get hit mostly cause they are in the damn cover you need to target anyway...

Strange idea these days...

What idea you think is over the top? you could be more specific. (if you don't want to go too much off topic, just answer in the other tread.)

I've seen way worse on many treads about custom GK codex, Seriously I'm really on the soft side compared to thing I saw :angel:

Dranthar
03-06-2008, 04:18
Currently there is two codices and, yes, there is the option of mix 'n matching however both codices are, largely, stand alone.
That's largely subjective - the only thing that might stop someone using SOBs and Grey Knights together is some attitude that they 'shouldn't' use units from two different codecies. Just like the Chaos Marines codex and their cult units, the option is has always been there for grey knights and sisters to work side-by side.


However, you are limited in some options. Sisters can't get Land Raiders sans an Inquisiy transport (and only the standard one, no mention of the crusader type), Grey Knights can't get Exorcists. (Who else has them anyway? I havenít seen any other list out there that wasn't from the Codex Witchhunters.)
Take a daemonhunters army, add a brother captain and fill out the HS slots with Land Raiders. Now add a few SOB units as per the allies rules and you now have a land Raider that can freely transport SOBs.

Same with exorcists. You can very easily take a witchunters army with a HQ, 2 troops, 3 exorcists and the allies slots filled out with grey knights.


Grey Knights have stormbolters. However their only other options are the psycannon or that blessed flamer of theirs. They kinda have to settle for close quarter fire fights anyway.
I'm running on the assumption that GW is capable of changing the rules for (eg.) grey knights to fit a certain role without compromising their theme.


Explain what 'cut back' means in terms of faith system?
I don't intend to try because this is all theory on a book which may never even come to exist. All I'll say is that I don't think it necessarilly requires a page of rules to represent the acts of faith in a distinctive and interesting way. Hell, just look at the wood elf wardancer rules or the Dark Eldar combat drugs for examples.


About the competition, It is happening currently in the WH codex, Unless the list is themed, sisters almost always get chosen over storm troopers due to simply being a better option.
If the choice is between a ws4 bs4 s4 t4 or a ws3 bs4 s3 t3 for only three or so points, and given that marines are typically more versatile then sisters anyway.
I think your forgetting that Deathwatch and grey knights, as they are, are generally at least 10 points more expensive, per model, than SOBs. Furthermore I'd argue that it's not impossible to change their rules to make all three units viable. Just giving them different roles on the battlefield should help things in that respect.


No where in the last fourteen years do I ever remember reading that an Inquisitor Must be present to oversee an assassin except in the two =][= codices as a rule to, assumably, prevent assassins from being exploited (cause, you know, their 100+ point cost is only there for show).

This isn't fluff rape, they don't even give a fluff reason in the codices.

I'm not going to discuss the fluffiness of an assasin in IG armies without an inquisitor, not in the least because I was simply having a jab. ;)

Weaver
03-06-2008, 04:22
given Jervis's...erm...predilection for vivisecting armies, I have to say I agree with my fellow prophets of doom concerning the fate of the Forces of the Inquisition. I think that if any Inquisiton books are released in the future, then they will be clumped under one heading - The Inquisition Lite (tm). This will include under it's heading something like this:

HQ

Lord Inquisitor, Ecclesiarchy Delegation (Perhaps with a priestly IC or options for a Pontifex Guard)

Elites
Inquisitors, Daemonhosts, Imperial Assassains,

Troops
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. More options to make them distinct from Guard Storm Troopers perhaps?

Fast Attack
Death Cult Assassains, Arco-Flagellants, (Modified of course to be faster; perhaps Arco Flagellants would gain fleet of foot sans penalties currently in state)

Heavy Support
Penitent Engines, Exorcists, Russes,

Now, of course, this is a partial wishlist, but the premise remains in tact; I can easily see the Inquisition being generalized, but not combined in the manner Daemons was. Instead of the Specific Ordos, we now have the Vanilla Inquisitor, and his household army of stormtroopers, personal attendants, Ecclesiastic loonies, personal armoured vehicle collections, servitors, butlers, kitchen scullions, and kitchen sinks,

Since Sisters of Battle have garnered something of a following in conventional circuits, it would then be easy to see a reincarnation of Codex: SoB (yes, they'll probably need to change the name...)

as for Daemonhunters....I can see them and Deathwatch relegated to a WD/Online army list (c.f. Kroot Mercs). Perhaps this online release system maintains the allies rule while mainstream codices abandon it (catering to that aformentioned 'advanced' player). These forces could be tacked on to a Codex Inquisition Army to represent their Chamber Militant.

Now, of course, the other option is to completely relegate the Inquisition to Chapter Approved style releases; this also seems like an option for these mythical 'advanced' players. Much like the entries in the Chapter Approved Articles immediately prior to the release of Codex: Daemonhunters. This of course, much to the chagrin of the current players of pureblood Inquisitorial Forces, but at least they'd make it into the ruleset somehow.

Ronin_eX
03-06-2008, 05:11
What I'd like to see is an all inclusive Imperial Agents codex containing various units that can be used in concert with each other or can be used along with the other Imperial forces (Guard and Marines).

I envision something like an expanded "Black Codex" from 2nd edition that had rules for the Adeptus Ministorum, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Officio Assassinorum and the Inquisition (all three branches) as well as Grey Knights and Deathwatch.

The AdMech would have their Tech Priests and maybe a return of the Electro Priests and Servitor Squads (as well as some cool on-field support weapons and maybe new vehicles). The Ministorum list would include Sisters of Battle and other Esccliarchy units. The Assassins and Telepath lists would contain some support characters (assassins and psykers, natch). There could be a small Arbites list (some characters and a squad or two). The Inquisitorial lists would have the usuals like Storm Troopers, the Deathwatch and Grey Knights as well as more radical units (Daemonhosts and such).

It would be a great way to show off diversity in Imperial forces as well as allowing more theme options for Guard since doctrines seem to be going out the window in this edition. It would be simply awesome if we got an all inclusive Imperial Agents list again.

edit - It occurs to me that they could add an adversarial section with Cultists and Mutants in it to make a Lost and the Damned list possible (well for the most part, it would be more like the old 2nd edition Cultist force). The more I think about it the more I want this to happen and the less I think it will. :p

New Cult King
03-06-2008, 05:46
All of the Orders Militant could be cast in plastic. That's a start. I absolutely adore the idea of GK, but hate the minis. The termies are okay-ish I guess, but the power armoured guys are failtastic.