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krag123
31-05-2008, 17:44
While reading the HH books I am starting to wonder why the Empire went with Thunderhawks and not the Warbird.

By all accounts the warbirds were a better craft. They had a larger capacity for troops and seemed to pack much more fire power then the Thunderhawk can. Even Horus deemed the craft to be not worth his time and effort to even guard them.

So where did the Warbird go? Why are they no longer around to be used by the Space Marines? What made the Thunderhawk more appealing to be used by modern day Space Marines?

Dominus_Serui
31-05-2008, 17:50
I would have thought given the smaller size of Marine chapters the need wasn't as great for them anymore...but they are somewhat still in existance if one goes by some of the older fluff that they're drawn from...if not, its probably gone the way of allot of tech, the STC could have been lost.

biggreengribbly
31-05-2008, 17:54
Wasn't it the Stormbird?

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
31-05-2008, 18:00
I believe the Stormbird (or a variant) lives on as the Epic scale Landing Craft. Not sure, tho.

krag123
31-05-2008, 18:01
Sorry I think your right, it may have been Stormbird.

The question still stands though.

Its possible the STC's have been lost, one of the great problems of the Empire, is that it seems no one is really capable of just making something new or improving upon what is already there.

Condottiere
31-05-2008, 18:12
So where did the Warbird go? Why are they no longer around to be used by the Space Marines? What made the Thunderhawk more appealing to be used by modern day Space Marines?

Is it possible that some bureaucrat decided that the Thunderhawk was a more efficient use of resources? I'm not saying that's correct, but when you look at some of the decisions that Defense agencies make regarding equipment, you might wonder if that wouldn't apply to the future as well.

Flame Boy
31-05-2008, 18:29
Well, when space marine chapters are as small as they are now, I doubt a chapter master would want to risk placing more than 30 soldiers in one landing craft at a time. A missile attack, some unexpected AA guns or a mechanical failure with a Thunderhawk could cost the chapter almost a third of a company as it is. I don't think they want to put all their eggs in the same basket.

PondaNagura
31-05-2008, 18:58
it's also just a numbers in general, there's no need to maintain such large crafts, when there aren't the numbers that would even use them at full capacity.
also few circumstances call for the deployment of a marine company, tend to be those most dire, that require other troops called in as well.

The Anarchist
31-05-2008, 19:29
I woul have to agree with the arguments for eggs in one basket, and effiecnet resorces already stated. would also like to add, Stormbirds are seen as more difficult to maintain, so during the herasy this would ahve been a major issue, and later with space marines having to maintain all their equipment themselves raterh than armies of menials like in the legions.
another factor might have been as Gulliman wanted the Marines neutered as an actual force, so chose to gove them smaller less combat able bit more agile and stealth active transport ships.

Condottiere
31-05-2008, 20:00
I think that as far as Marines are concerned, they want a way to transport them to the surface with minimum losses, whether it's by a craft that's more easier to overlook or miss, or one that can take more damage.

But I doubt that the intent is to neuter them, as it would make them ineffective. The limitation on absolute size of the chapters and decentralized command and control would have accomplished sufficient to keep each chapter on a long enough leash.

Koryphaus
31-05-2008, 21:11
Word Bearers use Stormbirds in Dark Apostle. Now I know what they are, thanks!

DarkAzrael169
31-05-2008, 22:20
Ya I think The Emperor's Children Primarch(Can't think of name) had a personal stormbird variant that was supposedely made of badass. I believe it was called The Warbird(IE: The Phoenix, another nickname for that primarch). The Chaos space marines use stormbirds just because its their style and they still have them from the heresy. Space Marines are in Chapters and you really wouldn't want to put to many of your limited supply of guys in one ship persae.

Dominus_Serui
01-06-2008, 00:00
Fulgrim was called the Phoenix? This is new news to me....as for the CSM's using Heresy Era tech...well...they use MOST tech given they don't have the choice....its pretty likely that you could find CSM's using Valkyries if it came down to need.

schoon
01-06-2008, 01:46
I think like many other things used during the Horus Heresy, the knowledge of their construction was lost, so as the old Stormbirds eventually succumbed to age or destruction, they were replaced by Thunderhawks.

In much the same way as BFG, where traitor forces use older ship designs, so it happens with Space Marines.

Steve54
01-06-2008, 09:49
In the HH books they are described as being phased out even then - so smaller chapters is not a factor.
Perhaps the most obvious explanation is that they were somewhere in size between the Thunderhawk and the Landing Craft and with the adoption of those as Marine transports were largely redundant.A small strikeforce would take a thawk a larger force would take a Lcraft and then have their rhinos with them

Chaos and Evil
01-06-2008, 10:19
Stormbirds (Or a variant of them) are still used by the Space Marines, only now they're known as the Landing Craft and they look like this: http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110301025&orignav=300808

They are one of the nine reasons why Epic is awesome.

RCgothic
01-06-2008, 11:27
Fulgrim's stormbird was the Firebird. That landing craft looks like a thunderhawk transporter (maybe 50+ bigger). That the rear turrets look like predator turrets backs that up.

schoon
01-06-2008, 22:40
Stormbirds (Or a variant of them) are still used by the Space Marines, only now they're known as the Landing Craft and they look like this: http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110301025&orignav=300808
I'm not so sure of that. I think the Epic Landing Craft is something else entirely.

In the HH books Stormbirds are described as less boxy than the Thunderhawk, and that miniature doesn't really fit the bill - it looks much more like a vehicle transport than a troop transport.

DarkAzrael169
02-06-2008, 00:52
Ahh thats right, forgot the correct name. Fulgrim wasn't directly addressed as the Phoenix, but he is des... Just read the last paragraph of Fulgrim(the HH book) and you'll get the jist.

krag123
02-06-2008, 02:16
Well I'm glad i was able to put up a topic that got some good discussion going on.

You have made many valid points as to why they are not used anymore. Would have been nice to see an image of one though.

shadowhawk2008
02-06-2008, 05:59
Ya I think The Emperor's Children Primarch(Can't think of name) had a personal stormbird variant that was supposedely made of badass. I believe it was called The Warbird(IE: The Phoenix, another nickname for that primarch). The Chaos space marines use stormbirds just because its their style and they still have them from the heresy. Space Marines are in Chapters and you really wouldn't want to put to many of your limited supply of guys in one ship persae.

Primarch - Fulgrim 'The Phoenician'.:angel:
His private spacecraft - The Phoenix.;)

pookie
02-06-2008, 11:05
Well, when space marine chapters are as small as they are now, I doubt a chapter master would want to risk placing more than 30 soldiers in one landing craft at a time. A missile attack, some unexpected AA guns or a mechanical failure with a Thunderhawk could cost the chapter almost a third of a company as it is. I don't think they want to put all their eggs in the same basket.

yet they stick em in ametal containers that look a little like egss and 'fire' them at a planet.... :angel:

Chaos and Evil
02-06-2008, 11:21
I'm not so sure of that. I think the Epic Landing Craft is something else entirely.

In the HH books Stormbirds are described as less boxy than the Thunderhawk, and that miniature doesn't really fit the bill - it looks much more like a vehicle transport than a troop transport.

The Landing Craft can carry 60 infantry (Compared to a Thunderhawk's 30).

In addition it can carry six Rhino hulls or four Land Raider hulls.

It is Damage Capacity 4 with a re-rollable 4+ armour save... bearing in mind that a Warhound Titan has Damage Capacity 3 with a re-rollable 5+ armour save, that makes the Landing Craft incredibly tough to kill.

It's armed with 3x twin heavy bolters and 2x twin lascannon turrets.

It's basically a Stormbird, or a variant thereof.

Puffin Magician
02-06-2008, 12:17
The Landing Craft can carry 60 infantry (Compared to a Thunderhawk's 30).
In addition it can carry six Rhino hulls or four Land Raider hulls.
It is DC4, 4+RA... that makes the Landing Craft incredibly tough to kill.
Well C&E, you made the point for me. With stats like that no way is the Landing Craft a derivative of the Stormbird. 60 infantry vs 60 infantry and 6 tanks is a huge difference in size and performance, and the Landing Craft is durable because it's pretty big.
The Landing Craft is a modern company dropship that lands supporting forces whereas the Stormbird was simply a slightly more spacious forerunner to the Thunderhawk combat gunship. They might share design features but not the same lineage and are not basically identical. C-5A vs. C-130.

Why aren't they used any longer?
a) Design requirements surpassed by Thunderhawk.
b) Perhaps their Machine Spirits [if they had them] were more succeptable to Daemonic Possession, just like how the Astartes don't use Dreadclaws anymore.
c) Eggs in one basket theory; 60-100 Marines is a much more significant loss to a Chapter "nowadays" than to a Legion in M30.
d) All of the above.
e) Or something else, but it ain't no Landing Craft.