PDA

View Full Version : Noxious Vapours vs Chargers.



SPYDER68
01-06-2008, 04:04
Noxious vapors says a enemy loses the Always strike first Rule and models always strike last.

Now what happens vs a unit that charges since it says chargers go first.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-06-2008, 05:40
Well, Noxious Vapors makes them always strike last, rather than have the always-strike-last rule, so technically I think they still strike, er, last.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
01-06-2008, 12:53
Yeah. The point of the gift is, primarily, "All Enemies in base-to-base with your Daemon will strike LAST".

They add the extra bits about "if they have it" and "Always Strikes First" - to assure even the High Elf players that it DOES work on their vaunted units too....hehehe...;)

yorch
01-06-2008, 14:22
Exactly, they strike last. The ASF comment emphasizes the fact that you'll always strike last, no matter who you are.

So, in a combat between a charging unit and the PBs with herald & nouxious vapours, the attack order should be:

1) Charging miniatures not in contact with the herald
2) Herald and surviving PBs
3) The rest of the chargers, if they are still alive :evilgrin:

T10
03-06-2008, 15:10
It seems presumptuous to assume that the Gift redefines the "Who strikes first" rules. It merely places two conditions on the affected models:

- They lose their First Strike ability (as applicable)
- They always strike last.

In the normal order of things "always strike last" is a special rule described in the weapons rules, and this provides ample description on how to deal with situations where you "always strike last".

Now you can ignore this and chest-thumpingly proclaim that the Noxious Vapors trump these rules. I prefer to apply the always strike last rules from the weapons section as they help resolve the situation where a model with Noxious vapors fights another model with the same Gift.

-T10

SPYDER68
03-06-2008, 19:11
Its really a tossup, probly a roll even.

ones with Strike last rule from weapons etc, they strike first when they charge.

Ones that have Strike first special rule lose it, but if they charge, they still strike first due to the charging rule ?

Only way to really know is a FaQ to be honest, its 2 rules that contradict eachother. yes it says strike last, but charging also says they strike first, not have the strike first rule, and Noxious only says you lose the strike first rule, (ie high elves strike first, not from charging).

Who knows, yay for crappy rules wording.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
03-06-2008, 23:11
No, it's pretty clear that Noxious is a two-parter, as T10 described. It's not JUST designed to stop models that have Always Strikes First, but they mention it so those players know that it works EVEN on their ASF models too.

The effect is that the affected models will strike last.

This means chargers, etc. - the only time you would have an issue is if TWO Heralds of Nurgle with this gift faced each other in close-combat. In that situation, I think you would just roll a 4+ to see which of the two gifts took precedence for that round (similiar to how GW has ruled on other things like Annoyance of Nettlings + Dreadlance.........:rolleyes:).

SPYDER68
04-06-2008, 00:11
That is not how it is listed thou, it nowhere says anything about ones charging, it only says ones that have first strike special rule lose it.

Then is says the other models strike last.

Now, when a model charges he strikes first, and its then 2x conflicting rules, strike last vs strike first. It no where says they lose first strike from Charging.

Basically, Bad wording in the codex.

Lord Aries
04-06-2008, 00:34
Not bad wording... the wording is just fine. Its the idiots trying to read into it, and make **** up.

theunwantedbeing
04-06-2008, 00:37
It's very clear in the wording.

All enemy models in base contact lose ASF and always strike last.

It doesnt say anything about charging as it doesnt need to.
Are you in base contact with the daemon?
Yes.
You strike last.

Very simple. Very clear.

No offence SPYDER68 but I do not belive you have read the rules for the item properly when you have replied to the posts.
Hence your belief that the wording is bad.
Also....it's not called a codex.(pet peeve of mine)

T10
04-06-2008, 10:43
Pah. : dismissive hand-wave :

-T10

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 10:49
Taking the case of Noxious vapours Vs Noxious vapours and ASF in a multiple combat:

e.g. Unit (A) has NV is in combat with units (P) and (Q). P also has NV while Q has ASF. Unit (B), allied with (A) is in btb with (Q) only.

Dice roll to decide seems a reasonable solution:
1) If (A) wins the dice roll - no problems (P) and (Q) strike last
2) If (P) wins the dice roll then (Q) strikes first against both (B) and (A)?

T10
04-06-2008, 10:52
DD, your posts are only barely readable. Netsp33k hurts the eyes more, but still.

Does every post you make look like an equation?

-T10

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 11:17
Sorry I meant to say

ds2 = (1-2GM/rc2)/(1-2GM/RC2) dct - r2 (dQ2 + sin2QdQ):p

Not very good at drawing so I'l put the question in words

What happens when 2 units, one with Nox Vap is in combat with 2 enemy units, one with Nox Vap. and the other with ASF. If this is resolved by a dice roll could the ASF unit retain its ASF.

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 12:12
What happens when 2 units, one with Nox Vap is in combat with 2 enemy units, one with Nox Vap. and the other with ASF. If this is resolved by a dice roll could the ASF unit retain its ASF.

You would dice for the 2 units with Nox Vap but the ASF unit would still lose it's ASF.

StormCrow
04-06-2008, 14:45
What happens when 2 units, one with Nox Vap is in combat with 2 enemy units, one with Nox Vap. and the other with ASF. If this is resolved by a dice roll could the ASF unit retain its ASF.

Doesn't noxious vapours only affect models in contact with the herald, not the whole unit? Sorry if I'm missing the point but i think that would affect this particular scenario.

SPYDER68
04-06-2008, 16:54
It's very clear in the wording.

All enemy models in base contact lose ASF and always strike last.

It doesnt say anything about charging as it doesnt need to.
Are you in base contact with the daemon?
Yes.
You strike last.

Very simple. Very clear.

No offence SPYDER68 but I do not belive you have read the rules for the item properly when you have replied to the posts.
Hence your belief that the wording is bad.
Also....it's not called a codex.(pet peeve of mine)


If you dont like me calling it a codex and if it bothers you that bad, maybe you should just not read my posts because i dont care and ill call it whatever the hell i want mmk ?



And 2nd i think they do lose first strike i always thought they should from charging, but it has been argued where i play it doesnt and its a roll off, what am i suppost to gain with just hearing 1-2 people say yea they strike last, i want why they strike last, which is a tossup since it says they only lose the strike first special rule if they have it. That is the ONLY STRIKE FIRST they lose. Where does it say they lose strike first from charging ? Where does it say they dont get that strike first at all, in other cases models that have strike last charge they STILL strike first when they charge.

That is what i haft to explain why they dont get the strike first from charging and auto strike last.

Is that to hard for some of you to understand ?

for one i want them to always strike last, i play daemons, and i have been running the nurgle unit.

Grogugluk
05-06-2008, 00:14
It specifically says "and always strike last"

How much more clear can you get?

When something says always strike last and even includes something just in case the enemy has the ASF rule I think thats about as clear as you can get.


For 25 Points its pretty nice on a herald. I don't think I'd get it with the GUO since he has so many wounds anyways.


But for 25 points you go first all the time.. pretty fair bargain to me.

Grog

decker_cky
05-06-2008, 00:23
It's not the same strikes last as a great weapon has, it's ALWAYS strikes last. It also specifically trumps ASF, so really, it works down to everything in BTB always strikes last. The only exception is Noxious vapours vs Noxious vapours, which you should probably play as ASF vs ASF works, but needs a FAQ to clarify.

Lord Aries
05-06-2008, 04:12
If the people you play with try to rule that they don't strike last when charging... they are the worst rules interpreters I've ever heard of. I would suggest playing warhammer against adults, instead of elementary kids and you will find that reason wins over BS.



This thread should die... because NO ONE agrees that you ever get to strike first under any circumstances.

Kerill
05-06-2008, 04:55
Ahh, the internet, the only place where people can argue that always strikes last doesn't mean always strikes last but must mean something else.

Everything in B-t-b strikes last. This doesn't mean the herald strikes first though (important point). If your opponent charges you (or is a high elf) all models not in b-t-b with the nurgle herald strike first as normal. Against HE spears this would mean 2nd (and maybe 3rd rank) spearmen can attack before the herald. Also with a charge from a bretonnian lance where all models in the front rank are contacting the herald this means that the models that strike first are those in the second and rear ranks of the lance, then the herald and bearers, then the front rank bretonnians. Weird but its how it works.

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 05:37
Ahh, the internet, the only place where people can argue that always strikes last doesn't mean always strikes last but must mean something else.

Everything in B-t-b strikes last. This doesn't mean the herald strikes first though (important point). If your opponent charges you (or is a high elf) all models not in b-t-b with the nurgle herald strike first as normal. Against HE spears this would mean 2nd (and maybe 3rd rank) spearmen can attack before the herald. Also with a charge from a bretonnian lance where all models in the front rank are contacting the herald this means that the models that strike first are those in the second and rear ranks of the lance, then the herald and bearers, then the front rank bretonnians. Weird but its how it works.

Which would imply that DoW pikes would be the ideal solution.:cool:

SPYDER68
05-06-2008, 14:36
Thing is, the only other strike last in the game from great weapons, is negated bye charging, and they say "Always Strike Last" Just as Noxious Vapours. So its easy to see where there could be some confusion, unless you actually think GW can put rules in that dont ever contradict themselves. If that was the case we wouldnt have the problems of items that always wound on a 2+ and ones that you can never wound the target on better then a 3+

I for one say they go last, expecially since i use nurgle :P

Lord Aries
05-06-2008, 14:55
But great weapons say always strike last, EXCEPT when charging. If they just said ASL, then I could see the confusion or whatever. However ASL is just like it sounds... you go last... no exceptions unless the are specifically written.


Another way to think about the noxious vapours ability... is to think about like this. The Herald will ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS go first against anything touching his base.