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ReveredChaplainDrake
01-06-2008, 05:17
I've held the new Rulebook at long last, and after having many personal questions answered about it, and fortunately relieving my fears of True LoS for my Tyranids. (So what if he can shoot my Zoanthrope behind my Gaunts? He's gotta' kill the Gaunts, all of 'em, to stop me from taking objectives.)

Things I think will make a killing:

Space Marines: Assault Terminators

With Entanglement going away and Land Raider Crusaders being as absurdly-good as they are now, a Crusader can tow around 5 Assault Terminators, a Captain, and a Chaplain. And with the ability to kill models from anywhere in the unit in CC, this formation will clean up. Running also increases their utility without Land Raiders.

Space Marines: Hellfire Dreadnoughts

With the Vehicle Damage table being more forgiving this edition, Dreadnoughts with Lascannons and Missiles (or heck, just Lascannons and DCCWs) will be a mainstay of anti-tank in 5th edition. Dreads are also small models, as far as Vehicles go, so they can often hide from the enemy much easier than Land Raiders and Predators can. In fact, with True LoS, Dreads can shoot at large tanks over Rhinos! And Dreads are also immune to the vehicle rule for Assaulters always hitting Rear Armor. Then there's running, and the fact that a Hellfire is not very expensive for the virtually-indispensable role that it has.

Space Marines: Attack Bikes w/ Multi-Meltas

These are just going to be stupidly-good anti-tank next edition. They're highly mobile. They have a good armor save and 2 wounds per base. (Arguably better than a Land Speeder when you factor in that Speeders can be penetrated now.) And they're small enough models to not block one's own LoS.

Eldar: Guardians

For once, Guardians being absurdly poor in CC is finally working for them! Anybody charging measly little Ld8 Guardians will likely send them packing upon sheerly touching them. Of course the unit will never be the same again, Eldar's best units are their Aspect Warriors, not their Guardians. The whole point of this is that Eldar weapons that have really poor range (Spiders, Wraithguards, mass-Destroyer Farseer retinues, and even other Guardians) will be able to clean up with their counterattacks. Aspect-free Eldar lives!

Tyranids: Biovores

When I saw that all Indirect Ordnance scatters 2d6 inches, my heart sunk at first until I realized that none of my armies have that. By comparison, Biovores become slightly better because they get nailed less by enemy Indirect Fire, while Biovore spores linger after being fired, making Biovores spectacularly-accurate at Indirect Fire by comparison. (And IIRC, friendly Tyranids never set off Spore Mines, so there's no threat to the spores missing and landing on your Gaunts.) Throw in the Partial Hits = Full rule and they become absolutely amazing. There are plenty of LoS blockers next edition (hills, bunkers, solid walls, large rocks / trees...) and I think that Tyranid players will want at least one of these pieces to defend their Biovores. A clever player might even try to use massed Spore Mines to screen their Gaunts (though that would require an absurd amount of Spore Mines!).

Tyranids: Lictors

Yes yes, easy kill points, but they're Tyranids. What isn't easy kill points? Besides, a 2+ cover save with Running and probable ID immunity doesn't strike me as an "easy" kill by any stretch of the imagination, and you can rest assured that many Tyranid opponents will have more pressing things to shoot at than a Rubberlictor anyway. Meanwhile, Str6, Rending, and attacking the rear of any tank ensures that Lictors ought to lay waste to any tank that isn't a symmetrical-14. And that's when used alone!

Preferred Enemy's changes also list as a Lictor improvement, as well as turning Flesh Hooks into Plasma Grenades on I6 models, but the real evil thing about Lictors is what they do to Reserves. In 5th ed, you can hold Reserves (including Lictors) back, allowing Lictors to be used as pack hunters. Why you would do this is questionable, as their purpose seems to be combat supplements, but the fact that they can be used like this at all oughta' scare the daylights out of Tau and IG players!

The deepstrike mishaps are pretty fair, and are much less hazardous than what I've been hearing. 1/3 of the time is the only time you lose the Lictor for full points. 1/3 of the time, you get it thrown in a corner, but big deal. The Lictor still has to come down somewhere valid (in Area Terrain) and that's not going to be a very popular terrain feature next edition, meaning that you can control where the Lictor could land by controlling where the Area Terrain goes. The third option is the Lictor goes back in Reserves, which is the best part of all because he just comes down later.

Chaos: Possessed

Yes, the "useless" Possessed are here. Why? Because Scout now applies to Dedicated Transports. Yes, that's right, Scout applies to Rhinos, so Possessed in Rhinos are going to be incredibly quick and choppy Assault troops, ensuring that each one of their powers is actually good. (And really, there are few problems that a well-timed Lash can't fix.) A 5+ IV save, Str5, Fearless, and Daemonkin on the whole unit without any Champions or Icons lessens the paperwork on maintaining a Possessed unit. Just pick whatever casualty you want and they won't lose any of their powers. And even then, one Icon (though I suggest you model the Icon small; d*mn that True LoS...) will be hard to get at in a sizable unit. Their small size for their units won't be a major defect, as losing a combat with a Fearless unit makes you take wounds by the number you lost by, and with Possessed, that's probably not going to be a whole lot. (Even less should you get Feel No Pain.)

So, to offset most of the doomsayers concerning how 5th ed will screw everyone, what currently-nerfed units do you suspect will get buffed into competence by this new 5th edition?

FarseerInthalas
01-06-2008, 05:32
I think that eldar falcons are going to get even better, mostly because of holo fields. now, with vehicles being much harder to kill (i believe that a penetrating hit will destroy on a 5+ now, though i am not completely sure), you will have a 1 in 12 chance of being blown up by a penetrating hit. and that assumes that they penetrate you. they aren't currently nerfed at all, but will just get better.

Danny Internet
01-06-2008, 05:37
I think that eldar falcons are going to get even better, mostly because of holo fields. now, with vehicles being much harder to kill (i believe that a penetrating hit will destroy on a 5+ now, though i am not completely sure), you will have a 1 in 12 chance of being blown up by a penetrating hit. and that assumes that they penetrate you. they aren't currently nerfed at all, but will just get better.

You won't be able to destroy vehicles on glances anymore, however the skimmers moving fast rule is gone, so that should make it easier to take down a Falcon unless it moves over 12" to get the 5+ save (from what I've read on these forums).

zeqe
01-06-2008, 07:33
You won't be able to destroy vehicles on glances anymore, however the skimmers moving fast rule is gone, so that should make it easier to take down a Falcon unless it moves over 12" to get the 5+ save (from what I've read on these forums).

To counterbalance the loss of SMF skimmers are only destroyed by an immobilized result if they moved more than 12" (in which case they would get a 4+ cover save). I really think skimmers haven't been nerfed nearly as much as people on the internet would have you believe.

KingNova3000
01-06-2008, 07:45
Just quietly more and more units will be becoming a lot better. People are quick to diss 5th before even trying it out. People are going to be suprised.

IJW
01-06-2008, 11:13
In fact, with True LoS, Dreads can shoot at large tanks over Rhinos!
No change there, then... :angel:

Shooting past vehicles uses 'true' LoS in 4th ed.



Just pick whatever casualty you want and they won't lose any of their powers. And even then, one Icon (though I suggest you model the Icon small; d*mn that True LoS...)
Is an icon a body part? Nope, so it makes no difference to TLoS.

Nice summary, apart from those two.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-06-2008, 13:34
Is an icon a body part? Nope, so it makes no difference to TLoS. For Possessed, I was planning a conversion where the Icon actually comes out of his arm, so yes it technically would be a body part.

And how about Tyranids? Weapon-Symbiotes and long / tall tails are their bodies, technically. (Yet another nerf to the Venom Cannon...)

leo_neil316
01-06-2008, 13:42
Tau hammerheads.

Between skimming and the upgrade that makes them fire as it their fast they'll still be able to move and shoot pretty well.

And disruption pods will now give a 4+ cover save against anything fired from more than 12" away.

Danny Internet
01-06-2008, 13:44
To counterbalance the loss of SMF skimmers are only destroyed by an immobilized result if they moved more than 12" (in which case they would get a 4+ cover save). I really think skimmers haven't been nerfed nearly as much as people on the internet would have you believe.

I don't know about you, but I'll take being able to get penetrating hits over destroying on an immobilized result any day of the week.

Sarigar
01-06-2008, 14:59
War Walkers seem improved. 3 War Walkers w/ EML that can be held off table and flank. It creates the ability to really limit return fire while being able to critically hit weak parts of your opponent's formation.

Varath- Lord Impaler
01-06-2008, 15:05
My Heavy Mortars, 6 of them in my army.

Each is S6 Ap4 48" range Ordinance barrage.

All i need is one 'Hit' against a tank and its S6 +2D6 pick the highest against the rear armour (usually 10)

Bam!

Dead Man Walking
01-06-2008, 15:20
You have a 1 in 6 chance of getting scout on possessed and this roll must be made -after- deployment, which means you cant deploy the rhino of possessed if you want a shot at scouting off a table edge, so your taking a 1/6 chance to come on any table edge or you could just set down and hope you dont get scout.

Mandragola
01-06-2008, 15:25
I have a lot of reservations about this list to be honest. There are downsides to a lot of these units.




Space Marines: Assault Terminators

Expensive, non-scoring unit riding in another expensive non-scoring unit. Now that you can't consolidate into new assaults I think that spending about 750 points on a tank full of guys that will probably only get to do one assault is no good at all.


Space Marines: Hellfire Dreadnoughts

Yeah pretty good. I tend to prefer them with ccws but still, not bad at all.



Space Marines: Attack Bikes w/ Multi-MeltasGood, especially if ravenwing, apart from in annihilation scenarios. A 50 point kill point is a problem.

Bear in mind that AP1 shots are still no better at killing tanks in 5th than they are in 4th (with the exception of skimmers). Multi meltas will be nice to have, but they aren't exactly buffed.


Eldar: Guardians

Still unlikely to ever actually fire their suricats unless transported, and then only once. I quite like the idea of storm guardian units with 2 flamers and destructor with the new wound allocation rules for template weps (all at once, not one at a time).


Tyranids: Biovores

Tyranids: LictorsAs you say, easy KPs in both cases. They do both look pretty useful though. I'm not sure how good a unit will be if it's great some of the time and terrible some of the time.


Chaos: Possessed

You only get scouts 1 time in 6. The problem with these guys in 5th is that they aren't really better than zerkers, certainly not on a point for point basis, and they aren't scoring. I think chaos will struggle to get a lot of scoring units unless they spam lesser daemons, and those are useless the rest of the time. Posessed are certainly improved, but I doubt we will see loads of them.

Kirasu
01-06-2008, 15:31
I don't know about you, but I'll take being able to get penetrating hits over destroying on an immobilized result any day of the week.

On a glance in 4th you have a 33% chance to kill a skimmer moving over 6"

On a pen in 5th you have a ... 33% chance to kill a skimmer moving less than 12"

(Only real difference is with AP1 weapons, which isnt a result of pen or glance just the special rule of AP1)

how exactly does this make it any better? In addition you have a 0% chance to kill a skimmer with a glancing hit in 5th when you ALWAYS had a 33% chance before

Add in cover saves and you're going to get a lot of tougher gun ships. People will be very surprised when those "useless" tau and eldar skimmers rain hell on them because they counted them out heh. They may not be scoring but that doesnt mean they cant stop YOU from winning still

Levett
01-06-2008, 15:37
Erm? AP1 no longer "auto penetrates" when you cause a glancing hit. Instead, it gives you -1 on the glancing table instead of -2. So yes, you can destroy a skimmer on a glancing hit in 5th Edition.

Ravenheart
01-06-2008, 15:37
Bear in mind that AP1 shots are still no better at killing tanks in 5th than they are in 4th (with the exception of skimmers). Multi meltas will be nice to have, but they aren't exactly buffed.


Afaik, AP1 gives you a +1 on the damage chart. Plus an other +1 if you manage to penetrate the armor and yet another +1 against opentopped vehicles, which is pretty good.

Badger[Fr]
01-06-2008, 15:43
how exactly does this make it any better?
Glance only + Holofield = on a Glance, an awesome 3% chance to kill a moving Falcon in 4th Ed = Win.

Even with a re-rollable 4+ Cover Save, the Falcon is still easier to kill in 5th Ed (at least, with AP1 Weapons).



Add in cover saves and you're going to get a lot of tougher gun ships
Landships get tougher as well. In 4th ed, Skimmers such as Hammerheads or Falcons were much harder to kill than a Land Raider; hopefully, it's no longer the case.

Kirasu
01-06-2008, 15:46
as i stated AP1 is a special rule and I was speaking about pure glance and pen.. After playing Eldar for a very long time the amount of NON Ap1 shots vs my skimmers is astronomically higher than 12" meltas or the 2 vehicles that have multimeltas.. Hammerheads are usually the only common source

Vs a huge majority skimmers are HARDER to kill in 5th

Mandragola
01-06-2008, 17:34
Afaik, AP1 gives you a +1 on the damage chart. Plus an other +1 if you manage to penetrate the armor and yet another +1 against opentopped vehicles, which is pretty good.

Nearly right.

You get +1 for AP1 and +1 if open topped. There's no +1 for penetrating, only -2 for glancing.

However, and this is the important thing, the damage table is different in 5th. Instead of immobilised on a 3 and dead on a 4+, you are immobilised on a 4 and dead on a 5+.

So all that AP1 does is bring you back to the 4th edition damage table. You are not better off than you were in 4th. In fact, you are slightly worse off now that you don't get a penetrate if you equal the armour value, just a glance.

Obviously, there's already +1 against open topped vehicles in 4th so that's not a change either.

My point is that it's not that AP1 weapons have got better, but that other guns have got worse. That makes AP1 more valuable, certainly, but it doesn't mean that you are going to see improved performance compared to what you see now.]

Skimmers are going to change a lot I think. A hammerhead with disruption pod is actually a lot harder to kill in 5th. A 4+ save makes it twice as hard to kill or prevent from firing an dit will no-longer be destroyed if immobilised. Nice.

cowzrnomatoh
01-06-2008, 17:52
You guys do know.
If you played doubles. And your opponents were playing
Ravenwing AND Deathwing.
You pretty much screwed
Ravenwing have scout, So first turn your coming in from the side table edge and scout gives you the ability to move before the game, hence moving TWICE before you get to go. then they can pick off your units, then Deathwing comes in to hold objectives or whatever. Solid freaking army.

And another thing. Fast= your max speed is 18"
but add that with a falcon moving fast going to ram something.
+1 being a tank
+1 for every 3" moved
+1 for every armor (f) value above 10
add the turbo engine for falcon and your looking at a Str. 10 ramming hit.
and I believe you only take half that, or you add up there Str hit too.
like you hit them at str 10
but a rhino only hits you with a str 1
or something like that. I forgot

Ravenheart
01-06-2008, 18:14
You get +1 for AP1 and +1 if open topped. There's no +1 for penetrating, only -2 for glancing.

My point is that it's not that AP1 weapons have got better, but that other guns have got worse. That makes AP1 more valuable, certainly, but it doesn't mean that you are going to see improved performance compared to what you see now.

Ah yes, got it confused with Apocalypse or something.

Anyway, seems we wanted to make the same point.


On Topic: The LS Typhoon looks more usefull now, thanks to the new blast rules.
It has a range of 36" (HB) and 48" and can reroll scatter for his S5 template while staing out of harms way.

Sarigar
01-06-2008, 20:27
You guys do know.
If you played doubles. And your opponents were playing
Ravenwing AND Deathwing.
You pretty much screwed
Ravenwing have scout, So first turn your coming in from the side table edge and scout gives you the ability to move before the game, hence moving TWICE before you get to go. then they can pick off your units, then Deathwing comes in to hold objectives or whatever. Solid freaking army.

And another thing. Fast= your max speed is 18"
but add that with a falcon moving fast going to ram something.
+1 being a tank
+1 for every 3" moved
+1 for every armor (f) value above 10
add the turbo engine for falcon and your looking at a Str. 10 ramming hit.
and I believe you only take half that, or you add up there Str hit too.
like you hit them at str 10
but a rhino only hits you with a str 1
or something like that. I forgot

A couple problems. If you choose to flank with Ravenwing, they will be held in Reserve. This means the earliest they will even be on the table is turn 2. If you opt to start them on the table, then, they get the free Scout move before the game starts. It just won't work the way you described.

As far as the Falcon. Star Engines will simply not work with ramming. The FAQ is clear Star Engines are utelized in the shooting phase. Ramming is done in the movement phase.

Necrontyr
01-06-2008, 21:28
Seems to me we may also see more Ogryn in 5th edition. Especially with the powerfist nerf, now against Marines, you will probably only lose one model to the fist, after they have squished a few marines with their ripper guns.

Bloodknight
01-06-2008, 21:43
I doubt that. That one powerfist wound still sets you back 3 wounds in addition to those the other guys cause, striking before the Ogryns. A full tactical squad will therefore on average cause 5 wounds on an ogryn squad. To reliably get a draw, you would need 12 charging Ogryns on average - 36 attacks, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead (I did not factor in shooting, because the SM would do far more damage to the Ogryns than vice versa).
To win, you would need even more, but Ogryns max out at 10 models per squad and a squad of ten financially costs as much as two batallion boxes, so is probably uncommon.

This could work if Ogryns had 3 base attacks instead of 2. As it is, they can only beat up stuff that is sort of already dead anyway, in the magnitude of 3 Space Marines for a full Chimera or 4 for a squad of 10. Yeah, they are that bad, crunch the numbers...now if the Bonehead had a power weapon...

Dribble Joy
01-06-2008, 21:48
Grots.

3 points per model for a cover save for the lads and still a scoring troop unit.

Famder
01-06-2008, 22:07
Grots.

3 points per model for a cover save for the lads and still a scoring troop unit.

My thoughts exactly. Throw in a grot prod and you have a nice unit to take a charge and leave a unit out in the open for the Orkz behind to charge.

The_Outsider
01-06-2008, 22:19
DE grotesques - literally immune to 90% of bog standard weaponry in the game (it takes S6 guns to even hurt them). Take a cheap haemonculus (or if you actually want to use them in CC a dracon) and start walking.

They'll provide a huge shield for anything behind them and the grotesques themselves require (basically) anti tank weapons to be stopped.

Plasma cannon are gonna suck for them though.

Danny Internet
02-06-2008, 01:13
On a glance in 4th you have a 33% chance to kill a skimmer moving over 6"

On a pen in 5th you have a ... 33% chance to kill a skimmer moving less than 12"

how exactly does this make it any better?

Using a properly equipped Falcon as an example:

4th edition
Glancing hit:
75% shaken
14% weapon destroyed
11% vehicle destroyed

5th edition
Penetrating hit:
56% shaken
19% weapon destroyed
14% immobilized
11% vehicle destroyed

I don't know about you, but I'll take the latter over the former any day of the week.


In addition you have a 0% chance to kill a skimmer with a glancing hit in 5th when you ALWAYS had a 33% chance before


All vehicles have a 0% chance to be destroyed on a glancing hit, not just skimmers. We are talking about skimmers relative to other vehicles in 5h edition versus 4th.

graveaccomplice
02-06-2008, 01:26
Eldar Warwalker squadrons. They Outflank, and can still fire all weapons on the move. And don't forget the new squadron rules. They'll be more likely to move into position.

Mouldsta
02-06-2008, 01:27
Well the ones that immediately spring to mind;

Crisis suits with marker drones - with relentless they can now actually move and get the benefits.

Conscripts - stand them infront of your "real" infantry. Against a MEQ army your lasguns going through conscipts will give your opponent a 4+ cover, which they'll ignore in favour of their 3+ armour save. The return fire though, at AP5 that normally ignores your armour is suddenly stopped 50% of the time by a 4+ cover save. Just don't put them in front of heavy weapons teams.

Leman Russes with no sponsons - used as rolling cover, they're harder to kill, and the battlecannon is actually now more accurate on the move (2D6-3 instead of 2D6). You can't fire the sponsons anyway when firing the ordanance weapon, so you might as well not have them.

Kroot - 3+ cover in woods, upped to 2+ if hitting the ground, pretty good in combat (by cheap infantry standards). They'll be hard to shift off an objective near a wood.

Monolith - yeah you can hit it easier in combat (at worst 4+), but since you can't destroy it via glancing (unless AP1, and even then you need a 6), it can take indefinate weapon destroyed results and thus never be destroyed by being immobolised + all weapons destroyed, and it can use cover, this is going to be hard to shift.
Mine's going to hide near a bunker for a 3+ cover save. A big bunker.

Firaxin
02-06-2008, 01:40
What is this Relentless rule people keep mentioning?

Also, wouldn't moving skimmers still be destroyed by an immobilized result, meaning in 5th there's a 22% chance of killing a skimmer with a penetrating hit, according to Danny Internet?

Danny Internet
02-06-2008, 01:56
Also, wouldn't moving skimmers still be destroyed by an immobilized result, meaning in 5th there's a 22% chance of killing a skimmer with a penetrating hit, according to Danny Internet?

In 5th, skimmers are only destroyed upon an immobilized result if they are moving over 12" (as opposed to over 6" currently). If they do this, however, they gain a rumored 4+ or 5+ cover save, depending on the source.

Dribble Joy
02-06-2008, 02:03
4+ for moving over 12". So if you want to shoot, you won't get the save unless they are behind cover.

Relentless is the ability to move and count as stationary for shooting purposes. All vehicles have it, SaP gets it and a few other units.

While not that effective, meganobs will be better in 5th Ed. Additional attack for charging, the ability to run and no more entanglement/compulsory disembarks from penetrating for their obigitory transports.

.H.
02-06-2008, 02:09
It is most certainly a 4+ cover save for moving Flat Out, which would be at least 12'' or up to 24'' if it is Fast.

Dyrnwyn
02-06-2008, 02:28
Crisis suits with marker drones - with relentless they can now actually move and get the benefits.

Actually, the real nasty one is going to be Stealths with Marker Drones. The drones will get the stealth field for free and Markerlights let them operate on the limits of spotting range. On top of that, they can Infiltrate.

Firaxin
02-06-2008, 02:53
...How do we know crisis suits and stealth suits are going to get Relentless?

Starchild
02-06-2008, 03:20
Still unlikely to ever actually fire their suricats unless transported, and then only once. I quite like the idea of storm guardian units with 2 flamers and destructor with the new wound allocation rules for template weps (all at once, not one at a time).That's still better than not being able to shoot at all! Since consolidating into an assault is gone, Guardians will be handy for deterring assaults against other, more expensive units. Eldar gunlines will be more viable: Put the Avengers near the front, and the Guardians can hang back to help protect Dark Reapers, Support Weapons, etc.

Even at BS3, shuriken catapults are pretty good weapons at S4 and Assault 2. Too, Guardians will be scoring. Add a Warlock with embolden or enhance and you've got a solid support unit.

Dyrnwyn
02-06-2008, 03:24
...How do we know crisis suits and stealth suits are going to get Relentless?

The leaked rules listed Bikes and Jet-packers as Relentless. Granted, these rules may have changed, but the stores have preview copies at this point, so I imagine if they don't have Relentless, someone will be by presently to correct us. I'll be able to see for myself tomorrow.

TaintedSpam
02-06-2008, 03:47
I saw the new rulebook on Friday. Relentless is a USR that allows the unit to move and fire Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons as if they were stationary. In addition, you may assault as normal. Bikes, Monstrous Creatures, and JET pack units are automatically RELENTLESS.

ReveredChaplainDrake
02-06-2008, 14:00
I just thought of one:

Vyper Squads w/ Scatter Lasers & Shuricannons

I didn't pay too much attention to how Vehicles with Squads operate, but if you've got a Farseer to babysit these guys, you can cast Fortune and Guide on them (and thus the whole unit) and rip shots through Terrain. With AP5 and AP6 guns, most units will opt for their armor save anyway. The Fortune cast on the whole unit lets them re-roll their cover saves, meaning that the Vypers ought to be just fine in most cases, and will seemingly always get the benefits of Flat-Out movement while staying put, or even while moving up to 6".

This doesn't equate so well to Falcons because the amount of Dakka that Falcons can put out is far inferior to that caused by Vypers with their 7 shots per turn per Vyper while going "slow".

I can see a lot of units in the future opting for dakka-using units to sit behind terrain and chuck dice all game, claiming a 4+ cover save as vastly-superior. (Hello, Winged Tyranid Warriors w/ TLed Devourers...)

IJW
02-06-2008, 14:03
Vyper Squads w/ Scatter Lasers & Shuricannons
Same with War Walkers. :D

Hmm, how about 3 x War Walkers with EMLs? Six plasma missile templates all linked together are going to cause an awful lot of pain on horde armies with the new blast rules... :evilgrin:

Whitehorn
02-06-2008, 14:06
You won't be able to destroy vehicles on glances anymore, however the skimmers moving fast rule is gone, so that should make it easier to take down a Falcon unless it moves over 12" to get the 5+ save (from what I've read on these forums).

Did they remove the vehicle destroyed from stacking immobilised/weapon destroyed then?

Danny Internet
02-06-2008, 14:34
Did they remove the vehicle destroyed from stacking immobilised/weapon destroyed then?

Nope, this rule is still there. The kill a vehicle this way you'd need to destroy every weapon and immobilize it first though. So, versus a falcon, you'd need to have damage it at least 5 times.

Lorieth
02-06-2008, 14:52
Monolith - yeah you can hit it easier in combat (at worst 4+), but since you can't destroy it via glancing (unless AP1, and even then you need a 6), it can take indefinate weapon destroyed results

I'm pretty sure the weapon destroyed thing isn't true - didn't the FAQ sort that out? As I understand it, 6 "weapon destroyed" results removes all the D6 shots, and since that's the only targettable weapon another "weapon destroyed" means immobilised.

Personally I think anything with Stealth is going to be very useful, since this seems to be the "Cover Save Edition" :p. Scout/infiltrate are also much better with Flank March so we might see Karandras appearing more often, especially with an Autarch to help with the reserve rolls.

The_Outsider
02-06-2008, 17:20
I'm pretty sure the weapon destroyed thing isn't true - didn't the FAQ sort that out? As I understand it, 6 "weapon destroyed" results removes all the D6 shots, and since that's the only targettable weapon another "weapon destroyed" means immobilised.



Nope (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-11_Edition.pdf) they never fixed it. Thus the monolith is immune to accumlative damage.

Ravening Wh0re
02-06-2008, 19:27
I didn't pay too much attention to how Vehicles with Squads operate, but if you've got a Farseer to babysit these guys, you can cast Fortune and Guide on them (and thus the whole unit) and rip shots through Terrain. With AP5 and AP6 guns, most units will opt for their armor save anyway. The Fortune cast on the whole unit lets them re-roll their cover saves, meaning that the Vypers ought to be just fine in most cases, and will seemingly always get the benefits of Flat-Out movement while staying put, or even while moving up to 6".

I thought Fortune only allows you to reroll failed saves or cover saves? And that you can only fire if you moved 12" or less?
If that is the case, then you can either move 12" and fire (no cover save), OR move over 12" and don't get to fire.
So how does this work?
Conceal was the only one that gave auto cover saves, right?

Meriwether
02-06-2008, 19:55
I quite like the idea of storm guardian units with 2 flamers and destructor with the new wound allocation rules for template weps (all at once, not one at a time).

Can anyone confirm this? This load-out of storm guardians + a waveserpent is my favorite eldar unit, and if this is true (templates resolve all at once), they just got a heck of a lot better!


I thought Fortune only allows you to reroll failed saves or cover saves? And that you can only fire if you moved 12" or less?
If that is the case, then you can either move 12" and fire (no cover save), OR move over 12" and don't get to fire.
So how does this work?

Vehicles behind terrain get cover saves, and thus can re-roll them with fortune.

Meri

lethlis
02-06-2008, 21:23
Yea wound allocation is all at once, however it doesnt carry over. Example

An entire squad fires all its weapons at once and all wounds are resolved at the same time. The defending player gets to choose allocation. No model can be hit more than once until every model has taken a hit. If a model has special equipment then it is rolled for separately. Lets say you have a 6 las/plas squad with sergeant and you take 10 bolter wounds and 2 plasma shot wounds for a total of 12. So each model is going to take 2 hits. Now you get to choose which models take what hits. So most likely you would put the two plasma wounds on the regular guys. Now you roll for each model separately(models with the same war gear are all rolled for together) and remove casualties. wounds do not carry over, if your plasma gunner fails both his saves you dont remove another model. however this can mean that you lose special weapons and other such upgrades before regular troopers.(take that you tau bastards)

Mandragola
03-06-2008, 00:18
In the example above with the 2 plasma hits out of 12, you have some options.

You could put the plasma hits onto normal guys, and that will cause 2 normal guys to die from failed saves. Alternatively, you can put both plasma hits onto one special guy, who will only die once. Everyone else will still have to make 2 saves each of course.

This might be worth doing in late game if you need to keep a squad alive to claim an objective or something.

Marshal2Crusaders
03-06-2008, 17:02
Crusaders Squads in LRC are gonna be really tough, when supported by Hell-Fire Dreads and Bike Squads the are gonna tear through other armies.

Mouldsta
03-06-2008, 23:22
Found my most hated unit already; The Callidus Assassin.

Turns up next to your unit, hits them with flamer weapon. Then assaults you - as it's only one model it can easily be 6" away from characters. Does some stabbing doesn't die.

In your turn you can't move that unit, can't shoot that unit, and in the assault phase it jumps out, and you can no longer consolidate it back into combat.

Repeat in it's turn.

Because you have to counter charge first with IC's, and can't move through friendly models, your IC can be blocked from giving the assassin a good stabbing.

neophryte
03-06-2008, 23:25
Which is exactly what happened in 4th. The real thing that makes her nastier is the word in your ear to bunch your units and then getting hit with a blast that wounds every model it touches... expect to see lots of IG players with her and leman russ tanks.

cailus
04-06-2008, 00:45
Leman Russes with no sponsons - used as rolling cover, they're harder to kill, and the battlecannon is actually now more accurate on the move (2D6-3 instead of 2D6). You can't fire the sponsons anyway when firing the ordanance weapon, so you might as well not have them..

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I understand it, in 4th if you fire an Ordnance weapon on the move, for scatter you roll 2D6 and pick the highest.

Now you roll 2D6 and subtract your BS.

So that means your Leman Russ's maximum scatter went from 6 inches to 9 inches. Of course the minimum scatter went from 1 inch to 0 inches. So it's a bit of give and take.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 01:26
There is exactly no reason not to take sponsons on a Russ in 5th, because they act as extra wounds on the tank.

Weapon destroyed will be far more common than now because tanks cannot be killed by glancing hits (they will therefore take more hits in general and lose guns or get immobilised more often), and the best an AP - weapon, like the one the Warp Spiders have, can get is a "weapon destroyed" as their best result on a glance. Also, at 10 points, they are very cheap.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 01:49
Actually AP - is only a -1 on the chart so can still destroy a vehicle. The rest of the post's points are accurate though.

danscan
04-06-2008, 02:19
IG autocannons have now become the weapon of choice for me. High Strength seems to matter more then the low AP much anymore.

I am also looking at putting alot of Multilasers on those sentinals.

Warped Bob
04-06-2008, 07:05
The Eldar Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra. Hehehe... actualy using BS 7 and using an assault 4 rending weapon that can re-roll wounds and ignore cover. You can bet he's going to be popular

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 08:09
@Neophryte: I wrote "on a glance" - that is a -3 on the damage table with an AP - weapon. :)

Mandragola
04-06-2008, 10:15
I think that weapons like autocannons and multi-lasers are actually a fair amount worse in 5th.

In 4th edition these weapons are pretty good as you can use them in dual roles. They are pretty good both against infantry and vehicles, and not too expensive. However, they are badly affected by the new vehicle damage charts, which prevent them from killing a vehicle on a glance.

This is because a large proportion of the damaging hits they will do are only glances, and glances become way less good. Shooting an armour 12 target like a falcon a multi laser is about as good as using a missile launcher in 4th. Since both weapons can only glance anyway, you may as well have 3 shots glancing on a 6 instead of one shot glancing on a 4. Overal it's the same. In 5th, now that you can penetrate the falcon but glances can't destroy it, the missile launcher is better and the multi-laser is worse.

I think it will be better to have dedicated anti-tank weapons like lascannons and melta guns and dedicated anti-infantry weapons like heavy bolters and flamers, rather than trying to get weapons that can do both.

Cosmic_Girl
04-06-2008, 10:57
Hi guys,

Just a quick question regarding skimmers. Can I ask what the rules are regarding skimmers.

Firstly, what is it to hit them in combat and does this change according to their movement speed?

Secondly, do they get any defensive benefit when moving 6"-12" if so what is it? What about if they move more than 12"?

Thirdly, what about skimmers that are also "Fast" vehicles?

Lastly, how does cover benefit them?

Thanks in advance,

C-girl.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 11:08
Firstly, what is it to hit them in combat and does this change according to their movement speed?

Just like normal tanks. Skimmers are no exception to the normal to-hit procedure. That means for example that a monolith can be hit on 4+ at worst.



Secondly, do they get any defensive benefit when moving 6"-12" if so what is it? What about if they move more than 12"?

6-12 nothing, 4+ cover at over 12".



Thirdly, what about skimmers that are also "Fast" vehicles?

no exceptions. They follow the normal rules for vehicles. Fast vehicles can move up to 18".



Lastly, how does cover benefit them?


Just like normal tanks. You get a cover save that can be rolled to avoid inflicted damage results.

Nem
04-06-2008, 11:31
Just like normal tanks. Skimmers are no exception to the normal to-hit procedure. That means for example that a monolith can be hit on 4+ at worst.

So no hitting on a 6 against a skimmer in CC anymore?

Ouch.

Cosmic_Girl
04-06-2008, 11:31
Just like normal tanks. Skimmers are no exception to the normal to-hit procedure. That means for example that a monolith can be hit on 4+ at worst.

So what's the point in buying "Intercept" for swooping hawks? Does this mean that no matter how fast a vehicle is going even a falcon at top speed using star engines (36" a turn) can be hit on a 4+? Seems kinda dodgy to me.

Just to be clear:

AP1 = +1 on the damage table
Ordinance = +1
glancing = -2
AP- = -1

Is this correct and are there any other modifiers?

My other question is, how does rending work Vs armoured targets?

Thanks again,

C-girl.

Tom_ep
04-06-2008, 11:55
Rending gives an additional D3 strength to penetrate I believe.

Talking about effective units, I think My Blood Raven Space Marine Forces are going to raise hell until the new space marine codex gets released. I can give all my tacticals, devastators and whatnot infiltrate with the current chapter traits.
Even if they only come in sporadically (and somewhat erratically with the random roll) I can position them as fits the situation best, and even if they come in late it might be a potential game-winner.

I'm curious how everyone is going to play Marines with 5th until the new dex ties us over!

Famder
04-06-2008, 11:57
So what's the point in buying "Intercept" for swooping hawks? Does this mean that no matter how fast a vehicle is going even a falcon at top speed using star engines (36" a turn) can be hit on a 4+? Seems kinda dodgy to me.
You are misunderstanding. The rule is the same as it was for tank movement in 4th. Ie, no movement=auto-hit, 6"=hit on 4+, 12"+=hit on 6's. Your falcon moving that fast would be hit on 6+

Nem
04-06-2008, 12:04
You are misunderstanding. The rule is the same as it was for tank movement in 4th. Ie, no movement=auto-hit, 6"=hit on 4+, 12"+=hit on 6's. Your falcon moving that fast would be hit on 6+

But what about her falcon moving 8"? 4+ to hit? If so, then in 5th "Skimming" isn't any harder to hit than normal tanks?

In 4th didn't a skimmer always count as moving the distance that meant you need 6's to hit....even if they didn't actually move that far? I thought that was how the rule was worded.

Mandragola
04-06-2008, 12:27
But what about her falcon moving 8"? 4+ to hit? If so, then in 5th "Skimming" isn't any harder to hit than normal tanks.

A tank going up to 6" is hit on a 4+. Over 6" and it's a 6. A skimmer is not any harder to hit than any other vehicle.

However, a fast vehicle like a falcon can still fire some weapons while moving over 6". It's therefore able to defend itself quite well against CC by moving while still doing useful things.

Cosmic_Girl
04-06-2008, 12:36
Okay,

Well it means farseers with fortune are fantastic now and I think its a good thing that cover is useful for skimmers now, other than to outright block line of sight, it seems kind of a bad thing though, that they lowered the defensive weapon cutoff to strength 4. I guess that means that its better to only have 1 weapon system, rather than multiple lesser ones, like fire prisms and hammer heads, rather than falcons and predators.

C-girl.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 12:43
Skimmers do block LOS, as far as I understand. I could not find a rule against it like in 4th.

Ancient
04-06-2008, 13:14
I'm confused, if Indirect Ordnance and Ordnance fired while moving scatter 2D6 - BS, what about stationary Russes? Their Battle-cannons are not indirect, and if stationary are obviously,not moving. Are they now scatter D6 - BS?

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 13:23
Nope. Always 2D6-3 in case of a Russ.

The_Outsider
04-06-2008, 13:33
Skimmers do block LOS, as far as I understand. I could not find a rule against it like in 4th.

Thats suprisingly hideous really (at least for DE), we'll go back to seeing ghost ship forces with an empty raider leading the way with the nasties floating in the one behind it.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 14:18
Yeah, but it also kills the often abused Fish of Fury tactic with Firewarriors or Dire Avengers. But yes, basically the Raider Rush is back in town, just with the added benefit of people today having mastered the WWP tactic, too.

Meriwether
04-06-2008, 14:31
Thats suprisingly hideous really (at least for DE), we'll go back to seeing ghost ship forces with an empty raider leading the way with the nasties floating in the one behind it.

I don't think you will... Skimmers don't block LOS as some kind of magical area terrain, they block LOS as WYSIWYG terrain -- so you can shoot under, over, and around them. It would be tremendously difficult to position one raider so that another raider is entire obscured by it.

Meri

tlronin
04-06-2008, 14:43
I've read that with monstrous creatures you have to see over 50% of the model in order to shoot it. Perhaps it's the same with vehicles?

Meriwether
04-06-2008, 14:56
I've read that with monstrous creatures you have to see over 50% of the model in order to shoot it.

I haven't seen this anywhere. Rules reference, please?

Meri

Strey
04-06-2008, 15:20
I've read that with monstrous creatures you have to see over 50% of the model in order to shoot it. Perhaps it's the same with vehicles?

I think what he is refering to is that another thread was talking about troop screening and 4+ cover saves. Someone said that if a MC is 50% screened from LOS it gets the 4+ cover save. It doesn't prevent it from being shot at.

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 15:37
I've read that with monstrous creatures you have to see over 50% of the model in order to shoot it. Perhaps it's the same with vehicles?

no not true... You don't have to see over 50% because the rule for giving MC's cover is they have to be at least 50% obscured... Maybe that's what you're thinking of...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

neophryte
04-06-2008, 16:44
Okay,

Well it means farseers with fortune are fantastic now and I think its a good thing that cover is useful for skimmers now, other than to outright block line of sight, it seems kind of a bad thing though, that they lowered the defensive weapon cutoff to strength 4. I guess that means that its better to only have 1 weapon system, rather than multiple lesser ones, like fire prisms and hammer heads, rather than falcons and predators.

C-girl.

Yeah Fortuned falcons are rough to deal with - even worse are fortuned/guided warwalker squadrons. Walkers can fire all their weapons even if they move.

It is good to have a redundant weapon system as a backup in case your main is destroyed. Granted a Falcon comes with 2 so you may not want to add another, though there will probably be times in games when you already have the 4+ cover from the anti-tank because of terrain and want to just completely unload on something.

Marshal2Crusaders
04-06-2008, 18:04
For 90 points Dark Angel Predators with no Sponsons are a good deal considering the difficulty of blowing up tanks now, and they fact they can move 6 inches, hide a combat squad, and lend 2 high strength shots to the fight.

kokujin_atsuhara
04-06-2008, 18:18
I don't think you will... Skimmers don't block LOS as some kind of magical area terrain, they block LOS as WYSIWYG terrain -- so you can shoot under, over, and around them. It would be tremendously difficult to position one raider so that another raider is entire obscured by it.

Meri

Yes, but if one raider is the same size of another.
If you place them like a T, you can hide it well.

Meriwether
04-06-2008, 18:23
Have you tried it? Have you looked *under* the first raider, from the height of a miniature, using the new fancy-schmancy cross-hair laser doohickey? Have you looked *over* the first raider, in the middle, where you can clearly see the top of the second raider?

You can't hide it _at all_, much less well. Try it.

Meri

neophryte
04-06-2008, 18:28
Or put a model on a hill or on a higher level of ruins? Yes all that awesome looking terrain now has a game purpose! Ruins are especially good because you can often shoot over intervening terrain and not give cover saves - people will truly be finding high ground important.

DavicusPrime
04-06-2008, 18:40
Or put a model on a hill or on a higher level of ruins? Yes all that awesome looking terrain now has a game purpose! Ruins are especially good because you can often shoot over intervening terrain and not give cover saves - people will truly be finding high ground important.

It's about time too. High ground has always provided advantages in real world situations. I'm pleased to see some of those advantages showing up in the game mechanics.

You might not be able to hide a tank, but keeping it obscured and getting a save should be pretty easy.

-DavicusPrime

Meriwether
04-06-2008, 18:51
The funny thing is, higher ground and raider-blocking stated here has *always* worked in the 4th edition rules. Vehicles aren't area terrain, they don't block LOS as area terrain, and that means that if you're on a hill and/or are taller than a rhino (because you're a carnifex, for example) you can see right over a rhino to shoot the rhinos behind it. Rhinos cannot, and have never been able to, block LOS to Land Raiders.

People see this as a great big change -- it isn't. Most terrain isn't area terrain, and neither are models (whether vehicle models or not). And they never have been. Want proof? PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send you my treatise on this.

Meri

neophryte
04-06-2008, 19:18
Yeah, most people also played wrecked vehicles as area size 3 rather than real LOS which was contrary to the rules - however it is much clearer in this version of the rules.

Sons of Russ
04-06-2008, 21:12
SM Vindicators

Only one main weapon

Ordinance now more accurate when moving: 2d6-4 scatter

No reason not to keep moving and shooting that nice big template.

SM Whirlwinds

small enough to hide behind LOS blocking cover

short 12" min range allows for targetting flankers

will have ordinance that can ignore cover saves

Indirect shots will be more accurate: 2d6-4 scatter

The strongly rumour SM Ironclad Dread [AV13] will be an excellent unit to tie up powerfists and rending str4 or less.

Rending now +d3, meaning stealers can only glance on a 5+ on their rend rolls....

All minor slanneshi daemons [str 3] will be hopelessly tarpitted against them.....

Powerfists will need a 5+ to glance, 6+ to pen, combined with the fact the hidden fists get one less attack in 5th...

Dreadnoughts are immune to the 'vehicles hit on rear armour in assault' rule

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 21:23
Indirect fire does not deduct the BS if the target is out of LOS. It's simply 2D6.
Firing at targets in LOS deducts BS, so it is as accurate as direct fire. I know that my Basilisk is going to fire only indirectly now, since it has no disadvantage, but forces an ordnance pinning test in addition.

Bunnahabhain
05-06-2008, 00:13
6th edition ordnance rules.

If one player wishes to fire an ordnance weapon, they take the large blast template, and must throw it onto the table from a distance of 4 foot from their own side. If firing indirectly, then they must throw it from 8 foot, but may do so from any angle, as the shot goes over any cover in the way...

If the blast misses the table, it is a dud, and has no effect. If it lands, any models touched by the balst, or knocked over as it lands, are hit by the blast, and are resolved normally.

GW do seem determined to make ordnance totally inaccurate, so they might as well do it properly....

Rosicrucian
05-06-2008, 02:30
One unit I ran across was a Witch Hunters Chimera. With 2 Heavy Bolters, a Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter and Blessed Ammunition you get 6 S5 and 2 S4 shots that all ignore cover saves. Handy for taking out those Orks hanging out behind the grots. Its kinda hard to get though. You need an Inquisitor+Retinue or Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Personally I plan to take one for my Elite Inquisitor and use it to cart around some Sisters in game.

edit: Just realized Blessed Ammo is sisters vehicles only. Ah well, you can still get close to the same effect with a TL-Heavy Bolter + Storm Bolter Immolator.

blackroyal
05-06-2008, 02:48
GW do seem determined to make ordnance totally inaccurate, so they might as well do it properly....

I agree, its not like warriors of the 40K world have had practice using artillery. They should be grateful to hit the correct table.